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Black Fist
01-15-2001, 06:56 AM
I have recently come accross some article mentioning Zhao Bao Taiqiquan. Could anyone with experience or knowledge, explain to me this form of Taiqiquan and is it from chen style like Yang or is it later and what its characteristics ?

Thanks in advance.

dz
01-15-2001, 09:50 AM
Greetings,

I maybe am off topic with this reply. First,
I don't know anything about the style you
asked about, but the romanized translation
of Tai Chi Chuan should be Taijiquan,
not Taiqiquan since the "Chi" in TCC isn't
the same as the romanized "Qi" (as in Qigong).

Personally, I would be quite sceptical towards
anyone that teaches Taijiquan that doesn't
understand the basic meaning of the name.

I'm not judging the style or teacher, just
pointing out a wrong translation. Hope I didn't
cause too much confusion. :)

Regards,
Wai

[This message was edited by Wai on 01-16-01 at 03:08 AM.]

eightgates
01-15-2001, 03:46 PM
Hi Black Fist,

In the history as I learned it, a contemporary of Chen Changxin (Yang Luchan's teacher) named Chen Yuben reformulated the Lao Jia (Old Frame) to Xin Jia (New Frame - not to be confused with the present day usage of the term by modern Chen stylists for Chen Fake's post 1940's version of the routine). Chen Qingping, who learned this new frame, refined it further and it became known as the Xiao Jia (Small Frame) or Zhaobao Jia (Zhaobao Frame) after the village where he lived. The circles and movements of the form I learned are somewhat tighter and expression of fajing less obvious. I've seen videos of what is currently coming out of Zhaobao village, but it looks very different. I don't find this surprising or have a problem with it since there are many versions within all the various styles of Taijiquan. My grandmaster learned his Zhaobao form during the 1930's or 40's and what is coming out of Zhaobao may have been modified since that time just like the modifications to the Lao Jia, Chen Fake taught him.

For an excellent (and controversial) site on the various histories and styles of Taijiquan, see Peter Lim's site at
<A HREF="http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/index.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/index.htm</A>

Best wishes, :)
eightgate

davy
05-17-2001, 09:56 AM
I'm looking for somebody who has information about Zhao Bao Taiji...

Thanks

dingo
05-17-2001, 10:32 AM
Here are some links you might want to check out: http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg8.htm, and here: http://www.digidao.com/nzhaojia.htm and finally here: http://cronus.spaceports.com/~zhaobao/history.html. Hope that helps.

GLW
05-17-2001, 04:07 PM
1. Zhao Bao village is not that far from Chen Village. There was and always has been an intermingling of styles due to proximity. So it would not be surprising to find Chen Qingping's contemporaries doing similar things. However, the records kept in Chenjiagou are much more detailed than those in Zhao Bao.

2. There has been a rivalry between Chenjiagou and Zhao Bao for a long time. Rivalries tend to foster "we invented it...no we did..." arguments.

3. The one guy in California uses the Zhang Sanfeng myth, Wang Tsung Yueh, Jiang Fa...to support the origins of Zhao Bao style.

Zhang Sanfeng is pretty much a myth except for non-scholarly non-Chinese speaking people. You cna even trace where this myth got introduced into Taijiquan history and it was after the Yang family got into Taijiquan.

Wang is mentioned in places and there are treatises attributed to him but the proof of him is scant. This one is debatable.

Jiang Fa....mentioned in places but some say he taught Wang ...some that Wang taught him. Again, debatable.

It really boils down to who do you want to believe...Zhao Bao village or Chen...

However, according to Chen records, Chen Qingping married, went to Zhao Bao and was told by the Chen village NOT to teach the family art there. he was noted to have been secretive about teaching in some instances I have read and also known for emphasizing parts of Chen style that were not like everyone else...so it is quite possible that he did create Zhao Bao...and the people there claim creation.

It is even possible that both Zhao Bao and Chen have a similar root....and remotely possible that Zhao Bao created it. The propaganda they wish to put out is that their version was the original and that the PRC government kept the story from being told. This is actually not too true. Beginning in the 1950's Chen (and so Zhao Bao as well) were viewed as being "NOT Taijiquan" by many because it was so different from Yang, Wu, etc... There was a meeting on this and many wished to exclude Chen from discussion because it was "Not Taijiquan but Cannon Fist" This attitude continued until the late 1970s (end of the Cultural Revolution). Those of us who rmember that far back can relate to the fact that there were NO Chen style teachers in the west to speak of. In the US you had Yang and Wu styles (Many yang people...Guan Ping, Yang Chengfu, Cheng Man Ching) and you had people like Sophia Delza (student of Ma Yueliang) doing Wu. No Sun Wu/Hao, or Chen.

Then people 'discovered' Chen. Then came Sun in about 1990 (there may have been one or two who did it but not many) then Wu Hao got noticed again in the mid 90's (largely due to Jimmy Wong.)

So the history is all convoluted and full of propaganda and politics...regardless of who is talking.

Having seen Zhao Bao...I can say that to me it looks like modified Chen style...a bit softer with a bit more stance movement and a little less spiraling energy.

Now, seeing as how the styles that come from Chen: Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao and Sun, all display more softness, modified use of stances, and less spiraling energy, IMHO, the evolution from Chen tends to be in that direction. So, I surmise that Zhao Bao might have come from Chen because it follows that same pattern of softening. THIS PART is my opinion....but based upon at least a little bit of logic.

The real issue is whether or not it is Taijiquan...it is... so if you find a good teacher and like it...great. Taijiquan has enough diversity to offer something to many different people.

davy
05-17-2001, 04:23 PM
Thanks to you all:in fact, I did practice some time, but my form is not as good as it used to be so I'm looking for informations about practising the form................................

Felipe Bido
04-11-2002, 01:18 PM
Hey

Does anyone practices this style?. I was reading the history, but I couldn't find anything else. How is it like?



.

looking_up
04-11-2002, 01:51 PM
And is it related to Xiao Jia?

RAF
04-11-2002, 02:50 PM
Felipe:

Zhaobao, Hu Lei Jia and Xiao Jia, all seem to have overlapping posture but played with different flavors.

If you can get a copy of Adam Hsu's Hu Lei Jia (Thunderstyle) tape you can view both Adam's and a clip from the Village area. I also want to correct something here. Tom pointed out in another website and I think I gave the impression that Hu Lei Jia and Zhaobao were the same and THEY ARE NOT.

A friend of mine went to the village where Hu Lei Jia is played and filmed them and there is also a Zhaobao VCD (Jarek had copies of the VCD) of a master playiing it.

Posture-wise, I found it to be similiar to lao jia but the flavor and tempo, to me, is very different and I am not sure how fajing is expressed.

