PDA

View Full Version : So you say that Bruce Lee sucks.....?



Kymus
01-31-2001, 05:54 PM
I am so tired of seeing these posts by people saying Bruce Lee this and Bruce Lee that. If he sucks so bad, why is it that Dan Inosanto trained with him for so long. Why is it that he still teaches JKD and holds anual seminars on it. Go to a JKD kwoon, and challenge someone there. That is the best way in my opinion to see if a style really "sucks". Who cares what he learned and how much he charged, the fact of the matter is, he created a great fighting system. I have taken JKD for 4 years now. It has taught me alot. So I ask, if JKD is so bad, and Bruce Lee is so fake, why is it that the system works? There have been a few JKDers in the UFC. One was an idiot who kept using headbuts because it was his fav move, the other did real well, but his loss was his long hair, the other guy got ahold of it and wouldn't let go. I've learned btis and pieces of about 15 different systems. I would honnedstly have to say that JKD is as good as any of these.

-Kymus-

Infrazael
09-16-2005, 12:49 PM
Because there are people like me who think Bruce was an arrogant punk.

rogue
09-16-2005, 07:19 PM
I've learned btis and pieces of about 15 different systems. I would honnedstly have to say that JKD is as good as any of these.
I would honnedstly agree that JKD is as good as any bit or any piece of at least 15 different systems.

IronMonkey
09-18-2005, 10:27 AM
Wow, there are actual morons out there saying that about Bruce??

Never heard anyone say such things.

And my bet, you're better of learning from all his books then from a JKD school (since its high chance it's BS).

Vash
09-18-2005, 11:56 AM
O

M

F

G

.

It must have taken one hell of an act of necromancy to bring this thread back to life.

Since I'm in the giving mood, I'm going to throw this zombie horse some deconsencrated troll-bits . . .

Bruce Lee was an excellent athlete with several poor habits, an average fighter, most of his books are not actually from his notes, and he suxors teh ballzors.

Game on.

SimonM
09-18-2005, 08:15 PM
Three words:

Wong Jack Man

PangQuan
09-19-2005, 11:42 AM
As far as the supreme levels a martial arts master can achieve, i would say bruce did not make it to the near tops...but he also died at 32.

at his age of 32, he was better than most of the people that talk all the smack about him.

people just like to talk smack, its human nature, and has been around since the time before time...

Bruce Lee was a man who dedicated himself to his lifes passions, much the same as you or I. To discount this is pure idiocy. Im not saying he was a martial arts god, but he had some skeelz.

This you cannot deny.

sure there is always someone better, but he was better than a lot of someones....

SimonM
09-19-2005, 04:03 PM
;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

DRleungjan
09-20-2005, 11:08 AM
Well, let's say I have my praises and my reservations about Bruce Lee as a human being. But who are we to judge? 'for', like the saying goes 'let him without sin cast the first stone!'.

One thing is for sure, that if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be enjoying training in the martial arts. This is unquestionable in my mind; Bruce Lee's approach to the martial arts was innovative beyond his years at the time that he was coming out with these theories. He was able to take, successfully I might add, traditionalism and fuse it with modern approaches to combat. And that my friends takes a very insightful mind to accomplish such a feat!

Bruce Lee is right there with Dr. Leung Jan and Wong Fei Hung as my martial arts heroes. :)

rogue
09-20-2005, 06:24 PM
This you cannot deny.
There's a debate ender if I ever saw one. :D :D

PangQuan
09-21-2005, 11:36 AM
lol. I guess so huh?
:D

Samurai Jack
09-21-2005, 11:42 AM
Bruce was an actor. Not a very good one either. As far as I can tell, there was no basis for the idea that he was an awesome martial artist aside from his movies, which were of questionable quality.

Wow! people are agreeing on KFM! Whodathunkit?

bo_hou_chuan
09-21-2005, 12:31 PM
I have studied some of Bruce's techniques and they look very much in line with my style, Bo Hou Quan.

PangQuan
09-21-2005, 02:18 PM
There is actually some pretty neat footage of bruce filmed home style.

I have several clips on my home comp.

Ill have to see about posting some of them.

I like the clip of him doing push up on one arm using only his index finger and his thumb, at a karate competition. Then there is a little sparring, with gear. I have some stuff of him in his back yard kicking a pad. and then some basic demo stuff.

his basic demo stuff make many people look sloppy, not to mention the power is shown when dude goes flying back from a sidekick.

I didnt know him. I cant say for a fact, but...there is actually quite a lot of documented evidence to show that bruce lee did love martial arts, and practiced alot.

Anyone who truly loves martial arts and practices a lot, will undoubtedly reach a level of competence.

I think we can all agree that bruce lee was at the very least a competent martial artist. Too many people who actually knew the man, and are themselves very good martial artists, will attest to the fact he knew his stuff. On the other hand we have many people who never met him, or were born after he died, that say he sucked.

I dont know what side one should be inclined to lean towards but i know which i do...


so much for the debate ender there rouge :p

PangQuan
09-21-2005, 02:22 PM
come to think of it, i would love to see some evidence showing that bruce lee sucked.

other than words. id like to see some video of him busting out some crap. but i never have.


you cant really judge his martial arts from his movies. His movie style was totally different.

Infrazael
09-23-2005, 04:46 PM
I have a book on him called "The Tao of the Dragon Warrior."

He performs a Da Choy (CLF move) in one of the pictures in a twist stance.

Yes, he borrowed stuff from CLF.

Then he died.

Happy ending, isn't it?

Oh yeah I used to love Bruce Lee too when I was 8. Then I discovered something called martial arts. After that I liked martial arts more than I did Bruce Lee.

PangQuan
09-23-2005, 05:14 PM
whats up infrazael.

this the infrazael i know? want to spar? :p


i tried to up load this neat bruce lee tribute music video compilation. but when it reaches 100% on the upload to the video web site thing it just goes blank and dissapears....

ill keep trying, its got some neat footage.

curtis
09-23-2005, 05:42 PM
Hello guys

I don't think,I know he was years ahead of his time. He was a Great fighter, and a pretty good teacher.

If you say he sucked, then look at his students, like Jessie Glover, James DeMile,Joe Lewis, Ed Hart... each one of these men are some of the best fighters I've ever seen, and if asked, (I did) they all state they couldn't hold a flame to Bruce.
I've heard James DeMile state, he has never seen another person that has everything ,that Bruce had, speed,power, timing, rhythm...

these men are now in there late 60's and early 70's (excpt Ed Hart, he passed away a few years ago) , But I can say,THAT I've never seen anyone, that could match them, and they say, they weren't even close to Bruce lee's ability.

that's proof enough for me!

pictures and words can lie, the memories do fade, but skills and abilities that ones students have can only be learned from there teacher.
and for these gentleman, that teacher was Bruce Lee.
just me two cents.

TaiChiBob
09-24-2005, 12:16 PM
Greetings..

Get as close to the source as you can.. ask Dan Inosanto, i did.. and i still respect BL's contribution to MA as we know it.. The ego's a funny thing, it gets real brave when the subject of its criticism passed away 30 years ago.. Let Dan give you a lesson on BL's style, it's as close as you can get to BL..

Who cares what people think about BL, how does that affect anyones training.. the only issue i see here, is envy.. people can't compete with BL's reputation so they tear it down.. let the man lay in peace and get on with your own journey..

Be well

Dim Wit Mak
09-24-2005, 02:16 PM
There are definate advantages to living life under the radar. One of those advantages is being able to RIP 32 years after death. If people really do turn over in their graves when controversy surrounds them, Bruce must look like a flopping fish.

Jason Martell
10-01-2005, 10:10 PM
he's probably just laughing at these freaks who have no possible way of knowing this. Unless they trained with him personally or saw him in an actual streetfight, they are just talking out of their but.

rfbrown3
10-02-2005, 07:17 AM
I was alive when Bruce Lee was alive, unlike many of those who today have made him into some sort of demigod. Plain simple truth of the matter as I see it, Bruce Lee was a very talented athlete, not much of an actor, and possessed a fair amount of martial art talent. Here are some of my observations about the man.

He was way too small to compete in the tournaments of his time although I think he did do a demo at one of Ed Parker's tournaments. People like Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, and Joe Lewis were much bigger and quite frankly much better and could have easily beaten him in the ring.

Bruce Lee was also a man who seemed to be battling his own demons. I think after the Wong Jack Man fight he came to question his own abilities and spent the rest of his short life trying to overcome his perceived limitations. He definately possessed somewhat of an arrogant personality but I also think he was very hard on himself and people seem to flock to him.

Bruce Lee though had a dynamic, charismatic personality and as I stated above, attracted quite a following. Three decades after his death, he apparently still does. He helped tremendously to popularize Martial Arts in his time, and again three decades after his death, he still does, which I find just amazing.

Bruce Lee was an iconoclast and as such rejected much of the traditions of CMAs including the practice of forms. I think much of that stemmed from the reasons I stated in the above paragraph. Whatever else though, Bruce Lee seemed to have possessed a high degree of curiosity about other MAs and had the keen sense to be able to pull many things together from many different arts. He therefore in my mind was a keen student, but had little patience for the traditional method of teaching found in most CMAs.

