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View Full Version : JKD is quite limited, isn't it?



David
10-16-2000, 05:18 PM
Take what is useful and discard what is not.

It sounds like a recipe for success: take what you like from any style and use it for your arsenal.

However, it occurs to me that JKD is practised and taught as an external art and so probably lacks the capability to take on-board techniques or strengths originating in high kung fu systems.

Am I right in thinking you have no iron palm, iron shirt, ging, fa-jing, chi, ki, dantien, sink, float, bone marrow regeneration, bone flexibility, ... etc?

Perhaps you have the 1-inch punch taught as an elementary skill in honour of Bruce Lee? Or is it not useful?

I seem to be in a trolly mood this afternoon.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif . I'll be going back under my bridge now.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

10-16-2000, 05:41 PM
I think you have fallen victom to many myths that
surround JKD. JKD is Street fighting art that is also called scientific street fighting So it may lack all that mystical stuff but it can wipe someone out.

Promoting Peace through JKD

David
10-16-2000, 06:27 PM
*shrugs*

Your loss.

"Consider a spherical cloud" as the scientist in us is wont to say.

origenx
10-18-2000, 07:52 PM
David - I agree, Bruce Lee (at least publicly or consciously) didn't seem to put much stock in the esoteric internal sides of the martial arts. Just a guess, but if that was really his attitude, I suspect it may have been because he lacked the right teacher, opportunity and patience.

Or maybe he was right - it is all just a bunch of hogwash. Although I personally don't quite believe that...

Black Jack
10-18-2000, 10:16 PM
I think your last few lines told the truth...a bunch of hogwash...there is no place for the mystical in streetfighting and I would consider it our gain and never a loss.

I like to work with practical systems or schools of thought when it comes to my life and the life of my loved ones.

Regards

rogue
10-19-2000, 05:35 AM
I've found the "spiritual" aspects help keep me focused and centered when the guano hits the rotary. Getting my blood up and fighting is easy for me, but my goal is to take the personal aspect out of it. Dropping someone shouldn't be anything more than taking out the trash.

I used to be daga

David
10-19-2000, 12:16 PM
Black Jack -how practical and streetwise is the love you have for you "loved ones"? How much hogwash is that?

Internal skills will keep you in good shape long into your old age. As an externalist, you might take on some young hoodlum when you 70 but your bones are just going to crumble to dust when he hits you or you go to the ground. Your body will fail you because you've treated it like a machine and it ain't like that.

Rogue you're scaring me! You sing hymns while kicking ass?

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

Black Jack
10-19-2000, 04:56 PM
David thats not how it works number one and number two your top paragraph didn't make any sense?

Why do you want to take a system that does not train for fighting...???? Do you think that when the **** realy hits the fan that your chi will be there for you...???

I will always have knees, elbows and headbutts...tools like those need zero conditioning...no iron palm, no fabled chi, no hogwash, just practical training, concepts and tools that will help get me out of a situation no matter what the age.

As for the body crumbling into dust statement...to me that is just a copout for not training seriously, same as the my techniques are too deadly to spar bullcrap.

You ask me why would I want to take a art that would hurt me when I am older (not true) and I will ask you why you would want to take a art that does not teach you to protect yourself in a life or death situation in the present??????

Rogue do you mean "spiritual" as in your styles "spiritual" aspect or as in a personal one of a religous nature?

Regards

rogue
10-20-2000, 01:54 AM
Dang tootin I sing hymns while street fighting. Well I don't really sing, I lip sync to a sound track that I recorded earlier. It's hard to fight and sing well at the same time.

I picked the wrong word when I used "spiritual", I meant "internal". Meditation and focus really do help me fight and raise my situational awareness. Yeah, and I break boards as an exercise to help develope focus, and please guys don't give the overused Lee quote about breaking boards, since mooks don't hit back either. These things do not have to be left out of arts whose prime focus is fighting. We fight, I have two bloody sets of white PJs currently in the wash to prove it, but we don't ignore the otherside of our art.

There's more to fighting than just a lot of techniques. Do you need the internal stuff to be a good fighter? No, but if done right it sure helps. The trick is to do it right and incorporate it into the training just as you would anything else.

BTW, JKD is only as limited as the people doing it, like any other art.

I used to be daga

Black Jack
10-20-2000, 06:44 AM
Good Post Rogue

Dude you should get the black pjs they look way cooler...they got that kenpo badboy look to them that just says..."I have arrived".

/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Regards

Tiger Moon
10-20-2000, 10:48 AM
I must say how in the world can JKD be limited, its to be bound by none. Yes it is to take what is useful and discard what doesn't work, but its unlimited its to take everything and anything that works and use it in your arsenal. So how can that be limited?? Bruce never specifially made JKD a internal or external art, but its basically a everything art. The point of it is the idea of how to fight and what to learn and use is up to you, not to limit yourself with just one and only style.

