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Scott
08-25-2000, 11:09 AM
Hi =) I'm biased and only partially informed, but hopefully by spouting my fact laced opinions (or vice-versa) I can get a better idea of the full story.

Step 1:

Bruce Lee never mastered ANY martial art. He trained for 2 years under Yip Man in Wing Chun, but only learned up to the 2nd of 6 sets (Chum Kiu.) From what I understand, his first year or so he was a terrible slacker.

Step 2:

He never fought in a documented fight, where he had something to lose. There are NO records of him earning fame the traditional way, through tournaments to prove his own skill. There are some rumored fights between him and Wong Jack Mon (sp?) but no one is clear about the outcome of that fight. The Bruce Lee fans (his wife and few pupils) who were there claim that he chased down Wong and beat him up. This is obviously not true, because Wong taught class the next day. Wong's supporters claim that Wong refused to use any kicks. I don't think this is true, either, because Bruce Lee WAS a good fighter, and Wong wasn't an idiot.

3)

The Brucanator supposedly is a great guy for bringing Kung Fu to the Americas.. But this is the same guy who later charged 500 dollars an hour and more to his students.


What I see from Bruce Lee is someone who wanted fame, bad. He didn't want to take the time to actually earn it by mastering a martial art, so he made a new one up out of what he knew. Then he travelled to America (Hell, no one would know the difference anyway, since he was the first Kung Fu person here,) And got fame for it. But no one really knew real Kung Fu, and the people in China didn't respect him because here he was, training with Wing Chun's grandmaster, and he threw it away not even half way through his training to become a famous 'movie star.'


Here's some words to think of when you consider Bruce's fighting skill...

If Keanu Reeves can dodge bullets in the Matrix, Bruce Lee can have an excellent fighting system in Enter the Dragon.

Tekarius
08-25-2000, 12:52 PM
Mr. Scott,
there is a few things I would have to disagree. Bruce Lee didn't spent 2 years in Wing Chun, he spent 5 years under Yip Man.
You also said that he didn't take the time mastering his art that's not true, he does 2000 punches a day. Also why are you upset that he came to america? He made kung fu popular.
One last question how old are you Mr. Scott?
I'm not trying to offend anyone here but just giving my opinion.

DragonzRage
08-26-2000, 01:09 AM
T-R-O-L-L....TROLL!! YAWN....next please.

Scott
08-26-2000, 03:21 AM
I walk about 4000 steps every day, does that make me a grandmaster at kicking? A boxer might throw 2000 punches a day, but is he a master at Jeet Kune Do?

I am not angry at all that he came to America. But, I'm saying that he's not that great of a fighter.

Tekarius
08-26-2000, 05:25 AM
Mr.Scott in your mind who is a great fighter?

overdemon
08-26-2000, 05:34 AM
The old chinese(60+) don't like him
even my own father don't like Bruce Lee (55)
He even said that the legendary Wong fuy fung was better!!!
but I like bruce lee cuz he's method is to fight as quick as possible!
even with pulling your eyes ball out
before the fight begin!

Tekarius
08-26-2000, 06:10 AM
What does he hate about Bruce Lee? Wong Fei Hung what has he done that's so great? I mean don't get me wrong,I have nothing against Wong Fei Hung.

Scott
08-26-2000, 12:34 PM
In my mind, a great fighter is someone who learns Kung Fu and applies it as a method of self protection and self preservation of those around them. This is my definition of a great fighter.

A great teacher, however, is different; and this is what Bruce was going for. The most basic way for one teacher to prove he is more apt to teach than another is for the two to compete in a duel; this is the way most traditional teachers became famous. In the olden days, if one teacher lost a duel he died, and if he backed out of a duel, his students generally left him to join the person he was afraid to fight. Creating your own martial art to claim grand-mastership and thus making yourself 'the best' without having to fight anyone, then charging $500 an hour and up for lessons.. This is exploitation, to me.

Most every martial art has its "great" revered master. Wing Chun's is undoubtebly Yip Man, as there is universal agreement in his being a Grandmaster during his time. There is no such agreement now, there are dozens of people claiming to be grandmasters. Why is Yip Man such a great fighter? He fought other fighters, and his success made Wing Chun popular. What makes Bruce Lee popular? He borrows ideas from other martial arts and applies them in choreographed fights on the big screen. Sure, he is supposed to have won a few street fights back in China, but anyone could do that after training with Yip Man for 5 years. I can probably win any 1 on 1 fight against an unskilled opponent and I've only been training in Wing Chun for 6 months. And my teacher isn't a Grandmaster =)

So what I'm saying is.. Bruce Lee is nothing great. He never proved himself, ever. There is no documentation of him doing anything extrodinary.. In my mind his fighting skills are where they should be -- a 5 year student of Yip Man. So yah, he's good. But not anything incredible.


Let me give a brief backup on where I feel Bruce Lee's skills are really at. First off, Yip Man's method of training makes for incredible fighters(his 5 oldest pupils are the most respected Wing Chuners today, among them Sunny Tang, Leung Ting and Ralph Maier.)

HOWEVER, to become efficient in Wing Chun it took about 9-10 years of training with him. In most modern Wing Chun classes, the students know Bil Jee, the last hand form, by the end of their 1st year. In Yip Man's classes, this wasn't taught until the 7th to the 8th year. So, while you cover more ground quickly in modern classes, Yip Man's path led to greater fighters. So where does this leave Brucey?
He would be an excellent fighter, but lacking in alot of the finer points of the system. Chum Kiu, the 2nd hand form and most complex Wing Chun set he knew, covers basic footwork and kicking only, and I don't believe that Bruce studied Chin Na, but correct me if I'm wrong. This means that he would be very skilled at the basics of Wing Chun, but nothing complicated yet. Maybe Yip Man's "Slow but steady" method of training got Bruce bored. However, how can Bruce claim that Wing Chun is 'Too slow' (See his supposed victory of Wong Jack Man) when he was only 1/3 of the way through the system?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Wing CHun is so powerful that a student of his caliber could defeat a master at Northern Long Fist. Wong must have studied his art at LEAST 20 years longer than Bruce had his, and been a master of it for probably 10. The way I see it, Bruce came to America, didn't have a way to master Wing Chun any more if he wanted to (no teachers) so he set about making something new. But, if I make "Scott-Do" and claim I'm the master at it (Since I'm the only practicioner) am I a great martial artist?

-Scott.

Sihing73
08-27-2000, 01:37 AM
I know I should'nt reply but here goes /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Scott,

You mention Yip Mans 5 oldest students and throw Leung Ting in among them? Leung Ting was one of Yip Mans last "closed door" students so I doubt if he would qualify as one of the oldest /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As to most Wing Chun students today learning the Third form within a year; where do you get your information? Certainly not from a Wing Chun school. I have known several different lineages and I have yet to come across one that trains all three forms in the first year.

Just curious. BTW; regardless of whether Bruce Lee mastered Wing Chun or not, I feel he did not, I do not think it is realistic to consdier him a slackard. Bruce admitted that he would never be the best in Wing Chun and after he had a falling out with Yip Man was when he "developed" his own art.

Peace,

Dave

Master Po
08-27-2000, 02:27 AM
So let me get this straght... Bruce wasn't a good fighter because he only knew two forms????

Can someone say "brain washing"!

If anything he would have been a good fighter INSPITE of learning two classical forms!!

I have no idea how good of a fighter Bruce was. People who know him, many of them martial artist, claimed he was an excellent fighter and fought in challenge matches all the time.

From reading the Tao of JKD he had a great concept of what is is to be a skilled fighter. Plus, if you can show me where Bruce EVER called himself a grandmaster of anything I will be shocked!!