I have always been curious as to how Bruce Lee's MA philosophy and with that his JKD would have evolved had he lived longer. Bruce Lee was very much a product of his time, a time when every facet in society was being called into question. The prevailing wisdom of the time was to reject the wisdom of our elders, but I wonder how this attitude would have changed as Lee grew older(and wiser). I somehow like to speculate that eventually he would have come full circle and and just maybe would have come to realize the value of at least some of the traditions in CMAs he had previously discarded and that his natural curiosity I believe would have him at some point in time devoting time and energy to the study of those traditions and that would have made him both a better teacher and a martial artist. Just a theory of course, and I could be dead wrong on that.

His statement that "become water my friends" is IMHO, one of the corniest pieces of psycho-babble that I have ever heard!

My most favorite Bruce Lee "moment" was his scenes in the movie, Marlowe, with James Garner.

Much of what today we think we know about Bruce Lee comes from Linda Lee, his widow, and I think she has distorted or at least exaggerated a lot of events in Bruce Lee's life for her own financial gain and of course to promulgate his reputation and memory. I am not sure what to think of her or her motives.

Please note that these obsevations are made at a distance, and of course I never met Bruce Lee in person or for that matter, anyone close to him. Take them with a grain of salt if you want, doesn't matter to me. Just my two cents worth.

RFB

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2005, 09:06 AM
The fact is Bruce Lee changed the face of modern MA. It was not merely because of his skill or his philosophy, but because he was the first major international MA media star. Or maybe it would be more appropriate to say the first “Western” MA media star! It was movies and marketing that created his mystique and thus the marketing empire that followed after his death! Historically, there are plenty of other not so well known martial artists that had/have comparable skill and innovative insight. Just because they are not internationally known does not detract from their skill or knowledge! Bruce Lee was not the first innovator in MA history, nor will he be the last. The history of MA is about innovation, as it is the history of warfare in general! His ideas became well known because he was a media star and after he died his movies and savvy marketing created a cash cow for those who stood to gain from his legendary status!

That should not detract from his ideas or his skills. They were just not unique to him, he merely popularized them!

Aside from his physical stunts, that anyone may accomplish with a little time and practice, his demonstrated skill should still be considered above average. MA stunts are all about creating awe in the lesser educated for the purpose of gaining status and financial gain anyway. Movie stunts and bravado are a performance designed to sell tickets and entertain audiences!

Bruce Lee influenced the MA in the West (or East from Hong Kong, LOL!!) in a big way. Kung Fu was almost unknown prior to him and the Kung Fu television series. His abilities and mystique inspired and motivated an entire generation of young MA and his well marketed legend still does to this day. The Japanese arts dominated in the 50’s and 60’s in America because many of the GI’s that came back from WWII learned Japanese arts while stationed in Japan! There were also some Korean arts brought over by GI’s stationed in Korea. Since the familiarity was of the Japanese and Korean arts, the Kung Fu styles were relatively unknown. Most of the Chinese instructors in America still would not teach to non-Chinese! Bruce was not the first, but one of the first to teach to anyone interested! Fresh ideas were infused into the American MA scene through the influence of Bruce. This is the background and foundation of the sensation created by Bruce Lee with his ideas! Most or all of the famous martial artists that were trained by him knew little of the Chinese approach to the MA! Many of the younger MA here were not alive back then so you really don’t know what you are talking about compared to those of us who were not only there, but also trained in the MA!

It is in the nature of man to derogate those we fear may be considered our superiors! It makes us feel better about our own mediocrity! Bruce Lee had plenty of drive and ability to match up against any of the best MA of today. Whether he could actually beat any of them in a fight doesn’t really matter. Those who believe that a true Master should be able to defeat all comers should ask himself why he never saw Bella Karoli perform a double backward somersault off the balance beam yet was able to train the world’s top FEMALE gymnasts for over 3 decades!! You don’t have to be able to DO it to TEACH it! Regardless, he could probably defeat most or all of us posting here when he was in his prime.

Before we complain about his perceived arrogance perhaps we should question our own arrogance. It seems to me there is plenty of it piling up on these threads from those who have accomplished a lot less in their puny little lives!

We are not Asians growing up in the 60’s when most Asians and whites did not approve of inter-racial marriages! We don’t have to fight our own culture to train and teach our arts. We don’t have to fight American commercialism that tells use an Asian can't succeed in American cinema as the leading star. It is only a strong personality that could meet and defeat all the naysayers and obstacles that Bruce overcame, not to mention his debilitating back injury. “Enter the Dragon” made him the first movie star ever to be paid $1,000,000 for a movie. He became in some ways the biggest star of his era. Sure he is not the man his marketing says he is, but I am not the man you think I am and you are not the people I think you are! None of us are what we appear to be to others! We are who we are and who cares what others think!!

viper
10-03-2005, 06:08 AM
people bag bruce all the time i think if he hadn of died hed be another great master genrally talked about in ma circles but he made movies and it glorified him and persona he was arrogant but he was HUMAN all these people sayin stuff act lik there perfect could bif and im sure if he was alive today then he mite have more history to bak that but he died and thats that he jus used ma as a tool a medium if people dont look past the clouds theyll nva see the sky if he wasnt so great people wouldn always talk bout him so there must of been somthing i prefer to remember his insporation he gave to others

Willow Palm
10-04-2005, 11:16 AM
What exactly is the point of a Bruce Lee discussion anyway? Did you train with him? Did you know him? Then why waste your mind trying to validate whatever your point may be?

Recognize that he lived then died, and get back to your own studies. If you think he has something to teach you, great! Or not, great! No one knows the full picture because YOU'RE NOT BRUCE LEE!!


Happy Training,
Warren

Jason Martell
10-09-2005, 10:53 PM
What exactly is the point of a Bruce Lee discussion anyway? Did you train with him? Did you know him? Then why waste your mind trying to validate whatever your point may be?

Recognize that he lived then died, and get back to your own studies. If you think he has something to teach you, great! Or not, great! No one knows the full picture because YOU'RE NOT BRUCE LEE!!


Happy Training,
Warren


Your post is very honest, and wise. Vash did his whole O M F G. and then gave a deatiled description of how Bruce Lee's strengths and weaknesses, and said he was an average fighter. I tried to quote Vash, but every time I try my computer freezes, but anyways, I wanted to ask Vash all those questions you posted. There is no possible way for anybody here to know how good he was. How could anybody know? You can't tell from movies. You really can't. Even if you see sparring footage of him with a student, you can't tell. This is how I look at Bruce. He offered a very mositive message of martial arts, that it didn't matter what the color of your skin was. He changed martial arts, and I think he was a good man.

SimonM
10-10-2005, 09:35 AM
He offered a very mositive message of martial arts, that it didn't matter what the color of your skin was. He changed martial arts, and I think he was a good man.

Thing is Jason that by the time Bruce appeared on the scene LOTS of people were teaching martial arts to us Lao Wai / Gaijin. The whole fighting for the right to teach whoever was mainly Linda Lee posthumous spin.

Vash
10-10-2005, 06:35 PM
I tried to quote Vash, but every time I try my computer freezes.

That's

because

I'm

that

****

cool.

IronMonkey
10-10-2005, 07:12 PM
Well, apparently this thread has become a joke.

Vash
10-10-2005, 07:16 PM
Well, apparently this thread has become a joke.

No, it pretty much started as one and went downhill from there.

Karate is teh l3th@l!11!!1eleven!1

CaptinPickAxe
10-12-2005, 07:15 PM
Vash! Your Kara-Te cannot compete with my "Hungover man vomits Bile" style...

NOW BOW, PEON!!!:D

Vash
10-12-2005, 08:14 PM
Vash! Your Kara-Te cannot compete with my "Hungover man vomits Bile" style...

NOW BOW, PEON!!!:D

Just because I cannot do Drunken Style with Red Label Wine doesn't mean I can't hang with the most inebriated of them all!1!1!!!1

****, I hope this doesn't detract from the more informative posts the JKD sometimes gets . . .

IronMonkey
10-13-2005, 09:45 PM
JKD is a joke :)

The Real Troy
10-15-2005, 04:08 PM
Why do you say that? I mean I once thought that it was too, but I also used to think that fighting was very different from what really is. It took a few fights with some people to realize that my practice of forms and arranged sparring was leading me nowhere near anything I could use on the street or in the ring.

SimonM
10-15-2005, 06:34 PM
What do you mean by arranged sparring? Two man sets? Because my Sifu's biggest criticism of JKD went thusly:

Bruce Lee took a bunch of principles that good Sifus had been using for hundreds of years, put his name on them and then said this is not Gong Fu because Gong Fu does not do these things.

The Real Troy
10-16-2005, 09:03 AM
Yes, two-man sets. They are not exactly the most useful thing CMA has put out.

I personally don't think that's what Bruce Lee meant. I think they (TCMA) did many things that are effective, I just think that they got stuck in this idea that it would work without actually trying it out i.e. arrogance. Plus the world has changed quite a bit in the last 150 years. Before that China never met with people from other countries, and there was little exchange of ideas. Even up to 10+ yrs ago, we were in a real mess concerning fighting. Although I still think that some people still haven't gotten it yet, we are progressing in terms of fighting, no matter how slowly.

