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Sean Madigan
03-29-2000, 10:26 PM
I am happy to announce the release of "Jeet Kune Do; Bruce Lee's Way of the Intercepting Fist" instructional video tape series. This video series is the official video series for BIG JKD.

In it you will find everything you need to get your started on a fantastic training program that will lead to you having an excellient understanding of Bruce Lee's fighting method.

1 - "Basic Tools" - This tape shows all of the basics involved with Bruce's art. The stance (Bi-jong), footwork, punches, kicks, traps, all of the original Chinese terminology, and training drills to develop these tools are taught with both the beginner and advanced students in mind.

2 - "JKD Trapping" - This tape goes into dept on the how, why and most importantly, the when for "Trapping" in Jeet Kune Do. Don Chi Sau, Seong Chi Sau, Punch Pak drill as well as the many other training methods for getting your trapping ready for combat are gone over in fine detail.

3 - "Jun Fan Kickboxing" - This is an excellent tape that covers what is called the 'Kickboxing aspects' of JKD. You will learn a ton of drills that build a sweat and sharpen your basic tools. This tape is a 'MUST HAVE' for any Jeet Kune Do practitioner wanting to learn how train his tools to a razor’s edge..

The "special price" for each tape is $20 plus shipping. Prices will be set to $30 plus shipping very soon. Contact me if you are interested to reserve the $20 price.

BIG Sean Madigan

E-Mail: Straightlead@Yahoo.com

Ian Brewster
04-07-2000, 05:37 PM
I have seen all of Sean's tapes and they suck!

HAHAHA Just kidding :-)

Here is an unpaid ad for Sean Madigan....

I have yet to see Sean's tapes but I do know he is one the most knowledgable JF/JKD practitioners around. I had the pleasure to train with him and his stand up game is down pat.

BIG JKD is where it's at.....

I have gotten no money for this....though I wish I would :-)


Ian B.

04-08-2000, 01:15 AM
Yo Ian

I'm sure Sean's cheque is in the mail - LOL!!

YODA

Sean Madigan
04-10-2000, 01:13 AM
Hey Ian,

The check is in the mail!

Oh, by the way folks, you can now order my tapes right from the web site!

www.bigjkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)
or
www.junfanjkd.com (http://www.junfanjkd.com)

Thanks in advance!

BIG Sean Madigan

Sean Madigan
05-07-2000, 10:30 PM
Hi All,
Jeet Kune Do: Bruce Lee's Commentaries on the Martial Way is a must have book if you want to really get a taste of Bruce Lee was doing, and researching in his life time.

An expanded sequel to the bestselling The Tao of Jeet Kune Do, this landmark book will serve as a complete presentation of Bruce Lee's art of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do. The development of his unique martial art form, its principles, core techniques, lesson plans, and illustrative sketches are presented in Bruce Lee's own words. 100+ illustrations.

click Here --> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804831319/junfanjeetkunedo

If you are interested in Jeet Kune Do, as it as taught by Bruce Lee, then this book is a MUST HAVE!

BIG Sean Madigan
http://www.junfanjkd.com

Fire-and-Water
05-11-2000, 07:25 AM
I bought that book a month ago.
I would recommend it to fans of Bruce Lee and those who have 20 dollars lying around, but you won't find much in there that you don't already know. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Adrian Pak Mei
06-22-2000, 06:53 AM
Can anybody tell me if this style is taught in England? If so,where?

GinSueDog
06-22-2000, 08:36 PM
Adrian Pak Mei,
Yeah, there are a number of instructors there, I believe David Green aka "Yoda" has a school some place in England. He is a pretty cool guy and maybe able to direct you to a instructor if he is too far. Here is his website below.-ED
http://combatedge.cjb.net/

------------------
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

Sean Madigan
06-22-2000, 10:16 PM
Yo Adrain,

I agree with Gin, you owe it to yourself to look up Dave Green (YODA). He is a great guy, and he knows his stuff.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

06-23-2000, 02:27 AM
Awe shucks guys - blush :-)

Adrian - drop me an email with your location & needs. I'm pretty sure I can sort you out with some useful contacts.

YODA

Adrian Pak Mei
06-23-2000, 10:40 PM
HI,im from bexley england, any schools nearby.

06-24-2000, 03:21 AM
Hi again

Bob Breen (Full instructor under Guro Dan Inosanto) is opening a new school soon in the Dartford area. Contact him at his London Academy for details (see his sdvert in MA Illustrated).

We have an affiliated group to us in Crawley - depends on how far you are willing to travel.

YODA

Adrian Pak Mei
06-24-2000, 08:57 PM
thanks yoda, i dont mind travelling,but willing to wait for the opening of the school in the dartford area.I train in dartford.

06-26-2000, 03:03 AM
Yo Adrian

Good news - the Dartford club is OPEN. In fact, Guro Dan Inosanto is there for a 2 day seminar this weekend (1st & 2nd July) so get your ass down there!!!

Details etc are in this months COMBAT magazine!

If you can't make it perhaps you could come down to Crawley - I'm there conducting a seminar also this weekend. Email me if you want details.

YODA http://combatedge.cjb.net

boardin_usa
06-26-2000, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Adrian Pak Mei:
Can anybody tell me if this style is taught in England? If so,where?[/quote]

Adrian,
Glad to see that your interested in learning Bruce's art, just know that they are two or even more versions of JKD going around. Decide which one you want to learn, then find an instructor. That's my advice. I studied a few of Bruce's books before I started seeking an instructor, and after practicing the stance and parries for three months, I finally found what they said was a JKD instructor. He didn't even know the simple a basic rules of JKD, believe it or not, they are basic rules. He was just a boxer wanna be with an organization behind him. So beware. I'm not putting anyone down, I don't know any of the people that have posted a response. I'm just speaking of my own experience.

steve/18/ireland
07-02-2000, 06:08 AM
is jeet kune do thought in ireland and if so where and is there any books on it what are the best ones i want the titles pleases thanks.

curious
07-20-2000, 03:21 AM
A friend of mine once told me that he once read somewhere that Jeet Kune Do was never intended to be an art to start off with, it was meant to improve upon another art. If a Jeet Kune Do guy with two years of experience were to go up against, say, a kenpo guy with one year of experience, nine times out of ten, the kenpo guy would win. Any thoughts on this?

GinSueDog
07-20-2000, 03:53 AM
Curious,
Hmmm...doubtful but it all depends on a number of different factors. I know a friend that teaches Kenpo and I could beat him almost everytime with boxing techniques alone. It doesn't really mean my way of fighting is better but it could mean my training is better or I am just a better fighter, or that boxing is better, you get my point I hope. For the most part when you learn Jun Fan JKD it is going to be what Bruce Lee orginally taught and found to be effective with few add ons or changes since. If you learn JKD Concepts then it is going to be different from instructor to instructor according to what they have found to be true and effective. Jeet Kune Do is first a way of developing oneself to be the most effective fighter you can be. It is not fixed on one system or style, but is open to whatever is effective. When you learn from a "JKD" school you are learning a shortcut of what the instructor has found to be effective for himself. You could goto two different "JKD" schools and learn from two different instructors and have your "JKD" look completely different but be the same if that makes sense. If your friend is studing Kenpo and says he is appling JKD with it that is fine, but how does he know if he is setting Kenpo as a limitation to his development, he doesn't? In essense to sum up JKD in one word I would say it is crosstraining, taking what is most effective and applying it. I hope that makes sense.-ED

------------------
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 07-20-2000).]

Chameleon
07-20-2000, 03:53 AM
I think nine times out of ten the tougher guy would win....It is more about the individual than the art.

A really tough bar brawler with no martial arts experience would beat the average 1 year kenpo guy, or 2 year JKD guy 9 times out of 10, IMO.

As far as which art will make you a better fighter faster, I think it has more to do with individual instructors and how hard they inspire you to train.

DragonzRage
07-20-2000, 04:35 AM
curious,

That is a tough question because it really depends on what the JKD guy's training is. If you are talking about someone who does Jun Fan (the actual system that Bruce Lee developed) I do not feel that he is at any disadvantage. Jun Fan is a great system. Judging from the generally poor quality of kenpo nowadays, I'd go as far as to say that the Jun Fan guy will usually be at the advantage.

If you are talking about someone who doesn't necessarily study Jun Fan, but practicing under the JKD Concept then it really depends on what his training consists of. Under JKD Concepts the training will vary greatly depending on the instructor and individual tastes. A JKDC guy can practically be anything. In fact, he might even be a kenpo guy! So it really is hard to say.

~Max

DragonzRage
07-20-2000, 04:44 AM
BTW, I think that the idea of JKD being only good for martial artists with prior experience and skill is a big misconception. The thing is that many JKD Concepts people started out as already experienced martial artists. Usually experienced martial artists are able to appreciate the great value in the JKD philosophy of training more so then those people who don't know anything about MA. That's why so many JKD guys come from other MA backgrounds. But any beginner can jump into the realistic approach of JKD and benefit just as much. Take a guy who doesn't know anything and train him in a realistic, well rounded approach (which is what JKDC usually is) and then put him up against a guy trained purely in some classical style and I'd say the JKDC guy will dominate most of the time.

~Max

Tyger
07-20-2000, 08:17 PM
I may be wrong, but this is my understanding based on what I've read:

Jun Fan is Bruce Lee's martial art. It was never completed or perfected, but it was his attempt at honing away what was extranious and leaving behind only what was effective and practical. In this way, it is a valid (if incomplete) martial art no better or worse than most others.

JKD, however, is a philosophy. Lee never intended it to be a martial art in and of itself, but rather a way of THINKING about martial arts. Anybody who has a good grounding in a martial art can adopt a JKD way of thinking and thus change their approach.

That's how I understand it anyway. The reason people SAY they study JKD is because people with MA experience adopted the JKD name to their unique style to honnor Lee or to capitolize on his fame.


------------------
If you want to be great, you have to stop wanting and simply be.

Sean Madigan
07-24-2000, 06:25 PM
Hi All,

Here's your chance to get one of the sharpest Jeet Kune Do T-shirts and tank-tops out there. We just started to sell our official school shirts and tanks. These shirts are the exact ones we use at our ‘Backyard Training Group' in New York City. They are top quality black shirts with gold and red print on both the front and back.

For a glimpse at what they look like, click here: http://www.bigjkd.com/park.htm

The shirts come in both Large and Xtra-Large and they sell for only $20 (plus 3.20 shipping).

Just send a check or money order to:

Sean Madigan
2161 Schenectady Ave.
Brooklyn, New York 11234

Sean Madigan

Kung Lek
07-28-2000, 02:39 AM
Sean, that's a nice shirt but I can't buy one. zippy little site ya got there to.

good for you. you got a good spirit man.

peace

------------------
Kung Lek

Brad
02-03-2001, 11:02 PM
This might be kind of a silly question considering Bruce Lee is the most well known martial artist of our time, but what is Jeet Kune Do? Is it an actual MA system with techniques, or more of a philosiphy toward martial arts which could be incorparated into my training without giving up on my current style?

Demi @ CSPT
02-04-2001, 06:10 PM
Bruce Lee wrote that Jeet Kune Do “is not to hurt, but is one of the avenues through which life opens it’s secrets to us.” Lee also wrote “Do not be concerned with escaping safely! Let him smash your flesh, and you fracture his bone. Let him fracture your bone, and you take his life. Lay your life before him.” Can these two statments exsist at the same time within the conceptual framework of JKD? Of course they can. JKD was a vehicle used for self discovery. What is it we are talking about? Is it Bruce Lee's JKD? No, because I don't care what rock you look under or what closet you peek into it's not gonna be there...!!! We are talking about my JKD and your JKD. JKD can't be owned, can't be organized, can't be taught and it can't be sold. JKD is a process, not a product. It is the individuals experience and growth that "is" JKD, that's what gives it life. There is no boss, no one in charge. There are only those who "train" and share thier experience with others. JKD is also about “self preservation” and “best options” in combat. This is where my primary focus is. It’s not all philosophical, when practiced intelligently it produces results. Understand this however, it is what it is... Circle with no circumfrence?!? Repose in the nothing?!? Diluting JKD?!? Adding other arts?!? There is just totality in combat or there is'nt!!!

People say there is only dark or light but Bruce taught us that there are so many shades of gray... There are no limitations... There is no way... There is no JKD...

Even while Bruce was alive there was never a time when he himself could have put
JKD into a little box and gave it to you as a present... It was always alive and growing just as he was...

Demi Barbito
The C.S.P.T.
www.DemiBarbito.com (http://www.DemiBarbito.com)

02-05-2001, 05:08 AM
Hello Brad!

For an extremely thorough definition of Jeet Kune Do, go to my Jun Fan Fighting Arts Association website at http://www.jffaa.8m.com and read the section titled, "What Is Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do?" After reading that, there will be very little doubt in your mind as to exactly what Jeet Kune Do is!

Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
JUN FAN/JEET KUNE DO

Daedalus
02-06-2001, 07:35 PM
Jeet Kune Do (JKD) is whatever you make it. When you reach that point in your martial arts training where you put aside style and systems because you realize that the reality of combat far exceeds system or style. Then you are touching on JKD. JKD is whatever works best for you. It is "using no way, as your way". Not adhering to any one particular style that you might encompass all styles. For alot of good info on JKD you might check out
http://www.aikia.net

Warhawk
02-07-2001, 12:45 AM
jeet kune do is a concept not a style, where you throw out all ineffective techniques and keep the good ones.

Andreas
02-07-2001, 04:07 AM
To everyone who might be interested:

Howard Williams (recently there were two interviews by him published in the web) offers a new tape about original Oakland JKD performed by him. Everyone who is interested in watching a short clip out of it can send me an email, of course. You will need the newest upgrade of Windows media player to watch it, version 7.
If you watch it pay attention to Howard's hand speed and control, and how each movement flows into the next.
The tape lasts 90 minutes, the price will be $ 45.00 Dollar. If you are interested in the tape you can get it from Howard Williams himself.
Concerning the short clip you can also download it one of the following websites during the next days:

1.) The way of the intercepting fist (http://members.tripod.de/howardwilliams/interceptfist)

2.) Inside Kung Fu interview with Howard Williams (http://members.tripod.de/howardwilliams)

RAYNYSC
02-11-2001, 02:05 AM
Heres a article that was written by Guro Dan Inosanto on Jeet Kune Do under the same title.

What is Jeet Kune Do?

In the past many have tried to define JKD in terms of a distinct style: Bruce Lee's Kung fu, Bruce Lee's Karate, Bruce Lee's Kickboxing, Bruce Lee's System of street fighting. To label JKD "Bruce Lee's martial art" is to completely mistake Bruce Lee's & JKD's meaning. JKD concepts simply cannot be confined within a single system. To understand this,a martial artist must transcend the duality of "for" & "against," reaching for that point of unity which is beyond mere distinction. The understanding of JKD is the direct intuition of this point of unity.
According to Bruce Lee, knowledge in the martial arts ultimately means selfknowledge.

Jeet Kune Do is not a new style of kung fu or karate. Bruce Lee did not invent a new or composite style, nor did he modify a style to set it apart from any existing method. His concept was to free his followers from clinging to any style, pattern, or mold.

It must be emphasized that jeet kune do is merely a name, a mirror reflecting ourselves. There is a sort of progressive approach to JKD training, but as Lee observed: "To create a method of fighting is like putting a pound of water into wrapping paper & shaping it." Structurally, many people mistake JKD as a composite style of martial art because of its efficiency. At any given time jeet kune do can resemble Thai boxing or Wing Chun or Wrestling or Karate. Its weaponry resembles Filipion escrima & kali,in long rage application it can resemble Northen Chinese Kung Fu or Savate.

According to Lee, the efficiency of any style depends upon circumsatnces and the fighting range of distance: the soldier employs a hand grenade at 50 yards, but he chooses a dagger for close-quaters combat. A staff, to take another example, is the wrong weapon to take a fight in a telephone booth, a knife would again be the most appropriate weapon.

Jeet Kune do is niether opposed or unopposed to the cocept of style. We can say that it is outside as well as inside of all particular structures. Because JKD makes no claim to existing as a style, some individual conclude that it is neutral or indifferent to the question. Again, this is not the case, for Jkd is at once "this" and "not this".

A goood Jkd practitioner rests his actions on direct intuition. According to Lee, a style should never be like the Bible in which the principles and laws can never be violated. There will always be differences between individuals in regard to the quality of training, physical make-up, level of understanding,enviromental conditioning, and likes and dislikes. According to Bruce, truth is a "pathless road", thus JkD is not an organization or an institution of which one can be a member. "Either you understand or you don't & that is that, "he said.

When Bruce taught a Chinese system of kung fu(it was shortly after his arrival in the U.S.), he did operate an institute of learning, but after that early period he abandoned his belief in any particular sysytem or style, Chinese or othewise. Lee did say that to reach the masses one should probably form some type of organization, for his own part, he dismissed the notion as unnecessary to his own teaching. Still, to reach the ever growing numbers of students, some sort of preconceived sets had to be established. And as a result of such a move by martial arts organizations, many of their members would be conditioned to a prescribed system, many of their members would end up as prisoners of systematic drilling.

This is why Lee believed in teaching only a few students at any time. Such a method of instuction required the teacher to maintain an alert observation of each student in order to establish the necessary student/teacher realationship. As Lee so often observed, " A good instuctor functions as a pointer of the truth, exposing the student's vulnerability, forcing him to explore himself both interally and externally, and finally intergrating himself with his being."

Martial arts like life itself is in flux in constant arhythmic movements, in constant change. Flowing with this cahnge is very important. And finally, any JKD man who says that JKD is exclusively JKD is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his own self enclosing resisitance, still anchored to reactionary patterns, still trapped within limitation.Such a person has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside of all molds or patterns. Awareness is never exclusive. To quote Bruce: " Jeet Kune do is just a name, a boat used to get one across the river. Once across it is discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

In 1981, the JKD concept was taught in only three places: the filipino Kali Academy in Torreance, California, in Charlotte, North Carolina( where Larry Hartstell taught a few select students) & in Seattle,Washington (under the direction of Taki Kimura). The bulk of the JKD concept is taught in torrance, where the school is under the direction of myself & Richard Bustillo. It is organized in accordance with the premise that a JKD man must undergo different experiences. For example, in Phase 1 & 2 classes at the Filipino Kali Academy, students are taught Western boxing & Bruce Lee's method of kick boxing-Jun Fan.

I deeply feel that students should be taught experiences as opposed to techniques, In other words a Karate practitioner who has never boxed before needs to experience sparring with a boxer. What he learns from that experience is up to him. According to Bruce, a teacher is not a giver of truth, he is merely a guide to the truth each student must find.