Master P

Scott
08-27-2000, 03:21 AM
Perhaps I was mispoken when I said "Yip Man's oldest students." More.. Any of Yip Man's closed door students.

Master Po.. Umm =)

"So let me get this straght... Bruce wasn't a good fighter because he only knew two forms????
Can someone say "brain washing"!

If anything he would have been a good fighter INSPITE of learning two classical forms!!"

Nice job striking a blow at every form of Kung Fu, Karate, and TKD in existence =P

Forms are simply a method of introducing and teaching new techniques. At least, that's what they are in Wing Chun. I don't see where learning classical sets can hurt you..And clearly there is something 'to them,' because its hard to say that Kung Fu doesn't work as a fighting system. There's just too much proof against it.


Sihing, the school I learn Wing Chun from teaches Bil Jee after one knows the first 60 moves of the Mook; regardless of the time frame.

Of COURSE Bruce knew alot about what it took to be a skilled fighter.. Most of his 'fighting concepts' are just regurgitated Wing Chun theories.


Back to the subject of his only knowing 2 forms.. Bruce would have been fighting martial artists who knew their complete systems if he were to compete seriously, but he didn't know his complete system. You can't just make up the end of Wing Chun; no one is that good. Wing CHun has gone through generations of refinement. You'll see Bruce Lee do some moves on the Mook in his movies, but he doesn't know the actual Mook set, he is just making it up. Does he think he's THAT Good? He didn't even know the Wing Chun set to compare the two.

In my opinion, Brucey, having NEVER learned the intricacies of his system, wouldn't have stood a chance against a master of their system. Most of the more complicated things are embedded in the last sets you learn, and Bruce didn't know them. Bil Jee, something he didn't know, traditionally isn't taught to all the pupils because it is too deadly.

-Scott

DragonzRage
08-27-2000, 03:54 AM
Alright then moron...

"Creating your own martial art to claim grand-mastership and thus making yourself 'the best' without having to fight anyone, then charging $500 an hour and up for lessons.. This is exploitation, to me."

1) he never claimed to be creating a new martial art.
2) he fought plenty of people in his day and anyone he bothers to read his history will see that. I won't waste my time going over it, but there is JUST as MUCH documentation of his fights as there was of any other Gung fu related challenges in his day.
3) he trained many of his common students for FREE if he felt they showed promise and could apply what he was offering. He charged hundreds per hour whenever some dickhead celebrity wanted him to fly out to some distant location to give private instruction. That kind of thing really impeded his day to day life and work especially considering the fact that many of these celebrity students weren't very serious about their training. if they wanted to pay that much then that's their problem. You actually think that a welder like James Yimm Lee or a school teacher like Dan Inosanto would have that kind of money to pay? No they wouldn't and he never asked that of them.

"Let me give a brief backup on where I feel Bruce Lee's skills are really at. First off, Yip Man's method of training makes for incredible fighters(his 5 oldest pupils are the most respected Wing Chuners today, among them Sunny Tang, Leung Ting and Ralph Maier.)"

Have you even SEEN any of these guys fight for real?? How the hell can you talk about how great they were when none of them had much more to back their fighting rep than Bruce Lee did? The only fully trained Yip Man student to ever have a fight captured on tape was William Cheung and to put it lightly, that came out less than spectacular.

"Yip Man's path led to greater fighters. So where does this leave Brucey?"

Again, what the hell do you base this on? No yip Man student ever worked with as wide a variety of true fighters and teachers as Bruce Lee did. They had a reputation for beating local Hong Kong Gung fu practitioners who were 5'6" 120 pounds and doing nothing but traditional Gung fu. Big deal. Bruce was sparring/training with the likes of Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis and Gene LeBell and he earned great respect and recognition from all of them.

"He borrows ideas from other martial arts and applies them in choreographed fights on the big screen."

He also trained some of the best full contact karate/kickboxing fighters of that time and he got complete respect from all the great martial artists he ever crossed paths with.

"I can probably win any 1 on 1 fight against an unskilled opponent and I've only been training in Wing Chun for 6 months."

LOL!! You'd be surprised, sonny.

"And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Wing CHun is so powerful that a student of his caliber could defeat a master at Northern Long Fist. Wong must have studied his art at LEAST 20 years longer than Bruce had his, and been a master of it for probably 10."

What the hell is this traditionalist obsession of judging caliber in terms of how many forms or how many years he's been training? I've met 20 yr karate practitioners and guys who've learned every form in their Gung fu style who suck and would probably go down to any two yr boxer or submission fighter.

"But, if I make "Scott-Do" and claim I'm the master at it am I a great martial artist?"

If you have enough skill and knowledge to back up your claims legitimately with results, then why the hell not?

Scott
08-27-2000, 08:44 AM
.... no =P

Yes, Chuck Norris is FAR superior to any of those puny wimpy Kung Fu people. I mean, he does KARATE! Jesus Christ, he's awesome! He's like, 7th degree blackbelt!!(sarcasm)

None of the people you listed are "like the real thing." They're all other martial artists.

I love how you non traditionalist martial artists even call Wing Chun a traditional art.. IT ISN'T =) A traditional art is something that doesn't allow change to come into the art, but Yip Man nearly completely revamped Wing Chun only 50 - 60 years ago, if I recall correctly.

Tekarius
08-27-2000, 09:16 AM
Mr.Scott I have one question and please answer it. When did Bruce Lee said he was a good fighter.

vingtsunstudent
08-27-2000, 01:06 PM
well well well
it's good to se you all know bruce lee so well.
bruce did not last 5 years at yip's school, he did learn the first 2 forms as well as about the first 6 sections of the dummy.he did move to america & upon returning to hong kong asked yip if he could video him so as to continue training in america & that led to their disagreement.(by the way yip man was at this stage only overseeing classes & nearly all of bruces training was under wong shun leung)
bruce did return to the usa with videos of some of wong's challenge matches which have never been seen since.
he did develop his own style but his students who witnessed him fight all said that whenever this did happen all they ever saw him use was wing chun.he never claimed to be a grandmaster of anything.(whenever he did return to hong kong he would always visit wong to either train or chat about his new ideas)
biu jee is not the most advanced form, infact many good teachers understand that this form is only learnt to cover mistakes or say you may be injured & only have the use of 1 arm or the such-there are many other reasons why one may have to use biu jee but that is the topic for another discussion(most preferably in the wing chun forum),the reason it may not also be classified as such is due to the fact it quite often directly goes agaist wing chuns basic principles.(chum kiu is generally regarded as the most advanced hand form due it's teaching of movement & dealing with multiple attackers)
as to the 'old' students you have mentioned i can not respond except for this ralph maier sounds like a foriegn name(is it?) & yip personally had no foriegn students & as to leung ting & william cheung it is common knowledge amongst people who know that they also never completed the system under yip man directly(for those who wish to argue this piont think of it like this first-these two are both saying that yip man passed over students like wong, tsiu sin tin & the likes who had been with him for many more years to give them his better version of the system.
PLEASE.)
scott,if your teacher teaches the art this way although i'm sure it's great to learn at this pace it is of absolutly no use to you as there is no way possible to have grasped or developed your basics sufficiently.
bruce was a good fighter but as we all know there is always someone better.
if anyone would like to discuss the topics in more detail let me know as i can assure you i have discussed many of these plus more with my sifu, who was wong shun leung's brother in law & had the rare oppitunity to look over & discuss with wong all the letters bruce had sent him from america.
ps just one more thing to scott-wong sifu only had done wing chun for a couple of years before he started closing down kung fu schools all over hong kong.