Also the film Roam about The Taiji World has some Zhao Bao demonstrations. Ted Mancuso's site has copies of this.

Relative to Chen's lao jia and xin jia (Chen Xiao Wang, 1988 performance) these offshoots all have seem to have something missing regarding power and fajing except for the woman in Roam about the Taiji World who does the xiao jia style. In the personal film, years later, she also plays a private performance and her power and fajing is obvious.

GLW
04-11-2002, 03:52 PM
Zhaobao villiage is relatively close to Chenjiagou (Chen village).

There is a disagreement between the folks in Zhaobao and Chen on the origin of Zhaobao and Chen style Taijiquan.

Zhaobao folks maintain that THEY created Taijiquan and that Chen Wanting learned from them and took it to Chenjiagou. This is contrary to the normal accepted version of Taijiquan history.

Chen folks maintain that Taijiquan originated in Chenjiagou and that via a marriage, it was transmitted to Zhaobao. Then for some reasons - either time or family secrets (told not to teach it all - but this may be false) or that the person who took Taijiquan to Zhaobao had his own interpretation of things that then proliferated to those who learned from him....

In any case, in form it resembles Chen greatly (lao jia a lot). What you think of it is truly a personal preference. For me, I prefer well done Chen over well done Zhaobao - but that is my personal preference.

Both are valid legitimate lineages and have a lot of value.

Sum Guye
04-12-2002, 03:19 PM
ask Tim Cartmell about Zhoa Boa... he teaches it to anyone who
is tough enough to get through the warm up excersies (I've learned the begining set.. but it'll be a while before I can do them all without collapsing at the end).

Tim also has an amazing story about a friend of ours who recently defended himself using a Zhao Boa movement he'd just learned (resulting in his attacker getting a broken jaw, a crushed petela and a fractured skull... I'm sure Tim can tell the facts better than I can).


I think you've been there before... it's the discussion board on www.shenwu.com.

Felipe Bido
04-12-2002, 05:35 PM
Thanks for the info, guys :)

Hey Sum Guye, I always read Tim's message board. His explanations are great.

"Tim also has an amazing story about a friend of ours who recently defended himself using a Zhao Boa movement he'd just learned (resulting in his attacker getting a broken jaw, a crushed petela and a fractured skull... I'm sure Tim can tell the facts better than I can). "

D'amn!...I feel sorry for the poor guy who got the beating. wow.
:eek:

Sum Guye
04-12-2002, 05:46 PM
the beating was well deserved.

(all that damage was caused by one backhand strike)

kungfu cowboy
04-12-2002, 06:44 PM
How did he crush his patella with a backhand to the head ? Did the guy fall on his knee? That doesn't count.;)

Sum Guye
04-12-2002, 09:46 PM
Would the attacker have shattered his knee without the backhanded fa-jing?


...in a street fight everything counts.


:p

Shaolin Master
04-15-2002, 01:09 AM
Zhao Bao Taijiquan is an excellent form of taijiquan.
There are 2 major schools of thought Xiao Jia and Da Jia, in addition Hu Lei Jia and Heh Shi (which eventually became Sun Style) are also sub branches. Xiao Jia is also referred to as Heh Style it consists of between 73 - 76 postures pending lineage.

Da Jia is that of our lineage, it consists of 108 postures, we practise at 2 speeds and 3 frames at the basic level (Zhong, Da and Xiao Jia). We also contain another 14 or so frames which are considered more advanced these include Hu Lei Jia, Gong Fu Jia, Chan Xu, Ling Luo Jia and many more.

There are many weapons in our taijiquan including Sword, staff, spear, broadsword, double broadsword, long handle axe, spring autumn knife, etc....

Our history maintains that the are was passed on by Jiang Fa and was propagated to Zhao Bao by Chen Qing Ping.
Previously the Chen Style histories were more commonly known because of the popularity of the texts and stories of Chen Wang Ting.

However recently many of our uncles and masters have provided texts and documents to support our taijiquan's place.

My Master Zhou had provided me with a copy of an old text that outlined our taijiquan many years ago. Its theory is excellent and comparable in combat and effectiveness to any other taijiquan.

Regards,

red_fists
04-15-2002, 01:15 AM
Shaolin Master.

Are you aware of any Zha Bao Instructors in the greater Tokyo area in Japan?

Shaolin Master
09-17-2002, 04:37 AM
Just to give some information about Zhao Bao Taijiquan for those uninitiated (These are translated from Chinese):

Chen Qingping (1795-1868), the seventh generation of Zhaobao style Taijiquan and a native of Zhaobao, was a gifted and talented individual because he was well versed in both literary arts and martial arts.

He was also a key person in the history of Taijiquan. He not only achieved a high level in the taijiquan but was also good at summing up its concepts, theories and practical methodolgies. Furthermore, he contributed to its theory in a great way.
He taught students in accordance with their aptitude, imparting on them dailijia, lingluojia, or tengnuojia separately.

Yang Lu-Ch'an, the founder of Yang style Taijiquan, in the preface of the book Yang-Style Taijiquansays:

.I learned Taijiquan from Chen Changxing in Chenjiagou Village, but I mastered it from Chen Qingping in Zhaobao Town.

From the Yang Style, the Wu (Ng) Style evolved and propagated in modern times by well known masters such as Ma Yueh Liang and his wife (the daughter of the founder).

Wu Yuxiang, the founder of Wu (Mo) style Taijiquan, learned the arts and theory of Taijiquan from Zhao Bao Master Chen QingPing and received from him a book,Taiji Manual,written by Wang Zongyue.

Based on the Taiji Manual,Wu Yuxiang initiated Wu style Taijiquan. Sun Style then evolved from the Wu Style.

Chen Qingping also taught his skills to Jingyang (his son Chen), Zhang Yingchang, He Zhaoyuan, Niu Fahu, Li Jingyan, Li Zhuozhi, Ren Changchun, and Zhang Jingzhi, etc. All of them were the eighth generation of Zhaobao Taijiquan.

Among them, He Zhaoyuan was the best, who had been the guard of Li Tangjie, a minister in the cabinet in the Qing Dynasty. For this, he became a high martial officer. He developed and in novated Zhaobao style Taijiquan: thus it was referred to as He" style Taijiquan. Hu Lei Jia is another branch of Zhao Bao Taijiquan.

In China, there are many forms of Taijiquan : Li, Hong, YueMen, BaguaTaiji, Wudang Taiji, San Feng Taiji, etc.......with alot more research documents being founded continuously...

Unfortunately only Chen family manuals were used in the days after the CRn, recently alot of documents kept within families have been released to the benefit of historians and the the martial arts afficionados of the world.

