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red5angel
08-22-2002, 01:33 PM
No really, I work out at the local renaissance festival doing security and in the morning I did taichi in a kilt and in the evening I did wingchun in a kilt. Nothing sexier then a man doing martial arts in a kilt right ladies?

Mojo
08-22-2002, 01:38 PM
Thank god there are no high kicks in those arts !

rubthebuddha
08-22-2002, 01:40 PM
yeah, bt wc has a slant kick in which the kicker opens the hips and ...

EEWWWW. Red5! put that thing away!

red5angel
08-22-2002, 01:47 PM
LOL! dont worry I wasnt going regimentall this weekend so everything was tucked away.....

KC Elbows
08-22-2002, 02:00 PM
Red5, are you scottish? Why on earth would you tuck with a kilt?

If ye're a scut, ye've gut some answuring ta do, year willies not a gerbil, ya don go lockin the boy up, remember the scots c0ck is a prouuud thing, now leat that boy free and dreenk a wee glen levitz, before I heedbutt yur ugly face.

GeneChing
08-22-2002, 02:08 PM
Master Tu doing Iron Crotch Truck Pull at our 10 Year Anniversary Free Show this Satruday wears a kilt when he pulls. I'm told he will let a few select people check his goods to vailidate that he is in fact using his goods to pull...

Sorry, it's not often that you can contribute to a martial arts in a kilt thread and plug the party at the same time so I had to go for it. :rolleyes:

red5angel
08-22-2002, 02:11 PM
KC LOL! My moms a Scot, I am first generation american, and I have a small confession, I love Bass ale.......I feel so dirty...... Besdies can you see me having to respond to someone with a medical need while a nice updraft hits and "ma willie goes frrrrree?!Ach!"

ROFLMAO@ Gene!!!!

KC Elbows
08-22-2002, 02:17 PM
Gene,
Are you aware that you hold some sort of record for most plugs involving john thomases and weight lifting? Give yourself a KFO keychain!:D

Mojo
08-22-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
I am first generation american, and I have a small confession


confession ? is that what scotsmen call their p*nis ?

red5angel
08-22-2002, 02:20 PM
Mojo, dont make me feed you haggis!!! Better yet I will tie you down and make you listen to bagpipes for 24 hours straight!!!

KC Elbows
08-22-2002, 02:20 PM
"can you see me having to respond to someone with a medical need while a nice updraft hits and "ma willie goes frrrrree?!Ach!""

They'll take one look at yur wee willy and thank god that he sent a scot to save 'em!

red5angel
08-22-2002, 02:24 PM
THATS IT!!!!! KC you and me is throwin on the kilts and having a sexy knee contest baby!!!!! I will of course have to wear a longer kilt but I can lift it up so the judges can see my knees!!!! ;) Did I mention I have to put stones in my sporran to keep my kilt down? ;)

wufupaul
08-22-2002, 02:33 PM
http://161.58.5.90/axe/martarts.wav

GeneChing
08-22-2002, 02:38 PM
Yeah baby.
You know, in all honesty, I have the highest respect fro Master Tu. He's awesome. And I've been honored to bring his story to the West. It's easy to joke about his skill, but think about it. This guy pulls trucks. That's pretty intense and only part of his training. His kungfu is solid, fast and powerful. So now, I always take fighters in kilts seriously. ;)

red5angel
08-22-2002, 02:42 PM
Thats right baby, you would be smart to take us kilt wearing martial artist seriously. ANY man who can put on a skirt and step up has my respect!

AndyM
08-22-2002, 03:49 PM
If I suspect for one minute you guys are taking the proverbial out of Scotland (again), you'll be eating the contents of my sporran. :D

TaoBoy
08-22-2002, 04:35 PM
I got a bad mental image when I read the subject line - now it's burned into my brain. AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!

dezhen2001
08-22-2002, 11:45 PM
AndyM: Are you and me the only Scots actually on this thread? :D

As for the knee contest, the kilt should cover the top 1/2 of your knee anyway... never used the term 'regimental' for being a Scot and wearing a kilt ;)

david

phoenix-eye
08-23-2002, 05:05 AM
Naw - I'm Scottish too.

These boys think they're hard cos they do Kung Fu....... Tell them to come over to Dundee for a drink on a Friday. Then the'll really need to prove how hard they are.......

We only wear kilts so the really hard blokes think we're girls and won't hit us......

Cipher
08-23-2002, 06:45 AM
:eek: if someone can pull a truck with their jimmy then I hope they beleive in celebacy. I don't think that is something I could ever give up. A package of steel would be cool though but not if it becomes a package of useless steel.

:rolleyes: @ myself

KC Elbows
08-23-2002, 06:57 AM
Well, those who are scottish by nationality sure seem a little elitist towards those of us scottish by blood.

Isn't elitism an english thing?:p :D

My genes are a fine hybrid of only the best beer drinking folk in the world: scottish, irish, german. However, I understand that the scots I'm descended from were unruly brutes, and not upscale domesticated scots like we have on this thread.:p

hehehe

red5angel
08-23-2002, 07:08 AM
May parents are scottish and I have been listening to Bagpipe music at work for the last two days straight, doesnt that count?! :) Besides, I WAS practicing kungfu in a kilt, how much more scottish can I be without the brogue (SP?). How about this, when my uncle gets drunk, you cant understand a **** word he is saying, even those of his brothers and sisters who grew up in scotland!
Hey KC, My family descended from a long line of Border Reivers, the turncoat *******s!

Dezhen, I had to explain the kilt length thing here last weekend. I dont know how you guys tell it but here we tell em if its above the knee its a skirt, if its below the knee its a dress.......

guohuen
08-23-2002, 07:24 AM
Many of us Cherokee of mixed blood are also Scottish. Myself, I can wear the tartans of the Lamont's, MacLeod's, MacFarlane's and MacGregor's. I've thought of making a kilt that's a quarter each and putting a Cherokee star in the center.

ewallace
08-23-2002, 07:33 AM
If a terrorist were half palestinian and half jewish do you think he would try and blow up half of himself?

Helicopter
08-23-2002, 07:33 AM
Sounds like a quilt not a Kilt.

guohuen
08-23-2002, 07:55 AM
Hehe!

dezhen2001
08-23-2002, 08:12 AM
Red5angel: Yup that's pretty much what we say :D
ewallace: ur crazy :p
KC: not elitist, or unruly brutes, and not upscale domesticated scots either ;)

There was a reason the romans built a big wall to keep us out, and it's not our smell ;)

Guohuen: that sounds pretty mad! didn't know you were part Cherokee :)

david

KC Elbows
08-23-2002, 08:25 AM
"There was a reason the romans built a big wall to keep us out, and it's not our smell"

Yes it was. The romans were just too nice to tell us so. That's also why Al Gore invented the internet: minimize physical contact with scots. The space race was also an attempt to find a scot free zone, but nasa discovered that the only people who could survive on a barren rock were scots, so there went that dream.

fa_jing
08-23-2002, 08:33 AM
Ewallace, that reminds me of a joke my brother came up many years ago when we were smoking a bowl on a unused rail bridge. The topic was mixed heritage, our friend was mixed Jewish and Italian, so my brother was talking about us being Jewish and German. "I don't know whether to get rich or kill myself" :D

dezhen2001
08-23-2002, 08:36 AM
KC: actually the landmass that is Scotland came from around Nova Scotia... so maybe ur trying to get away form Candaians! :eek:

david

red5angel
08-23-2002, 08:38 AM
LOL@ Helicopter!

