View Full Version : Your life story

09-29-2001, 02:40 PM
There are many very spiritually charged people here. It could be interesting to find out what are the histories behind these people ? What special lessons have one learnt, or think is beneficial to share, and how it applies in their current lives....

09-29-2001, 06:16 PM
Sorry I tried, but just couldn't resist. :p

All I've learned is that I really don't know anything. Even if I think I know something I'm usually wrong or misunderstood.

"Pain is only natures way of telling you're in terrible agony"

Repulsive Monkey
09-29-2001, 09:52 PM
The lessons that I'm still trying to get to grips with are from Jesus Christ, Gautama Buddha, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa and others : to Love, and to do it un-conditionally. From Taiji perspective: RELAX, "Invest in loss"(this one I feel has infinte layers to it), and to relax even more. These pretty much come from Cheng Man-ching, My Tai Chi master, Elizabeth K. Ross and others.

09-29-2001, 10:41 PM
that reminds me of something i was thinking about the other day...

from watching people and myself i noticed that people are inherently selfish; some walk around doing whats best for them immediately, which usually ends up hurting others... some other people are a little wiser and realize that through helping others they help themselves - they have a broader focus, but are still selfish (just like me!)

what i would like to do is break away from that selfishness and just be able to help :)

as to pranas question, i'd just like to figure things out


Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

09-30-2001, 01:31 AM
I've learned that in this beautiful world that we live in, us humans make it ugly, with our greed, selfishness, uncompationite actions, hunger for domination over others, materialism, etc, etc, etc... We were given free wills and the knowledge of heaven and earth and instead of cherishing the glorious gift we were given we took it and ruined ourselves and everything we touch.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen."

09-30-2001, 11:20 AM
I have one.

Realisations that you attained in a meditational session, are like dreams when the mind is back to the human world. It highlights "change" so perfectly, so quickly.

Oh oh and another one, language is such a great tool, unfortunately, too many human beings cannot see pass its limitations. eg we definte the colour blue in accordance with our own experience (receptors etc)

oh oh and another one. Someone experiencing emptiness says "Meditation is a hindrance to progress" it is silly for another person to take these words as an excuse to not meditate.

In meditation, they say "focus". When they say focus, it is focus and yet it isn't focus. You merely sitting "a" thought.

hehehe :)

10-01-2001, 07:01 PM
The first chapter of the Tao Te Ching explains the concept of Ch'an (Zen): words are no substitute for reality (an actual thing or experience). They can only be fingers pointing at the moon. And so the Ch'an teaching method's ultimate goal is to re-create or produce that experience within the student. Words or traditional teaching methods are only one means to that end. But if an unorthodox bizarre action or question (koan) can spark that experience, then it equally as useful or valid. By whatever means necessary. And this becomes increasingly necessary when trying to teach a student increasingly subtle movements, feelings or thoughts (like in internal martial arts or meditation) that they can't follow by watching alone. So it is a teaching method that does not limit itself to and may transcend the 5 mundane senses and linear thought.

So, Ch'an (Zen) Buddhism is really Taoist Buddhism. :cool:
Taijiquan is the physical expression of the philosophy of Taoism. :cool:

10-02-2001, 02:00 AM

excellent ! excellent ! Here is an extra twist to the theme. It is also know that to understand the moon, all one need is to understand the finger that points.

Spun out yet ? hehehee


10-02-2001, 03:39 AM
Ahh this is it! Prana, how curious you are, amazing :)

It is indeed so true that you can judge a person by their questions far more then you can by their answers, and this topic is one in which you have asked a great question!

Let me begin by explaining that it is commonly found by myself that the ego is the interpreter of realization, whereas, it attempts to put an explanation and a fine point definition to what I have experienced. In this, I came to the realization that experience exists in the moment.
That to live in the experiences of the past is to live a life that is not even your own, it is to live as a person you no longer are.

But, amongst that, we must explain to ourself, at least in the beginning, so that we can move forward, grasping onto one explanation and seeking another, like a rock rolling up a hill into the heavens. Always seeking to climb higher, and when asked where it is we stand, we describe our rolling (which is truly us in constant motion) as something in stillness, so that we can give and gain an understanding for where it is we are upon that hill.

Lets see.. I have found that the realization that one can truly be full of love and compassion for people at all times is possible. In all honesty, I found that it is the easiest way to live your life. The most difficult things I have found in my learning is maintaining focus and finding my center. By finding my center, I mean relaxing into my being, because it is truly when I am relaxed that I am whole, as it is when I feel like I am nothing that indeed I am all things.

When I reflect on the past, there was a point in which I discovered the self-concept (Ego). It was an amazing point for me, and it encouraged me to change the way I was living my life. In fact, now it feels like I am 180 degrees from then, but to honest with you, who I am right now is 180 degrees from who I was when I began writing this message :)

The realization that the true reason why it is easy to be loving and compassionate is because in showing compassion to others, you are showing compassion to yourself. The ego is an illusion, the self-concept an illusion.