Regards,
Wu Chan Long
NanChang, JiangXi Prov, PRC

Shaolin Master
09-18-2002, 11:08 PM
Mi Xi (disciple of Lao Zi) after many generations passed the Taiji concepts through generations to Zhang Sanfeng, and after sev-eral generations to Wang Linzhen, of Taigu County, Shanxi Prov. Wang passed his skills to Jiang Fa of Wenxian County, Henan Province. Jiang Fa then passed it on to Zhaobao village.
Jiang Fa, 1st generation of Zhaobao Taijiquan, was born in the 2nd year of the reign of Wanii in the Ming Dynasty. He lived in a small village named Xiaoliu Village, several kilometers from Zhaobao Village.
When he was 22 years old and competed with others, he happened to be noticed by an old man who occassionally stayed at an inn in Zhaobao VIllage. The old man had a talk with others about the competition and said:Between them, the young man wearing the purple cotton gown (e.g., Jiang Fa) has a rather good, natural gift.
The innkeeper passed on the old man's comment to Jiang Fa. Hearing that, Jiang Fa knew that the old man must be a master with advanced skills.
Then he asked the innkeeper to call on the old man with him and expressed to him that he hoped to formally acknowledge him as his master, so as to learn martial arts from him.
The old man(who was Wang Linzhen), refused him, giving an excuse that he was too busy with his business. However, he agreed to teach him at last after Jiang Fa's continuous plea.
The next day, Mr. Wang was leaving for Zheng Zhou to inspect how his businesses were going. Jiang Fa saw his master off at Sishui Ferry. Before saying goodbye, they made an agreement for Mr. Wang to come back to find Jiang and take him to Shanxi Province to teach him Taijiquan.
On the given day, Jiang went to the ferry to meet his master, and Mr. Wang arrived on time. Jiang went back home with his master. After some prepara-tions were made, he went to his mas-ter's hometown in Shanxi Province and learned Taijiquan from him for seven years. A good relationship was established between them.
Master Wang told Jiang Fa: "I learned this kind of martial skill from a wandering Taoist priest. He told me that this kind of boxing had a long history, and there is a direction put in verse to be as evidence for it.
It says: 'Taiji comes from Tian Di (the Earth and Heaven); initiated by Laozi and passed on by his disciples; . . . after teaching you the skill, you can become immortal.' Now I have taught you the special skills and told you the secret methods. You should teach it only to selected individuals, but never to casual students.

Esteban
09-19-2002, 06:56 AM
Hi SM,

is this the standard history of Zhaobao? I mean, are there other histories that are not the same? I am copying what you write, and I'd like to put it into a context.

Tia,
Esteban

RAF
09-19-2002, 07:10 AM
Esteban:

If you go back last year or so to the Tai Chi Magazine there was a two part series laying Zhaobao's system and their take on history.

Looks like more Village Squabbles to me.

GLW
09-19-2002, 09:05 AM
I agree with RAF...

Chen Village and Zhao bao have argued for years about the origins. In the past, all records and dutiful historians that looked into it ended up agreeing with Chenjiagou. This, obviously, did not make Zhaobao happy.

In recent years, there have been fewer really top notch historians working on this. Many seem content to either write down legends and then look for 'facts' to support them or worse yet, attempt to make a name for themselves by rewriting history or refuting more well established sources that DID do a large amount of in depth research.

The keys for BS detection : when they start throwing around Zhang Sangfeng.... No proof that such a person ever existed.

Jiang Fa - so many people in different eras have laid claim to this person as either a teacher or a student.

Books found in salt shops..., scrolls, etc.... Old Taoist hermits, take your pick.

At this point, if you go back beyond about 400 years, all you get is myth and legend....and those attempting to do it have consistently shown themselves to usually be much less than objective.

RAF
09-19-2002, 12:32 PM
GLW:

I pulled an earlier post because I really don't want to see another flame war. My experience with Hu Lei Jia (Hu Long Jia) and private footage (1990) from Zhaobao Village area leads me to conclude that it came from Chen system but I am in no position to offer anything but an opinion.

Wujidude:

There was also a historian Xu Zhen who also corroborated some of Tang Hao's "speculation". I guess we in the West only got Henning, Wile, and Kang Gewu. What the heck!

However, we do know that Yang Lu Chan learned in the Chen Village and there is nothing else solid to speculate regarding on what Yang Lu Chan did to change it. Everything about what he did is speculation. I think the safest and most sound conclusion is that Yang's taijiquan is derived from Chen's taijiquan.

Interestingly, one of my martial arts associates thinks that much of the Yang Cheng Fu form is closer to the original Chen's taiji than the current Chen versions on the market. So rather than arguing why Yang's doesn't look like Chen's, it goes to an opposite observation: Why don't the current Chen forms look more like the Yang forms? Assuming that the Yang form is more closer to the original Chen taijiquan. Interesting way to look at it.

Let me end on this factual note:

"Martial arts use of Yin-Yang theory can be traced back as far as the story of the Maiden of Yue in the Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, a book written around 100 C.E. about the history of the ancient state of Yue (fifth century B.C.E.)." Henning, "The Origin of the Name "Taijiquan", Taiji Journal Winter 2001.

IMHO, taijiquan is not as special as we have made it to be. Many Chinese martial arts system employ yin/yang theory, breathing (neigong, qi-gong), etc, etc. Its a good system but not necessarily superior to other systems.

Shaolin Master
09-19-2002, 11:26 PM
The History is mainly from Du Yuan Hua ...who wrote "Authentic Taijiquan" early this century.

To put it into context, to revise Post 1 :

Yang Lu Chan claims in his own writings that although he learned TJQ in Chen village he mastered it in Zhao Bao, this means something must have been different or gained there for him to have mastered it there : If one considers how Yang flows and chen flows the differences are easily visible. Zhao Bao shares the shape like chen but only the execution like Chen in a different frame training method for the sake of developing certain skills.

Wu Yu Xiang even acknowledges the Zhao Bao influence.

I am not doing anything but elaborating on our families TJQ and its histories, stories etc... as they are not properly known as yet.

Chen Style is said to have not only incorporated Shaolin into their methods but even Xin Yi Liu He Quan. Some say that it was because their understanding was incomplete of TJѣ

ͣ塡󡡣󡡣٣硡̣ ã磮

RAF
09-20-2002, 04:27 AM
Interesting, although I have yet to hear of any direct writings from Yang Lu Chan. Never seen them in quoted articles. Are you sure Yang Lu Chan was literate? About 90% of the Chinese population at that time was illiterate.

However, the very first level of Chen training is playing the form (lao jia, Chen Yenxi) in the same tempo and slowness as Yang's taijiquan and without fajing expression, except for kicks, and Fu Zhong Wen clearly documents that even Yang Cheng Fu in his earlier days also expressed his kicks with fajing expression.

