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Sam Wiley
11-29-2000, 09:09 AM
Some questions for all you Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practicioners out there: Which "style" of the art would you recommend and why? Which would you consider to be the most effective and complete when it comes to groundfighting? Are there any organisations to avoid and why? What are the differences between the different organisations/schools (such as the Gracies', Moreira's, etc)?

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

illusionfist
11-29-2000, 10:28 AM
I would like to know this too because i have heard that there are different lineages or factions withing the BJJ style, some being within the gracie family. I heard the differences are mainly based on agression factors and little stylistic differences, but for the most part they are the same. Is this true.

Peace out /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jojitsu27
11-29-2000, 03:36 PM
From my experience of training, there are three branches.....generic Brazilian Jujitsu, Gracie Jujitsu, and Machado Jujitsu.
People who teach or practice generic Brazilian Jujitsu learned it from a source other than the Machado or Gracie family (there are other brazilian jujitsu people). The Machado's are cousines of the Gracies who learned the art from Helio Gracie and have made some subtle differences in the art, otherwise it is the same thing.....it's all brazilian jujitsu.
The Machado's have more upright positioning on the ground, mainly because they seemed to be more focused on tournament jujitsu, while the Gracie system seems focused on both tournaments and practical self defense.
If you are learning a generic Brazilian Jujitsu system that the teacher doesn't have any connections in Brazil, you are going to be somewhat behind on new developments and techniques.
The guys in Brazil are always developing new techniques and counters to counters to counters and that type of stuff.
Any other BJJ guys out there can feel free to step in and help me out some, becuase I am no authority on BJJ.
-jojitsu27

MaFuYee
11-29-2000, 04:41 PM
was this post started in hopes of creating a little squabbling amongst the BJJ crowd???

in that case...

machado is worlds better than that gracie garbage... the gracies should just pack it up and retire!

machado rules!!!

Paul DiMarino
11-29-2000, 04:54 PM
Actually, Jo's a little off. All the styles he named are ALL straight from Brazil and are very closely related to each other. The name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" was trademarked by Rorion Gracie, so all that name means is that you are one of his students. From what I hear he has a unique teaching style and is rather good.

The Machado brothers learned their jiu-jitsu from an academy outside of Rio known as Gracie Barra. Gracie Barra is run by Carlos Gracie Jr who is the father of Renzo Gracie and the son of Carlos Gracie Sr who is the first Gracie to learn Jiu-jitsu/Judo from Maeda. Since Rorion has a trademark on the name and they are not Gracie's, they use the name "Machado Jiu-Jitsu".

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu means that the instructor is not a Gracie pretty much. I study at a school that teaches "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" yet my instructor is a black belt from Gracie Barra and cousins with Renzo. All the other Gracie's that are not aligned w/Rorion (ie everybody except Royce pretty much) have to use their full names. Rickson teaches "Rickson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", Renzo teaches "Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", etc. Rorion's greed has definately made things difficult in the States. Over in Brazil, it's just all jiu-jitsu.

Brazilian, Gracie, and Machado Jiu-jitsu are all umbrella terms referring to a different "styles" of jiu-jitsu. Just like every boxer has his own unique style but still remains in the framework of boxing; every jiu-jitsu academy has it's own style and it's students have their own fighting style as well. The Carlson Gracie camp (Mario Sperry, Vitor Belfort, etc) have a heavy vale tudo focus and train a lot without the gi. The Gracie Barra (Renzo, Rodrigo, Ryan Gracie, the Machado's, etc) camp trains an aggressive BJJ style. Helio Gracie's camp (Rickson, Royce, etc) is well, I dunno. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There are definately a lot more similarities than differences amongst the different academies, and you will pretty much learn the same thing no matter where you go.

To see the lineage and expansion of GJJ/BJJ go to:

http://bjj.org/jjitsu/training.html

This is a list (although not up-to-date) of JJ lineage black belts.

jojitsu27
11-29-2000, 06:10 PM
And pauls definitly right about each school being different.
For example, the school I train at, the instructor is certified from from the Gracie academy in Torrence, but he is also an instrucor in Sambo and Catch-as-catch-can. So we definitly have a style all of our own and do things different than most BJJ people.
Paul, I really do think there is a difference between Machado Jujitsu and Gracie Jujitsu.
I have seen both, and there are aparent differences that seem to be common to the style not just schools. Machado's use a different guard escape than the Gracies, or at least prefer a different one, and when a Machado person has someone in side control or a mount it seems like they their torso's are much higher off the ground than Gracie Jujitsu.
Gracie's seem to like to stay much closer to the body of their opponent.
-jojitsu27

Sam Wiley
11-29-2000, 06:16 PM
Actually, I don't want to start anything between them at all. Despite all my comments about "rolling in the mud like a dog" I have developed an interest in the art. I simply want to study the best and most complete version. I asked if there were any organizations I should avoid because I know there are a lot of crappy Gung Fu schools in the area I prefer not to have dealings with, and just wanted to know if there were any BJJ schools that were similar. (I have been to several schools of other martial arts in the Atlanta area, and have friends who have been to others. In my visits, I have yet to be greeted politely, and my friends have all related similar experiences. Strange that the really polite people I have met from other schools have been from out of state.)