It is slowly created, starting at the age of 6months-2years of age, and is formed by the way people around you interact with you. They treat you as if you are a seperate entity, and in doing that you begin to feel as one. The scary idea is that who you are and your ego's scripting was written before you even had a choice. By the time I was five years old, the interactions I had prior to that time had already manifested my identity.

Another interesting thought prana is the often feeling that one might wish to change course. It is that rising temptation that speaks ever so clearly when it does speak that says, 'Maybe you are just wasting your time no? Maybe you should just fulfill the ego's desires in this life and play the spiritual role in the next'. It is a feeling I have gotten that in itself is saying that you are indeed walking a different path then most. In this time in the world, it is difficult, and it is easier to blend in with the crowd then to wear a red hat in a city of black. When this does arises, I have found it is most comfortable to redirect my focus into meditation, and in that I find relaxation and a comfort in just being myself.

And the Tao.. And the Zen.. I wonder what I thought and when...

It all seems fun and wordy, fancy this and fancy that.. You wonder of all those whom claim their faith in taoism and buddhism, how many do it so for the purpose of being a taoist or being a buddhist? And if the Tao Te Ching were not the Taoist Bible but were rather interpreted as a guide into that which 'you' are, then would it not be more clear?

I have felt many times when someone asks me, What Religion are you? Or what are your beliefs? To point them at the Tao Te Ching or tell them to go learn a little bit about Buddha. But then of course, if you see the Tao Te Ching it is indeed saying that the true sage always stops to listen to someone who is sincere. And so with that the realization came that in just being, I am doing, and in just doing, I am being.

Thats one version. If I were to write it over though, I would write it completely different.

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 05:26 AM

I agree with you it seems that all actions are a result of self-centered motivation; however thinkers generally agree that some actions are more altruistic than others. Actions that benefit others outwardly often benefit the actor only inwardly. The reward being a good feeling knowing that you have had the opportunity to aid another. To act completely selflessly one must act without concern for the consequences of one’s actions. The Tao Te Ching illustrates this point in Section #34 when it states that,

The Tao pervades all things…
It is the source of all things …
It accomplishes all things, but does not own them…
It sustains all things, but does not lord it over them or take the credit…
All things come from the Tao, are sustained, and return to it never having knowledge of the Tao’s governing influence…
Because it does not claim greatness it is called Great…

The Superior man follows this example and achieves great things without considering himself great. (Paraphrasing is mine.)

An action performed because it is the correct action under the circumstances and not for accolades or credit is as close to selfless as one can come.


There is indeed much in human nature to be ashamed of, but there is just as much to be proud of. Humans have not decimated each other or the earth nor have we done irreparable damage. Materialism has caused much damage to the human spirit and the planet, yet most of the greatest acts of charity in the 20th century came about because materialism created an abundance of goods that have been shared. Materialism has created an abundance of knowledge that has led to a higher standard of living in most of the world. It has created medicines and treatments for diseases that have plagued mankind for millennia. Materialism has created the opportunity for creative minds to express themselves in the greatest variety of media in history. The world has the highest literacy rate then ever before, there is more knowledge readily available than ever in the history of man. Certainly we are not living in the Garden of Eden and there is much improvement necessary, however it is not as bleak as some believe. There is more compassion being expressed than most of us are aware of; there is a great deal less selfishness than some suppose. There are more people that want to live and let live than seek to dominate others. If humans ruined everything we touched there would be no joy in the world at all.

Life is experienced as we chose to perceive it. If we focus on the bad that is what we will perceive and we will tend to miss the greater amounts of good that are present right in front of us everyday. Our egos tend to filter out perceptions that do not coincide with our world view. Our attitudes program our minds to perceive what we expect to see. I am not proposing a Polyanna view of mankind. We must recognize the areas that need improvement, but not dwell upon them. We must set an example of goodness in our behavior that will inspire others to follow the example. To experience beauty, look for the beauty; to experience evil look for the evil.


I must disagree with your statement,”It is also know that to understand the moon, all one need is to understand the finger that points.”

This comment misstates the point of the original metaphor, which is to “NOT” focus on the finger at all, but to look towards that which the finger is pointing, the moon. Knowledge and study of the finger will not endow one with the experience of seeing the moon. Please allow me to illustrate my point:

Let us say there is a monastery whose teachings are to lead the monks to a knowledge of the taste of oranges. The Master reads from the sacred texts written centuries ago by the Saint of the Orange. In this text there are various descriptions of how an orange looks, how the tree is cultivated, what environment it grows best in and most importantly, what an orange tastes like. The Saint of the Orange knows what oranges taste like because he has had the direct experience of eating oranges and cultivating the source of oranges, orange trees.

This monastery is located high in mountains where orange trees cannot grow. There are no orange trees around for thousands of miles; therefore the monks study what The Saint has to say about oranges and their taste. The monks memorize and recite the holy writings on oranges. They debate the finer intricacies of oranges. They argue with each other about the proper interpretation of The Saint’s writings. Some write commentaries interpreting what The Saint “really” meant when he wrote such and such a statement. The commentaries themselves became holy texts to be read, re-read, memorized and interpreted. Other monasteries are built to meet the growing population of those who wish to know the orange. Eventually, the monks believe themselves to be experts on oranges and how they taste, without ever seeing or tasting an actual orange.