Guohen, your half scot/cherokee too?! LOL! Right now I am learning the cherokee language and I am trying to figure out how to do it in a Scottish accent to be fair to both my parents!!!


By the way, you guys want to hear some really kick a$$ bagpipe playing check out the Bagpipes and Drums of the Emerald Society Chicago Police." They are awesome!!!!

KC Elbows
08-23-2002, 09:13 AM
Dez,
I am trying to get away from canadians, but not scots. After all, only among scots can I not smell myself.:eek:

dezhen2001
08-23-2002, 09:40 AM
KC: good point :)

david

Serpent
08-25-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by KC Elbows
"There was a reason the romans built a big wall to keep us out, and it's not our smell"

Yes it was. The romans were just too nice to tell us so. That's also why Al Gore invented the internet: minimize physical contact with scots. The space race was also an attempt to find a scot free zone, but nasa discovered that the only people who could survive on a barren rock were scots, so there went that dream.

LOL! I'm Scottish and I'm loving this thread. I always wondered why we never had a base built near Fort William for the next stage of the space race...

guohuen
08-25-2002, 09:48 PM
A Scotsman flies to Boston to visit his American cousin. He wants his cousin to show him real American entertainment so they decide to go to a Redsox game. On the way to Fenway Park the American is quickly explaining the rules of the game. It's a Redsox Yankees game and the American is explaining the rivalry and promising a good game. At the bottom of the first inning the sox come to bat and the Scotsman is exited to cheer his cousins team. The first batter hits a line drive between first and second base and the Scotsman jumps up and yells "Run laddy, run like the wind!". The runner safely makes it to first. The next batter takes a ball, then two, then three, then four and starts walking to first. The Scotsman jumps up and yells "Run ya lazy ba$tard!". His cousin jumps up quickly and says "No, no, you don't understand! He has four balls. He has to walk." The Scotsman contemplates a moment , says "Oohh" and yells "Walk with pride laddy! Walk with pride!".

GeneChing
09-16-2002, 10:04 AM
www.utilikilts.com

Colin
09-16-2002, 10:32 AM
Well Dave,
I'm Scots too! So that makes 4 Scots by birth, and about 10 by blood on here.
Just about enough to take over the forum me thinks!

I demo'd some kung fu in a kilt once too! and the ladies do love it!

Cailean..........

Dale Dugas
06-15-2007, 02:21 AM
Anyone else out there wear a kilt?

I have 2 of them from Utlilikilts which was founded by my ex girlfriend and her partner in Seattle. Great kilts!!

They are modern adaptations!

Gene and others at the Zhang Sang Feng Festival got to see me don the kilt and sell a lot of dit da jow.

Anyone else like a cool breeze across their nether regions??

Be well,

Dale

GeneChing
06-15-2007, 11:00 AM
Just goes to show you how much the Zhang San Feng Festival (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44840) can inspire... :confused:

sanjuro_ronin
06-15-2007, 11:06 AM
Anyone else out there wear a kilt?

I have 2 of them from Utlilikilts which was founded by an ex girlfriend and her partner in Seattle. Great kilts!!

They are modern adaptations!

Gene and others at the Zhang Sang Feng Festival got to see me don the kilt and sell a lot of dit da jow.

Anyone else like a cool breeze across their nether regions??

Be well,

Dale


My eyes !!
:eek:

Dale Dugas
06-15-2007, 01:09 PM
Real men wear em, and girls love em....

Besides pants suck.

I got yelled at my last job for wearing it as they told me you are not allowed to wear a skirt. My boss being a lady, I wanted to say to her then you are not allowed to wear pants with that kind of thought processing. But I didnt want to lose the gig at that time so I tittered and changed back into the dreaded pants....

YiLiQuan1
06-15-2007, 02:34 PM
Though I only have one, I wear a kilt as well. I'm firmly convinced that I need to replace all my bifurcated garments with properly designed and male-intended clothing...

Only real men wear kilts... Men that won't are simply too afraid to do so.

The arguments in favor of kilts are far greater than those against. If my boss tried to tell me I couldn't wear a kilt because it was a skirt I'd run straight to the nearest EO representative and lodge a formal complaint. :mad:

Local highland games are next week... I can't wait!

Dale Dugas
06-15-2007, 02:38 PM
I did, and was told that the dress code forbids me to wear it.

No biggie that women were telling me this. Oh well, Im done with that company and now work for an adult day care center driving clients to and from the center while I attend nursing school at night.

Ill be making more money soon than the old boss and I get to wear scrubs....

Bifurcation sucks.

More photos to come.

Be well,

Dale

Dale Dugas
06-18-2007, 10:53 AM
I cannot believe there are no other kilt wearers on the forum.

You guys need to experience the freedom!!!!!!!!!!

YiLiQuan1
06-18-2007, 12:16 PM
I cannot believe there are no other kilt wearers on the forum.

You guys need to experience the freedom!!!!!!!!!!

Some people study martial arts because they're into culture.

Some people study martial arts because they want to show others how rough and tough they are.

Some people are just rough and tough and into culture, and they study martial arts anyway...

Those that decry kilts are simply too insecure to wear one themselves. Kilts are the traditional garb of "real men" worldwide. Hell, the Scots wore them to battle as recently as WWI! :cool:

Pants are the traditional garb of women... They're designed for them, were worn by them first, and continue to fit them far better than they fit men.

Can't wait to finish replacing my non-mandatory bifurcated garments with proper men's wear!

GeneChing
06-21-2007, 03:57 PM
A friend of mine wore a kilt to my wedding. And I've been to another wedding where the groom wore a kilt. I know a few kilt wearers in the music scene here. But keep in mind, here is S.F.

Dale Dugas
06-22-2007, 03:05 PM
Gene,

Nothing better to bring people to the Martial Arts Mart vending table then if you are wearing a kilt.

Worked for me, and it can work for you.

Shaolin Wookie
06-23-2007, 09:28 AM
If you're wearing a kilt, where do you put your wallet?

If your friend decides to pop up, what happens?


Both serious questions.

Shaolin Wookie
06-23-2007, 09:28 AM
And.....do you chap in the winters?

YiLiQuan1
06-23-2007, 09:41 AM
If you're wearing a kilt, where do you put your wallet?

In your sporran, or your wife's purse.


If your friend decides to pop up, what happens?

That's also what your sporran is for! :D


Both serious questions.

Both serious answers...

GeneChing
06-28-2007, 09:57 AM
Caught this in the SF Chron two daze ago. Thought of ya, Dale...


Scots Forced to Prove Origins of Sporran (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/26/international/i103546D00.DTL&hw=sporran&sn=001&sc=1000)
By BEN MCCONVILLE
Tuesday, June 26, 2007
(06-26) 10:35 PDT EDINBURGH, Scotland (AP)

It's considered rude to ask a Scotsman what he keeps in his sporran, but now kilt wearers may be forced to produce licenses that show their traditional purses aren't made from endangered wildlife.

New legislation in the European Union says the owner of any sporran made later than 1994 has to prove that the animal was not endangered or killed illegally. The law is aimed at protecting wild animals such as badgers, otters, hedgehogs and wild cats.

"I have been inundated with calls from customers worried they are now breaking the law," said Malcolm Scott of Edinburgh sporran makers William Scott & Sons. "I haven't seen an otter sporran in 40 years and we stopped using badger about 30 years ago. What they really should be concentrating on is foreign-made sporrans, which are killing this traditional industry."

The sporran is a leather or fur purse that hangs just below the belt buckle of full Highland dress. Although its contents are often a mystery, Scotsmen often keep a flask of whisky in it.