The total picture Lee wanted to present to his pupils was that above everything else, the pupils must find their own way to truth. He never hesitated to say, Your truth is not my truth, my truth is not yours".

Bruce did not have a blueprint, but rather a series of guidelines to lead one to proficieny. In using training equipment, there was a sysytematic approach in which one could develop speed,distance,power,timing,coordination,endurance and footwork.

But JKD was not an end in itself for Bruce nor was it a mere by product of his martial studies, it was a means of self discovery. JKD was a prescription for personal growth, it was an investigation of freedom, freedom not only to act naturally and effectively in combat, but in life. In life, we absorb waht is useful and reject what is useless, and add to experience what is specifically our own. Bruce Lee always wanted his students to experience judo,jujutsu,aikido,Western boxing, he wanted his students to explore Chinese systems of sensitvity like wWing Chun, to explore the elements of Kali,Escrima,Arnis, to explore the elements of Pentjak Silat,Thai boxing, Savate. He wanted his students to come to an understanding of the strengths and weakness in each method.

No art is superior or inferior to any other. That is the object lesson of JKD, to be unbound, to be free, in combat to use no style as style, to use no way as the way, to have no limitation as the only limitation. Neither be for or against a particular style. In other words, JKD "just is".

Or to use the words of a Zen maxim to describe jeet kune do, In the landscape of spring there is neither better nor worse. The flowering branches grow, some short, some long.

PEACE

RAYNYSC

RAYNYSC
03-28-2001, 06:07 AM
Anyone care to shed some insite?.... :D

RAYNYSC

rogue
04-01-2001, 12:29 AM
Excellent question!!!

RAYNYSC
04-24-2001, 06:46 PM
I feel that it's the individuality of each persons own process of growth not to mention the differences in attributes like size,speed,power,precision,endurance & even age that will determine what makes Jeet Kune Do,Jeet Kune Do... :D

RAYNYSC

rogue
04-26-2001, 04:20 AM
So a person could study only BJJ or karate and be considered a JKDoka?

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

RAYNYSC
04-26-2001, 07:29 AM
What's JKDoka?.... :confused:

RAYNYSC

RAYNYSC
04-30-2001, 05:30 AM
To answer your question I believe it to be no as BJJ & or KARATE is not Jeet Kune Do!....
Now are there elements of these systems as well as others like: JUDO,JUJITSU,WRESTLING,WING CHUN,WESTERN BOXING,FENCING, SAVATE,THAI BOXING that can be found in Jeet Kune Do? The answer to that is yes there is....

But that dosen't make them Jeet Kune Do!...

As they are what they are a means to express yourself at that given point in time no more no less!....
What matters here is you learn how you deal with the matter at hand no one else not Bruce Lee not Dan Inosanto just you!....

The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less....

In short The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify.It is being oneself;it is reality in its "isness." Thus,isness is the meaning -having freedom in its primary sense,not limited by attachments,confinements,partialization,complexiti es....
BRUCE LEE

That sounds a lot like having to be able to adapt to the matter at hand with out thought...

How you reach that state is another story LOL!!!!

RAYNYSC

Martial Joe
04-30-2001, 06:18 AM
I am guessing Jeet Kune Do makes Jeet Kune Do...

dunbarj01
04-30-2001, 06:34 AM
I thought Bruce Lee made JKD what it is. He set the foundation but I don't know who else contributed to JKD not be a JKD person myself.

handsome
04-30-2001, 10:05 PM
First someone should post Bruce Lee's picture instead of MR ROGUE's karate post...
at least that's one of million ways to show the world JKD is still alive instead of MR ROGUE...
What do all your JKD people think???

rogue
05-01-2001, 05:12 AM
Let's face facts, Bruce Lee wasn't a Kano, Yip Man, Fairbairn, Hellio Gracie or Morihei Ueshiba.


So Ray, according to your post and logic anything could be JKD.

If karate is my means to express myself then it passes that test. If it teaches me to adapt and deal with the matter at hand, which karate can, then it passes that test also.

Don't take this wrong, but even JKD people don't know what JKD is or isn't. Is it simply a concept or an art, it can't be both. If it's a concept it can be applied to any art, if it can't then it's not a concept.

"The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less...."
Well what if the persons process involves by-passing the art of JKD altogether and instead studies Preying Mantis or Lama Pei, all the while sticking with the concepts of JKD.
One of the reasons I left JKD was all the psycho-babble many of the students spouted about JKD vs traditional arts such as JUDO, JUJITSU, WRESTLING, WING CHUN, WESTERN BOXING, FENCING, SAVATE, THAI BOXING. Which I'll point out JKD is dependent on to give it techniques to use, and not the other way around. What new thing outside of the concepts has JKD come up with?

Sadly JKD is on it's way to be a marketing catch phrase and not an art that contributes anything new to the martial arts.

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-01-01 at 08:19 PM.]

Watchman
05-01-2001, 11:22 PM
http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

That make you happy, Handsome?

Daedalus
05-01-2001, 11:23 PM
JKD is not bound by tradition.
...is not stagnant.
...is not a style.(but rather is the absence of style)
...is not a merely a collection of other martial arts.(JKD assumes formlessness that it may assume all forms).
...is not impractical or inefficient.
...is not set in stone.

Watchman
05-02-2001, 12:19 AM
Sounds like a Nike commercial. :D

rogue
05-02-2001, 05:05 AM
...is not a merely a collection of other martial arts.(JKD assumes formlessness that it may assume all forms).

No, it's a collection of other martial arts techniques. And sorry to say if you think JKD is formless you better work on your Zen. You quote and follow the teachings of Bruce Lee? You got form. You include certain techniques but exclude others? You have form.

...is not a style.(but rather is the absence of style).
It's a style.


C'mon stop the Jibba Jabba guys and come up with a real defintion.

JKDoka favorite movie is Cleopatra, because she was the queen of de nial. :D

Watchman, where did Yip Man get that really cool JKD training device?
<table>
<td>
http://www.cda2.net/isshinryu/images/sumobuko.jpg </td>
<td>
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour
</td>
<td>
http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg
</td>
</table>

Watchman
05-02-2001, 07:16 AM
>>>>>Watchman, where did Yip Man get that really cool JKD training device?<<<<<

From the Brucinator Himself, Rogue. Where else?! Legend has it Bruce also taught him pak sau and the straight blast too. Wing Chun just wouldn't be same today without all that.

Daedalus
05-02-2001, 08:50 PM
The comments that Bruce made about JKD being without form and being absent of style are simply ways of saying "I do what works best for me, regardless of where it comes from."

The mindset is what makes it JKD, not the techniques. Techniques, for the most part are generic.

rogue
05-03-2001, 05:24 AM
"The mindset is what makes it JKD, not the techniques. Techniques, for the most part are generic."

Good answer, so JKD could be based on Judo or Tai Chi Chuan. So could I drop the Wing Chun techniques? Hell, could I scrap every technique from it and start fresh with techniques from totally different arts?

And here's some more pictures of Japanese and Okinawan karate masters.

<table>
<tr>
<td>
http://www.cda2.net/isshinryu/images/sumobuko.jpg </td>
<td>
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour
</td>
<td>
http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg
</td>
</tr>
</table>

dumog93
05-04-2001, 07:01 AM
I am currently in the jkd pipeline of Inosanto's,but i don't see why not.I think what Bruce and many others who i respect are really trying to say is that it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you.I would guess wing chun was a popular pick due to the chi sau and the concepts that go along with it that aren't as integral to other systems.I think the whole idea is to come up with a series of movements that flow into each other in progressive form using the least amount of effort to produce maximum results(end of fight).Following this line of thought all the concepts come into place such as no mindedness,centerline,mirroring,immoveable elbow,etc.I don't see a reason why you couldn't do the same thing with any set of styles that were complimentary to each other,but i do see the limitations of certain styles.Of course most of the karate styles i'm thinking of can be done more "flowing" and without a forward reverse punch if you had the presence of mind to soften things up.Personally i think wing chun is a good core system for anything,but i admit i'm not an expert and i think it will take many,many years before i can probably feel confident with most of my techniques.A few problems i see in many martial arts is the choppiness.I don't need to punch and ki-ai(however you spell it) and admire my work.I would rather flow into something else and get things over with.Another problem are styles that are rooted and think they can take a good grappler out with a snapping front kick or simply sidestep them with a mortal combat move.Unrealistic at best.As long as concepts of the arts you study don't interfere with your personal way of fighting or common sense i would think anything can be jkd.JKD to me just means a coherent system of fighting that covers all the elements and can flow like water or crash like a wave when it has to.A balance of hard and soft techinques,striking,trapping,grappling,and an emphasis on sensitivity and body control(both you and your opponents).This is a lot to cover,so it's only reasonable to expect to spend many years when trying to cover all the bases.I guess i'm trying to see it like i see grappling.I was a wrestler,i now take jiu-jitsu.I don't call myself a wrestler or a bjj guy,just a grappler.I wish people would start to view the stand up portion of the arts the same way.

-Devildog

rogue
05-04-2001, 09:26 PM
"it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you"

I like that alot.

"Of course most of the karate styles i'm thinking of can be done more "flowing" and without a forward reverse punch if you had the presence of mind to soften things up."

They usually do soften up a bunch around black belt, check out the Basai, Tekki and other advanced kata for how techniques should be done.

And are you sure that reverse punch is a punch and not a grab? :)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Sharky
05-05-2001, 08:28 PM
Technically, it is impossible to teach JKD, isn't itt? IT's different for everyone, and the fact that you are teaching someone how to punch a certain way goes against the philosophy of the "art" doesn't it? A tall JKD dude and a short JDK should not fight the same way.

So how come there are so many jkd teachers and schools? There is no problem with an experienced martial artists creating their own style which works, then selling them as self defence classes. where people imitate what he is teaching, but jkd cannot be tought?

Am i wrong?

Edd

Ryu
05-05-2001, 09:32 PM
I hate using Bruce quotes...but
A good JKD instructor should be a "finger pointing to the moon". The one teaching should be charasmatic, experienced, and able to spark the practitioner's creative side. One has to start somewhere, and you can't put a style together unless you have experience for a while. Look at me for instance, My JKD instructor was Paul Vunak, and I trained the way he taught me. However I don't fight like Voo does now. I appreciate his thing, but because of my own experiences I have altered what he showed me. I am a grappler, not a stand-up fighter. I went into judo and BJJ, and used his "RAT" system on the ground instead of standing. I don't straightblast usually unless to get a clinch. Once in a clinch I will pin a guy to the wall or car, etc. and headbutt, knee, etc. If I can get away with going to the ground I have many options. I can simply pin a guy and suffocate him a little (have done that in a couple fights) so I don't have to really hurt him. Or I can step it up, mount, and pummel with headbutts, and elbows. If I have to get up and escape I have his mass attack drills pressed into my experience. I also carry knives, and work with Filipino MA taught to me by Paul as well. So my "style" is no longer like Paul's style. His style may work for him, but through experience, I don't like it as much as being able to immobilize someone. Plus I can injure to degree according to the situation (hopefully..LOL I am not claiming to be Mr. Tough guy or anything...I know what it's like to be pounded by more skilled guys)

Paul's teachings were great for me, but I don't have to "mimic" him. I have my own way of fighting now. It was shaped by my own experiences, not Paul's. That's the way it should be. Hope that helps :)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura

Sharky
05-05-2001, 10:36 PM
heh, well that's that then :D

Edd

Daedalus
05-06-2001, 08:39 PM
Commercialism has given JKD a bad name.

How do you market a concept?

How do you become certified in an idea?

Doesn't make sense,..does it?

But nothing is impossible when money is involved!

No one owns a concept,..JKD has the potential to be unique for each practicioner. However, some people like to imitate Bruce Lee and say that it isn't JKD unless you do the techniques that Bruce did, the way Bruce did them.

I tend to think of what Bruce Lee did as Jun Fan Gung Fu, which was formed using the Jeet Kune Do principles and resulted in the perfect fighting style for Bruce Lee. Doesn't mean its perfect for me and you.

Just my opinion.

rogue
05-06-2001, 08:50 PM
One that I agree with 100%.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Grappling-Insanity
05-08-2001, 08:17 PM
Well what makes it is what you want to make it. No you dont have to study JKD to actually be a JKD practitinor(sp?) in essence. JKD IS NOT A STYLE. It's concepts on how to abandon forms and guidlines. You make it yourselve, yes you can study various different arts and in essence be a JKDer. JKD is what YOU want to make it, however if you are really interested and want to study JKD ideas I suggest you take some classes in JKD. I'm not saying this is the only way to study JKD but I believe these classes help you to flow between styles. How about some pictures of some real good fighters IMOhttp--a1140000.futurism.ws-susumu-pride-010325-susumu16.JPG http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/pride/000827/susumu29.JPG

4 Ranges
05-10-2001, 03:37 PM
...well, if you're talking about JKD as combat discipline, then it is, simply REALISTIC FIGHTING. People like to say "oh, JKD is a compendium of wing chun, savate, boxing, yakety-yak", but it is actually about quickly taking out your opponent(s) in TOTAL COMBAT, regardless of style or technique. If it's not effective in a realistic situation, then it's not JKD. That's why a guy that combines tai chi/judo/bjj/wushu/gymnastics can't call what he's doing JKD...because those arts don't prepare you for, or necessarily deal with, realism. Unless your training revolves around gearing up, and going all out against a single or multiple opponents, you can't even begin to call what you're doing JKD, even if you train at a so-called JKD school.

Now, if you're talking about JKD as combat philosophy, JKD is basically who you are. Don't subscribe to the x-files notion of "the truth is out there." The truth is you. To believe otherwise is to believe that the truth is something that you have to "get", and if you can "get" the truth, you can "own" the truth. Eventually, you have such a ownership over it, you can start "selling" the truth.

That's why JKD can't be anything else other than who you are, because to believe otherwise is to believe that someone else can give it to you. And that's the fastest way to lose your money, and get yourself killed on the street. Teachers can POINT (we all know the quote, so I won't say it), to the truth, because they've seen it before...but that's all their roles require them to do.

Ultimately, JKD is a very simple idea, for those who get it. Like the man said: "JKD: either you get it or you don't." :D

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

[This message was edited by 4 Ranges on 05-11-01 at 06:48 AM.]

Grappling-Insanity
05-10-2001, 08:19 PM
Couldnt have said it better myself....

rogue
05-10-2001, 11:17 PM
I'm going to by-pass the fortune cookie philosophy parts since I've heard those before, hell I've even said them myself up until 2 years ago.

Ultimately, JKD is a very simple idea, for those who get it. Like the man said: "JKD: either you get it or you don't.
If it's simple then everyone should get it, if it's complex then there's an excuse for it being hard to define.

"If it's not effective in a realistic situation, then it's not JKD. That's why a guy that combines tai chi/judo/bjj/wushu/gymnastics can't call what he's doing JKD...because those arts don't prepare you for, or necessarily deal with, realism."

Define "realism". Does realism mean that you actually can get hurt in training or something else. Are you also saying that the throws and chokes of judo and the ground game of bjj won't work on the street and aren't realistic? I've had three JKD instructors, all of whom would take exception to that. Tai Chi if taught properly is also very nasty.

I'll agree with wushu & gymnastics though.

"Unless your training revolves around gearing up, and going all out against a single or multiple opponents..."

I'll counter with "gearing up" not being realistic. I've yet to fight on the street wearing hand wraps, gloves and head gear. Also "going all out" to me means that the people you're fighting really intend to hurt you, other than that it's all just sparring.

Is it safe to say that currently JKD means something different to everyone? And if it does then how can it have a label like JKD.

Concept:
1. A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences.
2. Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion. See Synonyms at idea.
3. Usage Problem. A scheme; a plan:

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

DragonzRage
05-10-2001, 11:46 PM
Too many people are so caught up with criticizing a man who's been dead for years and debating semantics about an abstract concept to ever simply see what JKD simply is. Instead of wasting time with bull philosophical debate, they should just look at the end product and see for themselves. Guro Dan's accomplishment speaks for itself. Sensei Nakamura is one of the most reknowned and respected Shoot wrestlers in the world and his Jun Fan skills are precise and powerful. Paul Vunak has reality street fighting down to a science and he is one of the first Americans to promote Bjj and grappling long before there was a UFC. His insight and abilities are unquestionable. Erik Paulsen- one of the top NHB competitors in his day and undefeated light-heavyweight international Shooto champion. Now he is one of the most respected grappling authorities in the world with his diverse background in the grappling arts. And although Ted Wong doesn't get much press, from what I've seen his students have excellent basics and can employ Jun Fan techniques extremely well. I've had the privilege of training under Sensei Yori, Erik Paulsen and Guro Dan and seeing firsthand what they're all about. I've experienced many different people of many different backgrounds in the MA world and all I can say is that these guys are some of the best and most well rounded martial artists I've ever seen and I can only hope to accomplish what they have. Yet all three of them, as well as the other JKD men I mentioned each have unique teachings and different influences and experiences. What links them together is that they are all **** good and each of them can set an example for you to realize your own potential. THIS is what JKD is all about, IMO. I could care less about all the BS debate about how good Bruce really was, OJKD vs JKDC, and why Guro Dan didn't go to Bruce's birthday party. As for all this nonsense about JKD being a "marketing catch phrase" and stupid philosophical debate, I'll tell you this: ANYONE can prescribe to the philosophies of JKD or teach with a JKD mindset regardless of who taught them or what styles they know. That is the end of the philosophical side right there.

BUT you cannot go around calling yourself a "JKD teacher", etc. JKD may just be a name, but it is a name that people associate with something particular. The name belongs to the men who built it! Guys like Guro Dan, Paul Vunak, Richard Bustillo, Ted Wong, Larry Hartsell and their top students. If you want to train with the JKD mindset, that's perfectly fine. But the minute you start calling yourself a "JKD instructor" or a "JKD practitioner" is the minute you start implying that you have been trained under and endorsed by the people listed above and that you can offer something of their teachings, which you really cannot. That would be doing a disservice to those men as well as the people you are lying to. So please, once you get your black belt in karate and finish reading all your Bruce Lee quotes, don't bother calling yourself a JKD instructor. Because you can be a guest in someone's house. You can get to know them and what they're about. But that doesn't make you part of their family. Once you cut the semantic crap, it's as simple as that.

DragonzRage
05-11-2001, 12:07 AM
Hell, Christianity and Buddhism means something different to lots of the practitioners of these religions. Does that mean that the label of Christianity or Buddhism don't mean anything? No it just shows that people have different ways of thought and of expressing themselves. What unites them are the common roots and the base ideals that they all agree on, no matter what denomination they are from. Perhaps the entire JKD community is not completely united in their ideas, but if you get the all highest seniors and authorities of JKD in one room, I can for **** sure guarantee you that there will be some basic ideas that they will indeed agree on.