These monks “thinking” themselves wise never realize their ignorance because they have focused on “the finger pointing the way” to oranges and never bothered to go get an orange and eat it for themselves. During all this time The Saint of the Orange is up in Orange Valhalla shaking his head at the foolishness of men who insist that his words have more value than the actual experience of eating an orange.



Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 05:35 AM

A most interesting comment; the ego is in fact a reality and so is one’s self-concept, for they truly exist. The illusion is in thinking that the ego and self-concept are a complete reflection of your total being, which they cannot be.



10-02-2001, 05:49 AM
They exist, and they don't exist.

It is like the story of the young monk who is studying and his teacher says to him, 'What are you?' and he says, 'teacher, I am nothing as nothing is real'.

The teacher hits him upside the head, and the monk looks stunned. The teacher looks at him and says, was that whacking real or nothing?

The teacher explains that in nothingness there is realism and in realism nothingness.

This can be drawn to the ego and the self-concept as indeed, the self-concept is real, and we all have one. And what you said I must agree with, it is not a reflection of what we are in entirety.

My point was more emphasizing on how a baby has no self-concept. Thank you for your comments Scott. They are well received.

- Nexus

10-02-2001, 05:51 AM
Scott.. you told us about what we said, but not about Scott :) Care to share?

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 06:05 AM

I anticipated you understood correctly. We all take shortcuts on the BB’s when attempting to explain our thoughts. I completely agree with you. It is clearly illustrated in the Yin-Yang, mutually inter-dependent; separate, yet at the same time, one. I call it the divine paradox, some things are true and not true, exist and do not exist at the same time depending upon one’s perspective.

As to my personal history, as you know I have written extensively upon this topic in other threads of this BB. Are you sure you want to go through all that again?

Always glad to read your comments.



10-02-2001, 07:01 AM
Agree and addendum,

Such as in the dream state, the blood and rain are real. Our dream body is real.
True, if one contemplates on the finger, one misses out on the moon. Though if one is to understand the moon, one needs to understand the finger.
As the moon and finger is the perception of our karmic body, like in a dream state.

In the orange world, of course, as a layperson, I would rather enjoy the orange, by peeling it and putting into the mouth, but because I can. But by eating it or even putting it under the microscope, one will miss out on the true nature of the orange.

Just an addendum :)


Fish of Fury
10-02-2001, 07:16 AM
westerners will certainly never understand the orange, for the true teachings are all in mandarin
(sorry, little citrus joke there) :)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 07:23 AM

If you mean that one must "understand" that the finger is pointing the way to moon, I agree. If this is not what you mean, then I don't believe I undeerstand your point.

In the Orange world, that was the point. One must eat an orange to understand what an orange tastes like, not talk about it.



Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 07:24 AM
LOL!! Good one Fish.



10-02-2001, 07:54 AM

i tend to agree with prana; if one fully understands the finger which points - he also understands the moon

but the same thing could be said that if one fully understands a flower, one understands the moon, himself, and everything else

to rephrase an old metaphor, the moon is just one facet in a multi-faceted jewel; which reflects on every other facet; and everything has its own facet which reflects on everything else :)


Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 08:02 AM

If that is what Prana means, then I agree as well. Socrates said, "Know thy self and you will know the world." When one truly comprehends a part of creation they will know the whole of creation, in a spiritual sense. However, the assertion that Prana is making in connection with the finger pointing the way to the moon, mis-represents the point of the aphorism.



10-02-2001, 08:09 AM
for example :)

if we look at what my finger depends on; it depends on a few things

my body being in good condition - which depends on me having food and water and air readily available - without these, i would not be able to point my finger at the moon

so my finger depends on my body; which depends on food, water and air

now; to draw a quick line between my finger and the moon...

to have food and water - i need either animals or plants, and animals at the basest level need plants to eat (or other animals to eat, who need plants to eat... etc)

so basically, food for me depends on plants - air also depends on plants because without them we'd have no oxygen to breathe, only CO2 :)

and what do plants depend on? our CO2 from breathing (so they also depend on me - interesting thing), and water

where do plants get water?

from rain of course :)

where does rain come from? evaporated water

the main source of evaporated water? the ocean

(and this is a stretch - but its still there)

the moon causes the tide, and waves with its magnetic pull (and a bunch of other stuff too - im no scientist).. waves kick a lot of moisture up into the atmosphere, helping to make clouds and therefore rain

and therefore the your finger is dependant on the moon (albiet slightly, and if i more bored - one could probably show how the moon depends on your finger - however slightly)

so... to understand your finger fully, you must understand the moon

and that was a pretty silly proof - but i hope you see my point


Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 08:16 AM

All philosophical meanderings while interesting and enjoyable to engage in, remain distractions and miss the point of Zen and the Tao which is to perceive the true reality directly and immediately without commentary. Philosophical musings do no justice to the actual experience. Again, while these mental gymnastics are entertaining and I myself enjoy the activity, they are ABSOLUTELY meaningless to attaining realization. These are not my opinions, but the opinions of every Zen master I have read.