Kurgan
08-28-2000, 12:24 AM
I'm new here and I must say Scott that yours is the stupidest post I have read in a long time.

What do you hope to gain by coming on here with your negativity? As for Bruce Lee, you don't get it do you?

The Kurgan

kungfuswack
08-28-2000, 02:10 AM
I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about! Who cares if Bruce Lee ever learned 2 forms or 5 forms. After 4 years and a usesless blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do, as far as I'm concerened, forms are as valuble in a street fight as learning to polka, perhaps less. Doing techniques without at least a partially resisting opponant is a waste of time. You can argue that some techniques are so dangerous that there's no way of practicing them. I would respond by saying that you might as well forget about them then, because if you haven't drilled ad nausium against a live opponant, and tried it over and over again in sparring sessions, or it involves more than 2 or 3 steps, it won't happen for you in a stressfull situation. For me, fast eye gouges, simple combinations of jabs, crosses and hooks work, destructions almost never work, but groin and stomach kicks work, outside thigh kicks as in mui thai don't really work that well fot the first couple, knees, elbows and biting from the clinch work, especially if you keep up the knees to the side of the legs and groin, chain punching works, mostly because in street fights, people take the outside exclusivly, and ignore centre line, and simplified position oriented jiu-jitsu, and some easier wrestling takedowns work. Thats all I've got as far as actual techniques that I'd feel confident attempting in a fight, but you know what? I know they all work for me against a variety of opponants. I don't need to worry that what I'm going to do is going to be effective, or have the results I want. I know they probably will. I don't care if a more experienced fighter with a larger library of techniques could beat me in the ring or on the mat. Where it counts is in the bar and on the concrete. I would suggest that you try and concentrate on makeing yourself a better fighter, and getting rid of silly ideas about yourself or what you can do. And get rid of the idea that more techniques equals better techniques. On the street, when you're scared and shaking and feel like you're going to throw up, if you can remember half of what you know, then you're a lot calmer than I am. I've been in 2 streetfights since beginning JKD a year ago, and I was scared ****less both times. In JKD, it's idiotic to try to learn bruce lee's techniques, then when they don't work, feel cheated. Take a realistic look at who you are, and how you are built, and train for that. I'm small, so I train for maximum viciousness and speed, because I won't get by on power or distance. On the street, a bigger guy should perhaps hang back and deal with an attack, keeping his opponant on the outside where he can use his reach and power. I can't. I have to go in looking to kill. JKD is like a condom. It's loose enough and tight enough to fit just about anybody. In the end, it doesn't have one god **** thing to do with bruce lee, or Dan inosanto or anybody but you. Just my opinions(s), but it's my opinion, so I'm fairly certain I'm right.

Spaz
08-28-2000, 02:56 AM
Bruce Lee was an amazing fighter, it doesnt matter how many forms you learn, it is how well u apply them, and he did an amazing job of doing so.

Tekarius
08-28-2000, 09:30 AM
I agree spaz.

origenx
08-28-2000, 10:45 PM
1) So what if Bruce never learned the full art? He never claimed to be a wing chun grandmaster.

2) Bruce fought in plenty of streetfights and gave enough demos to sufficiently impress just about everyone he met. He never backed away from a challenge from anybody. Stories of these encounters still circulate to this day. And oftentimes, he was so good he would merely toy with people instead of truly trying to hurt them. So much so that most of the top tournament fighters of his day (Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, etc.) became his pupils. So, if he already teaching & training with the top tournie champs, what was the point of entering the tournies? Would only have been to prove to others, not himself - and he probably didn't see time in wasting on that. He had much bigger dreams to fulfill.

3) Actually, according to A&E's biopic - Bruce Lee, the Immortal Dragon, it was somebody else's suggestion (I forget who) for Bruce to teach rich old ****s kung fu lessons at exorbitant rates so he could pay the bills as he was transitioning from kung fu teacher to Holywood actor. For an out-of-work actor with 2 kids, he was not one to say no at the time.

However, I will agree that Bruce chased fame & fortune. He was also cocky and a show-off. "Old school" Chinese might view these as worldy attachments and low-level thinking. A "true master" cares not for fame, fortune or self-gain in general. Hence, many of the greatest masters you may never have heard of. So, from this perspective, they might say that Bruce took some of the ancient arts and sold it out to the world. Of course, a western perspective would view it as the opposite - he simply achieved what everyone naturally wants, and he "shared" his gift, not "flaunted" it. As for my personal opinion about the 2 viewpoints, I currently have not made up my mind! I think it's improper to show off, but at the same time I do want to see what people can do and don't want them to hide their skills! Perhaps the point is that fame/fortune/whatever in itself is not a problem, just an attachment to it is.

Either way, he died at 32. So, perhaps he still ultimately paid for his defiance of the "old ways?"

rogue
08-29-2000, 07:24 AM
Don't worry Scott. After being a big Bruce Lee fan I've grown tired of the cult of personality that has sprung up around him. C'mon all, talk up the guys who are still with us.

DragonzRage
08-31-2000, 11:41 PM
Don't anyone get me wrong. I'm not a Bruce Lee worshipper or a wing chun hater by any means. I know Bruce wasn't invincible either...and he IS dead so its kind of pointless to speculate on this and that about him. BUT I admire him a lot and feel that he made a great deal of contribution to martial arts and cultural awareness. I've looked up to him as a great example (NOT an idol) long before I ever considered myself a praqctitioner of the JKD philosophy. Out of my respect for him I just don't like to see people saying false things about him. If you don't like him for whatever reason, you're of course entitled to your opinion. But keep your facts straight at least. Bruce never claimed grandmastership of any system, he didn't charge everybody $500 an hour for instruction...and there are plenty of documented instances that show that he had legitimately great skill. Those are the facts, plain and simple. My problem with many of the harsh critics of Bruce Lee is not the fact that they don't like him, but the fact that much of their biases are based on half truths and minced words. That's just ridiculous.

BTW Scott, an art by itself is not traditional. Its the way people think about it and practice it that makes it traditional/non traditional...and you're right, Yip Man was not exactly traditional.

HuangKaiVun
09-01-2000, 03:26 PM
Anybody who's REALLY practiced Wing Chun should be able to SEE that Bruce Lee had wondrous Wing Chun techniques and truly understood Wing Chun concepts to the degree to which it was shown to him.

As a Northern Shaolin practitioner, I'll be the first to admit that Wong Jack Man was likely incapable of using his skills. If he were, he would never have agreed to fight Bruce Lee in a "challenge match" - the skills one learns from that style cause one to grow to a higher maturity level than that of the mere "I'll kick your ass" variety.

Bruce Lee's practice of JKD is actually closer to the way Wing Chun was MEANT to be used than virtually everyone else's authenticated Wing Chun.

That is because Wing Chun was meant to be an art that was applicable to ANY combat situation. Bruce Lee took classical Wing Chun techniques and applied them to the Western kickboxing, movie, and streetfighting arenas. Even his concept of "formlessness" is an idea that WILL spring from the constant solo practice of Siu Lum Tao (Shaolin Thought, the 1st WC form).

To me, Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and one of the best exponents of Wing Chun in history. Too bad he didn't complete his training - we'd likely still have him around today.