--Tiger Moon--

rogue
10-21-2000, 05:19 AM
But the white shows the blood up so much better Black Jack!

Tiger Moon, while I don't think there are any built in limitations in JKD, I do believe that alot of JKD folks follow a certain dogma as to what arts to study, how to study them and how to train. There is nothing at all wrong with the arts that JKD people study, how they study them or how they train in them; but there is some hypocrisy in the JKD community regarding how open minded they are to other systems. I also think this is a fairly recent thing that came along with the number of new JKD schools opening.

Now one guy in the JKD community, Jerry Beasly, is offering seminars on JKD concepts for traditional stylist. That has my attention since he may be untyping the JKD concepts from the art of JKD, yes, I believe that JKD has become an art unto itself and a very good one at that. I'd be interested in hearing from any one that's been to these seminars or knows Dr Beasly.

I used to be ex-JKDer daga.

[This message was edited by rogue on 10-21-00 at 10:31 PM.]

Tiger Moon
10-22-2000, 03:32 AM
yeah i hear ya, alot of people are opening the schools making it a certain style to practice, when in fact its not supposed to be and shouldn't be a style. Its an idea and way to study and learn the martial arts in a smarter and more free way to learn the MA, making it so that your not limited to some specific style. So you can of course learn everything that works so you can match up with most fighters, not just someone with your own style. I think Bruce was an unbelievable individual as both a martial artist and a human being, and amazing that he did so much of this stuff before he passed away at 32, even though for some reason alot of people won't take JKD as he made it, somehow thinking that it wasn't completed when in fact he stated thats the way its meant to be which is to learn everything in which works. Sorry for rambling on lol

--Tiger Moon--

rogue
10-22-2000, 05:20 AM
I wonder if Lee at a certain point would have scrapped the whole of JKD and started over had he lived. Maybe it would be more in the spirit of JKD if people looked at how guys like Guro Dan and Vu learn than what arts they learn. Let me also clarify that I don't think JKD has intentionally become a style but has become one due to how well guys like Dan and Vu, to name but two, have spread JKD and naturally it reflects their views of what works and what doesn't.

I used to be daga

David
10-22-2000, 12:09 PM
black jack, I learn kungfu for self-defense and because I'm a long-termist. It is because other people like to fight that I learn to look after myself.
Granted, I'm getting to be more physical these days but I don't think in terms of fighting. Last Friday, a guy brought a smile to my face by threatening me with a pool cue. End of situation.

Do the externalists here watch too many cartoons? What's the beef with chi and internal training? You're plain nuts if you think there's nothing to it.

JKD is limited perhaps because the people who train it aren't kung fu people.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

origenx
10-22-2000, 07:53 PM
rogue - undoubtedly. People (including Bruce) actually don't always continuously evolve in a nice neat linear fashion, but often in steps. Like when Bruce fought Wong Jack Man and it suddenly forced him into re-evaluating the importance of conditioning and cardiovascular fitness. So people shouldn't automatically assume that Bruce would have just continued JKD in a strictly linear progression. Who knows, he might have, especially as his physical condition decreased in his aging years, re-examined the internal arts and then gone down that route? Who knows? Who will ever know?

Black Jack
10-22-2000, 11:09 PM
And some will say you are nutts for your believe in it...to me martial arts are for fighting and not fantasy.

Regards

rogue
10-23-2000, 04:45 AM
I don't know Black Jack. From what I understand Vu is now into some of the healing arts and he is a pretty decent fighter. People grow and change with age and Lee might have also. Maybe he would have embraced the internal arts as a method of improving or healing himself, maybe not, but to dismiss even the idea it could happen?

I agree that MAs are for fighting, but if someone also shows me how to alleviate the pain of a broken finger or rib using accupressure so I can still fight then I count that as keeping something useful. If someone teaches me to meditate and to be still and aware so I can sense if an intruder is in my home, I'll keep that as useful. When it comes to fighting it seems alot of JKD people concentrate on the finger and don't see the moon. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I used to be daga

Black Jack
10-23-2000, 05:43 AM
Vu has a spot on his webpage that is written by a doctor on herbal supplements and other health articles related to martial arts and good internal health in general by the use of herbs and vitamens.

This is not about any internal chi or qi. Vu is into herbs and scientific data on new vitamen/mineral/ammino acid compounds and there benefit to our bodies.

What David was saying is in the reference to chi as in the internal martial practices such as Tai Chi and Chi Gung and not in a herbology related manner as one IMHO has to do with science and the other theory.

JKD is about scientific street fighting and not about chi cultivation at all. If someone wants to learn to do yoga or chi gung he is at the wrong school...the people at JKD are there to learn to fight and to express/discover themselves in there fighting and not to learn about chi or matters related to the mythic.