10-02-2001, 08:47 AM
the problem with most philosophies and meditation is that they cant be discribed in words :)

thats why the bhuddas approach to mindfullness is so cool (in my opinion)... in watching everything that occurs in your body, you can see how suffering/ill thoughts arise in your body; and then observe how they dissapear :) once you are familiar enough with this dissaperance, you can invoke it...

the same goes along with you can observe the beginning factors of enlightenment, and when you become familiar enough with them, you can invoke them and encourage them :)

interesting stuff


Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

10-02-2001, 08:50 AM
TjD thank you & well done.

One can understand the moon by understanding the nature of the 5 gates of perception.


With all due respect, think outside of Zen for a moment (Strictly, you won't really be outside of Zen). In a dream state, your body is real. Feelings are real, and solidity seems real, the table, water or the moon is real, even the orange.
If in a dream state, you have understood your dream state body, then in your dream state you would have understood the table, and the orange.

For example, if in a dream state you are to be drowning hopelessly in water, but if you have been enlightened, with the knowledge that you ARE dreaming, and then how can dream water harm you.

Such is meditation, to wake up from this dream state of however long I have been, during my human dream.

The enlightened being never fears death, as the enlightened being understands death is simply a transition of a karmic body, a corpse that lives for 60 years.

As for me, I have only understood a few significant dreams. Long journey yet :)


[This message was edited by prana on 10-03-01 at 12:01 AM.]

Fish of Fury
10-02-2001, 09:11 AM
"the assertion that Prana is making in connection with the finger pointing the way to the moon, mis-represents the point of the aphorism."

perhaps being too attached to true meaning of the aphorism is as "bad" as looking only at the finger.
if all things are one finger and moon are the same?

don't concentrate on the point of the aphorism or you'll miss all that heavenly glory.

or perhaps i'm a foolish fish

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

10-02-2001, 09:25 AM

You are truly the opposite of a foolish fish.

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 09:52 AM
Prana, TJD and Fish

You gentleman are merely playing games with words and atttempting to display psuedo-wisdom. You have not stated anything of profound truth. The comments you are making are merely common new age platitudes. I am not saying there is no truth to your words, merely there is no ultimate value in the expereiences you are discussing. You are playing with childrens' toys. The toys I played with over 20 years ago. It is not that I do not comprehend your views it is that you cannot comprehend mine. These concepts are fun to play with, but they will have to be discarded before realization is attained. Do not take my word for it. Ask any person who has gained any modicum of true wisdom and they will make the same points.



Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 12:56 PM

I have written on this subject before on other threads of this BB. It seems apparent that your youth and inexperience are preventing you from clearly understanding the points I am attempting to illustrate. In my life I have already tread the paths you are espousing. In my youth I have explored the realms that Prana has discussed in the various threads of this BB. These ideas are fun and interesting, but ultimately useless in gaining enlightenment or realization. Prana has said that he has a guru. If he is indeed is a guru he would understand each and every point I have mentioned and be able to confirm them. The points I have sought to illustrate are not original to me. They are the thoughts of every spiritual master that has ever experienced true enlightenment and that includes Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists and other various and sundry mystics. These truths are Absolute truths, they are inviolable. It does not matter whether any of us chose to accept them or not. They stand on their own. Just as fire will burn you to a crisp whether you believe it will or not. Just as 2 + 2 = 4. These truths cannot be changed or challenged. They exist of themselves, separate from our perception of them.

I am not attempting to convince any of you not to pursue your various interests. I am merely attempting to point out that the gathering of knowledge and the development of skills and powers is not enlightenment. Placing undo importance on these will create a hindrance to true realization; again not my words, but those of any master worth the appellation. Realization or enlightenment is a state of mind, a state of being, and not an acquired skill or collection of knowledge. Knowledge of the dream state and conscious dreaming that Prana tends to profess will provide interesting information and is fun to experience, but it is superfluous to enlightenment. The control and movement of chi through our chi channels and the movement of the sleeping dragon up our spine to our crown charka are totally irrelevant to spiritual growth. These are skills with their attendant benefits, but not realization. These are not necessary abilities for gaining enlightenment and should not be confused with great spiritual development. It is possible to develop these skills and have no great spiritual insight. It is unnecessary for an individual to have experiences of powers or knowledge of deeper meanings. In fact it can be detrimental if the individual places undo importance on knowledge, powers, skills and experiences. That is why Zen masters have been known to whack their students. They are attempting to knock some sense into the individual; to knock them out of their rational mind.

The rational mind is a hindrance to direct experience. The rational mind is a product of maya. The root of the word maya is “to measure”. By default the mind that measures is the rational mind. It is the rational mind that categorizes, evaluates, divides and dissects our experiences. The rational mind is a tool and should not be confused with enlightenment, powers or knowledge. As with any other skill or ability the rational mind can be a hindrance to enlightenment and must be placed aside to gain true realization. Philosophical speculation, again is fun to exercise, but carries with it nothing of value for gaining realization.

