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pakua student
03-10-2001, 11:23 PM
I was just reading Yang Jwing Mings Book on Bagua,it states that YIN Fu modified what he learned from Dong Hai Chuan . And it also said that Cheng ting Hwa was generaly thought of as being Dongs best student. How acurate is this book.
And if there are different accounts i would like to here them.

Thanks in advance.
Pakua student

count
03-10-2001, 11:54 PM
Dong Hai Chuan taught each of his students differently based on their own martial attributes. In turn each of his students also taught differently. Because a person is a great student doesn't necessarly make them a great teacher either. Who can say which is best? Yang Jwing Ming is certainly entitled to state his opinion. I'd sure like to see more cheng style. Maybe it is different. Better I think is up to the individual. From what I know about my system, Yin style, it is about as COMPLETE a system as you will find.

Braden
03-11-2001, 03:21 AM
There has been an unfortunate tradition in various bagua lineages to justify claims that yours is the most authentic, best, or most complete system.

Many Yin Fu proponents claim that only Yin recieved the full system, which is why his looks different. Cheng Ting Hua proponents suggest that Yin Fu mixed his bagua too much with tantui or lohan and so only Cheng's is pure. I've heard students of the Liang Zhenpu style say their's is the only real version, because Liang was the only one of Dong's disciples to only study bagua, so everyone else's is a mixed style. Some Gao practitioners believe Gao met with another student of Dong Hai Chuan's teacher who passed on the complete transmission to Gao, so thus none of the other lineages from Dong are complete. Li Cun-Yi and Zhang Zhao Dong are reputed to be the only ones to have recieved the true combatative versions of bagua.

I don't think any of it is worth much consideration.

Esteban
03-11-2001, 04:18 AM
Hi,

I tend to agree with Braden: i.e., it's not really an important question, especially when it comes to baguazhang. Well, clearly from Cheng onward, bagua has been particularly adaptable to different fighting styles. Someone has already said that Cheng, himself, was an expert shuiajiao practitioner before he began bagua. His students were usually well-versed in some other martial art. But, heck, Dong Haichuan is supposed to have been a long time student of Erlangquan before he --however he did it-- invented baguazhang. So, what is "pure" bagua is always up to debate. OTOH, all the baguazhang families share the common and central element of circle walking. Well, imo, the only baguazhang that is incomplete is the one that does not walk the circle. The other differences are superficial, and the effectiveness will depend on the quality of the teaching and the individual practice.
In that way, Cheng's bagua is no different from any other variety.

Respectfully,
Esteban

razakdigital
03-11-2001, 03:23 PM
If the martial artist follows the principles then its pa kua regardless of lineage...

wujidude
03-11-2001, 06:03 PM
Right on, Razak.

There are different styles of bagua because of the different martial backgrounds of Dong Haichuan's senior students. With no disrespect intended for either Liang or Yang in their book on "Emei Baguazhang," neither of them are noted baguazhang practitioners. Yang in particular tends to make up for that in his books by providing a lot of historical information, meanderings on theory and wude (martial virtue), and attempted translations of "classics". The historical section of this book in particular is a mish-mash of the various stories of the various lineages, a compilation rather than original research. And some statements, like the one about Yin Fu somehow modifying the baguazhang he was taught or Cheng Tinghua being Dong's best student, are pure assertion (and pure bull****, in my mind). It all depends on how ya look at it. Having said all of that, Liang/Yang's book is one of the best out there on bagua and they are to be commended for their comprehensive illustrations of bagua. Hell I like the book and shelled out the bucks for it.

Every one of Dong's students modified what they learned from Dong on the basis of their previous martial arts training. Period. And every one of Cheng's students modified what they learned as well. So obviously Yin Fu would have. He was after all the student who studied with Dong the longest (20 years, as distinct from the 5 years that Cheng studied with Dong, when Dong was in his late 70s and early 80s). Yin was with Dong while Dong was developing bagua. And Yin achieved the highest ranking, in a martial arts sense, when chosen to escort the Empress Dowager out of Beijing during the Boxer Rebellion of 1900.

I practice a couple of different Cheng styles. I like the "swimming dragon" theme to physical conditioning in the styles. Plus quality Yin instruction isn't really available in the areas I live and work in. You have to go to LA or NYC to find much of that, I think.