By the way, if you don't consider gearing up and sparring "realistic" then I guess you don't consider getting knocked out realistic. I'd really like to hear how you go about doign things "realistically". If you're gonna tell me that you do traditional karate type play sparring I have three words for you: HA...HA...HA. And as for "going all out", man i think you know what he means. Cut the crap and stop playing word games.

rogue
05-11-2001, 05:07 AM
Is bareknuckle sparring (50% to 80% force depending upon rank and experience) realistic enough? Are broken ribs(lots of those), broken hands (mostly from hitting something hard like a guys head, sans headgear, without gloves), dislocated elbows, guys throwing up after getting kicked in the gut, a concussion, a dislocated jaw and yeah, getting knocked out, not to mention the bumps and bruises from landing upon a hardwood floor if you get swept or thrown, good enough for you? Done every class and not once a week or month on a nice mat, real enough?

Guess what, I know it isn't a real situation. Because I know that while we may get "lost in the dance" and do damage to each other, it's still not a street fight. That the fight will end and help given to those that need it.

And one thing I'm laughing at is a JKD guy telling me not to play word games, because the BS the average JKD student runs around spouting is what help turn me off to it in the first place.

I do believe that Inosanto, Vu ( I learned under one of his direct students for a while, very good instructor), Hartsell( grappling before it was cool) and the others you mentioned as knowing what it is. My pokes are at the ones who are clueless and illogical in their definition of JKD. Those who mimick Guro Dan without understanding the mastery the man acheives.

And I'll be honest, I don't know what JKD really is either. I've seen it used as a pure "marketing phrase", a set of concepts, a set of skills called concepts which means that they aren't really concepts, and a martial art unto itself (I'll use the definition of porn, "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it"). If any one can describe it, it would be Inosanto. He knew Lee, trained with Lee and was friends with Lee. But even then there would be those who would contradict him.

The reason JKD is so hard to define is that if you define it as an art then it can't be a concept, but the concept of JKD, to me at least, is what really makes it unique.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

RAYNYSC
05-11-2001, 05:17 AM
I'll say this Rogue, for the most part 4Ranges & DragonzRag kinda sumed up the way I feel about JKD....
So with that being said I would like to thank everyone who has taking there time to reply to this post.....

RAYNYSC

rogue
05-11-2001, 05:38 AM
Could you please give me the succinct version of it to me in a nutshell? ;)

Also does that make the other definitions wrong?
I thought Daedalus & dumog93 came closest to what JKD was to me, especially to quote dumog93, "it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you". I like that one alot.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-11-01 at 08:45 PM.]

RAYNYSC
05-13-2001, 01:38 AM
I'm no authority on this subject but I'll say this about JKD.... Very few people get it & even fewer understand it.... :D
Now what makes the other definitions wrong?.... I couldn't really answer that one....

As each of us in our own way may see & understand things differently.... :D

It shouldn't be about who's right or who's wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts....

Remember it's the individual that gives life to the style,system or concept of fighting not the other way around....

RAYNYSC

Laine Nakachi
05-21-2001, 08:03 AM
The Jeet Kune Do materials I'm reffering to are the JKD Video,the one the Late Bruce Lee narrarated himself.The video
I've watched many times,mainly because it's interesting.
It gives the whole idea as to how JKD did developed.It contains different
aspect from different martial arts.Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell gives clear explanation about certain JKD techniques in general.And the last but not least,the
man himself,Bruce Lee.Giving his students
personal instructions on JKD.

The JKD book is another material written by the man himself.Including his own theories and concepts of combat.Bruce Lee
was the kind of man that,did his own research as how to improve his own system
of martial arts.Eversince his battle with Wong Jack Man.He was in determination to improve his own martial arts system.

The video you can order it, through I & I
sports.And the book you can buy it at any books store.

Today alot of people had gone in their own way of JKD.And the people who studied with the late Bruce Lee themself had also gone their own way with JKD.To me I think that the real JKD had died with the late Bruce
Lee himself.Unless you negotiate with Dan Inosanto about having him really teaching you what bruce had taught him.But other than that,he's probably going to teach you his way of JKD.

Sil Lum Kuen

Daedalus
05-21-2001, 11:22 PM
I think that Bruce Lee's JKD(Jun Fan Gung Fu) died with him, but the JKD concept is universal.

As for learning the original art from Inosanto,..what would be the point? I think it would be taking a step backwards. JKD is far more advanced now.

DaiKaiju
05-23-2001, 01:21 AM
So raynysc, Explain to me why Rogue years of studing Goju-Ryu and mastering its system to his benefit would not be considered his own version of JKD?
Isn't the main goal of JKD is finding what works for the specific person?
If Rogue found that Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwan Do, or even Shotokan Karate, worked for him and he was comfortable with it, wouldn't that classify as his own personal JKD?
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

RAYNYSC
05-23-2001, 05:28 AM
Hey DaiKaiju,
As far as saying If Rogue or anyone for that matter found that Goju-Ryu,Tae Kwan Do or even Shotokan Karate,worked for him & he was comfortable with it,wouldn't that classify as his own personal JKD?.... I would have to say No it wouldn't!.... But then again if what you're doing works for you. You can call it what ever you want!....
But that still doesn't make it JKD does it?

RAYNYSC

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 05-23-01 at 08:35 PM.]

rogue
05-23-2001, 02:13 PM
Why not?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

S.Teebas
05-23-2001, 04:23 PM
The thing about JKD is.... it's going to die/disapear/vanish..etc...
AS DragonRagez said "If you get the seniors in a room they will agree"

But that seems to be about it. JKD was good in it's day, but it was baised on a system by a man who had exposure to a lot of MA's...all these new JKD instructors arn't bruce lee! I think if you learnt under the man, you would be a pretty good fighter. but lets face it, he's gone and so is his intrepetations, all the great systems evolved over ATLEAST the founders life time. If Bruce live till he was 70 the JKD system would be very different to what you see today. Everyone agrees that he was constantly evolving... bruce may have reached his PHYSICAL peak when he was alive but i highly doubt he reached his mental peak... the level of understanding somone alot older would reach (or an older version of himeself atleast).

It seem that no-one can even agree on what JKD is, and when they do define it, they say the personal expression only applys to themselfes not traditional systems. Whats the go fellas?

4 Ranges
05-23-2001, 04:53 PM
What do you mean by goju-ryu "working for him?" Nureyeve felt that ballet "worked for him." Does that make ballet is his own JKD??? RIDICULOUS!!

JKD isn't about doing what "works for you": it's about what works in REALISTIC COMBAT! A realistic situation occurs in all ranges (weapons range, kicking range, punching, trapping, groundfighting) and mutates from single-opponent to multiple-opponent scenarios. Last I checked, goju-ryu doesn't do extensive groundfighting, extensive trapping, or extensive weapons. In fact, I have yet to see a legitimate goju-ryu practitioner even compete in a mixed-martial arts event! On the other hand, JKD practitioners Erik Paulson, Ron Balicki, and Yori Nakamura have (in fact, Nakamura and Paulson are champions in Japan).

What do goju fighters do to prepare for realistic situations, anyway? Do they train against multiple opponents? Do they train against weapons? Do they do all of this in real time? Or do they concentrate on forms and dry-land swimming?

In fact, we are so focused on realistic combat that, at our particular JKD school, to achieve our very first rank, we have to fight two senior students, simultaneously, in an all-out situation. You get knocked down, they jump you and kick the crap out of you. You get knocked out...you're just knocked out. We've had several students (grown men!!) lose their and cry right there, and leave in the middle of the test!! And that's just the FIRST test. As you move up, it's 3 on 1, 4 on 1, 5 on 1, 2 on 1 with weapons...no-holds barred. No ref to break you up and start you over. No point-sparring. No bowing. Harsh? Yes. Realistic? Absolutely. JKD? Without a doubt.

Goju-ryu is Goju-ryu. If it "works for him" (i.e. he's happy with it), then that's great.

But don't confuse it with JKD.

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

rogue
05-23-2001, 11:18 PM
And what school is this that is so bad assed?

Also I don't really do Goju, I do Isshinryu and TKD.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[This message was edited by rogue on 05-24-01 at 02:41 PM.]

DaiKaiju
05-24-2001, 12:41 AM
First off, Raynysc, your response was the most singular unenlightening response I have ever heard. If I studied Goju-Ryu and saying I took elements from that style only and used it in a realistic situation and won, and won consistantly then why wouldn't this be considered my JKD?
You people have commited the very sin that Bruce Lee himself warned you not to commit, You are all caught up with a name.
It doesn't matter what the technique is, just as long as it works for the individual and not the masses.
I agree with Rogue on this one, and Raynysc, you yourself say you are not a authority on JKD, so wouldn't it be presumpuous of you to say what is JKD and what is not?
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

RAYNYSC
05-24-2001, 06:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I studied Goju-Ryu & saying I took elements from that style only and used it in a realistic situation and won, and won consistantly then why wouldn't this be considered my JKD? [/quote]

Well for starters if you were studying Goju-Ryu & useing only elements from that style how can you call JKD?.... It's Goju-Ryu not JKD.
But then again like I said before! If what you're doing works for you. You can call it whatever you want! But that still doesn't make it JKD does it?


The way I see it....
The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less!....

What exactly is that process?.... Is for the individual to find out for himself....

Who cares where it comes from if you can work it then work it! But don't call it JKD!.... Call it what it is Boxing,Fencing,Wing chun,Judo,Jujitsu,Bjj,Kali,Pentjak Silat,Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwan Do or Shotokan Karate....
Like I said before very few people get & fewer understand it.... The bottom line is it shouldn't be about who is right or wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts! ;)

RAYNYSC

RAYNYSC
05-24-2001, 01:53 PM
It would help to train with someone legit in JKD to try & get a better understanding of what it is or isn't.....

RAYNYSC

rogue
05-24-2001, 02:37 PM
Is Frank Cucci, one of Vu's famous SEAL students, considered legit?

"The bottom line is it shouldn't be about who is right or wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts!"
Correct

"The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process (def. A series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result) of growth no more no less!..."
Then JKD is not about "Reality Fighting"?

"It's Goju-Ryu not JKD".
Right, Ishhinryu is derived from Shorin & Goju styles of karate, but it isn't either of those styles and they're not Isshinryu. So does that mean that Shimabuku was a JKD concepts person? :)

So here's the argument, if a style can not be JKD, then JKD is not a concept(def A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences) but a style, if it's a style it can be defined.

So define it.

It can't be 4Ranges "Reality Combat" definition since there are many so-called Reality based arts around now that aren't JKD (SCARS=JKD? :eek: ).

It's not about ranges since many traditional and MMA also train in various ranges and they're not JKD.

What exactly makes something JKD and something else not JKD?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

4 Ranges
05-24-2001, 06:01 PM
rogue:

are you interested in visiting our school? if you are, drop me a line. rpg30000@aol.com :D

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

Daedalus
05-24-2001, 08:49 PM
Following are some simple guidelines that will speed you on your way to mastering the art of Jeet Kune Do. All you need do is answer a few simple questions and follow a few guidelines.

1. Have you accepted the fact that no-style has an answer/technique/tactic/concept for every possible situation?

2. No-style can be all things to all practicioners.

3. "That which is flexible (adaptable) is always superior to that which is rigid." - Miyamoto Musashii

4. Experience is the best teacher.

If you answered "yes" to question 1 and agree with comments 2,3,&4. Then guess what,..you're a JKD'er. :p

Regardless of what system you practice, deep down you are a JKD practicioner. Its about mindset not technique.

If anyone disagrees with my post, that's great! Based on the writings of Bruce Lee, show me I'm wrong. If you succeed, then we'll both be smarter. :D

DaiKaiju
05-24-2001, 09:29 PM
QUOTE:"Well for starters if you were studying Goju-Ryu & useing only elements from that style how can you call JKD?.... It's Goju-Ryu not JKD."

Why can it not be called JKD? Isn't JKD based on the individual and not the masses and if the elements always worked for one person then logically his JKD is based on Goju.

QUOTE:"But then again like I said before! If what you're doing works for you. You can call it whatever you want! But that still doesn't make it JKD does it?"

If it works for me then it could be classified as JKD

QUOTE:"The way I see it....
The art of Jeet Kune Do is about an individuals own process of growth no more no less!...."

Did you come up with this little jem by yourself or did you read it somewhere, instead of using someone elses thoughts come up with something original.

QUOTE:"What exactly is that process?.... Is for the individual to find out for himself...."

So the person used in the example found out by himself that certain elements in said style worked, thus again it is his own personal JKD.

QUOTE:"Who cares where it comes from if you can work it then work it! But don't call it JKD!.... Call it what it is Boxing,Fencing,Wing chun,Judo,Jujitsu,Bjj,Kali,Pentjak Silat,Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwan Do or Shotokan Karate...."

Then step up and admit that you brain surgeons have made JKD into that which Bruce dispised, a style.

QUOTE:"Like I said before very few people get & fewer understand it.... The bottom line is it shouldn't be about who is right or wrong instead it should be more about what works for you the individual that counts!"

And by reading the brainless circular arguement that you post here in shows that you are one of many who DO NOT understand it.
I love Rogue's last post and agree with it completely.
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

rogue
05-24-2001, 09:54 PM
I agree with you Daedalus. Even among traditional arts people have tweeked them and added to them for centuries. So the concept of JKD has been around for a while.

How many versions of Tai Chi are there? How many styles of Karate or jujitsu. How many southern CMA and northern CMA are there? Someone is always trying to invent the better mouse trap.

PS Are you kempo, JKD(concepts, unlimited or original recipe?) or both?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

rogue
05-24-2001, 09:56 PM
DaiKaiju, we'll straighten out these guys yet. :)

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Daedalus
05-24-2001, 10:38 PM
I consider myself to be undefined. I have formally trained in Isshinryu karate, Chinese kempo, TKD, kickboxing, jujitsu, bagua, and Jun Fan/JKD. And although I have gained much knowledge and many valued skills from each of these styles, I do not hold with any particular one.

What I teach my students; however, is kempo,..with alot of other stuff besides. I guess, what I teach is a mixed martial arts system with kempo as a foundation.

rogue
05-24-2001, 11:52 PM
Sounds like some good stuff D.

For the record, I don't have any problem with JKD, JKD Concepts, JKD Unlimited or whatever variation that's out there, in fact before karate I was a JKD student. But there is a certain kind of JKD student that seem to pop up like weeds that I just love to debate with.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Laine Nakachi
05-25-2001, 08:40 AM
I think that Bruce Lee's JKD
( Jun Fan Gung Fu ) died with him,but JKD concept is universal.

As for learning the original art from inosanto what would be the point? I think it would be taking a step backward.JKD is far more advanced now.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Daedalus,

You do have a right to your opinion.It's true JKD concept is universal,which I agree with you that JKD concept is universal.

Bruce Lee originally taught Dan Inosanto his JKD.And picked Dan to carry on his art.So therefore Dan would know bruce JKD
pretty well.Besides,absorb what is useful,reject what is useless,and add what is specifically your own.JKD was also a blending in of techniques from different styles of martial arts.And including the footwork and stances.This is the point I was trying to make.And it's not really going backward,there are times when in order to go forward.You must reflect on going backward,to see how the art was.

Some JKD teachers today are blending system to system.So therefore they are misguided by how JKD is suppose to be.
I respect JKD alot myself too,but there are other JKD teachers who are making JKD look bad.And ofcoarse,JKD is far more advanced now ,but some JKD teachers don't understand the concepts yet.It's more like Yin / Yang , inorder for us to continue going forward , we must reflect on going backwards.

Then Dan himself had also certified some people to carry on JKD.My good friend was suckered by a want to be JKD teacher.


Take Care,
Sil Lum Kuen

RAYNYSC
05-28-2001, 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You people have committed the very sin that Bruce Lee himself warned you not to commit,you are all caught up with a name. [/quote]

Really the way I see you have some issues there that you may want to address before you start talking all that BS you've poping!.... :eek:


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why can it not be called JKD?
Isn't JKD based on the individual and not the masses and if the elements always worked for one person then logically his JKD is based on Goju [/quote] RIGHT :D if you say so :rolleyes:

The sad part about this? ....Is it seems that it's you who is caught up with the name JKD.... :p

If the system or style that one is using was Goju then thats what it is Goju where the hell did JKD come from? :confused:

At best I would have to say that what you're doing is Goju with the JKD mindset....

But even saying that would be far from the truth as each system/style or way of fighting has it's own mindset & ways of doing things.... :D

The way I see it, its you who needs to step it up there DaiKaiju & call what ever it is that your doing by it's name no more no less :D

If its JKD then Its JKD,if its Goju then its Goju
keep it real.... Cut the Bull....

RAYNYSC

rogue
05-28-2001, 02:37 PM
Fine Ray, then what techniques and philosophy make up JKD?

"If people say that Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or "that", then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it."

Sounds like Lee meant JKD to be inclusive instead of exclusive.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Demi @ CSPT
05-28-2001, 03:34 PM
Absorb what is usefull, reject what is useless and add to experience that which is specifically your own.

- Bruce Lee


So then... JKD is:

Absorb - Reject - Add

This is obviously a never ending process.

Demi Barbito
The CSPT - A Lethal Force Institute
www.DemiBarbito.com (http://www.DemiBarbito.com)

RAYNYSC
05-28-2001, 09:34 PM
I really couldn't say....Why don't you ask your new found partner Daikaiju.... :D

RAYNYSC

DaiKaiju
05-30-2001, 01:47 AM
Raynysc, you could come up with the answer to your own question so you respond with hostility. This show your ignorance in said style. You make a argument and then can't back it up. Why waste your time and everyone elses. Get your facts together before you embarrass yourself again. And here I thought that you knew something about JKD when you acually don't. I admit I have no training in the style but I do not try and speak for it. Hey rogue I think you also hit a sore spot LOL
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

rogue
05-30-2001, 03:46 AM
DaiKaiju, Hee hee hee :D :D :D It is somewhat entertaining.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

DaiKaiju
05-30-2001, 04:11 AM
Yes Rogue it is, You see I have nothing against JKD in any of its forms but I do have a problem with people with a cro-magnon look on Martial Arts. I have been studying Kendo for over 30 years and let me tell you the face of The art has changed badly in the last 15 years or so. You have these people who read a book or go to a so called seminar then they think and act like they know it all. But when you back them in a corner of their own making all you get is hostility and challenges. I wish we were in Feudal Japan so that all these fakes would be weeded out and the true Artists would shine. ;)

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

loki
05-30-2001, 01:37 PM
Hey Ray,

Remember what I told you about an "affinity with swords"?...lol!