Kymus
09-02-2000, 09:20 AM
ok, you guys all have the wrong idea
bruce lee charged 250 an hour, to MOVIE STARS not his students, get it right,
another thing, he learned 60% of wing chun.
he wasnt a slacker, he learned faster than anyone yip man has ever trained. bruce lee was a great martial artist and is a mentor to many, dont say he didnt deserve to achieve what he did, and dont say he wasnt much of a martal artist. bruce lee was a gifted man, well beyond his years, and if he was alive today, your mouth would be knocked shut, master lee didnt need to document how good he was, he knew it, people who knew him also knew it, bruce once told me i was becoming quite good, so i asked him who would give you the title of good and you just did me? you? , he said, ive never said i was good, however when asked i politely say "if i said i was good you would probaly think im bragging, if i said i was not you would know id be lieing"
bruce lee helped make martal arts what they are today, if anyone has any respect for master lee, stop this topic, its just wrong to try to take away all he gained,
Sincerely
Keith

Tekarius
09-02-2000, 10:17 AM
I agree with Kymus.
However I think Bruce Lee abused his body a bit.

vingtsunstudent
09-02-2000, 10:34 AM
i don't mean to be rude but--
originally posted by haung kai vun
Lee's practice of JKD is actually closer to the way Wing Chun was MEANT to be used than virtually everyone else's authenticated Wing Chun.
absolute BS !
originally posted by kymus
another thing, he learned 60% of wing chun. he learned faster than anyone yip man has ever trained.
i am sorry but i have to disagree with these 2 statements,bruce was predominatly trained by wong shun leung not yip man.
he didn't learn no where near as fast as others.
i have since asked again to make sure but he did only learn the first 2 hand forms & approx. 4 sections of the wooden dummy.(this is not even near 50% of the system)
at this level of training in those days this would have meant that he did have quite a good knowledge of chi sao & the also a good idea as to wing chuns philosophy on fighting.
i don't claim to know it all but if you read my earlier post you may understand that i know someone who pretty well does.(not that my sifu claims to know it all either)
i don't hate bruce either in fact i quite admire him, not only for his odvious martial skills but i think you have to admire anyone who could go to a foriegn land with virtually nothing & achieve what he was able to.
thanx
vts

Tekarius
09-02-2000, 11:08 AM
vingtsunstundent I have a question what's your lineage?

vingtsunstudent
09-02-2000, 03:21 PM
hi tekarius
my sifu's name is barry lee & he is the first westerner to complete the system under wong shun leung & also his brother in law which as you may well imagine gave him the incredible good fortune to view all of wong's personal letters from bruce lee.if you'd like to read a little bit more about my teacher try this link. http://www.vingtsun.net/sifuba~1.html
hope this has been of use.
vts

HuangKaiVun
09-02-2000, 05:31 PM
I spoke from PERSONAL experience that Bruce Lee's WC was closer to "real WC" only because the practitioners I've seen (some of whom are authenticated Yip Man-Yip Chun lineage holders) don't even approximate 10% of Bruce Lee's "incomplete WC".

However, I conveniently forgot that there are students like vingtsunstudent (that I HAVEN'T MET YET) who know and practice true WC.

My error!

vingtsunstudent
09-02-2000, 06:09 PM
i to am sorry, because yes there really are some poor wing chun teachers out there, as i have mentioned in other posts that a lot seem to be deviating from pure wing chun, for whatever their reason though i don't know.
you only need look at some of the picture sequences, in magazines, that are by suppossedly high level practioners to see that they have either deviated from or don't really have a true grasp of the systems fighting technics that they are teaching.
sorry again
vts

[This message has been edited by vingtsunstudent (edited 09-03-2000).]

Tekarius
09-03-2000, 04:53 AM
very impressive vingtsunstudent. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nismo
09-04-2000, 05:11 AM
He charged $500 to rich celebrities. not civilians. Also, you say you walk 5,000 steps a day? that won't make you an expert kicker, but I bet you never fall sown when you're walking! Also He DID have a fight worth something. once he had a fight that determined whether or not he would close down his school or not.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Animenigma /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEGEND
09-06-2000, 08:59 AM
Scott I read your definition of a great fighter...here's mine...a great fighter is one that can FIGHT period! Bruce Lee was not a great instructor...in fact many of his students new that he was impatient and so forth...in terms of fighting...his brothers, his fellow wing chun classmates( WONG SHUN LEUNG, WILLIAM CHEUNG and HAWKIN CHEUNG ) has stated that Bruce won some and loss some...when Bruce came to USA he found out that he had to change his FIGHT GAME...especially against the stronger longer limbed AMERICANS! Guess what??? He picked up boxing and advocated CROSSTRAINING...if you done any research on JKD...and you didn't...you would have known JKD is not a STYLE...it's a philosophy of cross training and being individualized! I met many like YOU( SCOTT ) that heard it all from their wing chun sifus or whomever...and of course would reiterate...you can see if LEE was effective by sparring his students...they are his legacy now...do so and let us know what happens!!!

thekuntawman
09-07-2000, 12:08 AM
excuse me, but if i spar my students, i am going to look good. i dont remember any people outside bruce lee organisation who say he was such a great fighter.

and his students...who did _they_ fight? who says they are such a great fighter! did chris kent, lamar davis, jerry poteet and those guys get permission to teach bruce lee art? why are they teaching? because they get paid because they knew bruce lee and can say "i remember when bruce..." now if you make money off bruce lee name are you going to say "well, this one guy beat him up pretty good...i spar him sometime, i didnt think was that good...joe lweis kick his ass.." no! you will say "he was phenonemal! he was lightning quick! he was so strong!"

LEGEND
09-08-2000, 10:46 PM
the kuntawamna...well dude...you need to do some further research...there was an article by JUDO GENE LEBEL that stated BRUCE was simply the best at what he does...CHUCK NORRIS in his autobiography stated that BRUCE LEE was the most complete fighter at the time 60's! Joe Lewis feels that he could have KO Bruce Lee but felt that Bruce was a very capable street fighter. Hawkin's Cheung an old Bruce Lee classmate said BRUCE's GAME improve greatly after his return from the US. Joon Rhee has stated that Bruce punching power was DANGEROUS. These guys do not consider themselves BRUCE's student...they consider themselves training partners or equal or more! So question them...you probably need to read more..

Scott
09-10-2000, 02:59 AM
LOL some of you need to check back a little. First off, Bruce Lee was a great fighter. I agree with the people who have a passive attraction to Bruce Lee's work and think some of his ideas are good. They were.

Bruce Lee was by no means the end of all fighters. Some of you are actually claiming that Bruce Lee only knowing 2 Wing Chun sets and studying them for 5 years was FAR superior to a Wing Chun practicioner who studied all 6 sets for 10 - 15 years. This is ridiculous.

What Bruce Lee accomplished, he did so with his ONLY FORMAL TRAINING, WHICH WAS IMPRESSIVE. THIS IS WHY HE WAS A GOOD FIGHTER. What some of you Bruce Lee fanatics are claiming is that Bruce would have been better off if he had never trained in Wing Chun.

Some of you also need to understand his teachers. They were either Yip Man, or Yip Man's direct student. The way Yip Man taught was by teaching about 1 set every two years, so you had a VERY good understanding of the system. However, Bruce Lee's first two years he spent as a slacker. Later, he picked up his training. Still, Bruce Lee was not born with the knowledge of how to fight. Some of you need to recognize where ALL of his 'talent' came from. It came from his only FORMAL TRAINING, which was Wing Chun.


And now to defend my Sifu and the way that I'm taught Wing Chun, let be better explain, VingTsunStudent. We aren't taught sets in class. At the beginning of class we all do Sil Lim Tao (Those of us who can, the others watch), Chum Kiu (same as above), and then Biu Jee (again those of us who are able.) During this time we are corrected in our mistake. The rest of the 50 or so minutes is spent doing normal Wing Chun stuff (combat drills, sometimes sparring, Chi Sao, Chin Na, so on.) If we want ot learn sets, we buy the videos and learn them at home. Then at open gym time, or time we have with more advanced classmates, we spend reviewing what we know, perfecting it, and asking questions. There are no belts in my Wing Chun class, and no rushing or slowing graduation by having an assigned time at which one is considered an 'expert' at the system (I'm not going to say 'master'.) However, expected time to complete the class is 4 - 5 years. If you learned all the sets the first day, but practiced for 5 years; I don't see any difference in learning them as you go. It may even be beneficial; because you would be more familiar with the movements. I agree that the sets are nothing more than a bad pop music dance unless you know the application and intricacies of the system.