I myself meditate and find it a great tool to calm my nerves and get my head together.

I see Tai Chi and the other internal arts as having this ability in there standing forms as well but I will still stand by my thoughts that in a street fight I hope that I have been working on my fighting more than any chi development.

You can also say that those styles that work only on this chi development and not on any practical fighting practice are not only missing the moon but missing the whole galaxy.

I do have a interest in all matters related to alternative medicine and internal awareness training but I do not think that these two should be fitted in with the science of fighting at all.

Lets keep them seperate where they belong. A warrior needs to know how to heal as well as hurt but thats not what was stated in this post...what was stated was a internal sytlists views from his background and his opinion on what makes a system complete.

Regards

[This message was edited by Black Jack on 10-23-00 at 10:49 PM.]

David
10-23-2000, 12:48 PM
Blackjack
It sounds to me that JKD isn't any kind of kung fu. Whatever it is, maybe it's complete in the manner of being holistic and preparing for every eventuality.
If I may quote a very intelligent seagull: "argue for your limitations and they're yours"

My whole point was I suddenly realised jkd "took what was useful" from a set of arts which filled certain criteria and failed to take anything from anything else.
This observation surprised me but you seem to justify it by saying all other styles are useless which doesn't surprise me.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

rogue
10-23-2000, 02:30 PM
Then according to JKD philosophy of taking what's useful, wouldn't the internal stylist be as correct as the Jun Fan stylist? After all if the internal stylist finds that chi development helps him survive and win a fight better than doing stick and knife drills, whose to say he's wrong? By his standards, JKD would be an incomplete art, a collection of techniques, an art that has done away with what's useful to him. What JKD seems to say is "take what is useful only from the core of techniques from Dan, Paul and Burton and throw away the rest without fully exploring them".

BTW How many fights do you get into per week?

I used to be daga

Black Jack
10-23-2000, 04:18 PM
Number One: David that is not what I stated and if you are going to start putting words in my mouth to defend your style than I will respond no further. When did I say all other styles are useless? Please get your head out of your ass!

Rogue I know you have a weird urge to try to put JKD down but when we mean take what is usefull and discard the rest we are talking about what is in reality not fanatsy.

If a JKD guy wants to go out and learn chi development that is fine but most JKD guys I know think that is a massive waste of time and when it comes to any aspect of hand to hand combat that is where that quote is applied.

What my JKD school has over the other traditional schools that I have been to and seen is the training element. There is no trying to heat up your hands with chi or open blocked merdian sessions...it is about street fighting and survival self defense training and not dungeons and dragons.

You should stop trying to state that we follow Vu and Paul and Burton around like sheep because number one that is not even close to true and second it is played.

I could take the same route with your system and say that it has some of the worst training and realism in all of martial arts and that TKD is a sport and not about hard hitting street self defense but that is not my way and it would make for a gross generalzation on my behalf, just as you are making when you put all JKD guys into that generic reference point.

One could also make up things like you could not get through your JKD training because it was to creative and not as structured as you needed it to be.

By the way what does fighting have to do with this post and where did I say I got in a fight?

Regards

GinSueDog
10-23-2000, 06:40 PM
Well Paul Vunak was a little out there at one point in his life. I do know that he is into herbs, and natural medicine. I don't know if he believes or developes chi though. I do know that most JKD guys are into things they consider practical, most are show me kinda guys. Here is a story I was told, whether it's true or not I couldn't tell you. When the SEALs first started looking for martial arts instructors they invited several along with inviting Paul Vunak to there base in San Diego. Anyways they told each martial artist to fight the largest SEAL there, if they were able to beat the SEAL, tey would get the Navy contract. Anyway Paul Vunak was the only one there that was able to beat the SEAL. An interesting story and it shows the type of mindset most JKD guys have. I know I am very much a show me kinda guy, if you can't prove how effective you claim to be, then I don't want to learn from you. I haven't studied under a formal JKD instructor in a little over two years now, but every martial art I've taken up since then I have applied the same mindset too and I consider a part of my JKD experience whether it's BJJ, Muay Thai, or Kali etc.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

rogue
10-23-2000, 07:11 PM
Whoa Black Jack, I'm not trying to put JKD down. I've never said it's a bad style or ineffective. The last place I trained (also the first place I took JKD), before switching to a more traditional art was a JKD school run by one of those SEALs that Vu trained and the only thing wrong with it was it was a bit too pricey after a while, which is the reason that I left that JKD school.

Do I have a problem with JKD? Yes, but it's purely philosophical. JKD is a style. It has a core curriculum that all the schools cover in pretty much the same manner. Lineage matters in JKD as much as in any CMA for legit instructors. But why can't many JKD people admit it's a style? I could be wrong, but tell me of one school or legit instructor who doesn't trace his lineage back to Inosanto and follow the basic JKD curriculum. And if they don't, what do they teach?