My own speculation (hypothesis) is that there is a link to Emperor Song's Tai Zu Quan regarding slowness in training and breathing and that is what influenced the training level in Chen's taiji.

However, as pointed in Fu Zhong Wen's own history of Yang style, Yang Lu Chan's flavor is very much in line with Chen style flavor. Public forms were changed and it appears that Yang Cheng Fu even furher reduced expressions of fajing. So the tempo that the Zhao Bao claim was given to Yang Lu Chan's form is not what he played, if you believe Fu Zhong Wen. That is, Yang style tempo of today is a relatively new invention: Yang Cheng Fu's 3rd iteration around the 1930s.

I think the public form tempo of the Yang style is simply the first training level, kind of like moving stance work but this is purely conjecture on my part. (in all the Northern Chinese styles I have studied so far, there is always some type of training level with a form that focuses primarily on stance and alignment trainng. Even in bagua I have seen the use of static 8 mother palms in the standing post horse stance used as qi and structure training).

As far as pao chuei, Fu Zhong Wen son does single moving postures with fajing expression, taught similar to what Jou Tsung Hwa taugh in the early 1980s. This correspondences to Chen's 2nd level and although it is not a form, I find single moving postures in just about every old training style of Northern Chinese martial arts. Link up the single moving postures and you got a pao chuei form. It is my undocumented understanding, that forms are modern luxary and single moving training was key to training troops and individuals in the older days. It naturally fed into two man applications.

The writings of the ZhaoBao holders, to my knowledge, have yet to be evaluated by the taiji community at large and that is very important in assessing the validity of their claims.

If and that is a big IF, we believe the stories, Yang Lu Chan went seeking out challenges to prove his martial arts prowess. And yes, he went seeking only to return to the Chen Village for more training (12 to 18 years if you believe the stories).. Even the Yang lineage holders accept this (perhaps the Zhang Man Qing holders of Taiwan do not,).

I have yet hear of any Yang lineage holder ever espousing this linkage to ZhaoBao, but if true, would lead to some interesting changes. But its troubling to hear that the ZhaoBao's lineage is founded on assertions of people who most likely never existed or simply existed in myth.

Until then, its still Village Squabbles for me and ZhaoBao, Hu Lei Jia all come from Chen's.

The burden of proof lies with ZhaoBao researchers to test their claims to peer review and documentation outside their own Village. Its their job to put out the documentation and have the historical community sort it out.

Their reliance on Zhang Sang Feng as a founder further convinces me that they want their share in the Taiji market. Who can blame them, right?

ZhaoBao and Hu Lei Jia stand in their own right as martial arts systems regardless of where they came from or who formed them.

I wouldn't get to caught up in using its oral history as a marketing ploy to assert the "superiority" of the ZhaoBao system. Don't fall for the crass commercialization of martial arts and learn from Temple at Songshan.

RAF
09-20-2002, 08:48 AM
Wujidude:

Thanks for the info and great post. Actually whether Chen Wangting did or did not invent taijiquan is not as interesting as the ad hoc speculation of what Yang Lu Chan did to what he learned from Chen Changxing. Everyone seems to pile on with why their Yang's taiji is so different and so superior to Chen's and I just can't see it.

My Yang's version (Li Jing Lin-->Zhang Xiang Wu-->Liu Yun Qiao) is no better or worse than most but we do have a tornado kick, a closing posture similar to Chen's, and a interesting Dan Bian which follows our own Chen's version. This version of dan bian involves a block, and a collapsing palm strike (ta zhang) to the heart. My own Chen's version takes most of its frame from Du Yu Ze (Chen Yenxi), hu lei jia (Liu's relationship to a zhao bao master, Wang ShuShen and Du Yu Ze) and Fake's form (1930s, Wang Meng Bi, which he called xiao jia and Tony really liked because of its simplicity, small frame but low postures) and Liu's exchange with Fake in 1928, Beijing).

So I guess some would refer to me as a Baastaaardyzed (W)hore but I have long given up on purity and virginity and I am an outcast in most Chen circles, except one of Ma Hong's formal students liked my form.

However, Liu's arrangement of the 3 levels of abstractions in Chen's was done in the 1970s, long before the commercialization and popularization of Chen's. It was done as an honest attempt to help preserve a great martial art. He also didn't believe modern practitioners would have enough time to really dedicate to the traditonal long forms and abstractions would help give them a taste and maybe encouragement to continue deeper into the system.

Interestingly, our 3rd level of Chen's abstraction begins with snap front kick and then Buddha pound mortar and I saw Feng Zhiqiang perform this opening in his younger years (on film). This is what I originally went to Tony Yang for in 1988 and is what I have practice and know best in his system. You can guess, long before my computer arrived, I spent a lot of years looking, reading and focusing in the taijiquan side of the Wu Tang. (from previous posts you know most of my time is now taken up in bagua but I never forget my first love and visit her often).

As was indicated in a PM, one of Feng Zhiqiang's formal students also practiced baji, which I personally is a great fit (basic training) with Chen's taiji (Xing Yi also seems to be a good fit--the basic training complements each other).

So I really appreciate the information you add. I also have seen some of the Zhaobao style and would like to learn more (I have one of the Zhaobao tapes of a master given to me as a gift. Its interesting but they played Western classical music in its background and it drives me nutz). The 1990 private footage was given to me by someone who visited the Village and its also interesting.

So, I am not here to flame Zhaobao style or any teacher.

Thank you too Shaolin Master.

GLW
09-20-2002, 09:17 AM
Some interesting notes here...

Some comments:

Tang Hao was NOT exactly a PRC hack. He was researching the origins and history of Taijiquan way before the existence of the PRC government.

While NOT all of his conculsions are correct, he is truly important because he was the first person to look into this stuff and NOT accept the verbal history and the "Because my teacher said so" and the "Well everyone KNOWS this to be the truth" as fact and actually look beyond that for supporting records. That he may or may not have been fooled by hucksters in believing a document or two were legit is not surprising. He also bought himself a load of threats and enemies because he debunked a number of closely held myths.

He is also important in being a mentor to people like Gu Luxin. Gu personally attributed some of his beginning work and interests to Tang Hao's influences. (Not to mention that Tang Hao was a good calligraphy teacher ...but that is another story).

As for the Yang Luchan writings...I find that highly suspect. Yang was from a poor family. Although some of the history stories have been changed...the original line ...NOT often repeated by the Yang family due to some level of embarrassment due to their humble beginnings.... was that Yang was SOLD as an indentured servant to the Chen family. At that time, this was QUITE common. A poor family would secure a position for their child with a well off family as a servant. The family would get some money to help them live and the child would be taken care of by the rich family as a servant....but would only be set free from the bond if the money was paid back. This indenturing was also seen in the US with many immigrants paying for their passage to New York this way. Problem is that it is VERY hard to make and save enough money to pay the bond...so the servant becomes a servant for life....and that translates as legal slavery.