I think what Bruce Lee did is told us that we cannot just sit around and our Sifus/Senseis/Guros/Instructors to just spoon feed us the answers to combat. No, he taught us that we must investigate into many different things, and learn to make it our own and develop it to work for us. You are your greatest teacher, and the less you trust in your own heart and mind, the less that you will be able to progress in not only combat but in your own self-development.

I used to be a Buddhist Monk, I was ordained for a couple years. At first I was very attached to Buddhism, I followed as exactly as I could. By the time I disrobed, I had realized that that was not what true spirituality was and is not about. I discovered that it was about being who I really was, without holding onto who I really was and am. For a lot of being this is hard to understand, and for a while, even though I had realized it for myself, I had not fully understood and still I am learning. There is always room for growth, and if you are always clinging to the "principles that good Sifus had been using for hundreds of years" then you are always going to be stuck. Hopefully you'll have good friends like I did to get you out of that mess, because I have been there and it sucks to be stuck.

SimonM
10-16-2005, 04:39 PM
I can honestly say that I have never learned a two man set.

Dim Wit Mak
10-16-2005, 05:29 PM
Yes, two-man sets. They are not exactly the most useful thing CMA has put out.

I personally don't think that's what Bruce Lee meant. I think they (TCMA) did many things that are effective, I just think that they got stuck in this idea that it would work without actually trying it out i.e. arrogance. Plus the world has changed quite a bit in the last 150 years. Before that China never met with people from other countries, and there was little exchange of ideas. Even up to 10+ yrs ago, we were in a real mess concerning fighting. Although I still think that some people still haven't gotten it yet, we are progressing in terms of fighting, no matter how slowly.

I think what Bruce Lee did is told us that we cannot just sit around and our Sifus/Senseis/Guros/Instructors to just spoon feed us the answers to combat. No, he taught us that we must investigate into many different things, and learn to make it our own and develop it to work for us. You are your greatest teacher, and the less you trust in your own heart and mind, the less that you will be able to progress in not only combat but in your own self-development.

I used to be a Buddhist Monk, I was ordained for a couple years. At first I was very attached to Buddhism, I followed as exactly as I could. By the time I disrobed, I had realized that that was not what true spirituality was and is not about. I discovered that it was about being who I really was, without holding onto who I really was and am. For a lot of being this is hard to understand, and for a while, even though I had realized it for myself, I had not fully understood and still I am learning. There is always room for growth, and if you are always clinging to the "principles that good Sifus had been using for hundreds of years" then you are always going to be stuck. Hopefully you'll have good friends like I did to get you out of that mess, because I have been there and it sucks to be stuck.

Mushashi, the great Japanese swordsman, basically said the same thing. When asked what school of swordsmanship he adhered to, he said that he was his own teacher (paraphrase). Many great minds have thought outside the box, and found out that many discoveries must be made by one self.

Vash
10-16-2005, 05:45 PM
It'd be cool if Dimmakseminar came in and totally pwnzord this thread.

The Real Troy
10-17-2005, 10:54 AM
I definitely don't think Bruce Lee was the first to do that, nor the last. I'm just saying that he was is one of the few that were more well-known. I'm sure there were many to do that, another example are Yiquan people, particularly Wang Xiangzhai.

Wong Fei Hong
10-24-2005, 12:06 AM
I must admit that this is the most overw@nked subject ever apart from maybe mma vs trad.
I used to hate bruce lee, why ?
1 Because i used to think he thought he was the best.
2 He never fought anyone to prove it, well not apart from the wong jack man incident which was so debatable it was g-hay.
3 Because in 90% of his demos he would do a telegraphed flying side kick from here to eternity to show his power. :rolleyes:

Until i found this image that i posted up. Which made me think , that he really does think on a tangent about relaxation which is why most people meditate instead.

But the real reason, the HOLY GRAIL OF ALL BRUCE LEE DISCUSSIONS is that yes in this article quoting sammo hung, bruce lee actually stated that he couldn't have ever beaten muhhamed ali.

So i thought maybe bruce wasnt so arrogant and it was just one of those my sifu is better than your sifu things, that his students propagated.

Scott R. Brown
10-24-2005, 12:47 AM
Hi Wong,

The issue is only over-worked for those who have participated in this topic many times in the past. Remember that there are always new members or those who may have missed the discussions relating to Bruce in the past. For them it is a new discussion, not an over worked one!

It is also important to keep in mind that much of Bruce’s public image was for marketing purposes. All of us have a public persona and a private one, more so for actors and performers. The more attention one can generate about oneself the more likely the public will buy whatever you are selling. In Bruce’s case it was his movies.

TonyM.
10-24-2005, 09:40 AM
Got to spar with a student of Master Lee and Master Inosanto back in '75 on Fort Polk. He definetly did not suck.

viper
10-25-2005, 05:56 AM
I would of loved to spar bruce not because i think im good just so i could feel the speed strength power. To gauge for myself how good he was as a fighter compared to others iv spared thats why i like sparing my sifu so much more grown then me if u understand what im sayin. Its great to know im not as good as i could be and i can keep learning if im not learnin im not growin and not havin fun he i think was a good combatant and i wouldv loved to grow from the experience for my self.

Vash
10-25-2005, 06:51 AM
Two reasons a period is a good thing:

1. It means another month without child support

2. It separates sentences into more easily understood components of a paragraph

IronMonkey
10-26-2005, 12:14 AM
HAHA @ vash... good one :p


And about the Ali thing... no one knows, cause they never fought. IMO, Ali would only win with Boxing regulations.
IMO, Bruce would win, anything goes (as how Bruce always practiced fighting).

johnyk
10-27-2005, 07:29 PM
Good or bad,
but maybe people should not talk about someone who passed away.
This is what I learned.
Be well, all you guys.

TheSnake
11-17-2005, 11:53 AM
You really have to try and look at Bruce Lee and his accomplishments from a complete perspective as oppossed to a segmented view. Looking at things from a total perspective, you can say that he definetly influenced many young men around the world in a very positive way, and he also helped to bring some of the chinese culture over to america. What else did he do? Well he helped land the first international film-making deal between America and China(Enter The Dragon).

You can break the man down piece by piece and say that he was just an actor, or just an average martial artist, but the truth is that he was many things. He was a philosopher, a martial artist, a director, a fight coreographer, an actor, a great man and a very intense one at that.

He had a completely different approach to combat in comparison to most sport-fighters and most of the people around here saying that he sucked. He didnt train so he could successfully go into a cage and knock someone out who is the same size as him. He trained so he could successfully incapacitate any man big or small who tried to inflict damage upon him. Deadly self-defense, not sport-fighting. You cant take someone deadly like him, and put him in a boxing ring. Someone was saying that he wouldnt do very well against bigger fellas in the ring. Well with limitations and rules, that may be so. But outside of the ring, in a smash-mouth street fight where absolutely anything goes, Bruce Lee could possibly kill any man on the planet(In his time).

TheSnake
11-17-2005, 12:11 PM
Bruce Lee was also, of course, an intellectual. As we know, combat was a way of expressing his true being. I think its pretty funny that people say hes "average", or a terrible artist. Have you ladies seen his hand speed? Hand speed is one thing, but to be able to fluenty execute and express combat techniques effectively with such incredible hand speed takes serious skill; skill that apparently Bruce Lee had. Im of course, talking about his Wing Chun skill. Im pretty sure he never got around to completing the third and final form of Wing Chun, but he was definetly better than "average" in that art.

Ive honestly never seen someone as fast as him in my entire life. Mike Tyson was extremely powerful and fast, but his handwork didnt look like it was traveling at light speed like Lee's. I think Vitor Belfort of the UFC in his prime was deadly fast with his boxing skills, but still, not as fast as Lee.

Siu Lum Fighter
12-01-2005, 12:25 AM
I think Bruce may very well have been smothered by certain fighters in the UFC. Not that he would have even competed since he wasn't about to tarnish his prescious rep. I'm sorry, but I really can't stand all of this bullsh*t about how he was the fastest man ever. You look at Jet Li and Jackie even and the speed at which they perform their moves (at least in the movies) is just as fast if not faster than anything I've ever seen Lee do. And don't give me this, "oh, well they actually had to slow the film down," crud. The only reason Lee seemed so great to so many people is because just happened to be the first kung fu practitioner to come out in a big way with in the movies.

hen
12-01-2005, 04:08 AM
Well, no one to Bruce's defence?

Sad....:(

One thing is for sure, if it wasn't for Bruce Lee, non of the martial arts would be as popuplar today and non of you would talk KF/MA. We be all in a westling or judo forum............. Who can tell......

Wong Fei Hong
12-01-2005, 07:44 AM
One thing about lee being fast i used to think so too, i mean really he was fast, but afterwards i found out that people who used to be on the set with him would say how spastic it would get because lee would maybe shoot the same scene 80 - 120 times just so that he would get the punch looking so perfect and the movement full speed.
In reality you only get one go, even if boards dont hit back, ppl dont wait for 100 takes :D

Chief Fox
12-01-2005, 07:52 AM
Bruce Lee has been a huge influence to me as a martial artist and a person but lets keep one thing in mind. Real fighters fight. Ali was a fighter. He was a fighter ever since he was a kid. He had great skills and worked harder than anyone else. He tested himself on the world stage and came out victorious many many times. He won a gold medal and he was the heavy weight champion of the world- twice.