The ruling has sent the industry into a spin as sporran makers and Highland dress shops are trying to determine if their products fall under the ban. The maximum fine for breaking the law is nearly $10,000 or six months in jail.

Scott & Son employs 20 craftsmen producing more than 2,000 sporrans a year, that are sold around the world from Alaska to Australia. Scott said his sporrans were made from legally sourced seal hide or synthetic materials.

More macho than a man bag, the sporran's origins are in the medieval belt pouches. But it also serves the purpose of protecting the wearer's modesty, especially if he is upholding the tradition of wearing nothing beneath the kilt.

"The law is really aimed at taxidermists, but sporrans do fall into the same bracket," said a spokesman for the Scottish Executive, Scotland's devolved government, on condition of anonymity in line with government policy.

"We are talking about protecting species such as badger and otter. Anyone who has a sporran made of these animals or a stuffed animal which they perhaps inherited should make sure they have proof of where it came from."

Dale Dugas
06-28-2007, 01:42 PM
Thanks Gene!!

Ill be sending you an article your way soon about being a first time teacher at the ZSF.

Be well,

Dale

Samurai Jack
07-03-2007, 12:53 AM
That's not a kilt Dale! That is a manskirt!

See kilts are, by definition made with a clansman's tartan. If you aren't clan affiliated, you can sometimes get away with wearing a military or sport tartan, although legitimate members of the team/service you got it from might take exception... no tartan = no kilt.

From the Utilikilt website:

"It is often suggested that Utilikilts* brand utility kilts are not 'real kilts.' This is 100% TRUE!

'Real Kilts' are defined as: 'A knee-length skirt with deep pleats, usually of a tartan wool, worn as part of the dress for men in the Scottish Highlands.'

Utilikilts* brand utility kilts, on the other hand, are manskirts..."

And why, do you ask, have I gone to all the trouble to point this out?

Because I'm JEALOUS. I've been saving up for my clan kilt for ages, and something always comes up. At least those Utilikilts are affordable.

Plus I like thinking of Dale in a "manskirt".

Don't ask why.

Dale Dugas
07-03-2007, 02:45 AM
Yeah my own mothers clan tartan for me would be an investment of 3 grand or more to have it made.

Plus my exgirlfriend founded Utilikilts with her boyfriend in Seattle and I like being in a six degrees of separation connection with them....

YiLiQuan1
07-03-2007, 11:34 AM
The requirement of kilts to be fashioned from clan tartans is the result of bad history and cultural urban legend.

First, kilts aren't the historical garment of Highland Scots. There's no real historical basis for the wearing of kilts prior to the 16th century (which means "Braveheart" was wholly inaccurate, showing 13th century Scots wearing 16th century garments).

Second, the tartans of the 16th century were made from whatever material was on hand, or more importantly whatever material you could afford. By the 18th century, tartan color schemes had become quite varied and vivid.

Third, it wasn't until about 30 years after the end of the Jacobite rebellion that clans started creating their own tartan patterns (c. 1800).

Fourth, it was the resurgence of Scottish pride in the 19th century that led to the fad of Scots wanting to know what "their" clan tartan was. Out of this grew the false notion that to wear a kilt, the tartan "must" be a clan tartan. The history of kilt wear in the first place does not support such an idea.

Bottom line - wear kilts (because real men wear them and they are a traditional manly garment), and wear them in whatever color or tartan you like. I got my first one from www.sportkilt.com, as they're affordable, washable, and now they adhere even more closely to traditional styling while still being more affordable than anyone else.

Enjoy.

GeneChing
07-03-2007, 11:41 AM
Ill be sending you an article your way soon about being a first time teacher at the ZSF. We're not really interested in that subject. It's too specific. We're already doing coverage of TJL. Alas, you should have come to my talk. I went to yours (well, I took some pics ;)). Anyway, here's our submission guidelines. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php) We'd be interested in something *fresh* on Iron Palm.

Dale Dugas
07-03-2007, 11:48 AM
We're not really interested in that subject. It's too specific. We're already doing coverage of TJL. Alas, you should have come to my talk. I went to yours (well, I took some pics ;)). Anyway, here's our submission guidelines. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php) We'd be interested in something *fresh* on Iron Palm.

Being a one man show I wanted to make the most of my vending time at the festival. I do apologize for not going. I know My brother Bob Maio went so I will have to pick his brain...

Ill be emailing you off forum to chat about a fresh take on iron palm.

Dale

GeneChing
07-03-2007, 02:05 PM
I'm just teasing. I know how busy you were there. Actually, Dr. Painter gave me grief because he told Bob to attend and then I talked about other stuff than just straight up "how to get an article published in KFTC".

Email is the best way to handle any article queries.

Becca
07-20-2007, 12:30 PM
Do women wear sporans? I noticed the Sport Kilts have women's kilts. But nothing was said about women's sporans. Does this meen women don't wear them?

Mano Mano
07-23-2007, 12:03 PM
For those members of forum who donít happen to be of Highland Scotís decent you donít need to despair as you can also get Irish (http://kiltstore.net/browse/mens-wear/kilts/irish-kilts.html?theme=highlandwear) kilts & Northumberland (http://www.northumberlandtartan.co.uk/history.html) kilts & believe it of not, even Welsh (http://kiltstore.net/browse/mens-wear/kilts/welsh-kilts.html?theme=highlandwear) kilts.

Wood Dragon
07-24-2007, 08:03 AM
Growing up in Scotland (Coatbridge, ya bass!), kilts were conspicuous by their absence.

It is not the Scottish national costume, but that of the Highlanders (teuchters, or illiterate people who habitually marry their cousins).

People from the Lowlands (the vast majority of the Scottish population, centering on the Glasgow-Edinburgh Corridor) wear Trews (think Levi 501's made of tartan) as their ancestral costume.

Very few people choose to wear either, for the same reason few Italians wear togas or tunicas these days: it looks anachronistic.

If you want to get in touch with your Scottish heritage, buy Irn-Bru* by the case and eat deep fried Mars Bars.


*- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irn-bru

Mano Mano
07-25-2007, 08:37 AM
If you want to get in touch with your Scottish heritage, buy Irn-Bru* by the case and eat deep fried Mars Bars.
I'm more of a fried double decker man myself, do take whiskey or vodka with your Irn-Bru.

Wood Dragon
07-25-2007, 10:25 AM
do take whiskey or vodka with your Irn-Bru.

HERETIC!!!!!!!

Irn-Bru should not be polluted with lesser beverages.

Mano Mano
07-25-2007, 01:15 PM
HERETIC!!!!!!!

Irn-Bru should not be polluted with lesser beverages.
Your not far wrong, I’m a Geordie.

Wood Dragon
07-25-2007, 10:00 PM
Your not far wrong, Iím a Geordie.

Despite that, you've learned English very well.

Mano Mano
08-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mano Mano
Your not far wrong, I’m a Geordie.

Despite that, you've learned English very well.

thanx, I happen to be multilingual; I speak not only English & Geordie but Macem, Pitmatic & Borders, if ye ken.

David Jamieson
01-28-2009, 05:12 AM
I got married in one and have played a gig or two wearing a kilt.

aut pax aut bellum! Och Aye!

:p

GeneChing
07-20-2009, 12:40 PM
gotta check this place out...
Tilted Kilt (http://www.tiltedkilt.com/index.html)

Oso
07-24-2009, 08:22 PM
DJ, what the hell were you looking for when you dug this old thread up???

Dale in a 'manskirt'?