Anyway, no one would spend time teaching a servant to read and write. Records of Yang's sons are sparce but it has been noted by many sources that Yang Chengfu was illiterate...smart and talented...but not educated.

It is extremely unlikely that a family where the parents are literate would produce a son that is not... So, logically speaking, it is not likely that Yang Luchan was literate. Not likely that an illiterate man would end up with literate sons unless he worked at it...and the relationship between Yang Luchan and his sons has been noted as 'harsh'...and Yang Chengfu has been noted as illiterate...so....

I doubt that the writings are personally from Yang Luchan.

Now, this does NOT mean that he could not have transmitted the information orally to a literate person, friend, or student....but the family would have records of this.

Fu Zhongwen's early work mention many of thes items about Yang Luchan and such...but in later editions, the story has been edited and made to make the Yang family look better off. Personally, I feel that starting from such a point and rising to a level makes you even MORE respectable....but that is my take.

GLW
09-20-2002, 01:21 PM
Actually, we are not that far apart. I am simply maintaining that pople liike Tang Hao, byt the very fact that they attempted to bring a method to looking into the background, deserve a bit of thanks.

As for his political leanings, I can tell you that EVERY college level history class I ever had...and political science and even psychology were infiltrated with the professor's political viewpoints. It made for some interesting classes when you had a profssor that was a socialist teaching with an extreme my country right or wrong type... But, you did learn to read between the lines and ask WHY would someone draw a particular conclusion.

Never met an historian who got it anywhere near all correct....

By 400 years, I am saying back to about 400 years you can say that Chenjiagou did their stuff. you can also say that Yang learned from who...and all.

As for WHO really created it, where it came from and such...prior to that you can't say much of anything. Even the records much older tha 150 years begin to be very very suspect in all things.

We can definitely say, though, that many of the versions of history are less than believable... I mean Zhang Sanfeng...who buys that one? :)

History in all its forms is purely revisionist. US history from one professor to another is different. Even accounts of the whats and whys of things within my lifetime have been altered by many. So, I find that you have to look at it with a very broad brush...and see patterns but hold nothing too dear.

To actually have to admit that one doesn't have the foggiest notion...that is indeed scary to a lot of people.

Walter Joyce
09-20-2002, 02:05 PM
And believe it or not, lawyers are trained in objective thought, it is critical to success. But like all humans, including historians, we still carry our biases with us, both personal and client related.

RAF
09-20-2002, 02:14 PM
What's nice to know is that human nature is a constant: Even the great masters and their students of the past squabbled over lineage, forms, and "Truth".

"My, oh my, you mean my martial arts won't let me stand above this fray??? I can't transcend my humaness! Dahhmn" (tongue and cheek).


Imagine if they had computers and a kungfu forum.
Where would we be?:rolleyes:

dedalus
09-20-2002, 07:17 PM
Wujidude,

Those Michuan clips were *very* interesting. The old jian form was certainly very different from other taiji sword forms I've seen (I thought it looked quite powerful), and I hadn't considered the similarity between Fishes in Eight and Fair Lady prior to seeing the solo clip. The AYMTA site is also very informative.

If its not too much of a tangent, could some of you (RAF? GLW? Wuji?) discuss your understanding of this tradition?

Cheers.

GLW
09-20-2002, 09:28 PM
RAF :
on rereading your post a way back...I tend to agree with your opinion about Zhaobao and Chen...but again, other than sources that we have both mentioned, I don't have anything more than an opinion.

dedalus:
As for the question about a tradition...I am not sure what the question is.... Please be more specific.

dedalus
09-21-2002, 02:25 AM
As the AYMTA articles indicate, there hasn't been much attention paid to the Michuan tradition until quite recently. I'm somewhat curious about whether the history offered by the lineage holders is corroborated by other sources (although I guess that's bound to be difficult with a secret tradition).

One thing I found curious was the fact that Yang Shao-Hou was not mentioned at all in the formal account of training in the Yang household under Yang Jien Hou. There is an explanation offered as to why Cheng Fu did not receive the michuan transmission, but what about his brother?

It is quite possible that this mystery will be resolved by someone pointing out my misunderstanding of Yang history. So far this thread has been most educational ;)

RAF
09-21-2002, 04:50 AM
I actually don't have much of an opinion at this point. It caught me off guard, although I do know someone from Taiwan who claims to practice a Yang Jian Hou lineage form but doesn't call it michuan.

I am generally very skeptical about those claiming a secret transmission (for example, my own line also claims Song Wei Yi learned directly from Yang Lu Chan but as I pointed out, Yang Lu Chan died when Song Wei Yi was 14 and I don't believe it).

I may not have read enough on the websites, but I would like to know what it is about the "secret" transmission that makes it secret. I saw one quote about the claim being: "We are not saying the secret transmission is superior to the public form." and my question is why all the hype? Look at how many claim to have secret or original forms? It gets to be a bit much.

None of this is to be read as a flame (I think some of my posts are initially read as being antagonistic but that's how we do it in the old Halls of Academe) but I would be more interested in someone from that group laying out a comparison of the secret transmission and the public transmission. What's missing?

As far as secret transmissions go there is some truth to that even though I said its a bit much. I read secret transmission as complete system transmissions.

Differences in forms mean little as I personally believe that "Masters" frequently change forms at various intervals over their life. Personal experience in another system holds true and it often leads to big political debates as to who has the "authentic" transmission and who is right.

I am more interested in what auxillary exercises did they or others learn. Personal experience in taijiquan of a big name master who often holds back vital training information in public seminars and teaches it to a few select students privately. I understand why this is done, but this is what will eventually kill what I call traditional martial arts. I don't know how you resolve this paradox in the world of commercialization and politics but if it isn't done, the traditional arts of China will die and forms will become more like a 60s hippie dance (remember Easy Rider).

I am somewhat shocked (in a good sense) at the size of this group and the fact that they do not promote their tapes in a more commercial magazine. I think Robert Smith wrote of their teacher and concluded, although good, his skills paled in comparision to Zheng Man Qing (a bit of a shot wrapped in a )political).

Their sword is interesting and resembles in flavor what we play as a taiji sword. We tend to use a lot of twist stance postions and one legged thrusts (which has been criticized by some Yang taiji purists I exchanged with, and is okay with me). However, I have yet to find a source documenting how and when the Yang Jian was introduced into the Yang taiji lineage (I don't believe Yang Lu Chan played a jian form, simply spear and dao and I don't believe the Chen family had a jian form until 1920s. Never heard of Chen Fake playing a jian form but his daughter,s routine was given in the old Chen Journal),

Its early morning here and I see I am drifting from your initial question.