The question about how often you fight comes from the fact that you keep talking about fighting and how JKD is scientific street fighting. Are you in a bad neighborhood, work as a cop, a SEAL? Have you ever used your JKD in real life? Are you planning on looking for trouble so you can use it? So what are we training for? A situation that may or may not happen?

An internal stylist may gain more benefit in his every day life than you or I do from our arts that stress practical fighting.

Also I'd be the first to point out that most TKD schools bite the big Oscar Meyer. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I used to be daga

Black Jack
10-23-2000, 07:47 PM
**** post service...I wanted to edit a few of my lines as they did nto come across the way iwanted to write them and the servie would not let me back in to fix the *****!

So I apologize for coming across to strong as it was that was just a quick first draft and not the one I wanted to post.

I agree with a number of things you say about JKD 100%. I think that a number of JKD schools can be off the wall in the terms of price and I am not the kind of guy who likes to pay $150 a month for lessions no matter what is being taught.

I also think that JKD in some circles has become on the verge of transforming into a eclectic set system...though a very effective one at that...a number of concept schools are very Kali focused and there is a reason for this as we have discussed in previous posts.

But at its heart JKD Concepts is just that a concept that is not limited to any style and anyone can use its methods...in fact I would say that more than have the people on this board including yourself follow the concept approach in spirit by crosstraining and using what is using for you.

Even at my JKD gym I have found certain defenses that I deem are not to my liking but hey you look for the truth where you can and I know that what I have learned can be applied to any art I now take or have taken to fit into the areas that I see fit as to what is street effective for me and what is not...be it kung fu, karate or kempo.

I have been in a number of fights before...I got through college as a RepoMan and it gave me all kinds of scary moments to think about.

I live in a very yuppy area and its in the burbs but I train as if I lived in the worst area of Chicago because no matter where you live you never know when the **** may hit the fan. Vunack has stated that you should train as if you were a prisoner in a maximum security state prison and that your life may always be on the line if you are not ready.

To me I think everyone should train as if it is for a life or death situation. As the old saying goes the more you bleed in training the less you will bleed in war or something like that.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards

rogue
10-24-2000, 04:15 AM
We're cool Black Jack. I tend to forget that tone of voice is sometimes lost on the keyboard. In regards to living in Yuppy land, my last fight was at a kids soccer game. The short version of the fight is I got eye jabbed, he accidently got hit by my forearm, tripped over my leg and went boom. The fight was pretty much knocked out of both of us in I'm guessing about 5 seconds. I ended up with two weeks of teary eyes, a runny nose and light sensitivity, from what I'm told he was on his back watching the clouds go by and bleeding from the mouth. So watch out for them darn yuppies, some of them have a bit of fight in them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I used to be daga

Black Jack
10-24-2000, 05:27 AM
I wanted to add on the TKD aspect that I respect any person who trains hard and for a practical street self defense purpose as you most certainly do.

I know of a old school TKD guy here in Lombard that is a ex-korean military special forces combat instructor who is like a 8th degree black belt in a system of TKD and is just frigging fast with his hands and elbows.

The guy is about 58 years old and is in great shape and is just amazing to behold...I would bet there is not a ounce of fat on his body. The guy is all about kicking ass and there are no high kicks in the system and he realy trains the very neglected close quarter combat aspect of his style.

I would bet that this is because of the field striped verison of his system that was taught to the military at the time. His footwork had more of a alive energy to it...almost boxer like and he landed two body jabs on me and a elbow to the chest with very little work.

A guy like that no matter what the system just deserves respect and TKD could only hope to have more like him in its pasture.

As for the fight you had at the child sporting event...man that area of life is fast becoming a battle ground of nutball parents and rampant fist a cuffs between adults.

In Juptier FL, parents now have to pass a good behavior test to go the games!

Regards

reemul
11-12-2000, 01:30 PM
So tell me, what great fighters did bruce fight
to prove the superiority of JKD. I know of one fight with Wong, which both sides claim victory with a third party who claim a draw. I know of a few nobodies challenging bruce to a fight on movie sets, which proved very little. So tell me what champions did bruce fight. I know of another little story where some buisiness men brought Bruce to a Tong in San Francisco in which Bruce met a shaolin master and backed down after trying to initiate a demonstration.

Ya know I like Bruce Lee's movies too, but I do know how to separate the myth from the man.

Twinsen
11-18-2000, 03:40 AM
Greetings my friends,

JKD is just a name. It is almost like a mixed art. Just like Bruce lee said "Be water". It could fit in any kind of art like internal or external.

~Guybrush~
"I am a water"

kenpoman
11-20-2000, 03:59 AM
"Dude you should get the black pjs they look way cooler...they got that kenpo badboy look to them that just says..."I have arrived"."

I have black pj's!!!!