:p

that's cool...be free, man...be free

;)

Mr Punch
08-01-2009, 09:36 AM
I like a bit of tartan...

but not too much.

Mr Punch
08-01-2009, 09:48 AM
Still want to know what's under them, mind.

Lee Chiang Po
08-01-2009, 10:50 PM
We don't allow no men folk to wear women's clothes around here. Do you wear one of them little purses in front?

Vash
08-02-2009, 05:17 AM
LCP . . . you fail Scotland . . . Forever!

S_J . . . where do you get those wonderful toys?

sha0lin1
08-06-2009, 07:20 PM
I have a funny kilt story. When I was in college a girl that I was seeing at the time and I were partying it up with my best friend and his girlfriend. Before we went our separate ways we had agreed to meet at my place in the morning and then go out to breakfast. Well the time arrived and passed, we waited about 30 more minutes, they did not show or answer their phones, so figuring that they were still passed out from the festivities of the night before, we decided that we were going to go and roust them out of bed. So we get to my friends place and knock, no answer, knock again louder, still no answer, so I check the door and find it unlocked. We knew they were there because their cars were in the drive so my coniving little brain quickly formulates a plan. We go in, and head for the bedroom, the door is closed and we could hear snoring coming from the room. So all of a sudden we rush in, flick on the lights, screaming at the top of our lungs. My friend and his girl almost hit the cieling they jumped up so fast, when he lands, there he is, dressed like a little school girl, with a plaid skirt, white socks, and a white oxford unbuttoned and tied in a little knot at the bottom. We were laughing so hard I almost ****ed my pants. I asked him, what the f@!$k are you wearing? And he says, what do you mean what am I wearing, I'm wearing a f@#$!*g kilt!
I will never forget that the rest of my life, it was so funny.

Boston Bagua
08-07-2009, 11:29 AM
kilts are cool and they are fun to wear.

Just watch out for candle wax......

Becca
08-07-2009, 11:57 AM
kilts are cool and they are fun to wear.

Just watch out for candle wax......

I really didn't want that mental image. Thanx.:eek:

David Jamieson
08-11-2009, 05:35 AM
I am entitled to wear a Gunn Clan Kilt (which I do) and I am also entitled to wear the Stewart Tartan. :)

We got's some blood in the family. :D

jdhowland
08-29-2009, 10:10 AM
My folks were lowlander Sassenachs (from both sides of the Channel) so I don't wear a tartan kilt. But there are options.

When I moved to Hawai'i in the 70s I lived for a time with my uncle who was a born and bred islander of Tahitian, Hawaiian and Danish descent living in a Samoan neighborhood in Nanakuli. He couldn't stand seeing me wear blue jeans in 95% humidity. He came home with a nice lava lava wrap-around skirt and ordered me to wear it. I liked it but thought it was only for wearing around the house until I saw the locals wearing them everywhere. I got used to it. The most comfortable clothing I've ever worn and the first time in my life my legs were tan instead of pale blue. I miss that lifestyle.

Now I'm back in my native Alaska where even the women don't wear skirts. Our former governer, Sarah Palin, doesn't count. She's from Idaho.

It's interesting how the military dress style of wearing tartans has become a sign of ethnic pride. I had a friend a the University of Hawai'i who looked pure Japanese. In name and appearance he could have been "fresh off da boat." But when U of H had an open house celebration he showed up in full tartan dress and played the bagpipes! Turns out, he had a Scottish grandmother and was very proud of that part of his heritage.

It's not a passing fad. The manly kilt is here to stay.

Just me, in long pants, reminiscing again as I head into my long subarctic night.

jd"Malienalu"howland

Joesg2
09-02-2009, 11:23 PM
Anyone else out there wear a kilt?

I have 2 of them from Utlilikilts which was founded by my ex girlfriend and her partner in Seattle. Great kilts!!

They are modern adaptations!

Gene and others at the Zhang Sang Feng Festival got to see me don the kilt and sell a lot of dit da jow.

Anyone else like a cool breeze across their nether regions??

Be well,

Dale

I wear kilts too but they are my clan tartan not a utilikilt but a kilt is a kilt are you scottish dale just wondering

Boston Bagua
09-09-2009, 01:36 PM
Im Scottish, English, Irish on my Moms side.

I have the right. Just not the cake to order me a tartan one.

Plus I can destroy the utilikilts and not feel bad about them.

Mr Punch
09-09-2009, 10:19 PM
Speaking as someone of pure Saxon and Gael (Irish and Scottish both) heritage (although that's a contradiction in terms!), and as someone who 'the right' to wear a couple of tartans along various ancestral lines, and who also has an English family crest (the coat of arms is long lost), I'd just like to point out that the whole clan tartan and 'right to wear' stuff dates only from the mid-1850s when posh Victorian Scots wanted to claim some family badge, and previous to that tartans were mostly plain one-colour affairs with the weave or any pattern if they had one associated not by clan, but by region.

So, as the direct descendent also of some rather colourful rogues (like an infamous Irish sheepstealer) but precious few legit knobs (although I am apparently descended from a son of Edward II, apparently he was a b@stard, just like his old man! :D ) I take this opportunity to moon my royal scumbag arse at all your high-faluting clan pretensions, the whole lot o ya!

:D

Ben Gash
09-10-2009, 04:35 AM
My folks were lowlander Sassenachs (from both sides of the Channel) What channel??? Sassenach means Saxon, and refers to (obviously) to anglo-saxons, conspicuously absent from the other side of the channel.
Mr Punch, I heard that the clan tartan thing was formulated for the visit of George IV to Edinburgh.

jdhowland
09-10-2009, 06:56 PM
What channel??? Sassenach means Saxon, and refers to (obviously) to anglo-saxons, conspicuously absent from the other side of the channel.

Glad you asked. The English Channel, of course.

"Anglo-Saxon" is just a made up latinized term meant to include the various tribes of Angles, Frisians, Saxons, Swedes, Jutes, etc., who migrated to Britain in large numbers during the so-called "Saxon invasion," (although some maintain that there was no military invasion, just more immigrants moving in among their germanic cousins who had been there for centuries). In other words, there never was a people who called themselves Anglo-Saxon. And they didn't all leave their ancestral homeland. In the Netherlands and parts of northern Germany (but not in the mis-named state of Sachsen) there are still speakers of a language known as Saksisch or Sassisch. It is now generally understood among linguists that Sassisch is not a dialect of German, but is more closely related to English and Scots. Northumbrian English still shows features akin to both OE and OS. The idea that Low Saxon is a dialect of German was political propaganda dreamed up during the period of pan-Germanism to assimilate the various cultures of the German states. It is no longer politically correct to call it Low German.

By the way, clothing found in Danish and Jutish bog graves shows that they were wearing plaid cloth 2000 years ago. But they wore trousers, even then.

Becca
09-11-2009, 06:13 AM
Glad you asked. The English Channel, of course.

"Anglo-Saxon" is just a made up latinized term meant to include the various tribes of Angles, Frisians, Saxons, Swedes, Jutes, etc., who migrated to Britain in large numbers during the so-called "Saxon invasion," The term only applied to those actually settled in Britton and only to Saxons (a germanic tribe), so they were not on "both side of the channel." They were primarily in Southern England. The Swedes and Jutes were called swedes and Jutes. Anglo is, quite literally, "English Speaking People." They didn't invade Britton; they were already there.:)

jdhowland
09-11-2009, 08:05 AM
The term only applied to those actually settled in Britton and only to Saxons (a germanic tribe), so they were not on "both side of the channel." They were primarily in Southern England. The Swedes and Jutes were called swedes and Jutes. Anglo is, quite literally, "English Speaking People." They didn't invade Britton; they were already there.:)

You know whereof you speak...um, scribe. True it is that Anglo-Saxon refers to those on the left side of the water. My original post stated that Sassenachs were on both sides of the water. Using the term loosely to refer to Saxish folk in gereral, it's still true.