I would like to read and see more about michuan and like to know specifically what makes their form different from public forms of taiji. There are a lot of "Village Squabbles" out there and I don't know how all of those claiming authentic, original, or secret forms can square this with each other.

Having said that about the form, I am less interested (not disinterested) in forms as I am in learnng about their auxillary training methods So I would love them to lay out their system but I guess if you did that what would be secret? LOL.

So I say, more info, more writing and less hiding.

PS. I am increasingly becoming skeptical about what Yang Lu Chan said or did. Seems there is a lot of embellishment going on without some solid anchoring.

GLW
09-21-2002, 09:12 AM
RAF - different lineage...similar feelings :)

I agree with a lot of what he wrote.

In my experience, it seems that just about every 'Strange' version of Taijiquan about 5 or so years ago tied their lineage to Yang Banhao. Given that he was reputed to have only taught about 4 people, I guess many folks have begun doing the exponential math and moved away from this claim. Since not much is known of the Yang offspring that died 'early', I would guess that a number of people will also tie their lineage that way.

Do NOT misunderstnad me. I am not flaming or insulting people. What they do may very well be legit and could even be from the lineage they claim...I just find it questionable.

Then you have a half dozen or more factions claiming that THEY teach what Yang Luchan did while his own family lineage does not. While I guess that IS possible, it is also highly unlikely. What those folks do may be well and good and may be legit Taijiquan...but the lineage they crow about is still questionable.

There are only so many ways to move a human body. There are core principles in Taijiquan. As long as a method does not violate the core principles and move the body in a damaging way, it is valid...then you have to figure out if it works...and that is a different question.

I have seen quite a number of 'Secret' Yang forms. To date, none have ben anything more than a different routine...and MAYBE they added a bit of fajing. Also, in many cases, the teachers teaching those secret forms were using them to get studnets to come to them, pay more money, or get some recognition in a magazine or such.

While this is not wrong per se...it does not make the 'Secret' forms a big deal.

It also does not take into account that MANY teachers teach according to a students physical strengths and abilities. So, if you have 10 students form one teacher learn the same routine, you will get 10 variations....and ONE may actually be like the teacher's. You also may have a teacher who teaches a tall student one way and a short one another....When they go off and teach, they may have a 'Secret' form that only they learned - for that reason. And after a generation or two, the methods they and theirs teach is distinctly different from the original.

No big thing...as long as all of the parts are there. Also, there is a very big difference between a teacher teaching a student to be a teacher. teaching them to be able to do the art, and teaching them to be their successor. There is also a difference between being a student and being Tudi (Disciple). So, many will claim to be one thing but how many Tudi's does one teacher have?

Bottom line : if you get value from it...great...but keep an open mind...at least I TRY to until I see some folks do things that is just simply NOT Taijiquan...

Training for use and flow...well, to soften, you first have to go through the hard part....you can'g get SONG until you work the legs and body to handle it. It is so with just about everything. The hardest lesson it seems to learn is to complete the movement.

RAF
09-21-2002, 11:02 AM
GLW reminded me of something I forgot: Instructing students v. tudi (disciple) or preparing them to teach.

Most students receive an incomplete system but NOTE CARFEULLY, that does not mean what they learn is wrong or inferior.

I will divert and use my baji system as an example. Liu Da Kai (6 big openings) which is a basic form from which other forms are built upon has 3 levels. The first level has no pigua techniques. The second level has some baji techniques combined with pigua techniques. The third level has even more refinement of the baji/pigua techniques. These 2nd and 3rd levels are primarily for those who are tudi and are teaching the lineage as full-time career and have the power (jings) developed well enough that the techniques are effective. I have seen them demonstrated but will probably not learn them (although I may get one or two). That does not make anything I have learned in baji/pigua less authentic, less valuable, less useful, less effective (unless I meet someone at the 2nd or 3rd level) etc. etc. etc.. That's simply the way the tudi hierarchy runs and if my teacher or others were teaching publicly, they would never teach this. So maybe that's what people refer to as a secret transmission but I simply accept it as part of my position in the hierarchy and that does not necessarily hinder traditional martial arts development.

As long as I have the basic training, basic ingredients, advanced forms are nothing more than icing on the cake. I also know for sure that without the basics trying to fill in at an advanced level doesn't work: you become merely a forms collector and use this as your market for the title of "Master".

So forms mean very little unless they are essential to the basic training and development of a system.

You can be very good in a system without these advanced forms or even great and people are not being ripped off if they are not taught at this level.

Also to reach these levels where advanced forms and techniques make sense, you need real strong dedication, intense practice, and career commitment. For most of us, this isn't going to happen and it doesn't make what you learn any less real or useful. You can still get all the benefits of a system if you are trained well in basics. Furthermore, there are many levels to basics and advancing to a new level makes sense only if you have mastered or are effective with the material of the previous level (judged primarily by structured alignment, 6 harmony in your movement, and power. Inferences about jings can be made also and includes two man interaction).

Not everyone can make it to this level for a variety of reasons and one being nature doesn't conform to our cultural definitions of equality. Genetic endowment plays a role (it runs across race so please don't misunderstand what I am saying. Mastery is not exclusive of any race). That also doesn't mean that we cannot improve upon what we are initially given.

I enjoy history, mythology and lineage (Jarek's site is a plus for much of this as is Gene Ching's magazine and others). However, the bottom-line, for me, is basics. Believe me, I, along with a few others, spent the early years (5-6 years) searching for the magic, secret form that would transform us into masters. It doesn't exist. Some never caught on and still measure their progress by the number of forms they collect or how well they can mystify the system in qi gong terminology.

Michuan may be a secret form, but what do you have train in to make it an EFFECTIVE "secret" form. That is where the gold lies and what I would like to see them write about.

Same goes with Zhao Bao, Hu Lei Jia or any system. Talk about lineage, mythology etc. and that's okay. Talk about how you train and why and now we are on to something.

RAF
09-22-2002, 05:15 AM
FYI:

If anyone is interested in some of the basics of Hu Lei Jia you should pick up a copy of Adam Hsu's Hu Lei Jia tape. He also has footage from the Village where Hu Lei Jia originated.

Regards.

GLW
09-22-2002, 07:55 AM
I'm not sure but RAF may be writing my thoughts...:


Jibengong...basic work...it is the most disliked aspect of training for just about every student of any martial art....and the most important. Without it, nothing else really matters.

When you ask my teacher what it takes to be considered good, the answer is always "Gong Fu, Gong Fu" (work...and more work) and it is never tied to anything else.

The amazing thing is that I have been in classes over and over again where one thing was said and STRESSED and virtually no one heard or understood. Asking the teacher later yielded that the statement was the teachers responsibility, the listeing and understanding the students.