In your collective attempts to defend Prana’s comment of gaining knowledge of the finger pointing the way to the moon as being equal to knowledge of the moon, you have tread the path leading to maya, illusion. The story of the Saint of the Orange was an attempt to demonstrate the fact that knowledge of the moon or the finger is not what is important. It is the experience of seeing the moon for yourself or eating the orange for yourself that is important i.e. the direct experience of “suchness” not the knowledge of and repeating of someone else’s experience. Which is what conventional learning is; the mere repeating of someone else’s experiences or interpretations of yet someone else’s experiences. It is irrelevant to understand how an orange grows or to study someone else’s experience of eating an orange. It is irrelevant to understand the finger or the moon. What is important is to find an orange and eat it for yourself. Realization or enlightenment is what is important, any other attendant knowledge or abilities gained are unimportant and inessential to the actual state of enlightenment. In fact the attachment to these effects will hinder further growth.



10-02-2001, 01:34 PM

With all due respect, and with utmost respect, we are truly from a different school :)
Let it be that I shall be always wearing shades. And we shall always wear different shoes :) And from here on, I shall respect your shoes and I hope you can respect mine too :)


As long as you are happy and find peace, I am at peace too.

Fish of Fury
10-02-2001, 02:26 PM
so are you enlightened scott?

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

10-02-2001, 07:10 PM
Prana, I might think that even if he was not happy nor found peace, regardless, that you would be happy.

Giving the Moon the finger, I loose my trousers then finger my moon. Oh! Heavenly...Glorious.

My life story? But it is your life story, and your life story and yours and yours. At least one line from each. As all who live theoretically, perhaps, have shared experiences (at least one), perhaps...

"And so the Ch'an teaching method's ultimate goal is to re-create or produce that experience within the student. Words or traditional teaching methods are only one means to that end."

No thing is created, only realized. The words are used to point out things already known, merely not realized or noticed-ish. Hence enlightenment~it was there; like sitting...on a (thumb(there's that finger pointing to the moon :-) )tack, point-up. SAT!-ori [even the name, sat. Passed tense of sit. After sitting (doing--being aware) one can realize] After sitting one may realize OR think of one's self. Hence, Sat Or I.
Don't any of you dare to reply to this as if it were literal-ish.~

Enlightenment is calorie-free hard candy- Ernie Moore Jr.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

10-02-2001, 07:14 PM


The problem with buddhism is it creates to many **** buddhists.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 07:38 PM

It has been clear from the beginning of our correspondences that we follow different paths. I have also made it clear in the past that while I believe your path leads to errors and further illusion I respect it as YOUR path. The key is that I understand your path because I have been down it, but you have not been down my path. The path you have chosen is interesting, but experiences of powers are not enlightenment. The path of powers and abilities can be considered the long way. It is the long way because all the time and effort you put into it will not assist you in gaining enlightenment. That does not make it wrong, just less efficient and when one views life in terms of eternity, what is 80 years or so. The consensus of spiritual masters however, is to not dawdle with erroneous views.


I have addressed your question on another thread. I will give the short answer here. I do not claim absolute enlightenment. I do have a number of smaller realizations and believe myself to be at the threshold of the door. That does not necessarily mean much because the last step could take anywhere from one day to 30 years. A couple of things the extensive study of spiritual matters will demonstrate is; Many are called, but few make it to the final destination, and; There are more charlatans out there than sincere seekers.

Your next question may very well be, “Then how can one discern between the true seeker and the charlatan?”

My answer would be:

1) Question everything continuously. No matter how much wisdom you believe you have gained continue to challenge your perception of truth. Truth can stand the test of questioning; falsehood cannot.

2) Pray for guidance. It will be provided if you ask continuously, earnestly and sincerely.

3) Stay away from the NEW AGE section of the book store. Most of these books rehash old themes that true seekers discarded thousands of years ago. They dazzle you with powers and abilities which distort the true Path. Powers and abilities confuse the mind as Prana’s mind is deluded (No offense intended Prana, I am merely speaking the truth.) and must be eventually discarded.

4) Mystics know more than scholars. Mystics seek direct experience of the ONE. Scholars argue over the mystics experiences, but have no direct knowledge. 5) A poor teach wants the student to follow blindly. They compliment the student on their “uniqueness” and “special” abilities” and generally utilize other means of manipulation to gain and keep followers.

Most of what I write are not my own truths, but the truths of well known established and confirmed enlightened masters throughout history. This information is consistent throughout all religious traditions.



Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 07:42 PM

As with every other religion as well.



10-02-2001, 08:04 PM
The way is the way, regardless. Prana, scott makes some very interesting points, but I believe I could surmise all of what he is saying, he is strictly speaking of the absolute importance of experience in the gaining of realization and enlightenment. Although talking about enlightenment for me is like a fools joke, because I know enlightenment is a rational description of an attitude, something that cannot be done in words.

But also scott is emphasizing the importance of attitude and state of mind. Your attitude will be a key role in your state of mind. This is very very relevant to meditation. Let me try and string these together.