If you're trolling for a "Cheng v. Yin" cascade of arguments, please stop. There are effective teachers and fighters in both lineages. And there is no one "Cheng" style, just as there is no one "Yin Fu" style. If done well . . . they are all good.

razakdigital
03-11-2001, 07:03 PM
Wuji my man I think you hit it right with the palm( lol I know its corny ). You just summarize what every author has said about pa kua lineages...every body has added their own flavor to the style..bottom line - does it work? Is it effective in combat? I havent heard complaints from lineages of Cheng Ting or Yin, or Ma...

Good work Wuji...

Everyday I learn so much about what I know and what I think I know...and I learn that I still have a lot more to learn...

peace

pakua student
03-12-2001, 05:00 AM
Wuji,
I`m no troll bro, this was a genuine question i had. I`m still very new to Bagua.

wujidude
03-12-2001, 05:50 AM
hey P.S. . . . sorry too much caffeine preceding my last post. No trolling, no worries, mate. Richmond VA, huh? You're real close to a real fine teacher of our art, Park Bok Nam. Hell you may even study with him. If so, you're fortunate.

pakua student
03-12-2001, 06:34 AM
No problem.
Yes, i am a student of sifu park.

blacktaoist
03-13-2001, 08:04 AM
yin fu was one of tung hai chuan's top students. But he also was a lohan shaolin master. Lohan is known for its famous kicking techniques. and its influence is noticeabie in many yin fu's methods. Also yin style popularized the method of sixty four palms, as opposed to just eight. Yin fu was the first person to popularize the ox tongue palm. Yin style uses the piercing palm as its main feature in combat. Also during the boxer rebellion , the dowager empress had her choice of all the martial artists in the forbidden city yet she chose only yin fu as her escort. There no way in hell that cheng ting hua could be tung hai chuan's best pa kua student. Yin fu was a master of pa kua chang way before cheng ting hua knew what walking the circle look like. Now cheng ting hua was tungs other top student. But yin fu had many students before cheng ting hua learned pa kua chang. His son yin yu chang succeeded him. Yin fu indoor students who received the true transmission were ma kuei, kung pao tien and ts'ui chen tung.

Now cheng ting hua reputation was far and wide. Cheng would always throwing his opponents in a singie movement. cheng popularized the dragon palm, and also mixed his pa kua with hsing-I. He was also good at shuai chiao. chengs most famous students that i know of are, chang yueh kuei,li wen piao, chou yueh hsiang, sun ling feng, li han chang. Cheng yu lung, cheng yu hsing, cheng tien hua, cheng yu kung. Out of all cheng ting hua students, not one of them received the whole transmission. Even his own sons!! Pa kua student, pa kua chang is superior to other boxing methods, only if a student understand how to create and develop on the theory of the principle of change. Yin fu and cheng ting hua didn't just understand I ching they were the matrix of change! This is why they were superior fighters to all other boxers. so modified is part of change, nothing stay the same in life, even martial arts. peace my pa kua brother. blacktaoist always keep the tao real.

TaoBoxer
03-13-2001, 04:11 PM
Like we don't have enough problems in our training we need to waist time with this crap??

I enjoy a historical debate as much as the next guy, but come on. My style is mostly Cheng Ting Hua.... or so I thought. I just read Martial Musings by RW Smith and now he is saying that he is part of the Yin Fu lineage.... Totally changes the way I look at my Ba Gua.... or does it? The palm changes I practice were created by other people....but they are now part of MY Ba Gua. I walk my Circle, not them. I had several years of Aiki ju Jitsu prior to Ba Gua, so I primarily look at it as a grappling/throwing art. I practice a lot of Chin Na and Shuai.

We are all smart enough to be doing Ba Gua here....so lets try to stick together. If were gonna tool on somone...lets tool on all the poor fools doin BJJ and TKD ;)

Mark M
03-13-2001, 10:14 PM
Since the style that I practice came from Sun Lutang , and Sun learned from Cheng Ting Hua, I can say that our style does have quite a bit of Hsing I in it. When striking, we use the Hsing I stepping method, not in all strikes but in some.