- Scott.

Scott
09-10-2000, 03:07 AM
"Bruce Lee's practice of JKD is actually closer to the way Wing Chun was MEANT to be used than virtually everyone else's authenticated Wing Chun. "

....
......
....
.....

Uhh...

Let me get this straight. You're saying that he practiced Wing Chun the right way, the way it was meant to be used.. Yet you use JKD.. why? Why not take Wing Chun and use it the way its meant to be used?

Thats like saying.. "I think I'll taking Boxing, and use it the way Wing Chun is supposed to be used."

- Scott.

Scott
09-10-2000, 03:14 AM
One more =P

Biu Jee is more advanced than Chum Kiu =P At least, in dificulty of the techniques. Based off what you're saying, Sil Lim Tao could be more advanced than Chum Kiu, because Sil Lim Tao teaches to defend some of the Chum Kiu techniques. Biu Jee teaches you what to do when you make a mistake while using Sil Lim Tao or Chum Kiu; how to cover and get back in charge of the centerline. That's more advanced than only knowing Chum Kiu, and not knowing how to recover the centerline. Unless of course you are the perfect fighter, like Bruce Lee must have been (since he didn't know Biu Jee or the recovery techniques therein.)

Yes, I know the Mook and staff and double butterfly knives are more advanced than Biu Jee.

Byerly_139
09-10-2000, 03:31 AM
In reply to vingtsunstudent's earlier message ("scott,if your teacher teaches the art this way although i'm sure it's great to learn at this pace it is of absolutly no use
to you as there is no way possible to have grasped or developed your basics sufficiently."
What in the world are you talking about going at a face pace will only be of "absolutely no use to you as there is no way possible to have grasped or developed your basics sufficiently." That is completely untrue, and if you don't believe me, start learning about ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is taught at an incredibly fast pace, faster than what pace Scott learned. Ninjutsu practioners and samurias were taught in this way. Samurais would go to school and learn everything the teacher would consider the best of his art in a matter of 2 or 3 days.

The pace of "ninjas" and samurais was to help them in this way, and I quote from Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's book, These warriors "would then go from place to place and put what [they] had learned into practice in contests and so on, until [they] had really grasped the *feel* and *sense* of the art deeply as part of himself. Thus, it was up to [them] to nurture and polish his own proficiency and understanding."

And if you doubt Iemoto Hatsumi's teaching methods and capabilities, bring it on vingtsunstudent (and anyone who agrees with him.)

HuangKaiVun
09-10-2000, 06:30 AM
I said "closer", which means that I didn't think Lee was the ideal WC exponent.

To me, the WC that he did do looks very good - better than what I've seen so far.

I haven't seen any of you or your sifus do WC, and I don't doubt any of your abilities in the least.

So when I make that claim about Lee's WC being better than what I've seen, you must understand that I'm speaking only from my LIMITED perspective.

Byerly_139
09-10-2000, 06:54 AM
Sorry, but I made a typo. Not face pace, Fast pace, there might be more, but I didn't see any.

vingtsunstudent
09-10-2000, 07:40 AM
well scott you talk about how long yip would take to teach students(which is incorrect anyway) & now you say it is fine to learn at such an excellerated pace-well you wrong if you think your basics will not be sadly lacking.we to have no gradings & for your information in 9 years all i have been shown is the first 2 forms & 8 sections of the dummy, i have chi sao'd with students from our lineage as well as others who have learnt a hell of a lot more forms than me & it meant ****, they had neither the understanding or basics to match it with someone who by rights was far less senior to them,in fact a friend of mine, whom with i train, was recently in hong kong & when the instructors found out how much of the system he knew compared to his knowledge & ability they were absolutly blown away(in fact many of them wanted to teach him the rest of the system right then & there)
also you were right in saying that one could actually consider the first form as the most advanced(just ask your instructor what he considers the most important form to be)
one more thing could you please explain what you mean by when you want to learn a new set you but the video?(surely you don't learn from videos)
now lets go to the ninja!
my friend you are a fool!
how long did it take you to learn how to disappear in a puff of smoke?
if you truely think every thing you said is true then you are not only a fool your a ****in wanker!
it is easy to sit there & issue challenges behind your ninja smoke screen that is your computer but no doubt when it comes to a fight you'll through down 1 of your smokey things & disappear up your own ass.
again you are just another dickhead who wants respect but will never get it because of your attitude, have a look around,as you are only a new member, & you will see that although a lot of us may disagree & even argue we don't just start issuing ***got arse challenges over petty things like the rate at which a system(that you are not even practicing)is taught.
if you want to challenge me it is because i'm telling you that you are a ****wit & that you're full of ****!(also that your ninja skills suck, why else would you have hide in shadows & attack from behind like a cowardise dog)
LOSER!
vts

vingtsunstudent
09-10-2000, 07:45 AM
sorry scott,
could you also give me your wing chun lineage, so i might better understand your pionts of view.
if you would like to know mine it is listed earlier in this post.
thanx
vts

Caleb TkD
09-10-2000, 04:11 PM
Hey guys. on just on the side. my uncle learned under yip man! Cool huh! now he has his own kung fu skool. cept the guy is really old

Byerly_139
09-10-2000, 05:08 PM
hmmm, vingtsunstudent whatever. I was only issuing a challenge of defense for the teaching speed of a ninja. Anywayz, who said that ninjas hide behind shadows and attack? Some may do, and probably in the earlier days, such as when ninjas were in high defense.

I may came off sounding like Iemoto teaches every student in 2 or 3 days. That is not what I meant to say, as it takes his students forever to truly become a 10th degree black belt, and I have never found a 15th degree blackbelt student of his, as he does allow students to go that high. But that doesn't mean he spends forever on techniques, oh no, in fact, its the time to develop the skills, and applying of the mind to higher levels of though, that took so long from what I heard.

Now back to "ninja's sucky skills," have you ever fought anyone who was at least a 5th degree blackbelt who has studied in the art of ninpo? If so, you would know the fact that they would have whipped up on you so badly. The leading ninjutsu, with highest order ninpo, system is called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which has 9 different martial arts in it. Try studying about the ninja, so far, I have only seen your stereotypes about the ninja, and you have only been listening to the completely wrong things, much like I did before I truly found out.