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

loki
05-31-2001, 03:29 AM
Mighty quiet around here today..mmmmmmmnnn??? ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

rogue
05-31-2001, 05:05 AM
Shhh, we're looking up stuff in TOJKD.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

RAYNYSC
05-31-2001, 09:01 AM
The next thing you'll be telling me is that your name is Jubei & your partners name is Kagero....

Hey Daikaiju Not for nothing but every now & then people may need a reality check form time to time for them to realize ( for example )
You have as much of a chance of being in Feudal Japan today as I have of bring Bruce Lee back to life!.... :p

By own addmission you have stated that you've studied the traditional art of Kendo for 30 + years.... Really to tell you the truth!.... You sure don't sound like someone who has studied & trained in a traditional art such as Kendo let alone any other traditional art for that matter 30 + years .... :D ( your suspect )

My definition of JKD may not be as clear as I would like, but then again who's is?..... :confused:

Like I said before each of us in our own way may see & understand things differently.... ;)

Remember it can take years for someone to learn how to use there way of fighting.... ( meaning they are a part of it )What most people fail to see is that it takes even longer for someone to make there way of fighting a part of themselves.... ( meaning its a part of them )

There is a difference between the two after all.... :p

RAYNYSC

rogue
05-31-2001, 02:33 PM
That's exactly the way karate is R. The McDojo denizen will learn a bunch of techniques, but if he fails to make karate (or any art) a part of his life, then he'll probably not be able to use it when he needs it. And as you stated that takes a long time to really achieve.

On the same note, you can't let the arts overwhelm your life either.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

DaiKaiju
06-01-2001, 05:38 PM
Again Raynysc, you show your mastery of the nuances of english.
I said 'I WISH WE WERE IN FEUDAL JAPAN' it was a wish not a delusion of reality, and for a gentleman who "SOUNDS" like he has voice in JKD, your the last to judge on my accomplishments.
loki, I do not understand what are you trying to imply. Please elaborate. ;)

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

loki
06-01-2001, 11:11 PM
Hi Daikaiju ( GREAT/BIG MONSTER ).

Forget about what I am trying to imply. Maybe it does not refer to you after all. Allow me to explain. Myself and RAY have been under the impression that you are someone whom we both know and consider to be family. He is also a member of this forum who goes by another handle . We felt that this person was trying to anonomously dis Ray by publicly embarassing him, be it on spite or as a gag. I confronted this person and he swears it is not him. He stated that he was offended and would never do such a thing. At this point I have to believe him and take him for his word. So let me publicly apologize to him for thinking it was you and to you for thinking it was him. :)

Now , on to your ongoing "discussion" with Ray. I know I told you on the other thread that I did not need to stick up for him but I feel , as he is my brother that I have to say a few things. Ray may not be able to explain the definition of JKD to your satisfaction ( even though you yourself say you are not in any way involved with the system )but I can vouch for him in saying that he is involved with it and can take care of himself . I feel this is more important. I've seen many people who can impress you with a well written article or verbally explain theories , techniques , etc. with eloquence but when it comes time to show what they have , they are laughable at best. I can assure you this is not the case with Ray. We are both in our early 30's and we go back to elementary school. We have been involved with the martial arts since our very early teens and have been in "battles" together. I don't mean tournament battles either.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pat either one of us on the back. My point is simply that you cannot judge someone by what they write sometimes. If that were the case I would have to conclude that your 30 years in the art of Kendo have taught you nothing. Why do I say this? Because I would have to think that someone who is your age and has been involved with an art for so many years, an art which from my understanding really stresses humility and respect would not get on a forum to bash someone he does not know about a system he has nothing to do with. I would think this sort of behaviour would be beneath you. But I should not assume that because I do not know you, right? For all I know you may be one bad mother..or you may not be good enough to beat anybody's mother, I don't know. Either way I always try to show respect even when I disagree with someone. If you learn nothing else in your journey through the martial road, you should learn this. Debate is good but only when both sides are respectful toward one another and are willing to admit that they do not know everything and could actually learn something new from the person you are debating. If you don't learn anything then just go about your business and keep doing your thing. There's enough room here for everyone. Maybe you can come up with an interesting topic you would like to discuss? In case you have'nt noticed this particular thread is one of the more popular ones on the JKD forum so Ray did something right, eh?

Well, take this for what it's worth.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER

Gojira
06-02-2001, 01:09 AM
Dear Mr. Giant Monster, I happen to be the other person that Loki, suspected of being you. I would have to agree with Loki and Ray when it comes to their knowlegde. I have grown up with both these men and have "battled" with both also. Now while I'm not at par with either I can assure you that they can take care of themselves. And yes I can say then even thought Ray himself at times may not seen to come across well on the written word, he does know what he is talking about. Now I am far from the most humble guy on this board but I'll say this, you are one of the most arrogant of people I have seen on this board. (Other than a shivering, stuttering, inbred, defective lama I could mention)
Loki was right when he stated that you sir lack the humility of a true martial artist from the age you speak of.
I have read up on iae-do (sp?) and I was always amazed of the humility that all true swordsmen had in the day.
If you do study Kendo and the way of the Samurai is your final goal, well I have to say this.....
You missed.


Bunnies eat radishes, to make babies, thank you. :rolleyes:

DaiKaiju
06-02-2001, 02:54 AM
My dear gojira, it looks like you and loki have taken up for poor old defenseless Raynysc. Loki I can understand, but you? Aren't you the troll who badmouthed Sifu Ross and then when he challenged you, you disappeared like a mongrel dog with his tail between his legs.
I would keep my yap shut if I was you due to the fact you have less crediblity than Raynysc has.
:rolleyes:

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

rogue
06-02-2001, 03:45 AM
Aren't we getting a bit off track? It's a philosophical question that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of JKD, whatever the proper definition of it is. The discussion is supposed to be more fun than something to get worked up over. After all, it's just a name.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

loki
06-02-2001, 05:50 AM
The way I see it, they should just get rid of the name since noone seems to able able to explain it anyway. I think Bruce made reference to this some where did he not?

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Gojira
06-07-2001, 04:08 AM
Sorry I haven't answered quicker, as for my issue with ross, I just went thru a death in my family so that kind of derailed that, but I assure you I will deal with him when time permits.
As for you, you are seem to be a hostile person with a ax to grind. I have never made myself to be any bigger than I am. Unlike quite a few on this board which I'll spare everyone from naming.
And there are quite a few on this board that do not like me either, honestly I couldn't care less. If you want to talk trash, fine I can keep up with the best of them, But I think that barking the way you do is nothing but a waste of time.
Boston huh? hmmmm Delta shuttle right? :eek:

Bunnies eat radishes to make babies, thank you.

RAYNYSC
06-09-2001, 06:33 AM
Since I need to get my facts together as you put it!
Why don't tell me what these facts are?.....

& while your at it maybe you can tell me how you know so much about JKD,when by your own admission you've stated that you have NO TRAINING in said style.... :D

RAYNYSC

dumog93
06-10-2001, 07:54 PM
I caught up on the back and forth discussion and have a few things to add.If we are going to define jkd i think we should also define the goals of martial artists.First off i would define jkd as a system and a concept.The concept is to find a combination of techinques that cover all the ranges.This i think a lot of martial arts are evolving to do.The second part of the jkd mindset is where some arts fail to keep up imho.The second part would be the ability to change gears or your approach so to speak in mid-stream.The ability to flow from a quick,agile boxer to a pounding,punishing,strength type of energy.I'm sure people will argue with that...even jkd specialists.This might be blasphemy too,but i have yet to see the person that is the living embodiment of jkd to me(including Bruce).I would even hazard a guess that he would have told you that himself(it's not that he's great,it's that the rest of us really aren't good at all kind of thing).I think one of the examples he used was perfect in explaining jkd.I can't remember the exact quote,but to paraphrase it was compared to the Chinese language and how the language started simple,then grew too complex and cumbersome eventually being trimmed down to a simpler more streamlined form.I try to do this in my life as much as possible.Jkd is pretty much a way of life for me.I fail in many respects,but my small victories are sweet.
I personally wouldn't call a style jkd,but would rather label it as a hybrid of x,y and z.I wouldn't even say the concept was new.I think people have done it to some degree or another since the dawn of time or we wouldn't have so many styles with many of them having the same root.I guess the things a martial artist should ask himself at the end of the day are:1-what are my goals in training martial arts? 2-how realistic are the techniques i am using(will they work in a full speed event)3-am i training my body to be as balaced as my martial arts(is my body type a hybrid of strength/agility/stamina to a level that will work).That's just my short list.Of course everyone will be stronger in different facets of the total package-stronger,quicker,tougher,more sensitive...but we should all strive to hit some kind of balance.
I think most of us are going for the same goal and arguing over the definitions.When i meet someone that is a martial artist i think of them as just that.Of course i form my own opinions on how well some of the things they use will work,or how well the particular guy can perform,but i try to see it all in the same light.I just think it's silly to get caught up in a vicious argument over the definition of something hardly anyone can agree over.We could argue over something more defineable,like how i think such and such technique is garbage or how i can get my knees to quit thinking they are 50 at age 30.

-Devildog

RAYNYSC
06-11-2001, 02:00 AM
Good post Dumog....

RAYNYSC

VingTsun81
06-11-2001, 02:53 AM
Hey i was just wanting to let you all in on what makes JKD, JKD. JKD is what Bruce Lee decided to call his martial art.he wanted something simple. Jeet Kune Do means "The way of the intercepting fist". Its major ideas was to not have a style at all. Styles confind a person and he wanted everyone to be formless so that they could assume all forms. So Jeet Kune Do is Jeet Kune Do, there is no other art that can be JKD, it is simply Bruce Lee's "style" of fighting.
I hope i made it clear enough but if anyone has any questions just e mail me or post it.
"The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify."

RAYNYSC
06-20-2001, 05:13 AM
Hey Daikaiju,
So what exactly were those facts again that I needed to get together?.....

RAYNYSC

DaiKaiju
06-27-2001, 05:31 AM
The fact that you have no conception of what you speak on. Time to give it up, what are you a book/video martial artist, who has never studied under a true master? Time to pay the piper.LOL

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

RAYNYSC
06-28-2001, 08:47 AM
I'm still waiting for you to tell me the exact facts that I need to get together.... :rolleyes:

By the way in case you forgot you still haven't answered my other question as to how you know so much about JKD when you have no training in said stlye?.... :eek:

I know why you haven't answered!.... It's because your full of it & as for saying that you've been studying the Martial Arts for 30 years go's Please! give it up.... :rolleyes:

Anyone who has spent 30 years of there life to the study of The Martial Arts should have more respect for it.... :D
Since it seems like you have no respect for The Martial Arts....

I would have to say that it looks to me like your the one who has never studied under a True Master as you put.... & even if you did I'm more then sure now that your so called 30 year of training is all in your head.....LOL

But then again maybe you got hit over the head one to many times with a kendo stick.... :mad:

RAYNYSC

rogue
06-29-2001, 06:44 AM
Ray, did you catch Demis article in BB? Pretty good.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

DaiKaiju
06-30-2001, 12:43 AM
Ahhh my poor Raynysc, again you show how bright you are.
After this post I am done with you.
My point at the beginning of this thread was JKD was a personal expression of one's fighting ability, regardless of one background in martial arts, may it be in Judo, Kendo, Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, etc...
Now I say this from reading up on what BL stated about what JKD was.
Rogue, brought up a excellent point saying that a man/woman who only studied karate and if it worked for them, this would be construed as JKD.
You then blunder in saying no, then spewing some psycobabble that this couldn't be so, that JKD was about simplifying.
I came back and said if I studied a style of karate, took out just what worked for me, it would be my own JKD, You said no, but did not give a intelligent and valid reason to why not. I have also noticed that many of your posts on this forum are much of the same, you either agree with someone elses thought yet do not come up with any original thought of your own. I ponder this quandry. Then you have people (friends I suppose) either question my background, or outright insult me. I wasn't the vague one here, you were. All you do here is quote, nothing else, thus showing me that you are like the old adage: Monkey see, Monkey do, but Monkey no think. :eek: :rolleyes:
Then you attack me one my knowledge of JKD but I WASN'T THE ONE WHO STARTED THE BLOODY THREAD!!
So instead of character attacks, speak like you know, and if you don't....then silence can save one a lot of chagrin later on.
I'm done with this.

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

rogue
06-30-2001, 01:40 AM
I agree with you DaiKaiju, but then you're not a part of the JKD club. There are things in the minds of some JKD students that will never be changed, example TKD kicks bad, Savate kicks good. Why? I don't really know. I would say go and try a JKD school to get a feel for the art, but first read this months Black Belt and the article on JKD by Demi Barbito(sp? sorry Demi). He addresses some of the issues brought up here about JKD.

Try the main forum which is much more open to topics of debate. You'll get disagreed with there but it's a friendlier bunch.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

RAYNYSC
06-30-2001, 08:22 AM
Hey Rogue,
Demi Bardito's article was a really good one.....

RAYNYSC

loki
06-30-2001, 08:24 AM
Why would anyone want to call what they do, be it Karate, Aikido Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Boxing, etc., JKD? Just call it what it is. JKD means " Way of the Intercepting Fist" . It was a principle for Bruce, a theory which he adopted from the Wing Chun system. Bascically, Bruce wanted to teach that you should hit your opponent at the very moment when he begins to attack you. In other words, allow the the opponent to make the first move thus he commits himself then you "beat him to the punch" as they say. To put it in simpler terms it is called the "stop hit". Like I said this was borrowed from the Wing Chun system...although this principle is not exclusive to said system . The point being that's what JKD was but it is not what JKD is today. It was not a style then because it was based on a principle. It was a principle from a style yes but what Bruce was trying to do was to utilize this principle with techniques from other systems, not only Wing Chun. So what he was doing was taking a principle which is not a system and making it apply to all the systems that he came into contact with. What many people fail to realize is that every system that exists has started with a set of principles so it was not a style at first and through time it evolved into a system with it's own principles, theories, techniques, structure, etc. and JKD has been no exception. JKD is a style plain and simple. What makes JKD JKD? What you practise has to have come down from Bruce himself, down to Inosanto and all of Bruce's other students and down to their students to you. If what you are doing did not come down through this line in any way then what you are doing is not JKD. Personally, I feel that JKD is a system which is lacking. That is not to say that Inosanto is lacking as I feel that this man is a great martial artist but that JKD without Dan's personal touch ie. Filipino ma's etc. , is not much of a martial art. JKD has survived this long because Inosanto has kept it alive through his own personal arts, but those arts are not JKD, they are what they are. Regardless, JKD has become an art which has many different other arts in it's curriculum and it is today a style. If it's practitioners could see this alot of this debate would not exist.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

RAYNYSC
07-02-2001, 08:22 AM
Hey Daikaiju


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"My point at the beginning of this thread was JKD was a personal expression of one's fighting ability,reguardless of one's backround in martial arts,may it be in Judo,Kendo,Karate,KungFu,etc"...
Now I say this from reading up on what BL stated about what JKD was."[/quote]


So I take that you know that Bruce Lee trained & or exchanged ideas with some of the best Judo,Karate,KungFu,Grappling men of his time people like.

1) Wally Jay-Judo
2) Jhoon Rhee-Tae Kwon Do
3) Chuck Norris-Tang Soo Do
4) Joe Lewis-Karate
5) Mike Stone-Karate
6) Gene Lebell-Grappling
7) Ed Parker-Kenpo
Not to mention Yip Man his Sifu in Wing Chun as well as his Si-hings like Hawkins Chung & William Chung just to name a few....

Did it ever cross your mind as to why Bruce Lee may have trained & or exchanged theories,principles & concepts of fighting with these people?....
Especially since all of the mentioned where at the top of there fighting or Teaching Game when Bruce Lee was around.....

So tell me why was that if you can?....
I'll tell you why At least the way I see it & maybe if you get your head out of your ass long enough you just might understand what I'm trying saying in sted of talking all that BS you've been talking..... :D

One of the reasons I feel that Bruce Lee trained so much was because he realized that no one system had all the answers..... (Be it Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Grappling, or Boxing)But he realized each of these systems in there own way Share something (like flow) at one point or an other weather you see it or not it's up to you!.... ;)
It all comes down on how you train & drill what you do..... Like I said before if what you do works for you then you can call it what ever you want.... :D But that doesn't make it Jeet Kune Do now does it? It sounds to me like you need to do some more reading if you believe that it does as I'm more then sure that any of the masters that have been mentioned would tell you what there doing is not Jeet Kune Do it's a form of Karate,Judo,KungFu,Grappling now why is that?....
Well I don't know about you but if I was training in KungFu,Karate,Judo or Grappling then I would say thats what it was,why say it's something else when it's not?.... :confused:

What you need to understand is that BL knew that each system has someting to offer at some point the key here was learning to take advantage & make the most of the opportunity when made or given to you! No more no less....

This to me is what Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do is about,now as for Jun Fan?.... Jun Fan is about the basics that he felt that one should have before one can begin to understand what JKD is or isn't!....

Jun Fan trains one in learning the difference in the ranges of fighting like kicking range,Boxing Range as well as Grappling range....
Which in turn gives you the individual an all around base to start from.... (Meaning it doesn't matter what you're using reguardless of the system, what matters here is that you the individual understands that the art of Jeet Kune Do is about transcendence in short it's about the individual no longer doing it but the individual being it!....)

So you see Before you can go around saying that what you're doing is Jeet Kune Do you need to learn what Jan Fan is & I'm not just talking about reading about it!....

But training it with someone who knows it!..... :p

RAYNYSC

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 07-02-01 at 11:31 PM.]

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 07-02-01 at 11:36 PM.]

rogue
07-02-2001, 06:11 PM
Ray you're losing me. So one needs to specifically take Jun Fan to take JKD?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

RAYNYSC
07-03-2001, 03:10 AM
I believe it would help Rogue,
You may or may not agree with this & thats fine....

All I'm saying is that there are alot of people out there who say that they know Karate,Kung Fu,Boxing,Grappling or what ever it is they call what there doing....
That doesn't make it JKD after all JKD in its own way has a set of principles as well as theories & concepts that come from Jun Fan.....

So how can one say that what there doing is JKD when they don't know what Jun Fan is?....

In short all I'm saying is that before anyone can say that they understand JKD they should at least have some type of training in Jun Fan Regardless of your martial arts backround....