Yes, Bruce Lee was a great man for many different reasons but put him in a ring with Ali and he gets destroyed.

TaiChiBob
12-01-2005, 10:14 AM
Greetings..

Bruce Lee made some great flicks and raised the consciousness of wannabes all over the world.. beyond that its pretty much hearsay or prejudiced opinions.. i'll wager that any of us would be pleased to enjoy the skills and respect Mr. Lee earned.. some people say they're tired of hearing how great he was and they're right, they're tired..

Be well..

wei wu wei
12-01-2005, 08:16 PM
Let's debate this. Lets talk of Lee's virtuosity as a fighter, his skill at dynamic self-expression, the belt he used to tie his trousers up with. Let's talk arrogance, his inability to lift dramatic amounts of weight or that wife of his. Let's cuss him till the cows come home and sing our praises of his birth coinciding with the rising of the eastern sun of gung fu, in the western world. let's call him a chump, a punk a no hold's wannabee. Let's speak of the ethic of martial skill over franchised schools or ponder the effect of water permeating rocks or fingers pointing at each other rather than toward the moon. let's find boards that hit back or resurrect the classical mess. Lets talk Jesse Glover, Fook Yeung, Wong Shong Leung. In fact let's steal from Bosnian statues or let's desecrate Brandon's grave. Let's take his image and jab at it in reverence. Let's forget the chain punch, the close and functional fitness. let's close our mind to the inner dialogue that whispers weakness and shout at the top of our typing lungs. let's talk about how he was half the man that 'so and so' is, who is eight-tenths the man you will never be. let's pick at his bones, his rotten fresh and take in the aroma of cadavers decades old. let's forget and close the book and find the next victim.

then when the shouting is done and the dust settles and the termites crawl away... leave me alone to say one thing... he is still in our minds and hearts.

hen
12-01-2005, 09:24 PM
Yes, Bruce Lee was a great man for many different reasons but put him in a ring with Ali and he gets destroyed.

Well Ali is the greatest, in is prime he can destroy anyone (past, present and future) in the ring.

Siu Lum Fighter
12-02-2005, 12:19 PM
Let me ask you this. Do you think an Ali in his prime would have made it to the top in the UFC, K-1, or Pride? There's alot to consider here. Like the fact that these fights are almost no holds barred competitions where fighters clinch, go to the ground and usually stay there going for submissions or elbowing their way to victory. Boxing on the other hand, is full of rules and regulations.

In my opinion, Ali would've been schooled in any one of those other venues. He might have won some of the bouts, but as soon as somebody like Tito got him on the ground, or Remy Bonjasky or Ken Shamrock started going to work with the kicks, Ali would've been ass out.

Infrazael
12-02-2005, 12:22 PM
Ummm. . . . . . Tyson in his pride would have demolished Ali. I'm sorry, but Tyson has so much power, plus his training methods were even better than Ali's.

Ali was an AMAZIN fighter, but Tyson was just a monster.

curtis
12-02-2005, 05:54 PM
I almost cant believe I'm responding to this again. But there are a few comments that have been made I think should be responded to.
First Infrazael. Iron Mike Tyson was great in his early years, but Ali fought and beet, Big George Forman ,and I think Forman was much stronger and hit harder than Tyson.

Siu Lum Fighter, all those K1...no holds barred competition fighters are Young tough thugs, Those kind of men have always been around,I dont think they are anything special, except they are willing to fight for money.and at this time they are somewhat a novelty, as time passes we will see how they stack up.
What set Bruce Lee and Ali, and some others, apart from the mass's is they excelled at what they did beyond all others at there time.
How would they do against some of today's fighters? who knows... we will never really know. But I can tell you on Bruce Lee's behave, the men that he tough, his stile of fighting to, are still today some of the best fighters in the world, If nothing else, that should be a pointer to his greatness.
Bruce Lee had the abilities to teach and do things that others,today can not do.
I would suggest to you, quite trying to knock down his image. Isn't it funny that more than 30 years after his death he is still one of the most known martial artiest in the world.Ide suggest to you that in its self is a true test of his greatness.( to live beyone your own death)

C.A.G.

hen
12-02-2005, 07:04 PM
Totally agreed.

Tyson was intimidating, powerful, super fast. But one weakness being he is still human and still can be hurt. It was "Bone Crusher Smith" and expose this weakness, although Tyson won but Smith landed some puches and Tyson was hurt. He wasn't as invincible as I first imagined. And Ali, would have taken Tyson. Ali has higher EQ, very intellegent, good tactics, highly skillful and fast, can punch and also take punches.

But, out of the ring, who can tell?? Then Ali was verbally very hard to beat and Bruce was no walk over.:D

They were both very persuasive and strong in their expressions outside the ring/movies.

Siu Lum Fighter
12-03-2005, 02:12 PM
Isn't it funny that more than 30 years after his death he is still one of the most known martial artiest in the world.

And James Dean is still one of the most celebrated actors in the world mainly because he died and left this sort of unfinished legacy. Just like with any actor or celebrity who dies in their youth, Bruce continues to be popular because of the legend. If he had continued to live somebody would eventually started calling him out and, just like almost every other fighter who ever thought they were indestructible, he very likely would have eventually gotten beat. And he KNEW this anyway. Which is why he never put his rep on the line and fought in the ring.

It's worth noting that Joe Lewis became disgruntled with Bruce partly because he felt that he was the one who was out there in the ring while Lee was sitting all snug in the sidelines claiming that he was responsible for Joe's victories. He said that Bruce made a big deal about people throwing his name around while he himself would use Joe's name to prop himself up as this great teacher.

Wong Fei Hong
12-04-2005, 05:19 AM
I think bruce lee might have done ok in something like k-1 max for under 70kg but then again, there were fights back then werent there and he never entered i mean urquidez went to thailand and japan and fought with their fighters whilst bruce lee scratched his booty.
Also I think ali would have beat tyson, the way i look at it , boxing is a sport, now dont get me wrong tyson is a monster his reflexes were amazing and his technique was so natural and unbelievably powerful. But because it has rules i think ali would have won, why ?
Because when you watch the lennox lewis fight, lenox louis to me was like an orangutang in that fight, he had these long arms warded tyson off and then kept hugging him, lol not clinching hugging to break his rythm get him tired.
Ali was an outboxer and he would have beat tyson in the same way with 100 times more style than LL without clinching he would have countered him to death.
But if it was a different set of rules , tysons power and reflexes would just overwhelm ali.

SevenStar
12-08-2005, 12:59 PM
It depends on which tyson you are talking about. Yes, the tyson that lewis beat woulda gotten stomped by ali. But, Tyson in his prime - young tyson with Cus in his corner - woulda ate Ali's lunch.

Vajramusti
12-10-2005, 04:14 AM
"Tyson in his prime - young tyson with Cus in his corner - woulda ate Ali's lunch."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We dont know that- of course speculation is possible.
But Ali in his prime- was seldom where you could find him.

joy chaudhuri

Ultimatewingchun
12-12-2005, 01:57 PM
It depends on which tyson you are talking about. Yes, the tyson that lewis beat woulda gotten stomped by ali. But, Tyson in his prime - young tyson with Cus in his corner - woulda ate Ali's lunch.


***DEFINITELY.

Tyson's style of fighting is exactly the kind that always gave Ali fits. (Frazier, Norton).

Wong Fei Hong
12-12-2005, 02:36 PM
Its hard to say aboout ali in his prime, but when i look at tysons videos in his prime, he is perfect in his style as a boxer i think thats the only way to describe it . I have never seen anyone move with that instinct and perfect timing.

TheSnake
12-13-2005, 12:40 PM
"I think Bruce may very well have been smothered by certain fighters in the UFC. Not that he would have even competed since he wasn't about to tarnish his prescious rep. I'm sorry, but I really can't stand all of this bullsh*t about how he was the fastest man ever. You look at Jet Li and Jackie even and the speed at which they perform their moves (at least in the movies) is just as fast if not faster than anything I've ever seen Lee do. And don't give me this, "oh, well they actually had to slow the film down," crud. The only reason Lee seemed so great to so many people is because just happened to be the first kung fu practitioner to come out in a big way with in the movies."

Well Bruce WAS extremely fast. In fact, a very credible martial artist that goes by the name of Joe Lewis said that Bruce Lee was the fastest person that ever stood in front of him. Suppossedly, Bruce's actual combat skill wasnt as good as the legend says it was. But he wasnt insecure in any way about it and he was constantly in a learning process and he treated defeat as a state of mind and a building block helping him to progress forward. He was also an excellent teacher and he picked up on things incredibly fast. He was a legitamate tough-guy and he wasnt a joke. Of course, he had his dark side just like anyone else; hence the anabolic steroids he was taking to increase his speed and strength(Which it did because he looked like a blur when he moved as fast as he could).

You've got to understand the difference between a competition fighter and a deadly combatant. There are the people who fight in cages and rings constantly trying to prove to the world how great they are in their division, and then there are deadly combatants who actually apply themselves to REAL warfare without any rules. Combat in its totality has no rules and regulations.