When doing martial arts, such as tai chi, you are not just doing forms/meditation and such for the purpose of doing meditation or learning to fight. You are learning an attitude, which you carry with you when you are "NOT" doing forms and meditation. That is why it is said that meditation can be a hindrance towards enlightenment if one expects to achieve enlightenment from meditation. Trust me on this one, all sorts of people meditate for all sorts of different reasons, and if you do indeed hash through a lot of the garbage in any religion, you will see that the meditative aspects were to develop focus so one could emmerse himself in the experience (being) of things.

This is applicable from the martial arts as one learns in tai chi for instance to maintain a 3-centered attitide. This attitude is one of the energy centers that run through the body, being the 3rd eye, the heart center, and the lower dan tien.

But this is a description of the meditation, not of the attitude. The attitude comes from the experience of being, and of carrying an attitude which you do in the martial arts with you into life.

Things such as tai chi, qi gong, meditation are teaching us a way of perceiving. If you were to argue with me that meditation has not changed the way you perceive the world, I would be tempted to argue with you that you haven't been doing any meditation!

But from these attitudes and meditations one develops the emmersing or awareness one might call it of experience. All so funny now, when I think back on Scott's post on oranges and it is quite clear that I could not explain to you the experience of having a meditative attitude or tai chi attitude or anything you wish to call it, these are things you will have to find on your own.

Prana, in terms of the path you walk, it is indeed and happily considered your path. In fact, the path we each walk is interdependant on the paths of others, as we all learn from the whole and unity of things, and in that develop our own perspective.

At first it is almost fear inside of ourselves when we are told that "WE" must discover our own Way, our own path. That others can only point in the direction, but we must walk it. Whatever we accumulate (powers, knowledge, rational, insights) along the way, we must carry with us as we walk. So the more you fill into your backpack as you walk the path of enlightenment, the heavier the backpack may seem. But what really matters is what you "EXPERIENCE" while you walk on that path, not what you have in your backpack while you are walking.

Now rationally this is difficult to understand, and also one might question that some of the things one carries with him on the path are key for survival. Well if it is key for survival, then it will not be a burden or an excess, and in that it is part of you, and not being carried by you. Be sure to make that dillineation when finding your Way.

Hey Scott, when you do reach enlightenment as you perceive it, promise me you will post one last message on the board for US! :P (Hah!)

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
10-02-2001, 08:19 PM

Thank you for the assistance.

I would not hold my breath on the enlightenment thing. It will probably occur when I least expect it and more likely in 20 years than tomorrow. The last step is aways the most difficult. It is there, I can taste it, I just haven't found it yet.

I am not so sure how appropriate it would be to say, "Hey guys, guess what? I am enlightened now." Jesus said a prophet has no where to lay his head in his own land. I will send you a top secret message, though. LOL!!

I will remain diligent in my focus.



10-03-2001, 01:53 AM
Scott, Nexus, Lyle, Fish

Please allow me to ridicule my own position, with no offense intended for anyone here. My glasses are seeing many sentences and words I have to read many times to understand.

okay, One thing is for sure, I do not really know how to play with words. It is not a strong point for me, as many a people around me find it difficult even frustrating because I cannot pass on a simple point properly.

I have been sitting for over ten years now, and day in day out whether it'd be a 20 minute sit, or a 3 hour sit, my realisation, however subtle and however dream like, one (I) hopes the he is improving himself. Let the seed grow itself into the tree. Though the path be different and colored, and the meaning of enlightenment be varied, it be peace and happiness you and I to find.


Fish of Fury
10-03-2001, 02:01 AM
thanks for the reply
i was not necessarily defending pranas post, but i was indeed playing with words (it's what i do a lot)
i also don't claim to be enlightened, but i have attempted to "walk the path" for a while now, so i admit to finding some of your statments odd and slightly offensive (not necessarily a bad thing, i'll take the reminder to heart)
but it seems a stretch to talk about our "youth and inexperience" etc. etc. when you really don't know where i'm at...it seems there's some arrogance in your post. is that hindering your final step? (just wondering)

BTW the point i was making about the aphorism is the same (to my way of thinking) as your story of the oranges (i usually use bananas as an example, but all fruit are one!) i agree with you essentially.
being too rigidly attached to THE "meaning" of the aphorism to me is like arguing over growing conditions of the variegated thin skinned navel.

2+2 = 4 yes, but
1+3 also =4 as does
9-5 =4
don't stand at the = sign and fail to take the last step because you're still arguing over how you got to the answer

may seem like word games to you.
may be
but they illustrate a point the same as your words do (a point from my experience, not from the new age section)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

10-03-2001, 02:06 AM

I always try to read the person/meaning behind the posts, but it just takes me longer than others :)


I would like to point out too, perhaps being brought up in the "eastern" way may have "illuded" my defn of enlightenment. Nevertheless, my path is set as I have taken vows, and if the path be led to devil waters, then it be the path I shall take, it may be slow, it may be difficult, but I have much faith.

[This message was edited by prana on 10-03-01 at 05:15 PM.]