Anywayz, whos talking about hiding behind a computer, if you are thinking that way, you are too. Also, whos to consider a cowardly dog, in a true fight of defense everything goes isn't it. If you were to sneak up upon a ninja, and I doubt if you could, that person would probably consider it a fair fight. Ninjas also back them fought against deadly odds, I've heard of stories were 1 ninja had to take down 20 samurais. If those ninjas went down, they took along with them a devastating toll on the samurais. Sorry if I made you mad vingtsunstudent, I didn't mean for it to come off like that. Different systems can work at different speeds, and maybe that is the case that makes our opinions so different.

vingtsunstudent
09-10-2000, 05:42 PM
i am sorry but your defence as to learning things quickly still is invalid.
you stated that you would learn things quickly & then have to go off & master them yourself.
well if that is the case again i will say that you are learning things to quickly or are you going to tell me that all the best technics you will learn in 2-3 days or even 2 weeks for that matter will straight away be able to be used by you or anyone else for that matter( and i don't mean just half ass faked or anything, i mean you can already use them with precision)
I DON'T THINK SO.
you even said it yourself, after learning these skills they would go off & practice for years before they could use them well or again are you saying that the ninjas who would take on 20 samurais had only learnt the special technics they would use in just a few short days or even years for that matter.
I DON'T THINK SO.
no these people would have learnt basics & then developed their training from there.
the only reason to someone like you that it may have seemed excellerated, is the same as why the chinese systems used to learn at a quicker rate, it is because in the old days if you trained part-time it was at least 6 hrs a day & if you trained full-time you might as well at least double that figure.
one more thing, i have had a couple of dealings with ninja's & have generally found them to be quite funny guys to say the least, infact one of our ex-student is a ninjitsu instructor(and yes he came to learn empty hands stuff off me)well anyway i ran into this guy the other night & he is off to japan this week for a grading, the next time i run into him i'll ask him how long it takes to learn things in this odviously extremely quick to learn system.(maybe i am wrong & i will appologise, but i don't think i will have to-do you)
vts

LEGEND
09-11-2000, 12:53 AM
It's hard to say what Bruce Lee would have been like if he had lived...his peers like CHUCK NORRIS and JOE LEWIS felt Bruce was dropping most of his wing chun principles and adopting more of a KICKBOXING way of fighting! He still was very very loyal to CHINESE KUNG FU arts...
Bruce was not the best wing chun fighter...that title I believed goes to a senior student that helped trained him in WING CHUN...WONG SHUN LEUNG! In regards to Bruce Lee...he decided to venture off and do his own thing! Of course many disagree with him doing this and love to attack him...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Byerly_139
09-11-2000, 03:43 AM
Before you go asking him whatever question your going to ask, Ask him first what system he studies under. Also, I am not surprised that he is studying wing chun. It is a great art indeed, and of course no system is more dominant than all others. Iemoto Hatsumi I believe wanted his students to learn other martial arts, to make their art a true martial arts. I don't know why, but he does.

Also, The accelerated speed, it is quite fast, and I believe after 20 years of being called Iemoto, Hatsumi finally believed he had earned the rank of Iemoto. I believe ranks are given to people in this system of how much they are taught, not what they learn. I did not state that you would have to go learn it yourself also. I said samurais did that and ran from school to school. Students under Hatsumi would go to Japan to continue their training if they are out of the country. They stay their and further their training. Some of Hatsumi's best students claim that everyday, Hatsumi would teach them something new. I do not why Hatsumi does this, but please ask your friend. You do not learn quickly in this system I believe, but are taught quickly, and I will get back to this answer once I re-find the question in one of Hatsumi's books I have. We may have read eachother's notes and interpreted differently than what the other meant to write. I will be the first willing to apoligize that I made a few gramatically errors, and wrote as if someone who read my messages knew something about it as in depth as I did. If you were to correct me, I am thanking you in advance since I am only partially informed.

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 07:12 AM
Byerly_139
please if you don,t mind let me put a few of your earlier posts here & then you can tell me if you have contradicted yourself or if i have truely mistaken what you've said-

The pace of "ninjas" and samurais was to help them in this way, and I quote from Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's book, These warriors "would then go from place to place and put what [they] had learned into practice in contests and so on, until [they] had really grasped the *feel* and *sense* of the art deeply as part of himself. Thus, it was up to [them] to nurture and polish his own proficiency and understanding."

i am sorry maybe i should have said practice the technics(skills) themselves(again how long do you think it took them to nurture & polish his own prof. & understanding?)

Also, The accelerated speed, it is quite fast, and I believe after 20 years of being called Iemoto, Hatsumi finally believed he had earned the rank of Iemoto. I believe ranks are given to people in this system of how much they are taught, not what they learn. I did not state that you would have to go learn it yourself also.

i'm sorry i didn't know 20 years was fast?-vts

That is not what I meant to say, as it takes his students forever to truly become a 10th degree black belt, and I have never found a 15th degree blackbelt student of his, as he does allow students to go that high. But that doesn't mean he spends forever on techniques, oh no, in fact, its the time to develop the skills, and applying of the mind to higher levels of though, that took so long from what I heard.

again i don't mean to be rude but are you saying that they learn the technics & then don't pratice them anymore, instead they go & practice all these other skills & don't have to worry about the fighting technics that they learnt in an accelerated time?
vts
i am truely sorry as i know you have appologised,as do i but i just find it upsetting that you come into this forum-speak your mind, contradict yourself & mention words like so i heard.(as your reference)
when i speak of the fact that in wing chun you can not learn at this excellerated pace & have good basics, it comes from experience in the system.
vts

Scott
09-11-2000, 09:39 AM
VingTsunStudent, what I am trying to press is that learning the forms in a quicker or slower manner will probably not greatly effect your training if you keep at it for a long enough period of time. If you learn all the sets and then quit after a year or two, then yes, you're going to suck. But do you honestly think that if you knew Biu Jee, Mook, the Butterfly and Pole sets and had still been practicing for 9 years, you would be terrible?

Besides, technically, I assume that you already know the moves from Biu Jee and Mook just from practice drills. All Biu Jee is, is the moves put into a set. After 9 years, if you went through Biu Jee, you would probably realize that you already know 90% of the stuff in it. The set simply introduces it.

- Scott.

Dragon Spirit
09-11-2000, 11:18 AM
Alright man well let me first start off by saying that in my opinion, Bruce Lee is ONE of the strongest and greatest fighters of our time. Who knows if he was truly the greatst fighter ever. But thanks to him the martial arts is very popular in the states and he was one of my idels growing up, so without him I prolly wouldn't be as into the arts as I am right now. In fact maybe I would have never even started training! It was his lifestyle and his carrer... he was extremely devoted to the arts and he deserves all the respect in the world, this is fact. So your wrong about him not being devoted, nobody trained as hard as him. Think what u want, but he was truly one of the greatest of fighters ever known and a very skillful martial artist. His fighting style (JKD)... in my opinion, is also probebly thee best style ever created because it adapts to the person praticeing it, and allows the praticioner to make what he or she wants the style to be. The style literally adapts to u, I donno, this is just my opinion, but u should do a little more research on Bruce Lee my friend, you could learn alot.

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 02:13 PM
scott you are very correct in your thinking as concerned with your last post, except i still believe that if you learn at this advanced rate you can become confused with technics from different forms & more importantly you can develop bad habits in the forms because you don't fully understand them or their technicalities yet.
please believe me when i say that sometimes i wish i was learning things faster but really whats the good of knowing something you can't fully use, understand or appreciate.
besides all that, wait until you do develop a bad habit & then see how much of a ***** it is to try & fix it.
a bad habit that can take you one day of practice at home can take weeks if not months to completly correct.
the last thing i would like to say on this is that if you are happy learning at this pace then so be it but you'll probably get very upset sometime when you chi sao with someone from another school, who technically knows less than you, but wipes the floor with you because they have spent more time on practicing the basics.
sorry again but that's just my opinion.
vts

Byerly_139
09-11-2000, 04:54 PM
Where exactly did I contradict myself? I have said time and time again they are taught at an accelerated speed. If you knew how much Iemoto learn, then you can judge how fast is 20 years. Iemoto has learned 9 different martial arts under his grandmaster. Each of these martial arts that he learned had a great deal of techniques that took a while to master each of them too. What took 20 years could of been slowed down to that point because the man was also very sick when he became Iemoto.

As they learn new techniques also, they are also practicing their old ones in sparring, to what I believe helps polish their skills in new outcomes everyday. They never forget their skills, I am sorry for the confusion that may have come across.