RAYNYSC

rogue
07-03-2001, 06:30 AM
So at what point does Jun Fan turn into JKD? :confused:


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

RAYNYSC
07-04-2001, 04:48 AM
I believe thats where individual prefrence comes in.... :D

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 07-04-01 at 07:53 PM.]

rogue
07-04-2001, 05:08 AM
I'm really interested Ray, when did your JF turn into JDK? And what preferences did you have?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

RAYNYSC
07-07-2001, 12:24 AM
Hey Rogue,
I never said nor am I an authority on JKD...I just give input from my own personal experience and what I've read.

Question: When did my JF turn into JKD & what are my preferences?...

Answer: My personal opinion is that JKD is supposed to be about the individual learning what works for him.... ;)

As well as having some type of understanding as to what Jeet Kune Do is about. A good place to start is to learn Jun Fan as it's Jeet Kune Do's core/base....

Now as far as preferences are concerned all I say is this: modify,modify,modify. After all JKD is about what works for you the individual....

What may work for you may not work for me but that doesn't make what I'm doing less effective especailly if we are using the same concept,system or style.....

As all that would mean is that either you or me have found how to use what we're doing differently yet effectively to our own indiviuality.... :D

RAYNYSC

lotusleaf
07-23-2001, 11:40 PM
I think what makes jkd different is that it has taken a lot of the other styles and forms and techniques and it has stripped them to their bare essentials. It is like a chameleon. It adapts to its environment by changing colors. Jkd adapts by gathering roots from other MA's and using them to bring down the opponent.

I think it's a way of thinking that Bruce Lee just put a name to. He has personalized his own fighting style from wing chun, western boxing and footwork of fencing, plus throws from judo, grappling, shoot fighting. I think it is trying to tell people that Jkd is a personalized art designed for your body and yours alone. For example: If you take karate, you can make that your own art. You can take away the useless static stances and incorporate a better fighting stance from boxing or other martial arts, you can take away that block then strike mentality and practice so that you can block/strike at the same time. Incorporate some boxing punches or strikes from other martial arts.

The thing is just gather ideas and knowledge from your research and develop them one by one. If you learned a new throw, then develop that until it's perfect and you can incorporate that into your "tools".

It's basically a way of thinking that jkd is what you make it to be.

popsider
07-30-2001, 12:41 PM
JKD seems to be anything that its instructors say it is. The core of it is based on what Bruce Lee and his early students were interested in training, and to that has been added what the better known practitioners of today have wanted to add.

In other words if it is anything it is a belief in cross training techniques from different martial arts to create a blend that suits the individual.

Bruce Lee was primarily a martial arts film star. He was a very talented martial artist but was too young and had trained for an insufficient time to really create his own art with an underlying set of principles. Perhaps his charisma and the personality he projected on screen obscures the fact that there were many people better qualified than him to start developing fighting styles. I think the fact that JKD has diversified so far and so fast proves the point that it does not really have the depth of a traditional system.

harley
08-14-2001, 08:58 AM
not that you need any help Ray, i just thought i would actually say something this time instead of just watching for your respones.
JKD is complicated. let's start with Lee Jun Fan Gung fu.
the actual physical techniques Sijo Lee taught are from the style Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu. it has techniques, rank, and a structure to be followed. this system contains elements of wing chun and other systems you guys have already memorized the names of.
JKD is the highest level of martial arts, where "you" are NO LONGER BOUND BY PERSONAL LIMITAITONS. limitations of style, fear or personal prejudice. Sijo Lee used to say that a song was JKD, or that a meal was JKD. remember it was the 60's and early 70's. his philosophical method of teaching was "HIP" at the time.
As far as by-passing LEE JUN FAN and combining other systems to create JKD, well it's not possible. here's why. Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu containes all the necessary physical examples of the concepts contained in Jeet Kune Do! Without Jun Fan you will have no examples of how to intercept or how to trap. Yes there is structure in Jun Fan, because structure creates ecomomy of motion, speed and power, maximum effectiveness etc. Next you have to add the human element, if you add BJJ, KARATE, JUDO AND KEMPO, you might end up with a well rounded system but, JKD is Sijo Bruce Lee's personal expression on combat. His road. it just so happens he helped others down the same road of personal expression by teaching and leaving us both Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do Concepts.
So all that being said, Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu is a style, Jeet Kune Do is more than a style but a guided path toward personal freedom in combat, using concepts to explore the world of martial arts. Jeet kune Do can be taught, but it can never be standardized.
I hope this helps, i realize that JKD is complicated and difficult to comprehend from the outside, my suggestion is study under Guro Inosanto or a qualified Instuctor and begin the journey for yourself.
Harley

RAYNYSC
08-15-2001, 01:30 AM
Thank you Sifu Harley, it's always an honor & privilege to have your input.
All the best to you & the Warriors Way Academy!....

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

harley
08-15-2001, 09:47 AM
Good to see you agian ray. it was a pleasure having you down at the Sifu Francis Fong seminar. I hope you enjoyed working with him. I'm sorry I didn't get to spend more time training you personally but as you know I was tied up with Sifu Fong.
As for your discussions on the forum here, I think that as long as people keep things in a positive light, with true intentions of learning and growing alot can be learned, from questions raised and answers researched. Keep up the good work and I look forward to working with you again soon. Harley

Wongsifu
08-26-2001, 12:25 AM
hi guys sorry to but in like this just found the post and thought id add my 2 cents.

Now im sure you all know im a notorious bruce lee ..... erm disliker. but heres my 2 cents.

The reason i really disklike jkd is beecause nobody knew what it was, its because it didnt really exist as such but every idiot tries to make 2 bucks out of it and nooooooneeee of them are accomplished martial ARTISTS notice the word artists.


look at this ok.

Bruce lee had a training schedule and he wanted to practise what was effective so he says, different ranges, different attacks, we need that, power and speed we need that, different intensity, wee need that.
So he took what worked for him and he practised it. He liked it so he named it JKD jun fan whatever.
Now years after this he starts to realise hey wait a minute we dont need to be set by strict forms, we just need to react, lets practise this, so he said we have to be formless.

THis is what every single martial art which is good has in it from tai chi to karate.

the thing is once you reach a high level it becomes formless on its own because you react with whatever the body suits you.

This is why i hate it when people say stupidities liek jkd is not a style jkd is a concept.
what a load of carp jkd is a style, in it you learn kicks punches and things which are definite like sraight blast or funny football side kick. This makes it a style.

By your definition jkd is what someone does the first time he gets into a little rough and tumble in the school yard .

If it wasnt a style every jkd instructor wouldnt stand just like bruce did and say... now stand naturally its not a stance stand however you want.
AND THEN turn around and say,,, erm but bend your knees if someone kicks you hard they could break.

All jkd is.. is bruce lees training regimen for the first mixed martial art.

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

curtis
09-20-2001, 11:31 AM
J.K.D. is dead!
The art died with Bruce Lee. His concepts and principles survive of course,
but most people do not know how to use them. (You say "BUT" he taught many
people his art, before he died.) The people who know J. K. D cannot or will
not teach it, for it is personal to them. Let me put it this way. In order
to make a technique work, you need (let us say) four elements: A, B, C and
D. Any problems yet? But because of your nature, background, and or
individual liking you do A&B naturally. Bruce would teach you're missing C
& D. (And BOOM, you can do it!) The only problem is, you cannot teach it,
since you are not aware of all the parts (A&B is part of you! But C&D is
what was taught) And You can only show others what you know. Some people
can learn, but most cannot. You must have a solid background, In order to
build a good base to build from. Without that base there will always be
gaps in your learning (no matter how hard you try.)
All too many people can read and recite principles that Bruce Lee taught,
but all too many do not know what they mean. What they think they know,
they don't. and they don't known that THEY DONT KNOW.
Let me restate that. The proof is in the pudding. Can you make it work, As
naturally or as efficiently, has Bruce Lee did? If not, you do not know the
technique.
BUT there is hope!
For those who want to learn Bruce's art. There are a number of original
students left, who can teach what they know. Jesse Glover (Bruce's first
student) and James DeMile are two people that come to mind. (There are a
few others.) They do not teach Jeet Kune Do but do teach what Bruce did
(Bruce's fighting art). I suggest if you want to learn, do your homework.
There are many good teachers in many good arts to learn from; but there are
very few people to teach you what Bruce Lee did. There is nothing wrong
with doing your own thing. But there is something wrong with someone who
teaches you incorrectly, be careful my friends, don't be taken by a fraud.
Find out more about J. K. D. before you start.
Sincerely yours, C.A.G.

Daedalus
09-23-2001, 10:22 PM
Out of all of the posts that have appeared on this JKD forum, and still we are arguing about whether or not the art died with Bruce Lee.

By todays standards, Jeet Kune Do can be termed another way. A way which de-mystifies the whole mystery that is JKD.

Here it is,...are you ready?

Jeet Kune Do = Cross training with the goal of improving one's fighting skills.

Everyone who is a self-defense minded martial artist does it. Mystery solved.

"The greatest secret of the martial arts is that there is no secret." - author unknown (possibly Ed Parker) :D

taba
09-23-2001, 10:25 PM
why cannot make distinction between concept jkd (continuous change and adaptation, attributes over technique, range, flow) and style jkd (technique)?

a style jkd could fail to conform to concept jkd if resists change (kali integration).

likewise, mixed martial arts not considered concept jkd if fail to flow. but could, if did.

(do appreciate style jkd not eclectic.)

harley: my impression is that cross-training muay thai/bjj against progressive resistance about as concept jkd as can be. not so?

raynysc: jun fan may/may not be a better style, but why would necessarily lead to a better understanding of concept jkd? assuming are referring to isanto/pfs/jkdu/straightblast style jkd and not ‘traditional’ jun fan.

RAYNYSC
09-24-2001, 04:18 AM
Hey Taba,
No offense but I don't understand what in the blue blazes you're talking about.... :D
You mind running that by me agian.

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

taba
09-25-2001, 02:49 AM
sorry ray,

let me ask you - if said practiced jkd, would you not wish to know if was either

a) a film fan who practiced jun fan forms before mirror?

or

b) a mt/bjj athlete?

that the distinction see between jkd style and concept.

RAYNYSC
09-27-2001, 05:22 AM
Hey Taba,
The way I see it if you're a film fan who practice's Jun Fan Forms in front of a mirror as you put it.... I would have to say that at best all you would be doing is mimicking what you've seen on film....

I don't know about you?.... But I wouldn't exactly call that Jun Fan, but hey thats just me....

Now as for being a Muay Thai/BJJ athlete go's that means nothing as well as that doesn't make it Jun Fan now does it, but hey thats just me....

Just for the record I would be more interested in knowing who have you trained with or under as well as how long have you trained in said system/stlye/concept of fighting?....

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

taba
09-27-2001, 09:23 AM
hey ray,

sorry not doing v good job explaining point.

would not agree that film fan is certainly not doing concept jkd?

would contend that mt/bjj is.

was really trying to understand why you believed practicing jun fan tech was somehow more in alignment with concept jkd than any other mma.

assume related to how believe jun fan becomes jkd?

would not any comprehensive art practiced with jkd concepts lead to same jkd state-of-grace?

thanks for patience.

curtis
09-27-2001, 11:20 AM
Jeet Kune Do/ jun fun gungfu

I am not too sure you'll like to hear the definition I was taught.
After Bruce Lee develops is fighting techniques, and he felt comfortable about fighting he decided to teach what he had developed to make money. He called the jun fun (his Cantonese name, jun fun Lee)
what Bruce did was to teach his fighting concepts. (Not Jeet Kune Do) jun fun gungfu is more a refined wing chun base fighting style. He kept the best of wing chun and modified it adding elements from other arts, as well as other scientific approaches, to look at and develop his fighting techniques.

Now where does Jeet Kune Do fit in?
Again time. Later when Bruce Lee got into movies (his Hollywood period.) he decided to change, to fit the new society he was in. (The flashy stuff everybody wanted to see, mixed in with his fighting concepts. )
Later after Bruce Lee death Jeet Kune Do took on a life of its own.
Years after the Jeet Kune Do people realize there was something missing, and decided to look back at what Bruce Lee was doing and early years. Since both jun fun/Jeet Kune Do were Bruce Lees arts, they merged and became one art...
Now/ today it is very difficult to figure out where one begins in the other ends.
My suggestion if you want to know more. Ask an expert Howard Williams comes to mind. He studied and was taught by Bruce Lee. He never trained in anything but jun fun gungfu, I am sure he can give you all proper responses to your questions.
Sincerely C.A.G.

RAYNYSC
09-30-2001, 03:12 AM
Taba,

Jun Fan is the base/core of jeet kune do. In jun fan one learn's the basic training methods,strategies,techniques etc.

In other words the concepts & principles in jun fan are the same ones that you will find in jeet kune do be it jun fan/jeet kune do or jeet kune do concepts....

Think about it how can someone say that they know jeet kune do without ever learning jun fan which by the way is also known as original jeet kune do.... :D


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

taba
10-01-2001, 12:19 AM
ray,

see you do 7*mantis and "jkd concepts".

mean you practice 2 styles - 7* and jun fan?

or pracice 7* with jkd concepts?


if simply reflects sequential order - could you not now return to 7* and practice with jkd concepts? or there something in 7* that precludes?

believe can apply jkd concepts outside the martial arts? adaptability, awareness, etc?

taba
10-01-2001, 12:31 AM
really asking this - am I unable to understand jkd concepts from research (tojkd, inosanto's jkd: art and philosophy of lee, vunak's jkd: concept and philosophies, and related - ed parker, bob orlando, mma lessons, etc)? what special about jun fan?

RAYNYSC
10-01-2001, 03:55 AM
Hey Taba,
I train both when I can reguardless....
Just for the record a big part of the Martial Arts that's over looked most of the time is the learning how to apply it's concepts,principles & so on to everyday life....


A fighter will block where amaster will attack

RAYNYSC

RAYNYSC
10-01-2001, 04:33 AM
To tell you the truth nothing is & I might add that this go's for all the other systems as well!....
Everyone out there that you meet now a days say's that there system is better then someone else's another system give me a brake already with that bull!.... :D
The bottom line here is you're only going to get out what you put in no more no less....

Thats why when it come's down to the martial arts
its not just about the system as one would have you think, It's about the indivdual who is training in said system that counts....


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

curtis
10-01-2001, 10:59 AM
If you believe that the individual is the only important part of the martial art's you couldn't be further from the truth. Even SunTza stated. The truth in combat, is different for each individual.
How can you experience the truth, with out experiencing what the other person knows. (To really know a man, you must first walk-in his shoes.)
JKD concepts are too vast for a lot of people. (Do your own thing) but jun fan gungfu isn't Jeet Kune Do. If you do not understand the concepts that make it work. How can you judge it?
With out understanding the centerline principal, how can you use?
With out knowing what is the immovable elbow concept, or how to use the single unit movement , AND not to mention what are parameters? You cannot begin to understand.

If you choose to be like water, (as Bruce stated) you must realize, even water if held in your cup too long will stagnant, let water be free in order to flow.
Just my humble advice.
C.A.G.

gungfuguy
10-01-2001, 06:14 PM
just a couple thoughts...

Jun Fan and JKD are NOT the same. Jun Fan is based on Wing Chun and HAS a foundation. JKD is formless and shapeless like water in a cup...it forms to the cup. The problem is, you're trying to fill a strainer. All those holes will become a problem for you. What is your purpose for learning MA? Bruce's reason was to become a good fighter (the best actually). IF that is the case you have to evaluate yourself in those terms without prejudice and bias. Are you really effective...or is it fantasy??

Some systems are quite effective as a combat art. Others are more a way of life. Some are just beautiful to watch in motion. Which are you involved in? Is that where you want to be?

To say that any art is effective if you devote yourself to it is a naive comment. If you completely dedicate yourself to Tai Chi, you will have gained quite a bit of benefit, but are you an effective fighter? Again what is your purpose? You have to dedicate yourself to something that will meet your goals.

Just my thoughts.

Good Luck.

<font color="royal blue" size="5" face="Comic Sans MS"><marquee direction="left">GungFuGuy</marquee></font>

RAYNYSC
10-03-2001, 05:17 AM
When asked about what is "original" jeet kune do & how does it differ from jeet kune do "concepts"....

Guro/Sifu Dan Inosanto who is one of only three people in the world who was hand picked by Bruce Lee himself to teach the art of jkd....

Answered:
Actually,there is no dfference between original jeet kune do & jeet kune do concepts because,to practice the concepts of jeet kune do, one has to know the original jeet kune do material, which is called Jun Fan kung fu. I use the term jeet kune do concepts to emphasize that jeet kune do is a concept. Jeet kune do was Bruce's personal research & development in what worked for him in combat.Can you teach jeet kune do? I have always said "Yes." Can you standardize jeet kune do? I say "No." Because in Bruce's own words, "Jeet kune do is finding the cause of your own ignorance. Jeet kune do favors the formless. Jeet kune do utilizes all ways & is bound by none." Since each individual is different,he must find the cause of his own ignorance & must utilize all the ways that personally fit him.

So original jeet kune do is really Jun Fan kung fu, the material that was handed down by Bruce when he was alive. Jun Fan kung fu can be taught & is standardized so that students can learn it easily. Jun fan kung fu provides the basic training methods,techniques,strategies,principles & concepts for combat & self-defense. Jun Fan kung fu basics prepare you for your own personal way of combat.

Look's to me like it's the two of you who are off base here but then again maybe it's just me....


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

Spectre
10-03-2001, 01:39 PM
I was recently reading some article on Hawkins Cheung's website regarding Bruce, Wing Chun, and Jeet Kune Do. Hawkins is a Wing Chun practitioner but quite a bit of what he writes regarding Jeet Kune Do is right on.

Give it a read and let me know what you think.

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

gungfuguy
10-03-2001, 06:32 PM
The main point I am trying to get at is this: in your previous posts you say more or less that those who know JKD must have already learned Jun Fan, and that the system is meaningless anyway and that the most important thing is how much effort you put into it.

Jun Fan and JKD aren't the same. Maybe they should be...according to your quote of Dan Inosanto, he says, they SHOULD be the same. He says that you need to learn Jun Fan in order to comprehend JKD concepts. I agree with this. This however, doesn't necessarily mean that is what all JKD instructors are teaching, or what the students are doing.

I respectfully disagree with what you have stated. I agree that JKD students SHOULD learn Jun Fan, but I haven't seen much evidence of that being true. What should be, and what IS, are two different things. It is my understanding that Sifu Dan has distanced himself from JKD because there are so many people who are not following Bruce's foundation...they do their own thing and call it Bruce's art, but giving it that name doesn't make it so.