Now that I am teaching for a while, I find that I explain more than my teachers ever did...but the end result on the how's and why's with the students is not that much deeper. It really does boil down to the fact that some people are predisposed to 'get it' some CAN 'get it' with work, and others simply never will.

All of the 'Secret' transmissions in the world will not affect the last type of student. They will only affect the second type of student if they hear it or see it at the right time and MORE than once...and the first type of student may actually figure it out before you say it.

And basic work is the key.

Shaolin Master
09-26-2002, 11:25 PM
Of course basic work is the key and then more and more .... and then what ?

There are basics in everything, everything is basic and everything is advanced. When you are correcting a movement of a newcomer to that of a 5 yr student or a 10 yr student, your are still correcting basics but at various degrees.

Training points:

Note in Zhao Bao push hands is practised differently to other TJQ the emphasis is on one touch and remove, we don't practise single push hands too much if at all (different teachers different levels of progress). The emphasis is on comprehending the incoming energy and neutralising or dispersing it at the same instant. Some Taiji styles wait then neautralise in Zhao Bao we are in constant motion with the ability to attack or defend at any moment of the motion. Stepping is vital as well and this is emphasised, rooting is that of constantly readjusting equilibrium without the facet of incoming forces.....etc.......

In fact, therer are significant differences in our frames so that although Zhong Jia and Da Jia are the same some movements are altered significantly so from the outside it can look quite different but on the inside the energy is the same. In Da Jia there are over 70 kicks and The are done at top speed or with focal it changes always, everyday it is different same but different.

All the changes, all the movements ups an downs ins and outs forwards and backwards....etc become as one.....comprehending the totality of the Taiji..... so the external manifestation differs but the internal remains the same.

We also contain various whole body Peng force training using Bai He Liang Zhi, Sinking methods with Pi Pa Shi etc...........,....against instruments with stepping and energic emphasis leading from simple comprehension to a more advanced one.

Anyways, at least it brings up conversation amongst the peeps.

RAF
09-27-2002, 04:09 AM
Shaolin Master:

And then what, you ask rhetorically? Infinite years of refinement and, assuming your level is adequate, advanced techniques, principles, and forms.

At this stage, advanced, in my experience is refinement. You never leave the basic although you add more to it.

Sorry but I've seen too many forms collectors whose basics never show and their performance and execution completely distort the system. People laugh at them behind their back, if they know good martial arts principles or people become so duped that they make them into little "gods" and spend years trying to get the crumbs of advanced forms. Thats when lineage, history and paperwork become a shield, a marker. Seldom will these little "masters" demonstrate but strut around making judgements, wearing the look, spouting Chinese terms, claiming they are now on a spiritual level, claiming they can see the "wall of qi", and in general, bullshhitting themselves and others. The payment is steep both in time and money and they would have been better off with practicing good basics and a form or two.

Naahhh, I've seen too many and the internet only feeds the frauds.



On that note, thank you. Are there tapes of this or even seminars? It sounds very interesting.

Do you train with the big spear or pole?

Any stance work?

Someone gave me the VCDs of one Zhaobao master (in Chinese and about a $1.80 a VCD if you buy it in China ) and the pan flute music and classical music background just kill me. However, his structure is very deep and good.

Also Roam about the Taiji World has a couple of demonstrations of Zhaobao.

As I said before, regardless of lineage claims, Zhaobao style stands on its own and I am glad it is becoming public.

Thank you again, and keep the info coming.

GLW
09-27-2002, 10:59 AM
"Note in Zhao Bao push hands is practised differently to other TJQ the emphasis is on one touch and remove, "

Meaning that this is an ASPECT of push hands that you emphasize. There are many aspects of Taijiquan and Tuisho. It is uncommon for someone to do all of them...almost impossible actually....but that does not make what they do 'different' in any sense other than seeing a different side.

A common statement in Taijiquan is "Our way is different or unique" and in my experience, this may mean flavor or a small detail but there are still broad categories things fall into.

"we don't practise single push hands too much if at all (different teachers different levels of progress). "

If this a one hand version...that is a beginner level exercise....most people don't do that much of it after they move to two handed anyway.


"The emphasis is on comprehending the incoming energy and neutralising or dispersing it at the same instant. "

Listening and neutralising...nothing different there...just the fact that you try to get into the early handling faster.... In actuality, there are times it is appropriate to neutralize as soon as you can...and times where it is better to wait a bit.... since it may REALLY over commit the opponent.... We all need to do both.


"Some Taiji styles wait then neautralise in Zhao Bao we are in constant motion with the ability to attack or defend at any moment of the motion. "

I wouldn't say styles...I would say people..... All Taijiquan expressed according to Taijiquan principles is constantly changing. At higher levels, attack is combined with defend in ALL styles of wushu....

"Stepping is vital as well and this is emphasised, rooting is that of constantly readjusting equilibrium without the facet of incoming forces.....etc......."

This is stating a fundamental concept of all wushu as well.

There is more similar in all of what we do than differences. The similarities make us have something in common. The differences make it interesting and beautiful.

Shaolin Master
09-27-2002, 06:40 PM
GLW,

Different = Seeing a different side ( we both may drive cars the basis is the same but the emphasis is different so we say we drive cars differently! )

On a macro level everything is the same, but this is not what we emphasise in MA or else all styles are in essence the same (which I agree to in some relative manner).

True, maybe other styles only do one handed initially but some of the Zhao Bao teachers do not even teach one handed excercises or even the stationary methods moving straight to moving double (whereas others probably recently do).....again not different as such just a differing emphasis/approach.

Again Listening/neutralising nothing different but our emphasis and approach does so.

I have seen many taiji players stay still and wait often atime in traditional zhao bao it is to be moving around constantly similarily to ErLangQuan or ZiranMen (different shape similar concept). Recently I've seen people practice waiting but not in the past. Again the emphasis ....of course constant change is a fundamental principle.

Stepping I may not have explained it clearly enough the different emphasis is in the footwork moving with the changing balance to find a new balance often enough the concept is to maintain balance not change it.

Therefore, yes of course we have similarities because it is all TJQ the principles are the same, the different emphasis are the differences and by having different emphasis a difference in approach evolves and at times even in actual technique.

RAF,
Basics at various degrees = refinement : we are saying the same thing.

Regarding the shield of mysticism and paperwork I agree. It is why I teach no nonsense arts based on the essence, This I cannot talk only my teachers and studenhts can testify. Also, why those that market their special Qi cr@p like a book that my student showed from some guy in the US claiming that his teacher energically passed all his knowledge and power....think ihe was named Karl or something oh please !! the US (and China and many other places have alot of those) . Unfortunately marketing works for some (and the US are well known as the best MArketers in the world :) ).