One more thing from an earlier post; If you knew a ninja yourself, why in the world did you come off mocking the ninja with the completely wrong stereotypes?

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 06:13 PM
all i will say is that i am sorry for doubting any of you- the mistake i made was in that i thought when you learnt something you did your homework until you remembered it forever, but seeing as though this is not the case i will offer my deepest appologise.
i am sorry i said what i did about the ninjas, i guess i've just whatched maybe 1 to many movies either that or i was just upset by your initial posting about a system that has nothing to do with ninjitsu(again if this is the way you like to learn then live,love & enjoy)
also i am sorry scott as i am sure that your teacher would not teach at this rate if he did not think it correct.i am sure that you will win countless battles with your new found love of wing chun.
vts

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 06:18 PM
ps Byerly_139 if i said that i was just lying & you were deceived by my statement,
would this make me a good ninja?(the art of trickery)
JUST JOSHIN' LOL LOL LOL LOL(whoops i think i just wet myself)
vts

Byerly_139
09-12-2000, 03:04 AM
Thats cool, as long in the end were having a good spirit about this and not be burned out. I also reacted to quickly with the wrong spirit about things. Could you tell me the name of your ninjutsu instructor friend? I might of heard about him through my reading. Thanks. And oh yeah, Is their a martial arts called ninjItsu? I heard of ninjUtsu, but have only seen ninjItsu a few times, and wondering if it is a typo.

Scott
09-12-2000, 04:20 AM
VingTsunStudent, I partially agree, except that I would never feel I hadn't learned well if a student had been in Wing Chun longer than me, regardless of how many forms he knows. I know you could defeat me in Wing Chun, even though I might know about half a hand form more than you, because you've been doing it about 8 years longer than me. Time definetly is more important that knowing sets =)

- Scott.

Little Wing
09-12-2000, 08:36 PM
Jeet Kune Do, like kung fu, is a way of life, and a means of protecting ones self. Bruce Lee should be remembered because of his philosophy, not because of his jump kicks. He revealed something very personal about himself to us, (his way of looking at life or other words, Jeet Kune Do), and for that we should all be thankful.

------------------

09-20-2000, 07:40 PM
Find out the truth about Bruce Lee. Contains photos, letters, and information never published before. This free offer is limited. Hurry. No Strings Attached!

null

origenx
09-20-2000, 08:09 PM
One thing's for sure - it's not very fair to judge a dead person who can't answer for himself. Also, judging historical figures from a modern perspective is rather unfair.

The Iceman
09-24-2000, 06:55 AM
As for Bruce Lee and Wing Chun I quote Grandmaster William Cheung who said that
Bruce Lee knew more about Wing Chun than
people teahing it.And he should know he
taught him

HuangKaiVun
10-01-2000, 09:12 AM
Looks like Cheung is saying basically the same thing I did in my earlier post.

3BladesFighter
10-02-2000, 03:49 AM
How foolish can you be Scott? Disrespecting a man who pushed the limits and even abused his body to gain the form he was so sure was incomplete, though his muscles were able to be envied? He is dead now, and you still taunt at his 'failures'? if anything, bruce was the most amazing human i've heard of. it doesn't matter how many forms of styles he learned, but he developed from them, making them to be what he HOPED to be the 'perfect style', before he met his demise. by the way, fool, he studied nearly every art and took what he thought was useful and developed from there.

Fullness is achieved only when one has truly earned it

fish
10-25-2000, 02:10 PM
Bruce did not bring his jeet kune do to america, as far as i know, he created in the us afte beating Wong (or his students), becauase of the effectivness and time that it took to beat him. He wasn't satisfied with the finishing technique.

fish

rogue
10-26-2000, 05:22 AM
I don't think Lee "studied" too many arts. He sampled many and took the most obvious useful techniques from them but that's different than really studying an art.

I used to be daga

origenx
10-27-2000, 11:02 PM
Remember, forms are just a means to an end. If you already got to the end, who gives a f*ck about the means?

YoungForest
11-01-2000, 04:29 PM
What i feel about bruce is that He was a martial artist and not a fighter.

The reason why people were so hyped up on him was that there weren't any real fighters or martial artists in America when he came.

You had chucky, and he sucked..
That's why people were so amazed


Here is a young asian 'kung fu master' and he's doing some flashy things and showing people this new way to fight..

That's what amazed people the most, not cause of his amazingly brutal skills or his crazy kicks or punches...

It was new..

fish
11-04-2000, 11:07 AM
bruce was actuallt sent to the us, because he wouldn't stp testing his wing chun in street fighting. he was also very respected at this college in seatle, beacuse he was always beating up people who didn't like him...true story

fish

jojitsu27
11-05-2000, 06:05 PM
What I can agree with this guy, is that Bruce Lee was NOT a fighter but a movie star.
So he developed his own martial theories and style, so what? People do that all the time.
-jojitsu27

3BladesFighter
11-13-2000, 02:40 PM
Y'know, i've held my cool for a very long while, but some have angered me so much...LOOK, BRUCE WAS NOT A MOVIE STAR OVER A FIGHTER, HE WAS A MARTIAL ARTIST/FIGHTER OVER EVERYTHING, EVEN HUMAN. YOU STILL TRY TO DISGRACE HIM, THOUGH. WELL, YOU'RE A ******* MORE THAN A FIGHTER, JOJITSU27...forgive me for my rudeness...you may now go back to your regular scheduled program...hahaha

Fullness is achieved only when one has truly earned it

reemul
11-14-2000, 05:41 AM
If Bruce was a fighter above all else how come his only fight with a reputable fighter was with Wong?
Bruce has never faced off against a champion fighter other than this one time. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan, but get real. I not saying he couldn't fight, but the extent of his ability is only speculation.

jojitsu27
11-16-2000, 03:35 PM
Bruce hurt his hands hitting the back of Wong's head, so he decided overnight that Wing Chun was innefective. That was said in his own words in an interview with Black Belt Magazine.
So, Bruce is a movie star, who had one eyewitnessed fight in his entire life and then gave up on Kung Fu training because it didn't go the way he wanted it to. Instead he made up his own style of fighting, a medely of techniques from other styles strung together with his philosophical tidbits, and then died before he could test this new style like he tested his Kung Fu.
That's Bruce Lee in a nutshell.
-jojitsu27

HuangKaiVun
11-30-2000, 06:25 PM
Bruce Lee knew better than to fight people after a while.

Unlike the picture of the scowling hellraiser he depicted in his movies, Lee was very different in private according to his associates.

They (e.g. Bob Wall) paint the picture of a modest and quiet Lee who went out of his way to avoid all the conflicts that arose due to his movie notoriety.

Besides, it is well known that Bruce Lee regularly had to fend off such challenges, though they were almost never publicized.

If you think about it, what good would his beating someone up do him? They could sue for large sums of money, and still others would clamor to fight him ("I beat Bruce Lee!")

Bruce Lee constantly sought to expand his horizons by crosstraining. He studied the videos of Dempsey, bumped heads with karateka, had a huge library of old-school fighting texts (wrestling and otherwise), and constantly tested his art against the finest martial artists of his day (Norris, Rhee, Wall, Kelly, etc. . .)

Anybody who crosstrains like this can hardly be called an "actor" as opposed to a "martial artist". Only a low-level practitioner is incapable of seeing this.

So the notion that Lee died before he could "test this new style" is completely ridiculous - especially when we have an ENTIRE FORUM filled with martial artists who practice his style day in and day out.

Putting Bruce Lee in a nutshell is like saying "The ocean fits in a cup".

[This message was edited by HuangKaiVun on 12-01-00 at 11:31 AM.]