Personally, I don't care for the designation Anglo-anything because it's Latinized. Call me Anglish.

When I applied for an ID card in Hawaii the form asked for ethnic descriptors. Actually, I think it asked for "race." It's all I can do to stop myself from writing "Human" in those cases. After going over their list of check-the-boxes which included several types of Asian ethnicities, different forms of "Hispanic," and a very large number of Pacific cultures, I found, at the bottom, a single box next to the word "Caucasian." I took the form up to the lady at the counter and told her politely that, since my ancestors had not been anywhere near those mountains for thousands of years, there was no proper box to mark. She said, "Oh, just write anything you like." So I wrote down something like "Seminole-Saxo-Frisian". Let the demographers deal with that.

jd

Becca
09-11-2009, 08:27 AM
You know whereof you speak...um, scribe. True it is that Anglo-Saxon refers to those on the left side of the water. My original post stated that Sassenachs were on both sides of the water. Using the term loosely to refer to Saxish folk in gereral, it's still true.
Yeah, but I wern't arguing with your use of Sassenach. It is indeed a Scots galic term for Saxon, later becomming a derogitory term for Englishman or non galic speaking scots lowlanders. I only disagreed with the Anglo-Saxon bit. Jutes were recognized as separate from the Saxons because thier cultures were actually very different.

Scotts did refer to all saxon tribes as Sassenachs, so saying you can claim sassenach blood from both sides of the pond is accurate. The bit on high and low german was also accurate.







And now you know one of my dirty little secrets: I'm fluent in clasic and vulger middle lattin, old and middle english and passably ok at decoding welsh, galic, and old french. I can safely blame my 10th grade English teacher and my colledge lit teacher for infecting me with the need to read things in ther original languge/original spelling. :)

jdhowland
09-11-2009, 10:27 AM
...And now you know one of my dirty little secrets: I'm fluent in clasic and vulger middle lattin, old and middle english and passably ok at decoding welsh, galic, and old french. I can safely blame my 10th grade English teacher and my colledge lit teacher for infecting me with the need to read things in ther original languge/original spelling. :)

Aha. That explains why you didn't criticize my mention of Scots as a germanic language.

Schottsch is 'n germaansche spraak. Schotts Gaalsch is 'n keltsche Spraak.

But you knew that.

Be well.

John

Becca
09-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Aha. That explains why you didn't criticize my mention of Scots as a germanic language.

Schottsch is 'n germaansche spraak. Schotts Gaalsch is 'n keltsche Spraak.

But you knew that.

Be well.

John

Yep. Only had a beef with the lumping of all germanic under Anglo-Saxon title. I won't go into the interesting side note of Anglii as a tribe and why "anglo" means english speaking.

I'm an egg head and proud of it.:D

jdhowland
09-11-2009, 11:18 AM
Yep. Only had a beef with the lumping of all germanic under Anglo-Saxon title. I won't go into the interesting side note of Anglii as a tribe and why "anglo" means english speaking.

Okay. But you do know that the Jutes were still a west germanic group and are sometimes pigeonholed with the Angles, Saxons and Frisians, right? The Danes came later and made the area a north germanic region. There are still remnants of Jutish in Denmark. The sloppy term Anglo-Saxon also tends to dismiss the Frisian influence in England.

What this has to do with kilts, I can't say. But I love tangents.

Carry on.

jd

Becca
09-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Depending on what part of germany they came from, yes. The problem with pigion-holing wandering tribes is that, well, they wander. Jutes had signifigantly different cultural differences. Same with the Saxons. The Frisians and the Angles could, and usually are, grouped together as Gauls. The scotts were gaulish. ;)

And what this has to do with kilts? Some say kilts existed in celtic society back to the iron age. Some say they didn't, that they wore long, belted tunics. Resonnaly, I don't care when they started wearing kilts. 250 years is enough time for a tradition to be called a tradition without getting into wether or not Braveheart should have been depicted in trews or a tunic or a tartan kilt or a leather kilt or buck nekkid covered in lye. :)

Ben Gash
09-13-2009, 01:29 AM
Jhowland, top marks for social history, collossal fail for geography. The English Channel is the stretch of water between England and France/Belgium. To get to Germany or the Netherlands you have to cross the North Sea, hence across the channel only referring to France and Belgium.

jdhowland
09-13-2009, 07:17 AM
Jhowland, top marks for social history, collossal fail for geography. The English Channel is the stretch of water between England and France/Belgium. To get to Germany or the Netherlands you have to cross the North Sea, hence across the channel only referring to France and Belgium.

Oh, Yeah. The Doggerbank, and all that. Thanks.

And those northern folks have bagpipes, too.

jd

Ben Gash
09-13-2009, 07:38 AM
Anglo is, quite literally, "English Speaking People." They didn't invade Britton; they were already there.
Care to elaborate a little on that? While there were small germanic communities in eastern Britain for some time, these were numerically insignificant compared to the mass migrations of the 5th and 6th centuries.

jdhowland
09-13-2009, 10:42 AM
Care to elaborate a little on that? While there were small germanic communities in eastern Britain for some time, these were numerically insignificant compared to the mass migrations of the 5th and 6th centuries.

I'll poke my nose in until the Marauder shows up (can there be such a thing as a Maraudeuse?).

This is still debated. A lot. Some of the impulse behind the early germanic settlement idea is the fact that almost no celtic words entered the English language from the "invasion" period. There is no evidence for wars of extermination against the latinised Britons. The "Saxon" settlers were farmers, not viking raiders. The "litus Saxonicum" was a Roman defensive strategy against piracy, but may have regulated North Sea commerce, rather than inhibited it. Those people may have been there long before the Romans. Or even celtic tribes.

The last guesstimate I heard was that celtic- and brithonic-speaking peoples arrived in Briton between c. 500 to 300 BCE. No one knows what langages were spoken there before that. The "celtic invasion" seems to have involved a spread of a new dominant "prestige language" and other cultural trends and not a massive repopulation of the islands. Some 19th century Indo-Europeanists thought that some of the celtic chieftans had germanic names.

A friend who moved to Ireland to seek his masters degree in Irish Gaelic told me of DNA research (mitochondrial?) that indicates the Irish and Scots have closest affinities to North Sea germans, beyond what could be expected from having been Norse colonies. And, of course, no one knows what languages the Picts spoke before the "Scotti" arrived.

Spoken language gives no clue to genetic background but it is probably the single greatest factor in cultural identity. The ancestors of the Wealas and the Sahsen probably had no problems intermingling on the european mainland, either. Those other guys talk kinda funny, but they're not really different.

jd

Becca
09-14-2009, 06:23 AM
Care to elaborate a little on that? While there were small germanic communities in eastern Britain for some time, these were numerically insignificant compared to the mass migrations of the 5th and 6th centuries.Sure. The term for a person who is of Angle descent isn't "Anglo." It's Anglii. Anglo-Saxon is the term for Saxons who integrated with the native brittons and started speaking thier language. The resulting language was what we now call old english. So....... anglo in this reference means english speaking people.:)

Becca
09-14-2009, 06:32 AM
The last guesstimate I heard was that celtic- and brithonic-speaking peoples arrived in Briton between c. 500 to 300 BCE. No one knows what langages were spoken there before that.... jdThough it is believed that brithonic grew from q-celtic and galic grew from p-celtic. Q-celtic is the same language that gave us German, French, and the Scandinavian languages. P-celtic was the base for most of the Mediterranean languages. the Irish originally came from the med via Spain. Stands to reason that the Britons came from Germany vial Gaul (France.) But you are correct that we just don't know for certain.