There are good reasons why they have weight classes in sport-fighting. One of the most important reasons is equality. They want competitive bouts featuring two people of nearly equal status so the fights will be entertaining. Also, sports like boxing are designed so that there is only one way of taking out your opponent(Punching to the upper body and head). Its actually pretty simple; when a sport is constructed in this manner, you need to have people of nearly equal skill and stature to make the bout competitive. In a boxing bout where skill is involved(most of the time), you cant just match up a 300 pound man against a 130 pound man. With the rules and regulations that the two combatants aggreed to prior to the match, the smaller man will not have a chance. The larger opponent may not even need to utilize his boxing skill. He will be alot stronger than 130 pound man which means that the 300 pound man can take his weakest point and attack the smaller mans strongest point and it would still be stronger than the little guys.

Combat sports are awesome to watch and I dont wish to offend any sport-fighters by saying that competition fighting isnt total fighting(Because I respect competition martial artists). In a total combat situation, speed can be the definitive factor. Without protective gear, if you land a lightning fast incapacitating maneuver to the opponent right off the bat, thats pretty much it. Take Randy Coutore vrs Vitor Belfort II for example: UFC 46(Super Natural). Belfort caught Randy in the eye in under a minute of the first round and Randy was pretty hurt. Eyes, groin, shin, throat; these are the most vulnerable points on the human body and they can be struck in a total combat situation with extreme precision before your opponent even recognizes what hit him.

TheSnake
12-13-2005, 01:10 PM
In a real fight you need complete defense. Imagine Randy Coutore(2005) vrs Bruce Lee(Right before he died) in a total combat situation: Despite what the myth says about Lee, he was not any kind of all-around super power. He had an excellent mind and he was extremely fast. As far as his LIVE total combat skill is concerned, he was definetly good, but he was just a young man in the process of evolving his combat skills.

TOTAL COMBAT

Tale of the tape:

Lee:
32 Years old
130 Pounds
5 foot 6

Martial art skill: Mastered the first two forms of Wing Chun Gung Fu, traded ideas and studied with many great martial artists throughout the world in multiple styles
Strengths- Incredibly fast boxing skill(Wing Chun), very balanced and agile, very agressive, good low kicking skills, devastatingly fast when smothered and under pressure(Lethal takedown defense)
Weakness'- Effective/strong high kicks in a LIVE combat situation, REAL defensive and parraying skills(His own style of martial art was considered offensive defense and he lacked the ability to actual directly defend incoming shots. He prefered to intercept the opponent while he is making an offensive committment as we all know. When this doesnt work, you need to be able to directly defend.)

Coutore:
46 years old
205 pounds
6 foot 2

Martial art skill: World class wrestling skill(Over 30 years of experience), working on his striking skill
Strengths- Beginning to be a much more well-rounded martial artist, excellent takedowns and takedown defense, good striking skill, excellent groundwork control, aggressive when he needs to be, very strong slams
Weakness'- Effective devastating kicking ability in a LIVE combat situation, needs some work with the boxing and kickboxing skill(Especially the kicking). Other than that he doesnt really have any weakness'.

I see the fight going two ways. I see Randy Coutore making the mistake of utilizing his excellent wrestling ability and trying to smother his opponent encouraging Lee to get extremely lethal and vicious on the inside landing some incapacitating shots then knocking Randy the **** out with about 10 devastatingly fast wing chun boxing stikes right on the button.

Randy would need to box Bruce just like he did Chuck Liddel. If Randy could match Bruce for standup movement and fluidity(Like a pro striker) with the body and head movement I think he could eventually catch Bruce's little fast ass with a KO shot.

TheSnake
12-13-2005, 01:28 PM
Despite what the legend and myth says about Bruce Lee, he did indeed have a dark side to him as the rest of us do but like to deny. The commercialized version of Bruce Lee being one who is extremely intelligent, compassionate, who follows the tao, takes from the rich and gives to the poor was only a part of Bruce Lee. He also had inside of him a very ****y, toughguy who liked kicking peoples asses.

Naturally, in many ways, he was just like alot of other human beings, but his accomplishments are un-paralleled in the martial art scene thus far. If YOU instructed Joe Lewis, I think you might brag a little bit as well. Joe Lewis was a great champion, however, I dont think Bruce Lee actually took credit for all of Lewis' accomplishments as a martial artist but I wasnt there so I dont know. As Bruce Lee has his darkside, so does each and every other individual talking smack about him and his achievements. What people say may not necassarily be the ultimate truth and this is why a comparitive study and analysis(TOTAL Study)is the best way in obtaining something similar to the truth.

Lewis has some good things to say about Bruce, and he has some negative things to say about him and the family. Deep down though, Joe definetly has alot of respect for Bruce.

TheSnake
12-13-2005, 02:02 PM
Bruce Lee vrs Tyson

TOTAL COMBAT

Bruce Lee would definetly be intelligent enough to remain in the kicking range with Mike Tyson the boxer, and he wouldnt try to trade punches with him. As they say sometimes in boxing, when you get aggressive and go for the knockout, you may very get GET knocked out. So what Tyson would need to do is put together some aggressive, yet composed offensive rushes against Lee. Against an extremely aggressive Tyson, Lee's best shot would be to intercept Tyson on his way in because if he gets caught with just one of Tyson's shots, hes pretty much dead. Tyson would want to slightly modify his western boxing stance so he can protect his groin area, and he doesnt want to give Bruce too much of a target with his lead leg. A high hooking, or outside sweeping kick isnt going to work with a boxer like Tyson since a boxer has usually got that all purpose parry up and ready for defense. If Lee is going to go for leg headshots, he would need to take a direct interception approach with a straight kick to Tyson's grill once he lets his defense down. Lee definetly had the speed for this, but he would just need to keep his guard up as hes doing it.

When T tried to advance from the kicking range into punching range with Bruce, Lee would need to check Tysons advance(Leg kicks, or a groin shot if he can land it), utilizing his low-kicking wing chun skill. Tyson is used to fighting people his size or larger so he might actually have trouble FINDING a very moble and fluid Bruce Lee, but if and when he does, baby, Lee would be ****ing dead. Personally I think Lee would take it though. Hes TOTAL and alot smarter than Tyson. I see Tyson getting nailed in his balls, Lee getting inside and ripping Tysons head off while some random guy in the backround exclaims: "FATALITY".

TheSnake
12-13-2005, 02:41 PM
Maybe I've helped you people to come to some sort of conclusion when exploring combat. If you are going to compare a deadly fighter to a sport-fighter, I think its best to compare the two in a no-rules or regulations environment. This way the deadly combatant has all of his tools, and the sport-fighting champion will get to keep all of his combat skills as well.

Nailing vulnerable points or incapacitating your opponent in any way possible in a total combat situation is not punk-hearted in any way. However, in a sport-fighting environment where the illusion of honor is present, and when two combatants agree to a set of rules prior to the contest; then it may be punk like to hit a groin shot on someone. On the street, or on the battlefield in a hand to hand combat situation, thinking with a style of rules in the face of death is punk-hearted.

With this said, you need to know where you are with your combat and always remember that efficiency is anything that lands. Just because somebody may be aiming for an incapacitating maneuver doesnt mean they will land it for sure. Just like any other blow, the groin shot, finger jab etc. needs to bypass the opponents defense. If a sport-fighter can land a knockout punch before the deadly man gets a shot off, that is efficiency. The advantageous part of total combat fighting is that your opponent might not be expecting some of the maneuvers you are trying to pull off. The deadly combatant always has an advantage over a partial combatant.

Here is a combat scenario I have tested out in sparring. In Jiu-Jitsu, when you have mounted the other man, the man on the bottom usually has feeling of defeat present. If you are mounted, from the bottom(With a much larger man on top of you), you can spin over on your stomach and begin to play possum while going into the ultimate defense position. Now the top guy can pound you out on the back of the head, but if he does this you have the chance to roll away and get back on your feet if you are smaller. Usually the top guy will go for a submission maneuver when he sees the back of his opponent, its instinct. But when the opponent goes for a choke, you have successfully closed the gap between you two and youve got his head right over your shoulder. From this position you can effectively rake his eyes, and possibly get back to your feet. Now you might not be able to tie up a much larger fighter on top of you after he has mounted you since he may be able to just hold you down and pound you to death. In a total combat situation, dont be afraid to scramble and try to roll out of the much larger opponets clutches. If hes stupid enough to try and choke you on the street, you get to keep one of his eyes as a suveneer. If you can roll away and get back on your feet, youve got another shot at boxing him. POINT: You dont want to grapple with a much larger opponent. But if it boils down to it, you will still have a shot. In total combat, there is ALWAYS a way! Fear no one!

Super Goku
12-14-2005, 10:47 AM
I disagree.

Super Goku
12-14-2005, 01:22 PM
I disagree.

I also promise to no longer be crass in the obscene with regards to what I really wrote.

This type of post will not be tolerated. The next with this type of content will cause a vote for banning.

hen
12-15-2005, 08:40 PM
"Tyson in his prime - young tyson with Cus in his corner - woulda ate Ali's lunch."

Don't Know if the young tyson woulda ate Ali's lunch.