Tapes or Seminars, I think Wang Hai Zhou has made a few VCDs (prob what you're talking about) and also another set on Xiao Jia by another, also I haven't seen as yet but there are some conference seminars available on VCD, I'm unsure of the detail though. I guess if one fishes enough they can find, but I don't collect tapes and things too much, so you're asking the wrong man. I think that as time progresses more will be released to common markets. It is difficult to put Zhao Bao methods on to a VCD or video because there is quite alot there and not standardised (training or even visiting practitioners at least is better, so what one sees are standardised versions, however as every movement is trained on its own within ists innaugerate amount of variations it can become quite different as a form...but I guess for some flavour it is ok....

There are spear methods taught and the excercises and basics have benefits to training, Da Qiang is used by some but not the norm.

Pole : There is a few excercises with the poles of two kinds : hand poles between two as well as single and also a larger ground pole. This are used at the fundamental level and for addressing the motions of the waist and hips.

Stancework :
Well wuite alot of effort here first which is common to many other TJQ I would presume. Includes rolling the hip in every stance, standing excercises, opening and closing motion of the stance, basic stepping methodologies, patterned stepping especially side panning etc.....(didn't use jargon :))

Anyways, til later

Esteban
09-28-2002, 08:24 AM
Hi Shaolin Master,

is there a website you would recommend where the information you provide is also presented? If not, could you mail or post a list of the names in your forms --just for reference.

Tia,
Esteban

Shaolin Master
09-28-2002, 09:36 PM
Zhao Bao TJQ :
http://zlavc.com/bingmao/taiji.htm

Esteban
09-29-2002, 12:56 PM
Thanks,

Esteban

SPJ
12-05-2006, 07:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icFudwRDLh4&NR

:)

kfson
01-15-2010, 02:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lfEBj2Ohs


"The Zhaobao Taijiquan style shares has many similarities with Chen style Taijiquan, and this commonality is considered by the school to be the manifestation of influences introduced by a member of the famed Chen family- Chen Qingping. He created a style known as the "New Frame", which he taught to many disciples including He Zhaoyuan and Wu Yuxiang. The result of this influence means that the Zhaobao Taijiquan style is often considered by observers to simply be a recent off-shoot of the Chen style. But actually the style has a much longer history and retains many unique qualities based on traditional Taijiquan theory and practice, clearly differentiating it as a complete and separate system of practice."

mawali
01-15-2010, 08:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lfEBj2Ohs


"The Zhaobao Taijiquan style shares has many similarities with Chen style Taijiquan, and this commonality is considered by the school to be the manifestation of influences introduced by a member of the famed Chen family- Chen Qingping. He created a style known as the "New Frame", which he taught to many disciples including He Zhaoyuan and Wu Yuxiang. The result of this influence means that the Zhaobao Taijiquan style is often considered by observers to simply be a recent off-shoot of the Chen style. But actually the style has a much longer history and retains many unique qualities based on traditional Taijiquan theory and practice, clearly differentiating it as a complete and separate system of practice."

I do not believe it has a longer history but a unique one in that it was influenced by He style of the era. Keep in mind that Chen village was close by and as a result a Chen married into that village (zhaobao)and the He influenced introduced said transformation. The Chen individual came from Chenjiagou so Zhaobao cannot be older than Chemnjiagou family art.
Just my objective view!

SteveGTKF
11-01-2012, 11:20 PM
I do not believe it has a longer history but a unique one in that it was influenced by He style of the era. Keep in mind that Chen village was close by and as a result a Chen married into that village (zhaobao)and the He influenced introduced said transformation. The Chen individual came from Chenjiagou so Zhaobao cannot be older than Chemnjiagou family art.
Just my objective view!
Perhaps I am making a mistake, but what do you mean by He influencing Zhao Bao Tai Chi Chuan? (If that's what you are saying.) He Zhao Yuan was a student of Chen Qing Ping. He Style Tai Chi Chuan still uses the lineage of Zhao Bao (for example, most He Style practitioners nowadays are of the 12th-14th Generation of Zhao Bao) and is considered a branch of Zhao Bao.

SteveGTKF
11-01-2012, 11:36 PM
Chen Qing Ping, 7th Generation Zhao Bao, is said to have been influenced by Chen Tai Chi Chuan as he also learned Chen from Chen Youben (his Zhao Bao Teacher was 6th Generation Zhang Yian). But looking through my lineage I realized there is possibly an earlier influence. 4th Generation Zhao Bao, Chen Jiang Buo also learned Chen from Chen Zhengru.
Of course it's all open to debate and of course to what degree there was influence is anyones guess but I was curious if anyone had heard this before?

GeneChing
11-02-2012, 10:39 AM
Our next cover story is on Zhaobao Taijiquan. That will be our Jan+Feb 2013, which will be available in early December. We just sent it to print yesterday. Subscribe now (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html) and this will be your first issue.

GeneChing
12-04-2012, 09:56 AM
Zhao's Stronghold By Gene Ching with Gigi Oh (JAN+FEB 2013 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1073))

I hope it answers a few of your questions, or at least, makes clear why there's such ambiguity with Zhaobao history.

mawali
12-04-2012, 12:12 PM
Chen Qing Ping, 7th Generation Zhao Bao, is said to have been influenced by Chen Tai Chi Chuan as he also learned Chen from Chen Youben (his Zhao Bao Teacher was 6th Generation Zhang Yian). But looking through my lineage I realized there is possibly an earlier influence. 4th Generation Zhao Bao, Chen Jiang Buo also learned Chen from Chen Zhengru.
Of course it's all open to debate and of course to what degree there was influence is anyones guess but I was curious if anyone had heard this before?

I am only saying that Zhaobao is Chen family style with some X factors added. It can still be seen in exposition as Chen. Zhaobao is the next village over from Chenjiagou os they do share a heritage. As to the extent of what is termend He style, I am ignorant but it is alleged to be part and parcel 'addition' (extent unknow to me) but it does give Chenjiagou a different 'look'.

I will look forward to the article in the Jan-Feb 2013 article by Gene Ching!
Thank you sir!

GeneChing
01-03-2013, 01:29 PM
Zhao's Stronghold (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1077) by Gene Ching with Gigi Oh. Omitted from the online version is a lineage chart and Master Wayne Peng's contact info, which was www.usataichikungfu.com at the time of publication, but for some reason was changed to www.zhaobaotaichi.com without rerouting the original web address.

GeneChing
09-18-2017, 08:51 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqGKNtLspQk

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/cover2013_01.jpg

JANUARY+FEBRUARY 2015 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1073)

Zhao Bao Taiji (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56175-Zhao-Bao-Taiji) @ KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)