I hadn't heard about the new DNA research project. I'll definantly have to look into it. Thanks for the tip!


Those other guys talk kinda funny, but they're not really different.

jd
And this, I am steeling for a sig quote. :D

Ben Gash
09-14-2009, 07:29 AM
Sure. The term for a person who is of Angle descent isn't "Anglo." It's Anglii. Anglo-Saxon is the term for Saxons who integrated with the native brittons and started speaking thier language. The resulting language was what we now call old english. So....... anglo in this reference means english speaking people.:)

But English means "of the Angles" :confused:
And pre-saxon Britons spoke Latin :confused:

Ben Gash
09-14-2009, 07:42 AM
The term for a person who is of Angle descent isn't "Anglo." It's Anglii
A little confused here, Anglii is a pleural noun, and Anglo is an adjective. In Latin Anglius would be the term for a person who is of Angle descent (I make no pretense to know much about languages, that's just how I understand it).

Becca
09-14-2009, 07:58 AM
But English means "of the Angles" :confused:
And pre-saxon Britons spoke Latin :confused:LOL! Only the scholars, clergy, and lawyers spoke latin. And English is either "people from England" or the formal language that originated there. England did originate from the Old English name Englaland. Englaland does mean "land of the Engles" or Angles. But- Anglo and Angle are not the same thing, though they are close enough that most people think they came from the same origin.

It's splitting hairs to most people, I know. But think of it this way. Americans are "the people of the United States of America" and Canadians are 'the people of Canada". But we speak English.

England was named after the language spoken in much of Briton, not the other way around. All three germanic tribes spoke what they called Anglisc, wich was a blend of thier native tougues and brithonic. So if everyone spoke it, it wasn't strickly "of the Angles" was it?

We can blame the word "anglo" on one of the popes, Gregory, I think. He changed the plural of Anglii to simply Angli and decreed that the language of Britania was Anglo and the germanic tribes who spoke it were Anglo-Saxon.

Becca
09-14-2009, 08:05 AM
A little confused here, Anglii is a pleural noun, and Anglo is an adjective. In Latin Anglius would be the term for a person who is of Angle descent (I make no pretense to know much about languages, that's just how I understand it).
Yes, anglo is the adjective of anlius. Anglii is the plural noun of it. the problem came with trying to latinize the tribe's name that way. The Romans really didn't have thier facts strait about much of anything. And the Church tended to rewrite history to fit thier agenda.


Enough for today, though. I gots a stack of work to do, even if debating latin and old english is much more enjoyable. Later!

Ben Gash
09-14-2009, 08:32 AM
OK then Becca, the missing link here, which is why I'm not following you, is what are you saying is the origin of the word English? Especially if England means land of the Angles??? :confused: My head is hurting :(
Anyway, to address another point, while in England (as in the country that formed from the rise of the Saxon kingdoms) only scholars, clerics and lawyers spoke latin, pre saxon Britain was well integrated into the Roman Empire and most people thought of themselves as Roman. The bulk of city dwellers would have spoken Latin, not sure about the rural populations though. Latin had been the trade language in Britain for many years before the Roman conquest (which may or may not have been a conquest), as the idea of a unified Celtic identity in pre-roman Britain is not true. (again, the whole idea of a Celtic identity is a Roman construct).

Becca
09-14-2009, 12:08 PM
OK then Becca, the missing link here, which is why I'm not following you, is what are you saying is the origin of the word English? Especially if England means land of the Angles??? :confused: My head is hurting :(
Anyway, to address another point, while in England (as in the country that formed from the rise of the Saxon kingdoms) only scholars, clerics and lawyers spoke latin, pre saxon Britain was well integrated into the Roman Empire and most people thought of themselves as Roman. The bulk of city dwellers would have spoken Latin, not sure about the rural populations though. Latin had been the trade language in Britain for many years before the Roman conquest (which may or may not have been a conquest), as the idea of a unified Celtic identity in pre-roman Britain is not true. (again, the whole idea of a Celtic identity is a Roman construct).

The bulk of the city dwellers spoke the comon vernacular, which was not latin anyware but in what we now all Italy. After the fall of the Roman Empire, all of the "official business" was conducted in latin because that is what the Church used and there for what the scribes, who were usually either monks or monestary trained, wrote in. This was important because most people were illiterate, even the nobles, by the Dark Ages. This was the case in all of the lands Rome conqured.

The word "english" and the word "anglo" mean different things, though they are very similar. English Used to mean "of the Engles" only but became the name of our language as well as a nationality. Anglo used to be only the language we now know as English, but now means "white peoples." The English language is chalk full of interesting shifts in meaning. Bastid didn't used to be a bad word, for example.


My favorite, though, is similar and simular. They the same word with the same root and both are correct spellings. One is accepted over the other. Oddly, though, if you are from the American midwest, you probably spell it "similar" and say it "simular." ;)

edit: latin was a trade language, but not the common vernacular. Most of the merchant class could speak, read, and write it, but didn't use it at home.

Ben Gash
09-14-2009, 02:59 PM
So what are you saying is the origin of the word Anglo? As old English is clearly a germanic language and shares little with old Welsh, I'm somewhat confused. You are saying that the root word is not Anglii, Angulus, Angeln or Ingaevones, then what is it? Indeed, 400 years before the migration the romans were grouping the saxons, jutes and friesians together as Ingaevones, so why wouldn't people subsequently group them as angles?
(I must say, I'm learning a lot today :) )

BoulderDawg
09-14-2009, 03:25 PM
Going back to the original topic:

Why wear a kilt? I think us men should be secure enough to say "I look dam good in a dress and I'm not ashamed to wear one!" :D

Becca
09-15-2009, 06:52 AM
So what are you saying is the origin of the word Anglo? As old English is clearly a germanic language and shares little with old Welsh, I'm somewhat confused. You are saying that the root word is not Anglii, Angulus, Angeln or Ingaevones, then what is it? Indeed, 400 years before the migration the romans were grouping the saxons, jutes and friesians together as Ingaevones, so why wouldn't people subsequently group them as angles?
(I must say, I'm learning a lot today :) )I've came right out and said the origin of the word anglo several times, including the name of the guy who coined it. Try reading my words as I wrote them, not as how best they will fit in with your understanding of it.

Anglo is Latin, but it was in reference to the language of the land, not in reference to one of the germanic tribes. The language was a combination of brithonic and german. They called that language anglisc. We call it old english. A pope called it Anglo, which is where the latin came in.

Becca
09-15-2009, 06:54 AM
Going back to the original topic:

Why wear a kilt? I think us men should be secure enough to say "I look dam good in a dress and I'm not ashamed to wear one!" :D
D@mn your attempt to un-hijack this thread! You'll never get into the cocpit! Never!

Ben Gash
09-15-2009, 09:37 AM
I am reading your words, but you're stopping just short of them making sense. What then is the origin of Anglisc? Without that none of the rest makes any sense.
Yes, I can understand Anglo as a latinisation meaning people who speak Anglisc, but where does the word Anglisc come from?
BTW. if you could turn the confrontation dial down just a smidgen, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand.

jdhowland
09-15-2009, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Gash;959058]Yes, I can understand Anglo as a latinisation meaning people who speak Anglisc, but where does the word Anglisc come from?
QUOTE]

I'll butt in here, again, if I may.