But am pretty sure

A older tyson woulda ate Ali's eras, or tried.....:D

SevenStar
12-21-2005, 10:35 AM
You've got to understand the difference between a competition fighter and a deadly combatant. There are the people who fight in cages and rings constantly trying to prove to the world how great they are in their division, and then there are deadly combatants who actually apply themselves to REAL warfare without any rules. Combat in its totality has no rules and regulations.

you guys have to realize that the difference between the two is NOT as great as you'd like to think it is. a principle is a principle is a principle. My left hook works just as well in the street as it does in the ring. How do I know? I've gotten to use it in both places. Now, the deadly pressure points and strikes I've "learned". I cannot use them actively in sparring and competition, consequently i probably could not pull them off in a fight either. Basics are key, and it really doesn't matter if those basics are from muay thai or shorin ryu, etc.


There are good reasons why they have weight classes in sport-fighting. One of the most important reasons is equality. They want competitive bouts featuring two people of nearly equal status so the fights will be entertaining. Also, sports like boxing are designed so that there is only one way of taking out your opponent(Punching to the upper body and head).

Why? Because the little guy will get KTFO by the big guy. that has nothing to do with target choices available. Theoretically, the faster little guy could still dance aroung the bigger guy and hold his own, but the simple reality is that that won't happen. In the street, a little guy that is trained can take a bigger guy that is untrained (and even that can be a problem) but if the little, trained guy runs into a bigger, trained guy, it will be a HUGE problem.


In a boxing bout where skill is involved(most of the time), you cant just match up a 300 pound man against a 130 pound man. With the rules and regulations that the two combatants aggreed to prior to the match, the smaller man will not have a chance. The larger opponent may not even need to utilize his boxing skill. He will be alot stronger than 130 pound man which means that the 300 pound man can take his weakest point and attack the smaller mans strongest point and it would still be stronger than the little guys.

bingo. This is no different in the street.


Combat sports are awesome to watch and I dont wish to offend any sport-fighters by saying that competition fighting isnt total fighting(Because I respect competition martial artists). In a total combat situation, speed can be the definitive factor.

How does that not apply to a sport fight?


Without protective gear, if you land a lightning fast incapacitating maneuver to the opponent right off the bat, thats pretty much it. Take Randy Coutore vrs Vitor Belfort II for example: UFC 46(Super Natural). Belfort caught Randy in the eye in under a minute of the first round and Randy was pretty hurt. Eyes, groin, shin, throat; these are the most vulnerable points on the human body and they can be struck in a total combat situation with extreme precision before your opponent even recognizes what hit him.

the eyes and throat move, and they are guarded. They can be hard to hit if the opponent doesn't want you to. I've asked someone to deliberately hit me in the throat while sparring before - he couldn't do it. It's easy to say, "just punch him in the throat", but in reality it's much harder than that. The groin isn't an almight fight ender either. I've been kicked there (as have several others I know, and we agree...)... that we didn't feel it until after the fight was done.

SevenStar
12-21-2005, 10:43 AM
Here is a combat scenario I have tested out in sparring. In Jiu-Jitsu, when you have mounted the other man, the man on the bottom usually has feeling of defeat present. If you are mounted, from the bottom(With a much larger man on top of you), you can spin over on your stomach and begin to play possum while going into the ultimate defense position. Now the top guy can pound you out on the back of the head, but if he does this you have the chance to roll away and get back on your feet if you are smaller. Usually the top guy will go for a submission maneuver when he sees the back of his opponent, its instinct. But when the opponent goes for a choke, you have successfully closed the gap between you two and youve got his head right over your shoulder. From this position you can effectively rake his eyes, and possibly get back to your feet. Now you might not be able to tie up a much larger fighter on top of you after he has mounted you since he may be able to just hold you down and pound you to death. In a total combat situation, dont be afraid to scramble and try to roll out of the much larger opponets clutches. If hes stupid enough to try and choke you on the street, you get to keep one of his eyes as a suveneer. If you can roll away and get back on your feet, youve got another shot at boxing him. POINT: You dont want to grapple with a much larger opponent. But if it boils down to it, you will still have a shot. In total combat, there is ALWAYS a way! Fear no one!

Wow, big assumption there. I grapple. And guess what my first thought was when I read that you rolled over, exposing your back...It wasn't to choke, as you say is instinct. I had two thoughts, then combined them to one.

1. keep punching and elbowing, right at the base of your neck.
2. grab your head and start slamming it into the concrete.

SimonM
12-21-2005, 06:25 PM
Why? Because the little guy will get KTFO by the big guy. that has nothing to do with target choices available. Theoretically, the faster little guy could still dance aroung the bigger guy and hold his own, but the simple reality is that that won't happen.


That's what happened in my last match. They put me up against a guy who was about 2 inches shorter than me and about 80 lbs lighter. I didn't always put gloves on him when he ran but his strikes didn't do jack to me when he hit (and my defense was better trained than his so his hit ratio was no better than mine) and on those occasions when I DID hit him it counted. I knocked the guy five feet sideways with one punch.


The groin isn't an almight fight ender either. I've been kicked there (as have several others I know, and we agree...)... that we didn't feel it until after the fight was done.

Yo Seven* I'll back up this comment too. When the adrenaline is pumping full out and all your concentration is on your opponent it's surprising what you can just brush off. Groin shots definately fall into this category.:eek:

SimonM
12-21-2005, 06:28 PM
Wow, big assumption there. I grapple. And guess what my first thought was when I read that you rolled over, exposing your back...It wasn't to choke, as you say is instinct. I had two thoughts, then combined them to one.

1. keep punching and elbowing, right at the base of your neck.
2. grab your head and start slamming it into the concrete.


Dude! That's just mean!

But, yeah, if I've got my 240 lbs sat on a guys chest I rarely go for the choke when I could be driving my big ol' fists into his face.

PangQuan
12-21-2005, 08:47 PM
I think actual groin shots are a bit better when used with hand methods like eagle claw or tigers jaw.

If i get a hold of your junk either one of those, ill be willing to bet you will not be liking it. :p

a groin strike is a better in a situation of suprise.

TheSnake
12-29-2005, 08:34 PM
I want to let you people know I didnt really come here to debate with you.

I am not interested in arguing I am mostly interested in expanding the idea of a total combat scenario where the environment is also considered. Bruce Lee's style of fighting was something similar to the 'Total Combat' I talk about, pretty much the same thing.

Total combat is the essense of Jeet Kune Do's way of thinking practically applied in combat. Thats what Ive come up with. Ive drawn the essense of JKD and refer to is is TC.

PangQuan
12-29-2005, 08:38 PM
do tell....

TheSnake
12-29-2005, 09:56 PM
“you guys have to realize that the difference between the two is NOT as great as you'd like to think it is. a principle is a principle is a principle. My left hook works just as well in the street as it does in the ring. How do I know? I've gotten to use it in both places. Now, the deadly pressure points and strikes I've "learned". I cannot use them actively in sparring and competition, consequently i probably could not pull them off in a fight either. Basics are key, and it really doesn't matter if those basics are from muay thai or shorin ryu, etc.”

Well the definitive factor is totality without restriction. I even said earlier on this same board I think: That if you are compare a deadly street fighter to a sport fighter, you should do some in a NO RULES environment. This way the street fighter has all of his tools, and so does the sport-fighting champion. As Lee says, “efficiency is anything that lands.”(As I pointed out earlier.)

EX: If a devastating sport fighting striker can crack a shaolin kung fu expert before he can gouge out the sport-fighters eye, that is effieciency and the Shaolin could potentially be incapacitated if the boxer connects well.

Again, the difference here is indeed a big one and it is totality in combat without rules or regulations. The deadly street fighter or a shaolin knight will have a vast land of tools to select from and utilize in a combat situation in comparison to the systemized sport-fighting techniques of a kickboxer or grappler.

I personally haven’t studied a deadly pressure point system just yet, but I will in the future. I believe a lot of the pressure point system fighting is involved with Chinese Shaolin Kung Fu and Asia. I’m sure you can find pressure point fighting elsewhere, but I believe it is mostly in shaolin.

Straight to the point-you’re a kid. Real deal combat proficiency in the art of shaolin is not achieved in just a matter of years like boxing. It will take a while to get to the point to where you can actually execute a pressure point on a moving target. That stuffs just not easy ladies, it takes mastery. You have to know the human anatomy very well and you have to KNOW the points to start. After a muay thai clinch, or once the two opponents begin grappling, then it is more likely for the executants to land a devastating pressure point. Since Shaolin Kung Fu and things like this take some much time to actually achieve proficiency in, people(Americans usually) usually like to discard this type of stuff as impractical under real life fighting condition.

Hitting a finger jab on someone isn’t that hard.

TheSnake
12-29-2005, 10:08 PM
“Why? Because the little guy will get KTFO by the big guy. that has nothing to do with target choices available. Theoretically, the faster little guy could still dance aroung the bigger guy and hold his own, but the simple reality is that that won't happen. In the street, a little guy that is trained can take a bigger guy that is untrained (and even that can be a problem) but if the little, trained guy runs into a bigger, trained guy, it will be a HUGE problem.”