10-03-2001, 02:57 AM
Fish - "...it seems there's some arrogance in your post."

I think Scott was simply training to imply that he has gone that route before, and tried those things, and it simply trying to save you time. What seems like arrogance, and although it may be that, could also be what is "necessary" to make you look at what he said. And keep in mind that arrogance is often the interpretation of the receiver and not the giver, it is not solely dependant on intentions.

If you were 45 years old, you might agree that you were different in your youth and that many youths think that what they know is finite. Scott is not implying that he can hand you over the Way in which you should lead your life, and in that, you should take what he says with a grain of salt and move on, do not become offended, as it is obvious to myself and many others that although you may be young in years, you are much older in spirituality.

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
10-03-2001, 03:32 AM

Directness is often confused with arrogance. We live in a relativistic society where it is popular to think that all Truth is relative. Society in general attempts to enforce conformity to the generalized worldview through ridiculing anyone who dares to speak in terms of absolutes. Regardless of what popular culture insists, there are absolutes. When some people in our society make statements of absolutes it is generally regarded as offensive and insensitive to the beliefs of others. Nonetheless, absolutes exist and at times I will not allow “political correctness” to influence my comments.

If I were in a swim race with another person it would behoove me to swim using the most efficient swim stroke, which is the crawl stroke. If I choose to race using the breaststroke, I cannot complain when I lose. If I say to you the crawl stroke is more efficient than the breaststroke I would not be acting with arrogance, merely stating a fact.

I understood that some would find my comment about age offensive when I wrote it and I debated with myself whether to include the section or not. I decide to include it because it was an honest statement of belief. Of course it is impossible to be completely accurate when evaluating another person over a BB. If my comment does not apply to you disregard it and prove me wrong by demonstrating me wrong not engaging in the very behavior of which you have accused me.

My “age” comment was meant to be an assessment of a stage of understanding and not necessarily chronological age. It was not meant to be a put down, just an assessment of conditions, as I perceived them. My perceptions were based upon the comments you and others have made combined with my experiences of others in the past that have made these same comments. While not 100% accurate a persons comments and their reactions to the comments of others can be a reasonably accurate method of assessing another’s level of understanding and maturity. It is important to remain flexible with one’s assessment however, as further evidence reveals more information and conclusions must be modified.

It is possible to be 60 years old and still possess little understanding and it is possible to be 17 years old and behave with greater understanding than average 17 year olds, however certain types of growth require time and experience along with the intent to grow. Generally, even an exceptional a 17 year old will not have the understanding of a 60 year old that has actively attended to their growth. Understanding requires time and cultivation to develop and cannot be forced before certain foundations are laid. One cannot understand geometry without understanding addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

Since you have explained to me your joy of playing with words I will only make a short comment regarding your math skills. The point of 2 + 2 = 4 was to demonstrate that there are absolutes of truth. Certainly any number of paths will eventually lead to the same conclusion, however: using 6 x 12 –36 / 9 is the long way of symbolizing the number 4.


Please do not misunderstand my intentions. I have read enough of your writings to conclude that you are sincere in your determination to gain spiritual maturity. I respect that very much because many people merely dabble in spiritual matters. My intentions have been to assist the readers of my comments in bypassing some of the pitfalls that I have encountered along my way. For years I followed the path of wisdom to eventually discover that, while I learned much and gained much, I would have to disregard it all to reach a direct experience of ONEness. Wisdom is not necessary and neither are powers to reach enlightenment. Time wasted? Not necessarily. Like I said above, “What is 80 years compared to eternity?”

I respect each individuals desire to learn their own lessons and walk their individual path. However, I would be remiss if I did not say that the breaststroke is not the most efficient method for swimming a race. This is not arrogance, just a statement of fact born from experience.



10-03-2001, 03:56 AM
Scott, why don't you just cut the crap and say what you are really trying to say..

That you can beat any of us in a swimming contest!

And also you can eat an orange while doing the breast stroke :) Now that, my friend, is enlightenment.

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
10-03-2001, 04:12 AM

One other thing; realization can be attained regardless of the spiritual tradition one follows. I do not think I have been clear enough. I have known deeply spiritual individuals from many different traditions, from New Age, to Native American, to cults etc. It is not the tradition it is how individuals use the tradition to assist themselves on the path. This is why there are no wrong paths. On the path you are following you will develop many skills. There is nothing wrong with developing skills, only confusing the attainment of skills with enlightenment. The accumulation of skills is something we all do. Martial Arts are an acquired skill. Just as Michael Jordan’s skills in basketball do not confer upon him greater spiritual development neither do the accumulation of esoteric skills to the adherent.

Skills will give you knowledge that hopefully will point the way, but skills do not equal realization that is all I am trying to saying.



Scott R. Brown
10-03-2001, 04:15 AM

LOL!!! You have found me out. I am merely a former swimmer and actually know nothing of spiritual matters. My grandmother had an orange tree, so that is where my love of the citrus began.

I can hold my breath real well too!!