There are two possible etymologies for the word which developed into anglii, englaland, etc.,: the most likely is that it referred to the "angle" or point of land on the Danish peninsula where the tribe lived before some of them headed for greener pastures. A second theory advanced is that the people referred to themselves as "anglers" or fishermen. "Angle" in this case means a fishhook.
The word hasn't changed much in a couple of millenia.

I knew what you were asking. I think Becca was just trying to stir things up with classical obfuscation. The marauder is having too much fun.

Be well.

jd

Becca
09-15-2009, 02:34 PM
I knew what you were asking. I think Becca was just trying to stir things up with classical obfuscation. The marauder is having too much fun.

Be well.

jdShhhh. stop tellin' ma secrets.:mad:;)


Ben:
The presise etymology of anglisc is not know, but it was first atested mor than 100 years after Alfred the Great was said to have called the people and land that.

It's a point of view thing. Do we choose to use the modern idea as correct definition or the one the Germanic tribs likely had?

All three tribes spoke the same language and that language was refered to as Anglisc. Alfred the Great, when he claimed to be the first king of the Anglo-Saxons, called bothe the people and the land they occupied Anglisc. But, since the language didn't originate in Angul (the Angle homeland), the anglo-saxons themselves likely didn't think it meant "of the Angles."

What we do know: Jutes, Saxons, and Angles on the continent didn't speak the same language. Jutes, Saxons, and Angles in what is now England did, but it was not significantly similar to any of the three continental tribes' native language to be simply a dielect of one.

Conjecture: Anglisc was a blend or Jute, Sanxon and Angle german and brithonic, which was spoken by the native population of the souther end of the isle.

What is definantly known is that latin did not enter into mainstream "english" untill after the Normans started speaking it cort rather than French. :)

If that isn't clear enough, I don't know if I can help you.

Mr Punch
09-15-2009, 05:48 PM
Ben:
The presise etymology of anglisc is not know, but it was first atested mor than 100 years after Alfred the Great was said to have called the people and land that.Alfred used the word Angelcynn which would mean 'kin of the Angles' to describe the people. It seems highly likely that this name had been around for centuries before. Offa used the title Rex Anglorum on some of his charters 150 years before Alfred. So while it is accurate to say Alfred was the first king of the Anglo-Saxons, the concept of the English had been around before Anglo-Saxon unity was cemented.

Given the vowel shift from Anglisc to English, it also seems likely that there is an etymological relationship with Yng/Ingaevones, which would explain the similarities between the languages and peoples of Jutland, Frisia, Angeln etc, and also explain why Saxon (which is a different branch) remained more separate until its realtively late assimilation into Anglisc with Anglo-Saxon.

As for the first attestation you mention, Tacitus (d. early second century) mentioned the Anglii in a list as allied with the Eudoses (sp?) who were the Jutes... so like Ben, I don't really know what your point is regarding Alfred, and the difference between uses of Anglii and Anglisc.


It's a point of view thing. Do we choose to use the modern idea as correct definition or the one the Germanic tribs likely had?Sorry, what were you saying was the modern idea?!


All three tribes spoke the same language and that language was refered to as Anglisc. Alfred the Great, when he claimed to be the first king of the Anglo-Saxons, called bothe the people and the land they occupied Anglisc. But, since the language didn't originate in Angul (the Angle homeland), the anglo-saxons themselves likely didn't think it meant "of the Angles."

What we do know: Jutes, Saxons, and Angles on the continent didn't speak the same language. Jutes, Saxons, and Angles in what is now England did, but it was not significantly similar to any of the three continental tribes' native language to be simply a dielect of one.Sorry, where are you getting that the three tribes spoke the same language as the Angles and Jutes? They were similar languages, and must have had some intercomprehensibility, but not the same. And are you saying the language of the Angles didn't originate in Angeln?!


Conjecture: Anglisc was a blend or Jute, Sanxon and Angle german and brithonic, which was spoken by the native population of the souther end of the isle.Brythonic is a different branch altogether. There is no evidence to suggest that Anglian or Anglo-Saxon were siginificantly influenced by Brythonic or any of the Celtic languages. There are about 80 words in Middle English derived from Celtic languages or Brythonic compared to 80% plus from the Germanic sources. There is little to suggest that there would be much mutual understanding either, since the Brython/Celtic languages do not follow Grimm's Law.


What is definantly known is that latin did not enter into mainstream "english" untill after the Normans started speaking it cort rather than French. :)Inaccurate! The Normans didn't speak French in any more than a barely recognisable form. And the Latin they used was heavily cross-pollinated by Germanic languages anyway. More later... no time now!

Have fun with this one, eh, Becca?! ;) All in good sport!

Mr Punch
09-15-2009, 06:49 PM
A couple of other random unclear hurried points!

The pope you mentioned was indeed Gregory I in 601 who refered to Aethelbert of Kent as Rex Anglorum. The Angles were already the prominent tribe, as obvious by the fact that Kent was in fact a Jute Kingdom, and soon to be subjugated by the Mercian (anglian) kingdom.

Most of the Latin words actually entered the vernacular during the Christianization of the Anglo-Saxons, and a second (slightly lesser) influence from the medieval Dog Latin after the Norman invasion. The supposition that the Normans spoke French is horribly wrong. Norman French was just as close to Germanic languages as to modern or contemporary French, hence its easy assimilation and rapid dominance in Britain: it wasn't that the Lords and the serfs didn't understand each other, it was that the vernacular was different.

Given that the Mercian language was predominant for close to 300 years from pre-Penda to post-Offa but that the Mercians weren't as into writing as their northern cousins the Northumbrians, it's safe to say that by the time the Wessex (West Saxons) kingdom came into prominence what they were chronicling in was already Anglo-Saxon rather than Saxon, with a heavy Angle influence. Hence Alfred's eventual assertion that he was King of the Anglo-Saxons.

Becca's assertion that Anglo-Saxon in any form was a mix of Anglisc, Saxon and Brythonic is the most puzzling. The Brythonic/Celtic branch never really came into it.

Mr Punch
09-15-2009, 07:06 PM
Incidentally Becca, the stem "anglo" itself doesn't come from classical Latin. It wouldn't be a correct Latin adjective form.

It is a Middle Latin (i.e. heavily influenced by Norman French and Old English itself) abbreviated corruption of the 10th century Old English "Angulsaexen" through "Anglo-Saxōnēs, Anglī Saxōnēs" and is only first used in the modern configuration of "Anglo-Saxon" in the early 17th century.

Up till then Angel (as in Alfred's Angelcynn), Engla (as in Alfred's Engla Lande), Anglii (as in the classical Latin adjective/plural noun) and Angul (as in Middle English Angulsaexen) would have been used.


A little confused here, Anglii is a pleural noun, and Anglo is an adjective.Anglo is an English adjective prefix: it is NOT a classical Latin adjective or adjective stem.


Yes, anglo is the adjective of anlius. Anglii is the plural noun of it.
I've came right out and said the origin of the word anglo several times, including the name of the guy who coined it. ...
Anglo is Latin, but it was in reference to the language of the land, not in reference to one of the germanic tribes. The language was a combination of brithonic and german. They called that language anglisc. We call it old english. A pope called it Anglo, which is where the latin came in.And you were wrong! Pope Gregory I used 'Anglorum', an adjective meaning 'of the Angles': as I proved above, nowhere did the 'anglo' prefix/stem get used until Middle English and Middle Latin in England in the 10th/11th centuries, and not in the common vernacular until much later. :p

Mr Punch
09-15-2009, 07:17 PM
I'll butt in here, again, if I may.