Jun Fan is one of Bruce’s foundations. JKD is his concept that techniques and styles will dissolve in your highest evolution of martial arts, regardless of the system.

JKD cannot be taught. It must be learned. (And they are not the same thing.)

<font color="royal blue" size="5" face="Comic Sans MS"><marquee direction="left">GungFuGuy</marquee></font>

gungfuguy
10-03-2001, 06:45 PM
RAYNYSC, I enjoy your difference of opinions. Ultimately we may read the same material, we may learn from the same master and it would be possible that we would never agree that what we have learned was the same thing.

Also just a note...when I say that JKD cannot be taught I refer to JKD as the ultimate evolution of a person where he no longer has regard for technique or style, but his actions just become an expression of himself. This is what Bruce said many times. That can be learned...a master can help me reach that development...but he cannot teach it, for it is a different path for each individual.

Take care.

<font color="royal blue" size="5" face="Comic Sans MS"><marquee direction="left">GungFuGuy</marquee></font>

RAYNYSC
10-04-2001, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"The main point I am trying to get at is this:In your previous posts you say more or less that those who know jkd must have already learned jun fan, and that the system is meaningless anyway and that the most important thing is how much effort you put into it." [/quote]

Hey Gungfuguy,
Not for nothing but it seems to me that you've missed understood what I've been saying....
First of all I never said that those who say they know jeet kune do must have already learnded jun fan now did I?....
What I said was if someone is going to say that what they're doing/teaching is jeet kune do then they should at least have some type of training in jun fan before they can say that they have any idea as to what jun fan/jeet kune do is or isn't not to mention what jeet kune do concepts is or isn't!.... if they can't then I guess what they're doing isn't jeet kune do at all....

But hey thats just my opinion on this topic.... :D

I'll just say this if you're going to say that you know jeet kune do then you should have some type of training in jun fan as it's the base/core of jeet kune do Reguardless of how you may see it.
(Be it Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do or Jeet Kune Do Concepts)

Now as far as jkd being at it's ultimate part of it's evolution as you put it more or less right.... :confused:


I would have to say that the ultimate goal for any jeet kune do man is to learn about the transcendence of jkd
meaning that the individual is no longer doing it, he is it....

Like I said before you are only going to get out of it what you put into it!.... in other words you can't expect to learn or retain anything worth learning without training it now can you :rolleyes: ( Just something to think about )

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 10-04-01 at 09:39 PM.]

curtis
10-04-2001, 11:14 AM
Ray
the history stands. (You have done a nice job of back tracking) I to understood you to say" Jeet Kune Do/jun fan are the same thing. With that statement you started the whole thing off.
I will agree they do have the same roots, and many of the same concepts, BUT they are different .
If you can agree that. There will be no argument.


Howard Williams is the leader of junfan movement, and if I understand him right, he will try to take over Jeet Kune Do as system, and try to put it back contract.


(As gungfu guy stated) what is, and what should be, are not the same thing.

Gungfu guy. You have done a great job with your commentary. I almost felt off my seat. Laughing at your version of water taking shape.

Thank you Ray and Gungfu guy.
Sincerely C.A.G.

Cyborg
10-04-2001, 10:16 PM
I think that cross training is well worth while. However, I wouldn't call that JKD. My short definition would be "that which is most efficient at getting the job done." Add techniques all that you want but it won't make you more a better fighter.

Any body wanna spar?

azwingchun
10-04-2001, 10:35 PM
I am not writing this to stir things up, because I know that JKD seems to be a touchy situation with some, and further more I don't study JKD. Though I once read an article online by one on Bruce's Kung Fu brothers (correct me if I am wrong), but I think it may have been Hawkins Cheung. He stated that Bruce fooled everyone (not in so many words, it was implied), he said that Bruce had 3 types of Kung Fu, and that was 1) the style we saw in movies 2) the style he taught to students and did demonstartions with 3) the way he actually fought in the streets (which was pure Wing Chun). Again this isnt to stir anything that was a quote. It also stated that the reason for this was to honor the old traditions of not giving outsiders the secrets of Kung Fu. I don't know if this was true since I nver knew Bruce personally, though it was a pretty interesting story.

Cyborg
10-05-2001, 02:06 AM
Interesting. I seem to remember Bruce saying that he had 3 styles but they were different than that. 1 - Movie style, 2 - sparring and demo, 3- streetfighting. In a streetfight he could use the straight lead and simply eye gouge. I disagree with the statement about protecting WC's secrets, after all, wasn't that what his fight with Wong Jackman was all about? And remember he was continually revising his method and changing. I was in Karate years ago and thought "yeah, this is the best", then I got exposed to other styles, sparred some and revised, to put it mildly.
In any case thanks for the info.

Any body wanna spar?

azwingchun
10-05-2001, 02:52 AM
Actually, as far as the fight with Wong Jackman goes, I guess it depends on what story you read or are told. I remember hearing a story by some people who were involved in this, and if memory serves me correctly, even Wong Jackman stated that the challenge had nothing to do with protecting tradition. It was said that it was because Bruce was making statements of being the best and offering challenges. Though I am very familiar with the story you tell, it seems to be the one that has gone down in history. Though it is hard to tell, again I wasn't there. Great example of changed history, watch the Bruce Lee story which Linda Lee (widow of Bruce) had great influence over the movie.

curtis
10-05-2001, 03:29 PM
It should have been called the Linda Lee story,(the girl in that movie was HOT!!!and I am sorry to say the movie was NOT!!!!) thay had a chance to tell the world the real story, and realy blew it!
that movie could have realy helped to promote the M/A's much like Bruce did 30yrs ago.
Why dose HollyWood rune all M/A flicks?

C.A.G.

Daedalus
10-07-2001, 03:38 PM
Maybe "cross training" is not really the best term to use. How about "unbiased training" towards the end of being a better fighter.

Yeah, that sounds better.

It should come as no surprise that Bruce Lee's streetfighting looked alot like wing chun. That was his base art upon which his JKD was founded. And wing chun alone is a formidable fighting system. If that's what works, use it! That's JKD.
:)

Spectre
10-08-2001, 01:38 PM
Jeet Kune Do is about taking your system and trimming away what is ineffective and keeping only that which is useful to you. The key being - what is useful to YOU - not anyone else.

In any style, no one is equally proficient at every technique. Some techniques may not be effective due to an individual's stature, build, physical limitations, etc.. So you strip what is not useful to you and keep only that which makes you truly effective.

JKD is NOT about adding more on top of many techniques to give you more options. Think 'Jack of all trades - Master of none'.

Keep it simple, efficient, and practical.

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

apoweyn
10-08-2001, 03:09 PM
Well, I think we've safely ruled out the mystery being solved. :)

shaolinboxer
10-08-2001, 04:07 PM
OK, everybody knows JKD is the way of the intercepting fist.

So, I wonder why, when attempting to define JKD, no one includes this basic fundamental concept of interecepting in their evaluation......all technique compliments tha ability to intercept the intent of the opponent.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

Daedalus
10-08-2001, 06:49 PM
This is just my opinion, but I think that the concept of intercepting may have been one of those things that worked for Bruce that don't necessarily work for everyone else.

Jeet Kune Do has become something different. Better or worse? Who's to say?

Good point though. Is it right to still call it JKD if there are no intercepting skills in your art? :confused:

curtis
10-09-2001, 11:02 AM
Lyle great question.
I believe it's more question of what is intercepting. If you train to perceive motion (to watch and see a person how they build up for strike.) And then move when or before they actually begin . That could be one definition.
I see it more as traping.
You go for the strike. If the secondary intercepts your strike, you flow away from the block and trapp the opponent arms. Then you hit him.
But it could also be the shutting down of striking lines. (Which is also are traping.)
If you draw an imaginary line from the opponent's hand to your face. And then use your hand (or fist) to intercept that line, you also effectively trapped the opponent ability to strike. ( Is this what you mean? " On intercepting"?) C.A.G.

RAYNYSC
10-14-2001, 07:10 AM
What make's Jun Fan so different from Jeet Kune Do Concepts?.... If they both have the same roots not to mention share many of the same concepts....

Like I said before It all comes down to individual prefrence regaurdless of how you may see it be it Jun Fan or Jeet Kune Do Concepts....

As they are both expressions of what we have come to know as Jeet Kune Do....
Think about it there are those out there who define Jun Fan as original Jeet Kune Do because Jun Fan is the method of training & fighting developed & handed down by Bruce Lee....

Now keep in mind that Jun Fan is considerard the base/core of Jeet Kune Do as Jun Fan basics prepare you the individual for your own personal way of combat....

So you see its like I said before It all comes down to the individual prefrence of how you see it or come to understand it....

By the way you mentioned that Howard Williams is the leader of the Jun Fan movement & will try to take over Jeet Kune Do as a system & put it back on track if I read you right whats that all about?....

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

curtis
10-14-2001, 11:25 AM
Hi Ray. I will keep this short,
to start with Howard Williams, Inside Kungfu mag. did two articals on him, with in the last two years.(look them up,thay are in there arcives.)

Ok if you put the concepts aside, and look at the system its self,jun fan is whingchun based.(ray go back to one of my first articals, I covered the elements of teaching.)
Remember we are talking about(a man who wanted to the fastest gun in the west)Bruce Lee did not want anyone to beat him, so he started leaveing small elements out,that made the teckniques work,
Latter He relised he could give everyone what thay wanted,with out worring about someone being able to beat him,he could teach them to do,but not to understand why. In this way it would be much harder for someone to surpass him.(so he could still be the best.)

Now look whats happened, You now have so many MASTERS that only have peices of the puzel, and who can do,but not teach. now thay are forced to eather go in there own direction,or stop all together. in eather way as the generations go on each one looses a little of what makes it Bruces art.

I suggest that you watch as manny of Bruces students,see what thay all have in common,and conpair them. then if you like, find the one with the most peices and then eather you can try to put the puzel together for your self, Or find someone (like Howard)who can show you the way Bruce did it and why, Then maybe you can put the puzel together for your self.
No matter what you do ,Please remember J.K.D. was never finished.Perhaps with all the peices you can finnish it(for your self)But Bruce will never finish it.

Now back to the concepts.
J.K.D. is the adavanced, and Jun Fan is the basics,

Now after years of training, I relize the basics,are the foundation, and the adavanced are nothing more than the refining of those basics.

Have a good day. C.A.G.

JKDJay
10-18-2001, 07:20 PM
I feel that all martial arts schools that fall under any category vary from school to school. what makes jeet kune do JKD in the eyes of a student at school A might be different than the eyes of a student at school B. It boils down to the teachings and personal development.

What makes Jeet Kune Do, Jeet Kune Do?

The discipline of the individual.

RAYNYSC
10-24-2001, 03:55 AM
I take it that you feel Howard Willams has the most peices of the JKD puzzle,as other masters only have peices of the JKD puzzle,& can do it but can't teach it,unlike Howard who can show you the way Bruce did it & why....
Hey thats fine everyone is intitled to there own opinion....

Oh & by the way I have seen a number of original Bruce Lee students & none of them are as in depth to me
( Meaning as a whole/complete martial artist ) as Sifu/Guro Dan Inosanto when it come to braking down the concepts & principles of JKD Reguardless if you train JF/JKD or JKD Concepts no one comes close.... Not to mention any of the other martial art systems that Sifu/Guro Inosanto teaches.... :D
Anyhow the way I see it Dan's the man!....


A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

curtis
10-24-2001, 11:19 AM
HI Ray
no argument here. Sifu Dan is one the best. (Fighter, and historian of the martial art's) if he is your sifu, you could do worse.
If you have checked out other Bruce Lee students. Then you can see, that the all have somethings similar. (I am not sure what to call it? Perhaps explosive quality to their movements?) Something on how they move is different. You can see it from one student to the next. But you do not normally see it in other people who were not trained by Bruce Lee.
Any who !
Even sifu Dan is feedup with the Jeet Kune Do organization. Perhaps Howard Williams and sifu Dan should get together. Since they are both trying to be true to Bruce. (Two different men, with two different lineages, but with one master. That would be interesting.)
Ray I never said that was only one way. I just said there were many, wrong ways. And many people who want you to follow them down the wrong path. To only one goal, money in their bank accounts. After all (back to the concepts.) the way of the intercepting fist/personal excellence, is individual to its user.
I do believe that jun fan is superior to Jeet Kune Do, as far as establishing a base to learn from , but once your base has been established...
Have good day Ray, looking forward to hear from you again.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

umgong
10-24-2001, 07:38 PM
After a bunch of years in various martial arts, I finally accepted the fact that Bruce Lee's methods was something I had to learn. (I'm muleheaded, will write about it someday)
So in the mid 1960's I tracked Bruce to his College St. kwoon. I had my own Kempo karate school in central California then with my partner, and I was going to college there, but I was willing to give it all up to move to L.A. to study with him then.
On one of my visits to L.A. in '65, I asked Bruce if that was a good idea...I had dropped by and was allowed to workout with his people (everyday) at College St., for several weeks (college break). so he had a chance to observe me.
I asked him if it was a good idea for me to give it all up to study JKD with him. I was surprised when he answered that I should stay in college and instead get rid of all the techniques that were of little use to me, and to simplify and make the techniques that I was good at better so that I could use them in all circumstances under "real" conditions.
After he said that, he seem to think about those words, then he said, "Yeah, that's it...that's the idea behind JKD."
So that's what I did, I got a couple of sparring partners (boxing, wrestling, judo,etc...we practiced full contact) and I began to discard which was not useful for me and kept the techniques that I could use well to dominate my opponents. Then I taught others and see if it was useful to those folks to make sure that I could pass on the concepts to others so that they could become good fighters and pass it on to others.
It's been 34 years now since I last saw him at the kwoon, but I owe him a lot.

Hope that helps.

DancesWithDrunkChicks
10-31-2001, 03:01 AM
Thank you umgong for that simple, eloquent and personal description of your experience with Sigung Lee.

I've been reading the posts in this thread with mixed emotions - mostly confusion :confused: and dispair :rolleyes:

JKD is simple - its Michealangelo's lesson on how to scuplt a horse. You start with a block of stone. Then you take away all the parts that aren't a horse.

JKD is not the horse, but the studied act of taking away all the bits that arent the horse. We all end up with different horses, but JKD is the same for everybody.

;)

Cheers

RAYNYSC
11-06-2001, 02:22 AM
Curtis,
I'll put it like this. The problem here is that often too many times people get caught up with just learning how to do the techniques....

Instead of trying to get an understanding of the underlying principles & theories behind the techniques that make the concepts of JKD work. ( Be it Jun Fan JKD or Jeet Kune Do Concepts )

Keep in mind that individual prefrence as well as attributes such as size,strength,endurance,speed etc,not to mention who you train with
( Meaning you train with good people & put in the time needed & you'll get good results no two ways about it....) play their parts as well. When it comes down to it.... :D

A fighter will block where a master will attack

RAYNYSC

Nin-Po-Dragon
11-06-2001, 04:24 AM
As I heard it......Jeet means to stop and hit!

curtis
11-07-2001, 12:35 AM
Ray I will not argue with those statements.
I wish you the very best in your training. And hope you find your "WAY".
A quote from Miyamoto Musashi.
Looking for the void as way. You will find the way as void.
Research this, and train diligently.
Good luck sincerely. C.A.G.

Excession
12-05-2001, 01:43 PM
Does anyone know where to find online/e-book resources written by(preferably) or on Bruce Lee.

Tai-Jutsuka
03-11-2002, 04:13 PM
A friend of mine who knows 7 forms of kung fu told me that he fought a JKD martial artist at a competition and beat him very easily. He says that it was because the JKD guy was very repetitive in his strikes and he was not very good at hiding his intent. Is this because he is no good at it or is it because the style isn't what I thought it was, which is a very strong and unpredictable style?

red_fists
03-11-2002, 04:25 PM
Tai-jutsuka.

There is only one way to get an asnwer to that question, IMO.

Fight that guy yourself and fight with a large selection of other JKD Guys at different levels.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

curtis
03-12-2002, 01:54 AM
Come on!
thats not fair, judging a hole system on one fight.
perhaps you should take a closer look,before you make up you mind.
C.A.G.

Rolling Elbow
03-12-2002, 10:00 AM
The problem with most of the JKD people is that they come from the Vunak line...looking a certain way when you hook, trapping a certain way, holding teh hands certain way, knee+elbow+dumag....ya know, the same old sh%t. The ones who know what they are doing flow as freely as a competent classical stylist. The majority are learning how to emulate, rather than to grow at ease in their own bodies.

Ford Prefect
03-12-2002, 10:29 AM
Rolling Elbow,

I train under a Vunak instructor, and I haven't noticed any type of emulation. Everybody progresses differently and fights differently.

Rolling Elbow
03-12-2002, 11:55 AM
You are an exception then...

Not that Vunak is bad..He is good and allot of his people are good . BUT, when they all learn to fight in the same emulated manner, they become predictable to someone who has seen it.

SO..JKD is NOT weak. IT "can" be very predictable though. Then again, bad ninjutsu or TKD is the same.

Cyborg
03-12-2002, 11:56 AM
"those who know what they're doing flow as freely as a competent classical stylist" That's funny, I haven't met any classical stylists that flow really well. But... I'll not be judgemental on the ones that I've seen. There's some out there I'm sure!:D

apoweyn
03-12-2002, 01:20 PM
taijutsuka,

how old is your friend? by my calculations, you're 16. presumably, your friend is around that age himself. and he's learned 7 forms of kung fu? is that 7 styles or 7 forms?

i ask because this is the sort of reasoning i expect from very inexperienced people. i know that's offensive, and i'm sorry. but generalizations like this are absurd. nobody conducting serious research on any issue at all contents themselves with one observation. nobody. why would your friend be any different?

you at least knew enough to get other opinions before buying into that line of reasoning. that's to your credit.

ask your friend to seek out, say, four more practitioners of JKD. from varying skill levels and instructors, ideally. see if, after doing a more thorough investigation, he feels the same way.


stuart b.

apoweyn
03-12-2002, 01:24 PM
actually, in rereading your post, i have to concede that your friend didn't say that JKD was telegraphic and easily defeated. he made that observation about the guy he sparred. and that's fair enough.

to answer your question, then, no i don't believe it reflects badly on the style itself. only on that particular individual. and even then, it says he had a bad day. not necessarily that he was a bad practitioner.

it's very difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from one encounter.


stuart b.