Well this above statement is a theory, bud. And nothing else. The way the rules of boxing are constructed would no doubtedly award a much larger man a victory against a little guy. However, I think you’ve missed my point. When combat is TOTAL, not partial, anything can happen. A giant at 6’10, 380 lbs, against a 5’7 man weighing in at 185 pounds which is equally skilled—The giant could be defeated as easily as the little man could. Most of the advantages the giant has can also be considered disadvantages. His weight will definetly make him slower than the smaller man. It would take an accumulation of blows to take out the larger man whereas it would only take one or two to incapacitate the much smaller man. That’s what it comes down to.

Don’t let the constructed rules of sport-fight leave you with the illusion that “Well the bigger guy will beat up the little guy”. It just doesn’t go that way in total combat.

TheSnake
12-29-2005, 10:19 PM
“bingo. This is no different in the street.”

Yes, I was specifically talking about the sport of boxing. Now if you were to bring a ring and some rules with you to the street, youd be absolutely correct. You would have your boxing bout in the street and the result would be as expected.

“How does that not apply to a sport fight?”

Your taking what Im saying out of context trying to prove a point, but in actuality, your sortof agreeing with me but you just don’t know it.

Speed CAN be the definitive factor in a sport-fight.

“the eyes and throat move, and they are guarded. They can be hard to hit if the opponent doesn't want you to. I've asked someone to deliberately hit me in the throat while sparring before - he couldn't do it. It's easy to say, "just punch him in the throat", but in reality it's much harder than that. The groin isn't an almight fight ender either. I've been kicked there (as have several others I know, and we agree...)... that we didn't feel it until after the fight was done.”

Yes thank you for your partial piece of information that isn’t getting anyone anywhere. I said earlier that you have to find an opening to land a finger jab just like you would to fire a jab off. Finger jabs aren’t hard to land, especially in a clinch of some sort. Throat shots can be harder to land in standup because a good striker will usually keep his hands up and his chin down concealing his throat. If you want to land a through shot, you should try an extremely fast and powerful SNAKE flat handed slice to the throat once you get them to lift the chin up. Shaolin Snake style can teach you more about incapacitating shots like this.

In the UFC, these deadly maneuvers just aren’t aloud. But in a real fight, where it actually counts for something other than a belt or a trophy, where there are no rules, devastating shots to a big man will take his heart right away and suppress that fighting spirit with pain, discomfort, and fear of death.

Pay attention next time so you actually know what your trying to point out and argue against.

TheSnake
12-29-2005, 10:29 PM
"Wow, big assumption there. I grapple. And guess what my first thought was when I read that you rolled over, exposing your back...It wasn't to choke, as you say is instinct. I had two thoughts, then combined them to one.

1. keep punching and elbowing, right at the base of your neck.
2. grab your head and start slamming it into the concrete."

Assumption? It was a Jiu-Jitsu scenario with no rules. Sorry to explore the art of combat. Do you feel upset or something? I actually remember stating that the top guy can also punch to the back of the head from that position, which you basically used for your number 1 attack^. If you agree with me, agree with me. If you want to eleborate, or add something, thats fine too.

Here is a counter scenario for your two attack after you take the opponents back. If you dont take the choke immedietly this means that, although youve got back control, your opponent is still partially mobile and can do some devastating demage from this position. If you dont headlock him, and you try to punch and elbow, he can lean forward and roll out, or create some sort of scramble. That is easy to do, if done it.

If your going to grab the head and pound(in street fight), it would be much wiser to do this to a man who has longer hair. Hair-immobilization, then pounding. Otherwise youve just got your two hands on his head trying to bash it on the concrete, and you dont really have to much control of it. Unless you got his back while he is face down. AND you got a reach advantage on him. You can reach down from the back-mounted position and slamm his head. But if you position your body in that way, he can swiftly create a scramble.

TheSnake
01-03-2006, 08:31 PM
Bruce Lee was talking about a "real fighter" that will be able to accomplish something even if he gets completely devastated in the process. What he is basically referring to was a person with an iron will that will go into a fight with a violent intention, basically not even worrying about victory or defeat, and he will concentrate on doing his act of violence from the beginning of the fight.

EXAMPLE: Like biting someones ear off. If you go into a hand to hand fight concentrated from the beginning on biting your opponents ear off, regardless of whether or not you win the fight-its likely that you will achieve your goal even if you are battered and beaten.

When striking vital points in a fight, you should have this same devastating determination and you need to be explosively fast, especially against a huge person. Striking to the eyes, throat, groin, etc. may not end the fight but if you land a solid shot on the average man, you may unlock a part of the opponents defense(getting him to remove his guard) to set yourself up for more decisive finishing shots.

wingchun187
01-06-2006, 08:23 AM
i started training jkd in michigan in 1995 with my brother and found a great jkd school in 1997 i loved the wing chun and the submition wrestling i moved to florida in 2000 and sence then i stuck with a great wing chun school that does ground and standup fighting and i found my home here ....i give thanks to my old jkd school and friends back in michigan but for me wing chun is the what i needed in my martial arts journey and still train daily :)

Vash
01-06-2006, 09:44 AM
Let me tell you a story.

It's a story about a horse. Well, this horse you see, it died. In life, this horse had served many a person's purpose. In death, these people thought it should do the same. To get it all up and movin' again, these people beat the horse. The dead horse. And still, the horse did not move.

So, they took the DNA from this horse, cloned it, and brought a new horse into the world. This horse too died. So, they kept beating the dead clone horse 'till it could take no more beatings and fell apart.

Did this stop the people from a-beatin' it? Nay. They broke out the sewin' kit an' stitched her right back up. Then, they sacrificed some little Baptist babies and, usin' the blood thereof, performed a rather archiac form of necromancy on the horse so that it could once again take the beatings.

When that didn't work, they kinda started bangin' there heads against the ground. Wailing and gnashing of teeth followed.

Samurai Jack
01-08-2006, 03:53 AM
Dude. Three words:

Larry... Mo.... Curly...

It's obvious they were devastating street fighters back in the day. The Three Stooges didn't f$%# around. They went straight for the eyes, the groin, and they were TOTALLY WILLING to bite the ears.

I heard that once they met this nasty old rich lady in the Bronx, and poured whitewash all over her head! Then, when the cops came to take 'em down, the bald one (obviously a shaolin Monk), totally started doing this bad as$ dog style kung fu on the cop, all barking and slobbering!

Those dudes wouldn't take cr ap from anybody.

Dim Wit Mak
01-08-2006, 08:30 AM
Dude. Three words:

Larry... Mo.... Curly...

It's obvious they were devastating street fighters back in the day. The Three Stooges didn't f$%# around. They went straight for the eyes, the groin, and they were TOTALLY WILLING to bite the ears.

I heard that once they met this nasty old rich lady in the Bronx, and poured whitewash all over her head! Then, when the cops came to take 'em down, the bald one (obviously a shaolin Monk), totally started doing this bad as$ dog style kung fu on the cop, all barking and slobbering!

Those dudes wouldn't take cr ap from anybody.


LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!:D

yenhoi
01-08-2006, 02:40 PM
cyborg horse w/regenerating nano technology.

:rolleyes:

Vash
01-08-2006, 06:08 PM
Bah. There be dark magic in this equine.

Taiji-Rory
01-18-2006, 09:32 AM
Sorry Guys I could not be bothered to read through the substantial back log of posts on this particular topic so, I'll just add my two 'penith' worth if no one objects...

I love Bruce Lee I am, what you might call a Bruce Lee fan boy, his fighting is fast and stylish and its a joy to watch, but I think perhaps our Mr. Lee's Gung Fu was not as phenomenal as every one says, Its uncomfortable for me to write this, and I hope I'm not upsetting anyone by expressing my opinion, but he never tested his Gung Fu in middle China, and that’s where the Gung Fu best always come from, I think he was an skilled fighter, highly motivated and charismatic, but his actual Gung Fu skills were mid level in China, merely average.

SimonM
01-22-2006, 07:20 AM
but he never tested his Gung Fu in middle China, and that’s where the Gung Fu best always come from, I think he was an skilled fighter, highly motivated and charismatic, but his actual Gung Fu skills were mid level in China, merely average.

Gosh these supreme masters are hiding well then. Why won't any of them spar with me. :( :p Over here in middle-china (with Nei Mongu above us, shaanxi to the west, Beijing to the east and henan to the south it doesn't get much more in the middle of China than west-central Shanxi) there are plenty of Bruce Lee fanboys who try to adopt his mannerisms... But I haven't seen any people with really WOW skills here in Lishi. My current Sifu is OK, his Wushu is beautiful, but I don't know who would win in a fight, him or me.

There are good fighters everywhere. There are bad fighters everywhere. Bruce was better than me but I still think he wasn't up to WJM.

Zaharia
01-23-2006, 02:39 PM
Anybody that says Bruce Lee sucked should read the 'Bruce Lee Library', especially 'The Tao of Jeet Kune Do'! That should set them straight.

