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morrigan
03-24-2001, 12:32 PM
Hello everybody :)

Since I'm new to the forum and to the practice of Kung Fu, I'll introduce myself with a question (more will come) that's been bothering me. The thing is: I train the Ton Long style at a school here in Brasil which doesn't teach Qi Gong (at least until one gets to the black belt).

I bought books on Qi Gong and managed to know the basics, but it's hard to go on without a master to point me some directions.

I see most people here at the forum have some kind of combined training: Qi Gong+Kung Fu - and one seems to "complete" the other.

My question(s): Is it usual to begin the Qi Gong only when you're advanced at Kung Fu? If yes, why? If no, should I urgently look for another KF school? What am I loosing by not learning Qi Gong properly (right at the begining) in my KF practice?

I'd apreciate advices!
Thanx

o
03-24-2001, 09:02 PM
From what I see, there are two different approaches in the training of qigong (Chi Kung) and kungfu. One is the method common in Shaolin kungfu. That is, one practices the martial aspect without any qi work for some years before ever advancing to the qigong part. And when one gets that far, the qi work is incorporated within the martial training (I think).

The other approach I've seen is with the Tai Chi (along with Bagua and Xingyi--the 3 main internal martial arts schools). I think alternate spellings are used for those schools. Anyway, with Tai Chi Chuan, one starts right away or soon after the start with the qi work (I think).

Sorry, but I don't know which one of these methods is better.

Just a note regarding practice of qigong and/or kungfu (or martial arts): You can practice them in the following ways:
1) Kungfu without any qigong incorporated within the system
2) Kungfu with qigong incorporated within the system (whether the qigong aspect starts at the beginning or after years of practice)
3) Qigong without any martial aspect
4) numbers 1 and 3 combined and practiced separately

I hope this helped

o
03-24-2001, 10:31 PM
Numbers 2 and 3 (from the above post) should not be practiced together: They are incompatible. The reason being, one should not practice 2 different types of qigong at the same time. You can damage yourself internally. Just stick to one type and definitely practice under a good teacher and you'll be safe.

GLW
03-24-2001, 11:38 PM
o,

you are MOSTLY right...

You CAN practice two methods of Qi gong provided they are complimentary. For example, Zhan Zhuang (standing Post) and Ba Duan Jin would be compatible. Still meditation and 18 Liangong postures would be workable.

However, if you are doing two methods that are incompatible, such as one type that tonifies a certain organ system and another that tends to cool down that same organ system, the best you can hope for is no results and the worst is really bad.

In short, if you mix things, you have to have a qualified teacher or already be an expert.

Qiman
03-25-2001, 02:38 AM
Morrigan, Talk to your sifu and let him/her know how interested you are in learning. I had this sifu once who was a Hong Kong sparing and forms champion. He did very little Qigong and didn't teach us any at all. On the other hand, one of the other sifus was just ok at forms but had very good internal strength. He taught the Qigong. Explore your school first before jumping ship.

joedoe
03-25-2001, 02:56 AM
Quite often you are practising Qigong without even knowing it :)

Some styles may not teach Qigong as a seperate thing, but it is an integral part of the forms.

Just my $0.02 worth

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

morrigan
03-25-2001, 05:26 PM
Thank you all for the advice!

o and GLW: I had NO idea that practicing different kinds of chikung could actually cause damage! The chikung I'll possibly learn when I get to the black belt is the combat chikung (don't know the name). And the one I was trying to catch the basics on is the Wudang Chikung (guess it's the healing chikung). What a risky practice!

Qiman: I have two sifus who teach different styles (both shaolin based), choy lay fut and ton long (my style), at the school. The first one is a rock because of the combat/strenghth chikung, but he never talks about it. The other is an acupuncturist and he knows all the energetic points in the human body (he is this "wow-where-did-the-pain-in-my-arm-go?" kinda guy) but he never talks about that either. Anyway, they're very nice people, so surely I could try your strategy and just let them know of my interest. This other Sifu, he taught you Chikung in separate from the KF classes?

ABandit: "Quite often you are practising Qigong without even knowing it" Really?!?!
"Some styles may not teach Qigong as a seperate thing, but it is an integral part of the forms". Come to think of that, I remember that during some classes, when we're learning katis, they usually give us hints on how we should breathe. That's it, isn't it? Great!

My new course of action: Talking to the Sifus about Chikung/Qigong and quitting my home practices until I'm sure they won't be in conflict with my masters' Chikung (though I intend to go on with meditation practices).

You've helped a lot!

joedoe
03-26-2001, 12:38 AM
morrigan, yes that is what I am referring to. The breathing you are taught in your forms is Qigong.

Someone once asked my sifu to teach him Qigong. My sifu took him outside and told him to take a few deep breaths. Then he told him that he had learned Qigong :)

Glad to hear someone has actually gotten something out of this forum :)

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

morrigan
03-26-2001, 02:49 PM
I sense bitterness in your words despite the smilie... I´m glad to say that just by reading the threads I´ve learned lots of stuff... Including the fact that Not all martial artists are as wise people as you guys who answered me so clearly... So many freaks out there! It´s embarassing...

joedoe
03-27-2001, 05:16 AM
No bitterness, just a little annoyance that most threads seem to get filled up with people throwing out challenges or just idiots trolling. It is nice to find the occasional thread where constructive conversation occurs.