RokKyu
12-02-2000, 12:25 AM
Bruce Lee may or may not have learned all of Wing Chun.....but that really doesn't matter. Bruce Lee was one of the handful of Gung Fu martial artist to actually come to America and teach people of all color. Bruce Lee won every fight (excluding childhood as i have not read on this) in his adulthood. Bruce Lee was a mega movie star, if it wasn't for him, Kung Fu would be like so many other arts...on the verge of "death". Bruce Lee was one of the greatest philosophers (in my opinion). Bruce Lee has been called arrogant.....many times the truth is mistaken to be arrogance. You can bash bruce Lee all you want to....it's really easy to talk trash after the man is dead....but i'd bet 1,000,000 (this is a metaphor....i'm broke) if he were in your face right now......you'd have wet pants. Bruce Lee trained hard and fought often........he reaped everything he sowed....jealousy the mark of an ignorant man........As Bruce Lee would say "Walk On"-Rok Ky

cha kuen
01-01-2001, 07:14 PM
Bruce cannot be the greatest philosopher because everything he said he got from chinese philosophy books.

HuangKaiVun
01-02-2001, 07:29 PM
Where did Bruce Lee claim to be the "greatest" anything?

Little_Dragon
01-19-2001, 03:04 AM
this is a cut and dry answere bruce lee is the best ma'ist. u other people my not think so but this is my opinion, i thought this because he is the most entertaing, no one on earth that comes to mind can match any of his skill and if im wronh im sorry but it is true he has speed, agility, etc.... he has it all....

he is the best

SilentShadow
02-01-2001, 05:29 AM
*Laughing*

Does anyone here actually think that they are going to change the opinions of one another? Does anyone here stand to gain anything but pride from winning this argument(though I doubt the possibility of that=)? You guys should stop arguing and go practice your kung fu, because it isn't talking that makes a great fighter, it's practice.

Peace :cool:

[This message was edited by SilentShadow on 02-01-01 at 08:41 PM.]

02-02-2001, 04:01 AM
Scott,

As a new student of JKD you sound to me to be a person who is set in your ways. Your arguements against Bruce seem to be very hostile as if you have some personal reason to dislike him. I do not mean to draw a false conclusion but I think you are jealous of his accomplishments and will do anything you can to make Bruce seem smaller. Your arguements against Bruce Lee are very insignificant. What he did was more than just make up a new form of martial arts to gain fame. He took a huge risk by going against centuries of tradition to fashion, from different arts which contained certain elements, a form which was effecient, practical, and 100% effective. You argue that Bruce was a slacker, and not really that great of a fighter. I do not claim do be any authority on the work ethic of Bruce Lee, not having known him, but how can you say that he's not that great of a fighter? If there are not documented fights of him, there is no evidence to prove (or disprove) this conjecture. But since he did create a revolutionary martial art, I think that the scales tip in his favor.

LEGEND
02-12-2001, 12:08 AM
Scott is only 14 dude!

A

Daedalus
02-12-2001, 11:40 PM
Nothing that I've ever read that was written by Bruce Lee even hinted that he thought of himself as a master. He thought of himself as the ultimate student. However, the title of "master" did fit him as was obvious by the numbers of people ( some very high ranking martial artists) who bestowed upon him (unofficially of course)the title. Many other martial artists (Wally Jay, Ed Parker, James Lee, George Dillman, and the list goes on) referred to Bruce Lee as a master. Not because he told them to, but rather out of respect for his ability and vast knowledge.

And what is this "lineage" stuff? Why are kung fu guys so caught up in "whats your lineage"?

HuangKaiVun
02-19-2001, 07:11 PM
Because without lineage, neither you nor I would have had the opportunity to learn about CMAs.

Your moves in Isshin Ryu and JKD came from prior teachers, and those teachers learned their art from prior teachers.

Bruce Lee was a great example of this.

Had Yip Man recognized Lee as his legitimate successor, Lee surely would've had the experience and skill in WC to go with the title.

This is why Bruce Lee sought to get around his his incomplete WC training - by seeking out other "masters" in old manuals, videos, sparring partners, etc . . .

One thing is for sure. If Lee had had the experience and training to have been recognized as a "legitimate" WC disciple, there may never have been "JKD".

This is why lineage is so important. One should know where he comes from.

rogue
02-19-2001, 11:16 PM
I agree with your statement about if Lee had mastered WC there'd probably not be any JKD, and it helps prove my point of why Inosanto is the MA that Lee wished he could have been.

HuangKaiVun
02-21-2001, 01:05 AM
Where did you read/see/hear that Bruce Lee wanted to be like ANYTHING, rogue?

Ryu
02-22-2001, 10:00 AM
Haha! This thread was funny. :)
I like Bruce because he was a dream chaser, and he caught them. I hope I can do the same.
Who cares if he was a good fighter? LOL

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

Vankuen
03-11-2001, 11:07 AM
You know, I seriously doubt if any of you really know anything about Bruce Lee first hand. Most of whom are posting here (including myself) weren't even born till after Bruce Lee died.

The ones that were old enough to have even seen him probably havent. Probably never spoke to him, sparred with him, or even had any inkling of relationship to him other than what you have read or seen on TV.

Heres the general truths that we can see from Bruces life: Bruce Lee made a big impact on the martial arts here in america and china, many good, some bad depending on who you talk to.
The impressions he has made will undoubtedly last for many more decades. His ideas although not "new", was something that needed to be addressed again, and wouldve been by someone else had Bruce not done it, as history is proven to repeat itself.

Cmon guys, the guys dead. Let him, and his legacy rest in peace. Just be the best martial artists you can be and dont worry about things that really have no bearing on your personal reality. Its trivial nonsense like this what will inevitably ruin you as a martial artist. I know that alot of the people on here posting are rather intelligent, but lets not feed this thread with anymore waste of existence. Its getting old reading the thoughts of things that can only make us feel more stupid for having read it.

Just train hard and explore the possibilities.

jun19fan40
03-13-2001, 12:11 AM
sotty have u read much about bruce ?? cause it sounds like u read a page about him and assumed a great deal. nothing he did speacial u say he did an arial kick through like 5 hanging boards enough to impress jhoon rhee and jhoon rhee said he was an excelent fighter. And in yip chuns wing chun book it says that bruce lee never stopped learning wing chun ...............

Internal Boxer
04-08-2001, 08:50 PM
Scott, how can you even begin to question if Bruce Lee was a good fighter or not. The man is dead. Did you ever fight him? if the answer is no then you are not in a postion to deride the late Bruce. If anyone you know has beaten up Bruce then I suggest you get them to post the facts relating to the fight they had with him. Because you have no authority on this subject your argument is purely based on hearsay. By the way competition fighting is not real fighting, real fighting involves no rules with the attacker wanting to kill you.
So do not disrespect other people you have never met and have not had any contact with!

Destrous9
04-20-2001, 10:16 PM
Bruce worked hard for his success. A oriental movie start in America in the late 60's, early 70's is no little achievement.

Whether or not he is the world's greatest fighter, he did achieve alot, and has impacted most on this board in some way.

Look at the good that comes from a man. Don't focus on the negative.

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."

Johnny Hot Shot
04-22-2001, 05:52 PM
A punch is a punch a kick is a kick. The more you practice the better they become. Bruce Lee practiced all the time.

Troy
05-09-2001, 12:14 PM
how can you say bruce lee was the greatest fighter in the world.. he learnt wing chun for two years and derived his own system from the knowledge he gained there.. what about bruces sifu and bruces teachers and bruces senior students who had 20 years practice on him.. bruce was better than them yeh im sure

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-