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Eight_Triagram_Boxer
01-22-2001, 11:03 PM
I have a question for those of you out there that study the history and lineages of BaguaZhang. Have any of you seen Gong Bao Tien being listed as a direct disciple or student of Tung Hai Chuan? I know he is commonly thought of as a student of Yin Fu. Also, has anyone ever seen a picture of him?
I hope this won't start any type of a fued. I know lineage is a sensitive subject but I am looking for some good hard facts, or at least the closest thing to it. Thanks for your help.

Oh by the way, I know there hasn't been much fueding going on, but next time it starts and someone's skill is in question and distance doesn't allow a chance to "touch hands" (I hate that term)... Why not post a picture of yourself doing a single palm. Ones skill can be graded quite well from just this posture....

It's a thought. Better than just spewing out some nonsense, right?

Ok, enough said. Thanks for the help in advance.

~ETB

count
01-22-2001, 11:26 PM
Best I could do from my collection. I tried to blow up Gung, Pao Tien in the circle.

http://kabooom.com/Gung,PaoTien.jpg

I have pleanty of pictures at at my website (http://kabooom.com)

Mostly over 6 years ago though, hope to have some new stuff soon.

Count

count
01-22-2001, 11:43 PM
While I as at it I thought I would post one of Yin Fu too.

http://kabooom.com/YinFu.jpg p

Eight_Triagram_Boxer
01-23-2001, 02:55 AM
Count,
I really like your site. Good job! And nice collection of pics. So far yours is the only pic I've ever seen of Gong Bao Tien. I see you are also under Gong Bao Tien's lineage, do you have any info concerning my initial question? Or maybe your instructor has some?
Thanks again for the pic.

~ETB

count
01-23-2001, 03:25 AM
I know that Grandmaster Liu studied from Gong Bao Tien who studied from Yin Fu. I don't no if there was an association directly to Dong Hai Chuan. I will ask Tsou Sifu on Saturday. I believe Sun Lu Tang is also in the photo although I haven't yet identified everyone. I will work on it.

Thanks for the compliment on my web site (http://kabooom.com/). The photos of me are old though. I have learned alot in the last 6 years.
:D

Eight_Triagram_Boxer
01-24-2001, 03:01 AM
I just got some info from one source telling me that Gong Bao Tien would have been 11 years old when Tung Hai Chuan died. I suppose that would make it impossible for him to have learned from Master Tung. However, there are still those that claim he did. I wonder what their basis for this is.

count
01-24-2001, 02:54 PM
I found this in some old archives. I still plan on getting more info about Gung, Bao Tien's background but this is a much better photo.

http://kabooom.com/GongBaoTien.JPG

count
01-26-2001, 04:08 PM
I have been corrected on the larger photo. It is actualy Ding Tze-Chen, Master Liu's Praying Mantis teacher. Thank you He Jing-Han from Taiwan. I have begun a masters gallery at my site http://kabooom.com/htmls/masters.html Any contributions would be greatly appreciated.
count

devere
01-27-2001, 10:35 PM
Hello everyone. First off, I am a xingyi student of Gong Zhong Xiang. Over on my message board, Master Gong's top disciple Shun Quan tried to help shed a little light on the above question of Gong Bao Tien learning from Yin Fu or Dong himself. Here is a copy of the post from Shun:
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My grandmaster is Wang Zhang Fei who was a close disciple of Master Gong Bao Tian. Because of a special relationship, Grand master Gong had spend 15 years exclusive teaching Master Wang which is master Wang priviledge and our honor. According to our master Wang, Master Gong had revealed that he had first learned from Yin Fu for a short time. After recognized the ability of Master Gong, Master Yin Fu advanced him to Grand master Tung Hai Chuan. Since then Gong studied directly from Master Tung. According to Master Wang When Gong died he was 83, 84 years of age. From the year he died tracing back to the year he was born. It appeared that he had spend a significiant year with Tung Hai Chuan as a disciple. So it seems there is a inconsistency and the disbute in regard to Gong birthdate.

I had done some reasearch on one of the legistimated Yin Fu lineage in Bejing. Their system is different from us. For example, they specialized in ox tongue palm and we are not. Their movements have more lineage move. Ours are consisted of centric as core. ...

From an objective point of view, it is quite apparent to me that Yin Fu and our systems are very different from large to small. If our system is truely Gong Bao Tian ( which I have no doubt ) then it is either Gong learned from someone else or injected his own inventions. It is really up to your judgement and your choice of which story you believe. But with discipleship, I have faith in my master , Master Gong Zhong Zhang. He was also a dedicated diciple of Master Wang. So the bottom line is the creditbility of our story is based on the integrety of our Grand Master Wang Zhang Fei. With the understanding of our Grand Master Wang Zhang Fei, we have no doubt in his character.

Anyway, the past is past, we have no way of to proven except having faith and knowing the systems that our masters left with us. Hope this share some light. It is just a story as the other story. Time is already past. The old masters gone. Let 's the two stories stand then. The importance is growth of two systems. May be someday a compare of the two in term of techniques will be mutual benefit and revealed more. Until then, happy pratice and happy new year again !
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Hope that helps a bit. :)

David
www.emptyflower.com (http://www.emptyflower.com)

count
01-28-2001, 03:39 PM
I have brought this question to 2 reliable sources and have gotten similiar answers from both. Both say he might have had the chance to learn from Master Dung because of location and time period and the fact that Master Gong started training when he was a very little kid. However they both also say "we cannot say that his teacher was Dung Hai Chuan, his teacher is Yin Fu".

I believe that what was quoted by Shun Quan, may be in part, true that there is probably no accurate birth and death records to back up this historic fact. They just didn't keep them in those days. But I think to say that he had already learned bagua from Yin Fu and than advanced to Master Dung would stretch the time span by at least ten years more. I have seen dates that are similiar to what you say. That is Gong would have been around 10 when Dung died, but I think it takes at least 10 years to begin learning bagua and many more years with a teacher to learn what he knows.

I guess we can surely say that Gong Bao Tians teacher was Yi n Fu. The question might be, how close was Yin Fu's Bagua To Dung's? How much did he change or re-invent before passing it on to Gong Bao Tian? And so on, and so on? It's a shame their is no historical accuracy in the transmission of these forms but it follows the true nature of the art to say constant change has taken place.

http://kabooom.com/images/caligraphy/gong.jpg ˇ