Anyway, there doesn't seem to be all that much fighting between BJJ schools. They all seem to work together on several different levels. That's cool. In fact, after checking out several web sites this morning, I found that different schools that, if they were Gung Fu schools, would be competing, seem to support each other.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

Sam Wiley
11-29-2000, 06:18 PM
Also, I have heard only good things about the leaders of the different schools in BJJ. That says something right there.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

GinSueDog
11-29-2000, 06:28 PM
Personally, for me it comes down to only two factors as I consider most BJJ branches the same with the only real difference in the instruction. The first difference that I see is to train with a Gi or without a Gi. I prefer to train without a Gi, I did train for a short time at Joe Moreira's in Newport with a Gi, but after trying it without there is a big difference for me anyways. The second factor I see are the other aspects that can make BJJ more well rounded, the addition of leg locks, wrestling takedowns, throws and sweeps, etc. That is up to the individual instructor and his experience and seems to have little to do with whether he trained with a Gracie or a Machado. I think the biggest problem for most BJJ stylist is trying to take someone skilled in styles like wrestling or shooto or even a skill striker that is familiar with the ground game to the ground, once there though BJJ pretty much has the upper hand. If you are checking out various BJJ schools make sure you ask the instructor from whom did he get his blackbelt and check out the name on www.bjj.org (http://www.bjj.org), it should be listed there for hte most part.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 11-30-00 at 11:38 AM.]

Paul DiMarino
11-29-2000, 06:29 PM
Jo,

Which Gracie's? Just because they have the name Gracie doesn't mean they all have the same teacher or are brothers. The Machado's learned from Carlos Gracie Jr who learned from his father, Carlos Gracie Sr. The Machado's, Renzo Gracie, Ryan Gracie, Cesar, and Ralph Gracie all learned from the same teacher. Rickson, Royce, Rorion, and Royler Gracie are all sons and students of Helio Gracie. Different teachers, different Academies, different approaches.

Sam Wiley,

The best bet is to find a black belt from Brazil. I know there is one in Atlanta, but I can't remember the name off hand. No one school is "better" than the other. The difference is really in what teachniques are prefferred. For example, some schools like standing guard passes as opposed to kneeling guard passes. They are both equally effective. I've yet to hear of animosity of one academy towards another. There may be some rivalry, but it is usually a friendly rivalry that pushes the students to excel even more.

Sam Wiley
11-29-2000, 06:56 PM
I can't remember his real name, but his nickname is "the Alligator." I found his name on bjj.org this morning. I'm going to try to stop by there and check him out, but it may not be for a while because I'm a little tied up right now.

Please don't start arguing about BJJ though. I didn't mean to start that.

I feel I have the best stand up art, and I want the best groundfighting art, and BJJ seems to be the best for on the ground.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

Paul DiMarino
11-29-2000, 07:18 PM
If he was on BJJ.org, then it's probably the right guy. I wasn't arguing with Jo; just clarifying. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Heh!

shenwu disciple
11-30-2000, 03:02 AM
Ya all are thinking about Romero "Jacare" Cavalcanti. He is one of five people that recieved their black belt from Rolls Gracie. He's also the founder of the Alliance team. Jacare is from the old school, so I think he's got a good balance of self-defence, sport bjj, and vale tudo knowledge.

As far as joining associations, I'd ask myself how I would benefit by joining.

From what his students say, Rorion seems to focus more on self-defence than sport bjj or vale tudo. So the stuff they teach/practice is very basic. The reason being is that in sport bjj and vale tudo, you assume that your opponent has just as much knoledge as you do, so the same old stuff won't work. Most bjj schools don't require you to join an assoc. and are usually quite friendly. Happy hunting.

Paul DiMarino
11-30-2000, 03:12 PM
Oh man. I didn't know that was Jacare in Atlanta. Sam, you definately couldn't go wrong with him. Thanks Shen Wu disciple. Hope all is good with Tim in Cali.

FYI, I wasn't trying to bash Rorion when I called him greedy. Re-reading my post, I thought it might be construed that way. I still respect him 100% as a martial artist and teacher.

Valraven
11-30-2000, 04:11 PM
Paul is right. It all came from the Gracies.

shenwu disciple
12-01-2000, 02:24 AM
You're welcome Paul...and I'm not one of Tim's students in Cali. I belong to the New Mexico branch.

How are things w/Joe and Roberto? Did you do the right thing and join that San Shou school /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Sam, I like your idea for president. We should let Clinton stay another four years and bar Gore and Bush from running for office. Keep us posted on Jacare's school. Maybe you could teach us a few things about grappling in a couple of months.