So much of what goes on in the forum is about who's style is best etc. etc. etc. Get's a little boring sometimes when all you hear is people carrying on about how they can kick everyone else's arses. A lot of boasting, very little discussion sometimes :).

Having said that, the forum is a great place to find out new stuff.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

fiercest tiger
03-31-2001, 06:51 AM
dont beleive him abandit is THE troll of trolls, just kidding!

i like the couple of breaths chi kung!! hehe

my sifu would say all hard kung fu is still chi kung and if you want it to be more internal just do it softer and with more concertration! :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

morrigan
03-31-2001, 02:15 PM
Y'know, tiger, the thing on hard KF being Chikung is exactly what I found out when I asked one of my Sifus, yesterday.
He told me I could accelerate the process of enhancing internal internal energy with the breathing techniques, but training hard has the same result in the end!
Glad to have another point of view! :)

Well, people like Abandit always make a compensation for the bulls*#t posted by trolls. Wiseness vs stupidity (and let's hope the wise win)!!

joedoe
03-31-2001, 02:30 PM
Awwwwww shucks morrigan. That's so nice of you to say that, but in reality I am a smart arse wanker with no idea about what wisdom is :).

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

prana
05-16-2001, 06:31 AM
kungfu is matter over mind. Improvement of nadi leads to unison of the 5 elements.

Chi Gong is training the mind and so mind over matter.

Indifferentiable, they all lead to the same place.

What is occupying that corpse you call 'I' ?

honorisc
06-01-2001, 07:59 PM
Indifferentiable, they all lead to the same place.

Get to Heaven by going through Hel; or thay the way with clear skies and clouds? There might be a difference. It has been said to be the journey that matters. ...It is the journey, not the destination...

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

origenx
06-03-2001, 07:46 PM
prana - u r kool! U seem to know a diaperload about yoga theory. Do u have a master and how old r u?

prana
06-04-2001, 08:17 AM
originex

I am a really boring person in real life, with my fat share of bad kamma and conditioning...

I really don't know that much about yoga, I am just lucky to be walking the path of the Buddhist tradition almost all my life, in one way or another. When I find out something during my meditation, I wish the whole world to experience it too...I do like meditating. As my friends would know, I moved from the physical exercises of Martial Arts to sitting cross legged...

One thing I found was after meditation, you can't help but spread these benefits hoping, someone else can share the benefits as well.

I have had a few very good masters, but one who has touched me most has returned to Tibet with Parkinsons disease, and yet he has verbally thought me the least, don't know if you understand what I mean. Though I am not his disciple or student, but the seed of Dhamma grows.

Buddhist always say, the greatest gift of all is a tiny seed, a thought on the Dhamma path. After all, we are all the same.

What is occupying that corpse you call 'I' ?

origenx
06-04-2001, 07:16 PM
prana - so, how do we get rid of bad karma that is already in our bodies, causing us to sufer imperfect health?

Like, did your Tibetan teacher get Parkinson's due to bad karma? And if so, if such a high master as himself could not rid himself of such karma/disease, how can average folk like us?

prana
06-05-2001, 01:42 AM
originex,

There is one law in life that is universal, IMPERMANENCE. There is a difference between me and the Tibetan monk. Even with Parkinson's disease, he was not showing signs of suffering, but the one mindedness to walk. When I picked him up off the street after seeing him walk a long way to ask if I could offer a lift, to find out his destination was home to Tibet. And with that thought, I became one of the stepping stones for his journey home (which he thought he could have done just by walking!). In this way, he presented a great opportunityfor me to eradicate some of my kamma... and gained the greater seed of dhamma for myself.

This is where the Wisdom transcends beyond my understanding, but many a great masters will tell you, do not lose faith just because a master yells out "Ouch!" for neither the "Ouch" nor the human form of the master, is real. How you perceive your master, is a mirror of your own faith and devotion towards your master and yourself ultimately.

To answer your first question. It reminds me of a story told in many a Buddhist literatures. (Any difference in my story to the real story is purely a fault of mine and this lends to all the other things I have said on this forum as well)

Ananda went to Buddha for guidance. Buddha tied a knot in a silken handkerchief and asked Anada what he saw. He said, a knot of a handkerchief.

Buddha then proceeded to tie more knots, and asked the same question, to which Ananda replied, "Knots on a handkerchief".

Buddha then proceeded to undo the knot by pulling the knots at random ends making the knots tighter and tighter. He then asked Ananda, why can't I undo the knots... for which Ananda replied "There is an order by which the knots are done and should be undone in the reverse order"

The same holds for our Nadi system, which has been tiwsted and conditioned by impure Kamma. The same way, we should understand the cause of our Kamma and untie them in the order.

Of course, being a human being, and attached to the grosser element of earth, it is usually the Attachment and Hatred of some kind, or Jealousy or Doubt, and of course, ignorance... these poisons for which Buddha had subscribed the Dhamma for us, the medicine to untie the knots.

However, it is up to us to walk the path and untie our own knots.

I hope I have made as little mistakes as possible to answering these questions. I hope you are "driven" by the things I've said, but I am not a teacher nor an accomplished Yogin by any means, I just want to spread the seed of Dhamma. But if you wish to learn more of Buddhism, without the risk of this medium that can arise many misunderstandings, you should seek a teacher that you feel devoted too.

He may even be spiritual, so long as you have faith and with the Boddhisattva's vow to achieve enlightenment to help all other suffering beings.

What is occupying that corpse you call 'I' ?