Tai-Jutsuka
03-12-2002, 01:50 PM
Yes, I am 16 years old. My friend is 17. He says that he knows 7 forms of kung fu not styles. As much as I would like to fight someone who knows Jeet Kune Do, it and pretty much all other forms of martial arts are pretty much nonexistant where I live. The only karate is the bullsh*t karate that they teach small children, an extremely watered down version of T'ai Chi, and an incredible kung fu school about 2 hours from where I live. Maybe in the next competitions I partake in I will encounter some JKD.

apoweyn
03-12-2002, 02:11 PM
perhaps, yeah. but, again, no it doesn't mean that JKD is a bad style.

by the way, seven styles of kung fu would be a lot for anyone to learn, nevermind a 17-year-old. seven forms is a bit misleading if he's talking about individual sets (kata, poomse, etc.) within one style. if he is, i've learned about 18 forms. and that's far from extraordinary.

keep an open mind and you'll be fine.


stuart b.

CannonFist
03-13-2002, 04:45 AM
Actually most martial arts can be viewed as predicatable. Some may say that Vunak is predicatable, you know the same old straight blast, elbows knees, head butts. You can also say that Choy Lay Fut kung fu is predicyable with its kwa sao charp combos(singinging type back fist, overhand strike, straight punch). If you want to talk about predicatable, you may want to consider Dan Inosanto, this guy can flow seamlessly into all kind of technqiues from boxing to kicking to trapping to wrestling. But I think Dan is most efficient in kali and silat type stuff.

Ryu
03-13-2002, 06:31 AM
Vunak makes his stuff work. He can pull it off.
I have trained with the man himself, and I look nothing like him when I actually train, spar, or fight. My stuff looks more like MMA/NHB
any sincere individual researches his own experience.

Ryu

jkund34
03-27-2002, 12:19 PM
If you want to talk about predicatable, you may want to consider Dan Inosanto,


Are you saying that Dan is or isnt predicatable?

LEGEND
04-14-2002, 06:28 AM
Sounds BS...since I haven't notice many JKDD sparring in competition other than MUY THAI and KICKBOXING events. Vunak is excellent in his trapping. I feel that his students from VA doesn't do anything like him...some are capable at MUY THAI while a few at trapping...others at grappling. Master my ass...still haven't seen many master put themselve in competition to get that type of title or respect.

CannonFist
04-15-2002, 05:16 AM
I was trying to say that if you think that JKD is predictable, then you should consider again and see the seamless flow into a wide range of different techniques.

StickyHands
04-20-2003, 01:40 PM
Well there is the orthodox school of Jeet Kunde Do, derived from Bruce Lee's techniques. But the chance of finding a real intructor knowing the arts of that generation is rare. But searching for the concept Jeet Kunde Do is a lot easier. But eitherway, how do you know that what you're learning really is Jeet Kune Do, the moves that are being taught are actually combat effective and not dojo impressive? Because anyone these days can claim to teach JKD and show you a few jabbs and kicks to the groin, etc. They are lot harder to tell legitimite than a McDojo karate. Thank you.

yenhoi
04-20-2003, 02:22 PM
Huh?

You learn from your teacher. His art, his method. There is no such thing as Jeet Kune Do.

:eek:

StickyHands
04-20-2003, 05:15 PM
Roight... back to square 1 again -_-. Anyone else who had a coffee in the morning and actually read what I posted? No offense. Thanks.

Cyborg
04-20-2003, 06:18 PM
He's referring to the theory that JKD is what you make of it... thus it can be almost anything. (Not everyone agrees with that, but I'm not willing to argue the point.)

1. There is more than 1 "orthodox" school of JKD as what Bruce taught changed over the years.

2. You can tell the real deal apart from the McDojo's just like you do with everything else. Can they explain why they do something? Or do they do it because they were taught it like that? Do they apply it reallistically? In both learning drills and sparring... Ultimately look for simplicity. Are they refining their technique or adding to it?

3. Take the time to find some of the original students and study with them. Until you can see them in action in person, try to find video's/books/articles by them. Each has a different perspective.

4. I may get banned for this but... look for some other forums! This JKD section is just about dead! www.forumco.com/pauljbax/
Very politically controversial but you will probably learn alot anyway.

StickyHands
04-20-2003, 07:36 PM
Yes I understand that JKD is purely based on what you make of it. But I also consider that there needs to be a fundamental basis before you develop stuff of your own. And I rather rely on somone of Lee's pedigree than some teacher who learned some muay thai and judo calling it JKD, because it's not JKD, it's muay thai and judo :o . And the integral aspect of JKD should be Wing Chun, althought Bruce modified it to fit his needs, nonetheless the mother line and the center and central line was still used instead of being discarded. So it would be much more sensible to learn from an instrutor who uses that concept along with calling it a legitimite JKD, otherwise as this gentleman below implied, lol, anything could be JKD -


Originally posted by davethedragon
i studied with wing chun for about 3 years during that time i learnt about an art that is complete and diverse.
i am now interested inlearning what other arts have to offer in order to obtain a greater overall perspective.
i have trained in other different arts including tai chi chuan and systema and find them all fascinating. i also think that there is a lot to offer in learning other arts.
does this make a jeetkune do practitioner i dont know im just doing my thing and loving every minute of it!!!!:D :) :) :) :) :D :D
i love these things!!

StickyHands
04-20-2003, 07:38 PM
But, ironically, what he did is "actually" JKD. :D

Laughing Cow
04-20-2003, 07:42 PM
From what I know BL never intented for JKD to become a specific style.
I also don't think that "JKD" was finished or finalised when he died.

As for the WC connection, that is simply the style that he studied in HK.
But I think his philosophy should hold true regardless of what your base style is.

Cheers.

P.S.: There might soon be another "Ki" thread over on E-Budo, see you there.
;)

StickyHands
04-20-2003, 08:10 PM
Then I really do find it to redundant to call it Bruce Lee's JKD, it's anyone's concept. A concept that belonged to anyone driven to become a fighter ever since the dawn of man. JKD is then rendered a simple MMA, hehe.

P.S. Laughing Cow, what's your sn on e-budo?

Demi @ CSPT
04-21-2003, 07:50 AM
How about this...?

I don't care what bruce Lee said or wanted!

Does anyone ask what Benjamin Franlin would say about this whole "computer" thing. Maybe this is not what he imagined when he discovered electricity.

Would Edison be ****ed about Halogen bulbs.

I'm sure Alex Bell would be boycotting cell phones?

No one should be "bound" by HOW tecnology started. Advancement and development are crucial.

Demi

www.DemiBarbito.com

JKogas
04-21-2003, 04:42 PM
D*mned good post Demi! Couldn't be better said.

-John

StickyHands
04-23-2003, 01:38 PM
That's nice, you're lot of help, thank you for missing the point and overstating the obvious of "freedom of choice." Your opinion most "humbly" accepted. Sigh.... common sense... or lack there of. Oh well. Do me a favor, dont post in this topic, thanks. :)

monkey mind
04-23-2003, 03:47 PM
Is this just a terminology-based misunderstanding? The way I learned it, Jun Fan is the particular art that Bruce Lee developed & JKD is the philosophy behind his ecclecticism. So, the manifestation of JKD is up to the individual, but the art of Jun Fan is the fruit of Bruce's own JKD. Something like that?

JKogas
04-23-2003, 06:17 PM
Jun Fan gung fu is Bruce Lee's method of fighting which evolved from his days in Seattle, Oakland and LA's Chinatown. Jun Fan is Bruce Lee's method of JKD. There are plenty of people around who still teach the authentic Jun Fan, within the OJKD or the JKDC crowd.

Lamar Davis is one person who is into the "original" Jun Fan/JKD method. There are others out there though, it isn't that "rare".

-John

TaiChiBob
04-25-2003, 08:50 AM
Greetings..

No one "knows" if it's the real deal.. we only know what works, just like Bruce.. trim off the flash, get to the essence.. use whatever works..

Be well..

JKogas
04-26-2003, 06:41 AM
Good post! That's exactly what JKD is supposed to be about! Getting to the essense of what works and dropping what doesn't. This is going to be different for each individual as well.

This is why Lee said to "research our own experience" and to absorb what is useful, etc.

Now, how do you suppose we go about doing our "research"?

For me, that's fairly simple: You SPAR!! Spar with equipment on, go all out and allow all ranges (takedowns and ground-fighting, etc) when sparring. You can then add weapons if you like.

Thoughts?

-John

HuangKaiVun
05-19-2003, 12:50 PM
There's only ONE way to tell:

When attacked by an uncooperative opponent, the moves should WORK.

Ryu
05-20-2003, 11:50 AM
StickyHands, with all political and philosophical stuff aside, you have asked how you can verfy legitimate JKD instructors.

Here's the simple answer that you're probaby looking for.

Find people with the proper credentials and lineage to the art.

Ryu

yenhoi
05-20-2003, 12:08 PM
Like................ Ryu himself, I hear.

:eek:

Ryu
05-21-2003, 09:15 AM
Well... :D That's neither here nor there.

:cool:

Ryu

apoweyn
05-27-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by StickyHands
That's nice, you're lot of help, thank you for missing the point and overstating the obvious of "freedom of choice." Your opinion most "humbly" accepted. Sigh.... common sense... or lack there of. Oh well. Do me a favor, dont post in this topic, thanks. :)

StickyHands,

Do the rest of us a favour. Stop responding to any post you don't agree with this way. You're getting responses directly from people with experience in JKD. It may not be the answer you're looking for. But if you came to a discussion forum looking for a specific answer, then I think you're doing it wrong.

If you're looking for a flipping directory of original JKD teachers, just ask for a flipping directory of original JKD teachers. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than telling recognized JKD teachers to not post on your topic.


Stuart B.

yenhoi
05-28-2003, 11:53 AM
:eek:

SifuLMDII
05-30-2003, 11:40 PM
Hello Everyone!

Jun Fan Gung Fu was the art that Bruce Lee taught in the Seattle, Washington kwoon, where he was assisted by Taky Kimura. Jun Fan Gung Fu consists primarily of Wing Chun Gung Fu (probably about 85%-90%) with a few elements from other gung fu systems (10%-15%). Bruce Lee spent five years in Hong Kong learning the Wing Chun system from some of it's best fighters! He chose Wing Chun because of it's raw street effectiveness!

During the Oakland period, Bruce Lee had an encounter with another Chinese martial artist, Wong Jak Man, of the My Jong Law Horn Kuen system of gung fu. Although Bruce Lee won the fight, he was unusually tired and winded when it was over! He felt that it had taken him much too long to get the better of his challenger! This was due to a failure on his part to immediately adjust to the methods of his opponent! This caused him to take more of an interest in physical fitness, as well as closely re examine his art of Jun Fan Gung Fu. He decided that he needed more versatility in his tools and his footwork needed to change to favor more mobility. During this time he composed a letter, saying that he was inventing a new system of fighting that would consist of Wing Chun gung fu, boxing and fencing. This new system was Jeet Kune Do, the "Way of The Intercepting Fist".

During the L. A. Chinatown period, Jeet Kune Do continued to develop. YES, there was a definite curriculum, and YES, the students were required to learn certain things! The kwoon was still called the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, but in Dan Inosanto's own words, what was being taught was Jeet Kune Do! Back then, there was no such thing as Jeet Kune Do "concepts", nor did Bruce Lee himself ever use the term "concepts" to describe his method of fighting! All terminology used in Jeet Kune Do was Chinese in Bruce Lee's lifetime, and the instructor was referred to as Sifu!

There is much talk today about Bruce Lee researching other methods of combat. Contrary to a popular way of thinking these days, he was not looking for things to add to his method. He was looking at other arts so that he could develop counters against their best techniques using his Jeet Kune Do! He was well known for using certain students with particular attributes to bring out his own attributes and abilities. He did not care much for teaching, but instead preferred to train himself to higher skill levels!

Much of his writing was geared toward trying to free other martial artists from the bondage and set patterns of what they were "locked" into! The famous "Liberate Yourself From Classical Karate" article was re-written about a dozen or so times before he finally arrived at the version that appeared in the magazine. I have that original magazine! I walked into the newsstand the day it came out and bought it! So as you can see, I've had plenty of time to read, re-read and read it again! I know what it means, and I know exactly where Bruce Lee was coming from with what he was saying! It has become painfully obvious to me that most people still don't have a clue!

One thing that most peole fail to realize is that most of the things that have been published as Bruce Lee's writings are actually just notes that he took from various other publications. This has recently been proven, and has been brought into the light by a book that was written by my good friend Mr. James Bishop! Many people have been shocked when they found out just how much of the material published as Bruce Lee's writings were not actually his at all, but notes taken from other sources! The stuff that has been published as his writings was never intended for publication! Too many people take things out of context based on the importance they place on certain writings! Most of these people are going to feel like idiots when they find all of this out! Most of what was in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do would have never been published had Bruce Lee lived! IT WAS HIS NOTES! NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS!

That's why I get so sick and tired of reading all of this philosophical stuff posted on the forums by so many people to try and back up their horribly mis-conceived notions as to what Jeet Kune Do is! Jeet Kune Do is a highly scientific method of self defense, based on highly effective, solid scientific principles that will remain constant from now until the end of time! There is a JKD way to stand (the bai jong position), there is specific JKD footwork and there are specific JKD techniques (punching, striking, kicking, defending, trapping). There is a specific progression to the training! The bottom line is, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE THINGS, THEN YOU ARE NOT DOING JEET KUNE DO! It's just that simple!

jmdrake
06-01-2003, 11:12 AM
Hello all,

First for those of you who are not interested in what Bruce Lee was doing, that's fine. I am. That's why I study JKD, why I participate in JKD forums ect. Being on a JKD forum and saying "I don't care what Bruce was doing" is like being on a BJJ forum and saying "I don't care about Helio Gracie's contribution to Jujistu".

Frankly the "Ben Franklin" analogy makes no sense. For several reasons.

1) There has been virtually NO CHANGE in the human body in the past 200 years. Still 2 arms, 2 legs ect.

2) JKD isn't 200 years old. It's closer to 40 years old.

3) The "modern" martial arts being pushed today are at least as old as JKD (Brazilian Jujistu) or MUCH OLDER! (Muy Thai kickboxing).

4) Unlike Ben Franklin who couldn't have even imagined the computer, Bruce was able to experience much of "modern" martial arts including submission holds from Jujistu, MT kickboxing, boxing (he was an avid Ali fan) ect.

A much better analogy is to compare JKD to the Unix operating system. For one thing Unix is software and JKD is a type of "software" for the human body. Also Unix is about the same age as JKD. While other operating systems have much more commercial appeal (Windows, Mac ect), Unix is still seen my many as a powerful stable operating system. In fact Windows has over the years adopted many Unix "concepts" and Apple rewrote the Mac OS to run on top of a variant of Unix. Unix scales up to the most powerful supercomputers yet scales down to fit on a watch. That's similair to JKD being adapted to the practicioner. And certainly much has changed in Unix over the years. Windowing interfaces, different internet protocols ect. But if you really want to be GOOD at Unix you still need to understand the underlying principles that date back 40 years. The same is true for JKD. Adapt it to fit your own needs. But there are still underlying principles from 40 years ago that are just as valid today as they were back then.

Regards,

John M. Drake

yenhoi
06-02-2003, 03:39 PM
There is a JKD way to stand (the bai jong position), there is specific JKD footwork and there are specific JKD techniques (punching, striking, kicking, defending, trapping). There is a specific progression to the training! The bottom line is, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE THINGS, THEN YOU ARE NOT DOING JEET KUNE DO! It's just that simple!

If this is true, then why do his different students (Bruce Lee) teach so differently, and argue over this and that?

Because its not true, its just what Sifu Davis says.

Reeks of marketing.

:rolleyes:

SifuLMDII
06-02-2003, 06:43 PM
No marketing here, just COLD HARD FACTS! Most First Generation Bruce Lee students do teach these things the same way, but there are slight variations based on the time period when someone studied with Bruce Lee. This is why it is extremely valuable to be aware of the major developments of all three periods (Seattle, Oakland, L.A. Chinatown) of Bruce Lee's art, as well as have a strong base in wing chun gung fu! Toward the end, Bruce Lee worked with various students on different things, as he was attempting to bring out the best in each one of them based on their strong points and their weak points! The problem is often that many of them lack the strong base and root structure that Bruce Lee gained from many years of wing chun training.

It always amazes me when someone (usually some "thinks they know it all" person) has to post something negative when someone who has deveoted their entire life to the pursuit of a specific martial arts method makes a very educated and informative post! I have absolutely nothing to gain from posting on this forum! I do it because I feel that if there is a way that I can help someone I should! It's just that simple! These negative people need to get down off their high horse. If not, I fear that some day they will be knocked off! :eek:

rogue
06-02-2003, 07:20 PM
jmdrake


A much better analogy is to compare JKD to the Unix operating system... That last paragraph was horrible and painful to read.


Unlike Ben Franklin who couldn't have even imagined the computer, Bruce was able to experience much of "modern" martial arts including submission holds from Jujistu, MT kickboxing, boxing (he was an avid Ali fan) ect. That one was pretty bad too.

TaiChiBob
06-03-2003, 06:04 AM
Greetings..

Where would JKD be today if Bruce had not passed on.. would it have continued to evolve as Bruce suggested in his "notes"?.. is it fair to his system to confine it to only what he conceived in his short life?.. Or, as many believe, should JKD players continue to refine the JKD concepts (adapt and refine)? Personally, i find it more of a marketing ploy to assert that JKD is only that which Bruce taught.. i sense that the greater lesson he taught was to avoid confinement/stagnation.. continue the endless evolution..

Just another perspective, Be well..

jmdrake
06-03-2003, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by rogue
jmdrake

That last paragraph was horrible and painful to read.

That one was pretty bad too.

I can read it fine rouge. Perhaps you need to take some English as a second language courses. The structure may be technical, but really no different from anything you'd read in any scientific journals. But I'll try to keep things at a lower reading level for you in the future.

Regards,

John M. Drake

jmdrake
06-03-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by yenhoi
There is a JKD way to stand (the bai jong position), there is specific JKD footwork and there are specific JKD techniques (punching, striking, kicking, defending, trapping). There is a specific progression to the training! The bottom line is, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE THINGS, THEN YOU ARE NOT DOING JEET KUNE DO! It's just that simple!

If this is true, then why do his different students (Bruce Lee) teach so differently, and argue over this and that?

Because its not true, its just what Sifu Davis says.

Reeks of marketing.