SimonM
01-23-2006, 06:48 PM
I have - in fact the Tao of Jeet Kune Do was the second martial arts manual I ever read. Honestly it's nothing particularly unique. :rolleyes:

PangQuan
01-27-2006, 05:21 PM
ya, bruce was one bad motha, but im pretty sure my sifu would pwn him.

tansaujosh
02-01-2006, 01:24 PM
how bout every one gives it a rest, he was one of the first great *known* MA'S. we know this from footage documents and other people that knew, learnt and were good frendz with him, their first hand accounts of his effort and capabilty. peace to all you bruce lee inspired people and followers of his ways, to all you people that cant accept him...........grow up. R.I.P. bruce lee let the man rest now.

TaiChiBob
02-02-2006, 08:07 AM
Greetings..

Like it or not, everyone practicing CMA today has benefitted from BL's contribution to the Arts.. it is unlikely that we would have the same landscape in CMA that we do without his influence.. that is not to infer he was the best ever, that is unlikely, too.. but, he did move CMA into the public spotlight and empowered many people to seek the CMA path.. for that we should simply be grateful.. otherwise it is mostly opinion and speculation, BFD.. he has my personal gratitude.. and, he was a great entertainer..

Be well..

puma
02-14-2006, 12:17 AM
Can any of you guys that say Bruce Lee suck do better than he did??
I don't believe ANY OF YOU have been in any movies or influnced the
martial arts community or as many people as he did...THE MAN IS A HERO...
at least he is to me
Have any of you who say he couldn't fight or was just a decent martial
artist fought the man??
Most of you were probabaly children when the man was alive...it's easy to talk
sh.t about the man 32 and a half years after he passed away
As far as i know the man was NEVER BEATEN while he was alive
Created a martial arts system
Probably was the first martial artist that bought cross-training to the
mainstream as well as martial arts itself and influnced millions of people
to study martial arts...regardless of style
Growing up with out a steady father figure in my life he was one of the
few positive things i looked up to and adored...even though i did turn out
to be a mean contemptable *******:)

bcbernam777
02-19-2006, 02:01 AM
I have - in fact the Tao of Jeet Kune Do was the second martial arts manual I ever read. Honestly it's nothing particularly unique. :rolleyes:


Actually it was unique in many respects perhaps you do not view it as uniqe because you have "heard it all before" but you would never have heard it if it had not have been for Bruce. However even in saying that the majority of the principles outlined in the book are from Wing Chun any way so I guess in that case there is no originalty as such, it was simply that westerners had not he3ard of this before. So it was unique to westerners, and those outside of the Wing Chun set, but not ubnique to those in the Wing Chun circle.

SimonM
02-19-2006, 02:22 AM
because nobody in China listens to Nirvana and I sing it sometimes

Thing is my beef with Bruce runs thusly:

He was a shameless self promoter and despite being a decent fighter he wasn't the "Great Messiah of Martial Arts" that people make him out to be.

See the idea that people should adapt martial arts to their personal experience and needs and the idea that a good martial art was not a static thing but rather an evolving process, they had been kicking around the Gong Fu world for thousands of years. When Bruce entered the scene they had only just started to go out of fashion in favour of the rigour mortis which has sadly paralized many branches of our art.

But because the ignorant Laowai don't know bull about China or about asian martial arts Bruce said that this was a brilliant new concept that he had invented.

Then he went so far as to divorce his entirely CMA roots from himself and rather than saying that he had adjusted Jun Fan WC techniques to make them more applicable he said "this is not Gong Fu, this is Jeet Kune Do"!

All the while he was doing something that better sifus had been doing all along! They just wern't hollywood movie stars and didn't play Kato on the Green Hornet.

That's my beef with Bruce Lee.

Was he a skilled martial artist? Yes!

Was he "the best" then? Hell no!

Is he "the best" today? Doubly hell no!!!

fiamacho
02-19-2006, 08:50 PM
I almost cant believe I'm responding to this again. But there are a few comments that have been made I think should be responded to.
First Infrazael. Iron Mike Tyson was great in his early years, but Ali fought and beet, Big George Forman ,and I think Forman was much stronger and hit harder than Tyson.

Siu Lum Fighter, all those K1...no holds barred competition fighters are Young tough thugs, Those kind of men have always been around,I dont think they are anything special, except they are willing to fight for money.and at this time they are somewhat a novelty, as time passes we will see how they stack up.
What set Bruce Lee and Ali, and some others, apart from the mass's is they excelled at what they did beyond all others at there time.
How would they do against some of today's fighters? who knows... we will never really know. But I can tell you on Bruce Lee's behave, the men that he tough, his stile of fighting to, are still today some of the best fighters in the world, If nothing else, that should be a pointer to his greatness.
Bruce Lee had the abilities to teach and do things that others,today can not do.
I would suggest to you, quite trying to knock down his image. Isn't it funny that more than 30 years after his death he is still one of the most known martial artiest in the world.Ide suggest to you that in its self is a true test of his greatness.( to live beyone your own death)

C.A.G.

This is the most intelligent post in the entire debate!!!

Ultimatewingchun
02-27-2006, 09:12 AM
"He (Bruce Lee) was way too small to compete in the tournaments of his time although I think he did do a demo at one of Ed Parker's tournaments. People like Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, and Joe Lewis were much bigger and quite frankly much better and could have easily beaten him in the ring." (rfbrown3) (.....post#22 on this thread)


***WHAT BULL !!!

Met Dan Inosanto in 1979 when he spent a week at Moy Yat's wing chun school here in NYC....amoungst other things...Dan said that the beating Bruce gave Chuck Norris behind closed doors was so bad that it was "embarrassing to watch."

That's an exact quote.

And Inosanto has always been a man of integrity. He wouldn't say such a thing if it weren't true.

BRUCE LEE WAS AN AWESOME FIGHTER.


period.

Phil Redmond
02-27-2006, 04:28 PM
Those of you that said that Bruce Lee only had that one famous fight are incorrect. William Cheung was Bruce Lee's best friend and introduced Bruce to Wing Chun by taking him to Yip Man's class in HK. In William Cheung's book, "City of Dragons: Ah Hing Dragon Warrior" he writes about the fights they had. They were teenagers fighting for real against grown men sometimes armed with knive and choppers.
PR

Phil Redmond
02-27-2006, 08:16 PM
Excerpt from William Cheung's book.
[William Cheung talking]
" . . .Out of the corner of my eye I saw Looney yelling yelling and kicking wildly as three gang members dragged him into an alleyway. As I hammered a man in the head while he tried to grab me, I saw Phoenix (Bruce Lee), in a fight against what must have been five men. They had successfully separated him from the crowd. . . "

yenhoi
02-27-2006, 10:34 PM
He was a shameless self promoter and despite being a decent fighter he wasn't the "Great Messiah of Martial Arts" that people make him out to be.

But because the ignorant Laowai don't know bull about China or about asian martial arts Bruce said that this was a brilliant new concept that he had invented.

Then he went so far as to divorce his entirely CMA roots from himself and rather than saying that he had adjusted Jun Fan WC techniques to make them more applicable he said "this is not Gong Fu, this is Jeet Kune Do"!


When did any of this happen?

Your a buzzkill.

:rolleyes:

WOW
03-04-2006, 10:33 AM
Those of you that said that Bruce Lee only had that one famous fight are incorrect. William Cheung was Bruce Lee's best friend and introduced Bruce to Wing Chun by taking him to Yip Man's class in HK. In William Cheung's book, "City of Dragons: Ah Hing Dragon Warrior" he writes about the fights they had. They were teenagers fighting for real against grown men sometimes armed with knive and choppers.
PR

I would be careful what people write, in particular about fights against armed assailants. Not that I am doubting the author, but certain amount of self promotion.... I know very little about or have nothing against the author or BL. :)

jethro
03-09-2006, 10:11 PM
this may have been posted in the last 8 pages, but I didn't want to read through it all, it was a quick fight:eek:

Phil Redmond
03-10-2006, 11:40 AM
I would be careful what people write, in particular about fights against armed assailants. Not that I am doubting the author, but certain amount of self promotion.... I know very little about or have nothing against the author or BL. :)
Very true. I'm always careful about what I read. I've studied with four of Yip Man's students over the last 36 years and have heard stories like this from them as well.
With regards to fighting armed assailants here's a story that made the Hong Kong newspapers. It involved an 18 year old William Cheung fighting against sailors armed with knives and choppers:
This was taken from Duncan Leung's website site.
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/

. . . . In 1957 another early student of Yip Man, William Cheung, immigrated to
Australia. On the way there an incident occurred when he locked himself in the
sailors cabin and fought more than 10 sailors. This got into all the
newspapers and so Wing Chun was even known in Australia then. About a year
later, Bruce Lee left for the United States. . . . .
I also can speak about fighting for you life with fixed bayonets and K Bars in Vietnam. It is possible to survive against armed assailants. I did.

Hatsuyuki
03-15-2006, 05:26 PM
Phil:

Where abouts on that site was the newspaper article?

Cheers.

Phil Redmond
03-21-2006, 03:59 PM
Phil:

Where abouts on that site was the newspaper article?

Cheers.
I've heard the same story form some other WC Sifus but have never seen the article. I've been trying to find it in old Hong Kong archive but this happened long ago. There might not be any records available online. I'd first have to know which particular Hong Kong newspaper ran the article.
Phil

Infrazael
03-30-2006, 01:55 PM
Wow. . . . . .

I brought this thread back to life, and now it's like a cancer that won't go away.

Lol.