There are two possible etymologies for the word which developed into anglii, englaland, etc.,: the most likely is that it referred to the "angle" or point of land on the Danish peninsula where the tribe lived before some of them headed for greener pastures. A second theory advanced is that the people referred to themselves as "anglers" or fishermen. "Angle" in this case means a fishhook.
The word hasn't changed much in a couple of millenia.The first one you mention is most widely accepted by historians but most probably wrong. The 'angle-hook' of Angeln is pretty indistinct and in those days they just didn't have the map-making accuracy to have identified it as such a promontory. It's easy to see from above, but doesn't stand out so much from the surface.

There are another two possible derivations:

1) Ang meaning narrow, as Angeln is on a narrow (of the sea).
2) Ingaevones/Yng = the people of Yng: a description that was certainly used to include their close neighbours, the Jutes, and which would explain a lot about the similarities between the peoples of Scandinavia and Anglia in those days, and their languages.

Becca
09-16-2009, 01:53 PM
Have fun with this one, eh, Becca?! ;) All in good sport! by all means, argue back. I sometimes get my facts muddled, too. ;)

But: I'm not going digging back 2 or 3 pages to where this whole Thread hijacking began.

I will attempt to address your points as I see them.



Anglo is an English adjective prefix: it is NOT a classical Latin adjective or adjective stem.
Classical Latin is the form of the Latin language used by the ancient Romans in what is usually regarded as "classical" Latin literature. Its use spanned the 1st century BC and the early 1st century ADópossibly extending to 1st and 2nd centuries.

So: Anglo wasn't proper written Latin, but it was still Latin. Anglo was coined by Gregory the first some 400 years after classical latin fell out of common use. So a word like Anglii needing an adjective when written in latin would look like "anglo."

Becca
09-16-2009, 01:59 PM
As for the first attestation you mention, Tacitus (d. early second century) mentioned the Anglii in a list as allied with the Eudoses (sp?) who were the Jutes... so like Ben, I don't really know what your point is regarding Alfred, and the difference between uses of Anglii and Anglisc.
Did not say the Anglii as a people were first attested at that time. Said the word "anglisc" was first attested at that time. Attested to meam first proven written record of the word's use.

Becca
09-16-2009, 02:17 PM
What is definantly known is that latin did not enter into mainstream "english" untill after the Normans started speaking it cort rather than French.

Inaccurate! The Normans didn't speak French in any more than a barely recognisable form. And the Latin they used was heavily cross-pollinated by Germanic languages anyway. More later... no time now!

Did some checking and noticed we are both part right and part wrong. During the period of the Roman occupation of Southern Britain (AD 43 to c. 410), Common Brythonic borrowed a large stock of Latin words. I was not aware of that.


The name Norman-French is sometimes used to describe not only the modern Norman language, but also the administrative languages of Anglo-Norman and Law French used in England..... The Anglo-Norman dialect of Norman was a language of administration in England following the Norman Conquest. This left a legacy of Law French in the language of English courts (though it was also influenced by Parisian French). In Ireland, Norman remained strongest in the area of south-east Ireland where the Normans invaded in 1169.
So refering to the Normans as speaking french in court is not only accurate, it's apropriate. :)

goju
09-17-2009, 12:48 AM
is this the orginal celtish before it began evolving into todays galeic?
if so then early celtish was remarkably close to latin anyway so i doubt they would have borrowed being that they likely understood the romans and vice versa:D

Becca
09-17-2009, 06:10 AM
is this the orginal celtish before it began evolving into todays galeic?
if so then early celtish was remarkably close to latin anyway so i doubt they would have borrowed being that they likely understood the romans and vice versa:DBwahahah!!!! Yes, modern Galic is remarkably latin-ish. For exactly the same reason English has a lot of latin roots: the Romans spread thier culture like a desease. While most of thoese they conqured didn't drop thier native language, if a new consept was introduced or they needed a word for something they didn't already have a word for, they adopted the latin word.

What I love are they folks who say galic made no impact on english. the fraze "smashing" for instance. Ask most anyone from England what it means. Then ask anyone fluent in Scotts Ganlic.;)

goju
09-17-2009, 04:37 PM
oh yeah obviously gaelic influenced english not to mention celtish influenced the norse languages to begin with so the invading angles and saxons and jutes more than likely had alot of loan words from celtic before they settled and had contact with the celtic population of britain

gaelic also supposedly bares a strong similarity to phoenician and hebrew

THE SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE EARLY IRISH-CELTIC AND THE SECOND CENTURY, B.C., HEBREW- PHOENICIAN LANGUAGE, AS SHOWN BY THE PENULUS OF PLAUTUS:


PHOENICIAN OF PLAUTUS:


Byth lym mo thym nociothii nel ech an ti daisc machon


Ys i do iebrim thyfe lyth chy lya chon temlyph ula.


EARLY IRISH-CELTIC:


Beth liom' mo thime nociaithe, niel ach an ti dairie mae coinne


Is i de leabhraim tafach leith, chi lis con teampluibh ulla.

being irish i find it funny how our language went from sounding identical to ancient greek and latin to the clingon speak from star trek lol!!!:D

GeneChing
04-22-2013, 10:03 AM
This thread has been mentioned a lot lately. :o


Sperm quality higher in kilt-wearing men who go commando, say researchers (http://www.sciencerecorder.com/news/sperm-quality-higher-in-kilt-wearers-going-commando-say-researchers/)

Researchers warned readers that additional investigation is necessary to affirm this hypothesis.

Science Recorder | James Fluere | Saturday, April 20, 2013

For anyone of Scottish ancestry, the kilt is a symbol of honor and of fertility and masculinity. The differing plaids that kilt-wearing men put on are the colors of the particular clan that the individual belongs to.

Researchers from Erasmus MC University Medical Center in the Netherlands have investigated informal reports that individuals who wear kilts enjoy higher sperm counts and greater sperm quality.

Erwin Kompanje, an intensive care specialist at the Erasmus Medical Center, said that wearing a kilt is about more than just clan pride. He made the case that kilt-wearing men are likely to have higher sperm counts.

The researchers arrived at this conclusion by examining existing studies on scrotal temperature and spermatogenesis and fertility. They discovered that wearing a kilt creates an ideal scrotal environment, which allows the kilt-wearing man to preserve normal scrotal temperatures. Keeping the scrotal environment at an ideal temperature is known to be good for sperm production and quality.

While some activities improve sperm quality, others damage sperm cells. A recent study by researchers in Argentina links the electromagnetic radiation emitted by wi-fi enabled laptops to sperm damage.

Researchers gathered semen from 29 health men and determined their sperm cellsí swimming ability after being exposed to radiation from a wi-fi enabled laptop. Swimming ability decreased and DNA damage increased in the wi-fi sperm compared to the ďcontrolĒ sperm.

The researchers concluded that men who frequently wear a kilt during the year in which they hope to father a child will have improved rates of sperm quality and higher fertility. They also said that the most beneficial way to wear a kilt is to go commando.

According to LiveScience, the researchers cautioned their readers that additional investigation will be necessary to affirm this hypothesis.

Have you ever worn a kilt? Are you more likely to wear one now that researchers have found evidence that they increase sperm quality? Is wearing a kilt on a daily basis practical? Share your thoughts in the comments section.

The studyís findings are described in detail in the Scottish Medical Journal.