:rolleyes:

Hello yenhoi,

As Lamar has already pointed out the "major" differences that you see are based on people training from different periods. But there was a definite curriculum. Even Dan Inosanto admits this. I recall one interview where he said that Bruce would scold him sometimes for straying from it. And according to Dan and people who train with him he still TEACHES that definite curriculum, only he calls it "Jun Fan Gung Fu" and "Jun Fan Kickboxing". Check out the Inosanto Academy Schedule (http://www.inosanto.com/acadinfo/schedule/index.htm). Note, there are no classes labeled "JKD". Why? I'm not sure, but it might have to do with the fact that according to Dan, Bruce asked him not to "commercialize" JKD. So the only way to teach it commercially was to call it something else. But when he came out with his video series (http://inosanto.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IAMA&Category_Code=VIDEOS) he called it "Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD Kickboxing". Why did he go back to the JKD name for the video tapes when he doesn't use it for his classes? Reeks of marketing. :rolleyes: ;)

Regards,

John M. Drake

yenhoi
06-03-2003, 11:14 AM
I liked the whole Unix bit, or I got it, at least.

IMO JKD is an art with many different branches, like all the toher random arts, and people like Sifu Davis are just one branch.

Call whatever you 'do' whatever you want. People train and fight, not letters.

:eek:

jmdrake
06-03-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by yenhoi
I liked the whole Unix bit, or I got it, at least.

IMO JKD is an art with many different branches, like all the toher random arts, and people like Sifu Davis are just one branch.

Call whatever you 'do' whatever you want. People train and fight, not letters.

:eek:

Hello Yenhoi,

For the record I know longer try to argue who is/is not doing JKD. I don't have the energy. I leave that to the heavyweights. :) I just feel that there is a body of knowledge which some people call "Jun Fan Gung Fu/Kickboxing" and others call "JKD" that has some usefull info on fighting even in the year 2003 and beyond. I agree with you that the journey is more important than the boat.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Ryu
06-05-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by SifuLMDII
No marketing here, just COLD HARD FACTS! Most First Generation Bruce Lee students do teach these things the same way, but there are slight variations based on the time period when someone studied with Bruce Lee. This is why it is extremely valuable to be aware of the major developments of all three periods (Seattle, Oakland, L.A. Chinatown) of Bruce Lee's art, as well as have a strong base in wing chun gung fu! Toward the end, Bruce Lee worked with various students on different things, as he was attempting to bring out the best in each one of them based on their strong points and their weak points! The problem is often that many of them lack the strong base and root structure that Bruce Lee gained from many years of wing chun training.

It always amazes me when someone (usually some "thinks they know it all" person) has to post something negative when someone who has deveoted their entire life to the pursuit of a specific martial arts method makes a very educated and informative post! I have absolutely nothing to gain from posting on this forum! I do it because I feel that if there is a way that I can help someone I should! It's just that simple! These negative people need to get down off their high horse. If not, I fear that some day they will be knocked off! :eek:


You know, Sifu Davis and I didn't exactly hit it off a while back ago :D But I do have to say that I agree with him here and know where he's coming from.
There is a structure to "JKD". The basics of the art are there. I do agree that things like the bai jong stance, centerline theory, keeping the rear heel up, the push shuffle, the interception, closing the gap, etc. are very crucial to what JKD's (or Jun Fan's) base "system" was and still is.
You can't Thai box and call it JKD :) It's not fair to Thai boxing.
You can't simply throw a bunch of arts together with not thought behind it and call it JKD. It won't be.
Too much of this attitude leads to a relativistic "I can do whatever I want" kind of thing in JKD.
Well.....yeah, to an extent you can do what you want...but sometimes what you want doesn't work in reality. ;)
JKD, above all, guys....is supposed to equal reality.

But having said that, I do think there is a structure to the base system of JKD... that is Jun Fan.
It's definitely not throwing arts together in a blender and calling it Jeet Kune Do....

.............ugh..... I'm starting to sound like an "Original" .....bleech!!
;)
:D

Just kidding, Mr. Davis. :)

Ryu

foolinthedeck
06-08-2003, 01:51 PM
if theres no such thing as JKD...
then why is there a forum called Jeet Kune Do?

HuangKaiVun
06-17-2003, 12:18 PM
To me, JKD is an approach.

You can use whatever styles you want to get to the goal of combat efficiency, as long as you feel that they WORK against a resisting opponent (s).

I find it interesting that the authentic Neijiagong specialists (i.e. Tsuranmen, Seng Men, Ba Gua, Yanqing, etc . . .) were able to distill the entirety of the body's moves down to a few basic interchangeable parts.

The difference between those styles and what Lee did is that they instituted very basic sets to help the body flow into the most natural solution. They also had much more sophisticated and proven training methods than Lee did, who seems to me never to have learned kung fu from masters in mainland China or Taiwan.

In essence, they did what Lee was trying to do with JKD and THEN SOME.

Kymus
07-16-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by StickyHands
Well there is the orthodox school of Jeet Kunde Do, derived from Bruce Lee's techniques. But the chance of finding a real intructor knowing the arts of that generation is rare. But searching for the concept Jeet Kunde Do is a lot easier. But eitherway, how do you know that what you're learning really is Jeet Kune Do, the moves that are being taught are actually combat effective and not dojo impressive? Because anyone these days can claim to teach JKD and show you a few jabbs and kicks to the groin, etc. They are lot harder to tell legitimite than a McDojo karate. Thank you.

If their lineage leads to Guro Dan Inosanto, they are/should be teaching 100% authentic JKD.

myosimka
07-16-2003, 06:11 PM
Ryu,
I am with you but I just have a hard time discussing it with Lamar after the once said that Inosanto didn't fit into JKD. Even when I agree with him it sticks in my throat because of his abusive and dismissive attitude toward other JKD instructors. Including the only people actually vertified by BL, none of whom have ever recognized him as an instructor.

Kymus
07-16-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by yenhoi
There is a JKD way to stand (the bai jong position), there is specific JKD footwork and there are specific JKD techniques (punching, striking, kicking, defending, trapping). There is a specific progression to the training! The bottom line is, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE THINGS, THEN YOU ARE NOT DOING JEET KUNE DO! It's just that simple!

If this is true, then why do his different students (Bruce Lee) teach so differently, and argue over this and that?

Because its not true, its just what Sifu Davis says.

Reeks of marketing.

:rolleyes:

why? because not all of them were at the same level. Guro Dan is the ONLY person certified by Sijo Bruce Lee to teach the art. When it comes down to it, HE is the official one to say what IS and is NOT JKD. The rest is all for the concepts people

StickyHands
07-18-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by StickyHands
Well there is the orthodox school of Jeet Kunde Do, derived from Bruce Lee's techniques. But the chance of finding a real intructor knowing the arts of that generation is rare. But searching for the concept Jeet Kunde Do is a lot easier. But eitherway, how do you know that what you're learning really is Jeet Kune Do, the moves that are being taught are actually combat effective and not dojo impressive? Because anyone these days can claim to teach JKD and show you a few jabbs and kicks to the groin, etc. They are lot harder to tell legitimite than a McDojo karate. Thank you.


Originally posted by Demi @ CSPT
How about this...?

I don't care what bruce Lee said or wanted!

Does anyone ask what Benjamin Franlin would say about this whole "computer" thing. Maybe this is not what he imagined when he discovered electricity.

Would Edison be ****ed about Halogen bulbs.

I'm sure Alex Bell would be boycotting cell phones?

No one should be "bound" by HOW tecnology started. Advancement and development are crucial.

Demi

www.DemiBarbito.com


Originally posted by StickyHands
That's nice, you're lot of help, thank you for missing the point and overstating the obvious of "freedom of choice." Your opinion most "humbly" accepted. Sigh.... common sense... or lack there of. Oh well. Do me a favor, dont post in this topic, thanks. :)


Originally posted by apoweyn


StickyHands,

Do the rest of us a favour. Stop responding to any post you don't agree with this way. You're getting responses directly from people with experience in JKD. It may not be the answer you're looking for. But if you came to a discussion forum looking for a specific answer, then I think you're doing it wrong.

If you're looking for a flipping directory of original JKD teachers, just ask for a flipping directory of original JKD teachers. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than telling recognized JKD teachers to not post on your topic.


Stuart B.

Thank you sir, will do! Oh Lordy Lordy, how infantile of me for not agreeing! Hmmm oh crap, was there something to be agreed about, I am so ignorant, now I missed my own point!:(

HAIL TO THE JKD MASTERS!

yenhoi
07-19-2003, 09:20 AM
:rolleyes:

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-13-2003, 04:42 AM
there isn't such a thing a legit JKD. for starters Bruce Lee is a movie star which propelled his martial arts fame. He thought that straight line was IT, but JKD realised the flawed assumptions and brought in curved strikes. Bruce thought that adding a bit of boxing foot work would solve the sluggishness of wing chun. A judo player picked him up and hauled his butt around the room. JKD players brought in some BJJ to try extend the style.

Basically JKD is a mish mash of styles that have not been properly integrated. a bit of kick boxing, point scoring striking styles and a bit of wrestling and a lot of hero worshiping of Bruce Lee.

That's all your style is about in my opinion. Care to voice yours?

HongKongPhooey
08-13-2003, 08:11 AM
Ego you're a pr1ck. That's all you're about in my opinion. Care to voice yours?

jmdrake
08-13-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
[B]there isn't such a thing a legit JKD. for starters Bruce Lee is a movie star which propelled his martial arts fame. He thought that straight line was IT, but JKD realised the flawed assumptions and brought in curved strikes.

Spoken like someone who clearly knows nothing about JKD.

Regards,

John M. Drake

chen zhen
08-14-2003, 07:01 AM
Ego, don't talk if u know nothing. It clearly shows.

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-16-2003, 06:53 PM
The fact is there isn't that much worthy of knowing about Bruce Lee. We know about his contentious fighting history, his documented loss at the hands of a judo player and his inability to learn the full wing chun system - which is a pretty useless style.
Just because he made his mark in hollywodd he has become larger than life.

chen zhen
08-17-2003, 09:40 AM
Your bashing BL does'nt make us JKD players wanna disgard it as useless. IMO, I dont care whatever u say about BL. I like JKD, I like its approach & philosophy, and that is why I practice it. In fact, my JKD school does'nt even mention Lee's name ever, cos all we care about is training something that works in live combat.

Ryu
08-17-2003, 11:48 AM
Why do you guys take this kind of bait? :D

Settle down guys,

Gene and Bruce played around on sets, Gene put him on his shoulders and carried him around doing his "wrestling" voice while Bruce laughed. There was no fight between them. Ask Gene himself, he'll tell you. LOL. Bruce learned a lot of newaza from Gene.

Bruce's movie stardom was a small part of his life. The man made a grand total of 4 movies. :D The rest of his life and income came from teaching MA.

JKD is a philosophy of finding yourself. It's "name" really represents a journey a fighter takes to learn his weaknesses and better himself in the realm of fighting. Bruce was no exception to this...he found he had a lot of weaknesses and continued to address them. This is what "JKD" is supposed to represent.

Find out why you're ignorant.

liberate yourself from classical Jeet Kune Do.

Ryu

rogue
08-17-2003, 12:12 PM
Ryu, are you trolling again?:confused: :D

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-19-2003, 06:41 AM
Ryu,

Bruce was serious but Gene picked him up and tossed him around like a 2 yr old child. To avoid further emberessment, Bruce laughed along as well.

I think Bruce is more prepared to admit his faults than some of his hero worshippers on this forum who think of Bruce the almighty fighter. I guess Hollywood does make you appear larger than life even if its 4 very bad movies plus dressing up as the green hornet.

Even that green hornet wasn't the main character, he was just a side kick who does what he's told just like Robin's role with Batman. I think David Caradine is much better than Bruce Lee.

Others here are hypocrites who bow to his philosophy but try to distance themselves from the man. The man and philosophy are one. They are closet admiers of Bruce. Those who are know who i am talking about. chen zhen!

Ryu
08-19-2003, 10:45 AM
So what?

I admire Bruce. He had many weaknesses that he addressed during his training as a martial artist. That's the way it should be.

That's what just about any honest fighter does. Self-evaluation.

by the way, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from about Gene and Bruce. There wasn't any seriousness involved (except during training I suppose). Ask Gene yourself. :)

Ryu

chen zhen
08-20-2003, 09:49 AM
I think David Caradine is much better than Bruce Lee.

OMG:eek:


Others here are hypocrites who bow to his philosophy but try to distance themselves from the man. The man and philosophy are one. They are closet admiers of Bruce. Those who are know who i am talking about. chen zhen!

Biiyatch!
Dun use my name in vain, it is a sin.
I train JKD because I wanted to learn some Streetfighting techniques & tactics. It is only a fase in my development. I really dont care what the name of the school or style is, as long as they keep it real & teach something useful. So shut yo trap.
HO

Dark Knight
08-21-2003, 11:54 AM
by the way, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from about Gene and Bruce. There wasn't any seriousness involved (except during training I suppose). Ask Gene yourself.

I did, Gene is a great guy and does not talk about it. His website talks a little about it, but the people who were there have a different story.

Gene is a great Martial artist and a great person, when was the last time you heard him say anything bad about any one?

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-23-2003, 12:08 AM
Come on people. If Bruce Lee can really fight we won't have to keep digging around for hsitorical evidence. Lost cities of the ancient world were found with a lot less digging.

You can ask Gene or anyone, but it will never waver the faiths of believes who feel that Bruce's methods are the epitomy of kung fu.

Maybe they're right and the rest of us are blind. Following the invention of the gun, perhaps the rightful place for Kung Fu in this world is on the film set and in flimsy philosophy. Well done Bruce you truley have foresight and a leader in this field.

chen zhen
08-23-2003, 10:41 AM
Patrick Strong's opinions on BL. Worth a read, if it helps anything. (http://chihand.com/Archive/BruceLeeUnderestimated.htm)

Internal Boxer
09-02-2003, 06:01 AM
Speaking from a completely neutral standpoint there appears to be two types of people who spoil it for the rest, the Bruce hero worshippers and the Bruce Haters. If the people slagging Bruce off were honest with themselves they would see that they are being subjective not objective about this.

The only way we can be objective is to look at what other fighters who have had first had experience of Bruce if they consider him to be of limited ability. Gene has not expressed any such views. Anyway, Look at Gene one of the most exceptional skilled judo players of our time, very few skilled fighters would be able to handle his ability, it ain't no shame if Bruce did loose against him.

I do not think anyone can deny Bruce's contribution to MA has been a positive one. To deny this is being blinded by your own dislike for Bruce. Although there is a flip side to that coin, Hero worship of Bruce is equally dangerous as it can Blind you to thinking that Bruce was a MA messiah rather than a skilled Martial artist and teacher.

Ego_Extrodinaire
09-08-2003, 07:03 AM
Bruce Lee came at a time when the asian martial arts was a relatively new thing to the west. Obviously the little he did seemed great. He had the marketing machine of hollywood behind him. A lot of his students today as well as those he sparred with are either movie stars or had the head start in setting up their own dojo.

Given that the public today holds Bruce Lee in such high regard, would any of them say that what they learned from Bruce Lee was quite ordinary from their business point of view?

To get the truth behind Bruce one must understand that he did not complete his Wing Chun training and tried to tag on a bit of boxing and fencing. It seems he's doing little more than kick boxing in today's terms.

Dim Wit Mak
01-29-2005, 04:41 PM
I was looking over Martial Arts of the World and I see that Bruce Lee founded both Jun Fan Kung Fu and Jeet Kune Do. I have read a lot about Jeet Kune Do, but don't know much about Jun Fan. Can anyone tell me about the similarities and differences? Thanks.:)

Knifefighter
01-29-2005, 05:23 PM
Jun Fan is Bruce Lee's name in Chinese. Jun Fan was an earlier version of JKD.

SPJ
01-29-2005, 05:39 PM
Jun Fan or Cheng Fan.

He at first summaried his studies in Cheng Fan Quan Fa or boxing methods.

Jeet Kune Do is the name of his style.

Intercept boxing way or Jie Quan Dao.

DragonzRage
01-30-2005, 01:20 PM
"Can anyone tell me about the similarities and differences?"

That's a tough question because the answer largely depends on who you're talking to. I think the most concrete way to look at it is that Jun Fan Gung fu was a unique method of "kung fu" (for lack of a better term) that Bruce developed based on his own ideas, attributes and preferences. It was largely based on Wing Chun, although much of the techniques were from other sources and the structure was heavily modified. In any case, Bruce was still mostly a Wing Chun artist at the time he developed the method which would later be known as Jun Fan Gung fu, so much of JF comes straight outta wing chun. There's still heavy usage of chi sao, trapping hands, pak sao, tan sao, lop sao, blah blah blah.

Its hard to compare exact technical differences with "JKD" since Bruce never really codified JKD as a system. Different schools of JKD thought have extremely different ideas about what "JKD" really is. But from all accounts I've read, around the time Bruce died the stuff he was practicing under the term "Jeet Kune Do" stopped looking anything like Wing Chun. He had scrapped Jun Fan, began moving away from chi sao and all that stuff, and his techniques were forming into something along the lines of what we now call kickboxing.

Dim Wit Mak
01-30-2005, 02:18 PM
Much thanks for all who took the time to respond. It seems that Bruce Lee was a very complex individual, and to try to understand him requires the realization that his approaches to martial arts went through an evolutionary process as he thought about and evaluated different styles and techniques.

kung fu fighter
02-16-2005, 12:39 PM
Hi,
In my opinion what bruce lee taught as jeet kune do was his martial arts research that he used to understand/ explore the wing chun system. when Bruce Lee moved to the united states he had to continue learning on his own since his master was still in hong kong. My sifu mentioned that Bruce Lee kept his beloved wing chun to himself and guarded it very jelously. He said that if you knew Bruce's personality you knew that he had to always be top dog so he would have done anything to protect that. Especially teaching a bigger more powerful westerner his true wing chun skills (everything being equal size matters). in my opinion Bruce tried to teach classical martial artist how to liberate themselves using certain universal principles that he found from his research. Jeet kune do is just a process that every martial artist should go through of personal growth nothing more. Even Dan inosanto mentioned in an issue of black belt magazine that bruce told him not to teach certain wing chun techniques under any circumstances. He said they were big secrets so since Bruce was the head man, Dan kept it that that way. If memory serves right the techniques were double lop sao, and lop sao biu jee. Dan also mentioned that when Bruce was serous about a fight he would stand perfictly still and then explosively close the gap and finish the opponent. This concept is pure wing chun in application.

My sifu then ask me what other system can you use to finish a fight in seconds. I could only think of one "wing chun".

Regards
kung fu fighter

NorthernShaolin
02-16-2005, 01:37 PM
Quote:
[My sifu then ask me what other system can you use to finish a fight in seconds. I could only think of one "wing chun".]

In reallity any given Martial Arts can do this. It really depends on the ability and experience of the practitioner in each particular martial art system or style, not just Wing Chun.