10-03-2001, 05:18 AM
Scott, I literally laughed out loud at that one. So i'll be watching on HBO for when Chris Rock decides to have you as a comedy guest :)

- Nexus

10-03-2001, 05:58 AM
i was simply drawing a silly analogy :) thats really not how i understand prana saying that by understanding the finger which points, you understand the moon

in fact i definately probably have to bow before your superior wisdom - i'm only twenty (and barely that!) :)

i have a long life ahead of me; currently i'm just trying to live my life to calm my mind, and be able to concentrate better without my mind running off all willy-nilly

constant mindfulness has brought me a long ways... i'd say most of the time when i walk, i am actually walking - and with my mind in the moment; as with whatever else im doing at the moment

i'm by no means taintless... but ive come a ways towards removing them :) and when they do spring up, i can cultivate the path to remove them from my mind

i'm just waiting for the day when i finally figure out how to concentrate perfectly


Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

Fish of Fury
10-03-2001, 06:07 AM
thanks scott
(****, i'm being sucked into being polite and trying to act mature...oh,well)
i should point out that by saying "there seems to be some arrogance" i was also trying to be direct and not attempting to insult you.

i totally agree that direct experience is "good" .i value my experience (such as it is) more highly than manuals for the correct growth of orange trees.i also agree that powers etc. would be a hinderance to enlightenment/ not an end in themselves

what i'm not so sure about is your assertion about absolutes.there may be absolutes for me and for you...but do they hold for everybody?
if i walk a path and find it isn't right for me, is it not possible that it may be right for someone else? i do believe truth is relative.
perhaps that also depends on what you consider to be the "right" path?

i suppose my experience is absolutes are rigid, and that can give rise to dogma (which i think was one lesson of the "orange monks") but perhaps i'm assuming absolutes = dogma = judgment (which i absolutely should not do!)

i also appreciate that knowing that truth is relative doesn't necessarily get you anywhere
eg. knowing that there's lots of space between atoms doesn't allow you to walk through walls.
but it does let you reconsider what is absolute.
are you saying there's no value in such reconsideration? (could well be true...relatively)


as for the pool...
...i'm probably better suited for use as a flotation device


__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

10-03-2001, 07:45 AM
There is one destination. This destination has many roads. Each road has many destinations.~

2+2=zero; two meet two they fight, all die.

2+2=7; me and my friend think we can't beat two agressors. We call five of our friends to help.


It is not given that two plus two equals four.

When one is told a thing; that one cannot learn that thing.

The answer is not, in all instances, the answer.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

Scott R. Brown
10-03-2001, 08:03 AM

Thank you for the clarification. I understand that sometimes what is a serious topic for one person is an opportunity for playfulness to another. As you continue your journey you will discover that what you find to be true changes yet remains the same. Just as an orange remains an orange whether it is whole or peeled, observed or tasted. Knowledge builds upon knowledge, wisdom upon wisdom.


Thank you for the clarification. I did not feel insulted. I understood my comments would most likely ruffle some feathers and was prepared for the fall out. I appreciate directness when egotism is not involved.

On truth and absolutes, it is difficult to explain, but I will attempt to do so.

Truth remains constant and does not change therefore it is an absolute. It is our perception of truth that changes. Our perception is determined by our perspective and our perspective is determined by our depth of understanding. As in the example above to TjD, our perception of an orange is determined by the perspective with which we choose to perceive it. The orange remains constant, it is us that changes or rather our perspective. When concerned with truth it appears that truth is changing, but it does not. We change in relationship to truth.

The depth of one’s knowledge of truth is determined by the individual’s ability to understand. Just as one can understand the relationship between addition, subtraction, multiplication and division to geometry and how these are the foundation of geometry, so small truths are the basis of larger truths. The smaller truths do not change because you have moved on to larger truths. The small truths remain the same it is your relationship to them that changes and thus they appear to change, but it is you that have changed. When my son was one year old I carried him across the street, when he was five he held my hand. By the time he was ten he was crossing the street on his own with an occasional reminder from me to carefully look both ways. When he becomes twenty he will be responsible for his own safety. When he is thirty he will teach the same lessons to his son. The danger (truth) of crossing the street has never changed. The manner in which this danger (truth) applies to my son changes because of my son’s development.

This is as close to an illustration as I can come at this time. I hope it makes some sense.

As I stated earlier in this thread, we live in a society of relativism. We believe that to impose our beliefs on others robs them of the freedom to determine their own destiny. There is some value in this perspective. The long historical example of Catholicism and Christianity in our culture has demonstrated the dangers of narrow mindedness. It is important to not confuse open mindedness with empty mindedness (as in brainless), however. We should live our lives conforming to the Tao (truth) and not impose it on others in order to allow them the freedom to determine their own destiny. However, when engaged in discussions about the nature of realization and truth it is important to be able to communicate the absoluteness of truth.



Scott R. Brown
10-03-2001, 08:15 AM

With all due respect to your attempt think originally, what you have written is pure gibberish. In fairness I have been been guilty of such gibberish myself. I am not attempting to discourage you from attempting original thought. Intellectual investigation of truth is necessary. When I made the exact same comments myself in my younger days I was told it was gibberish as well. I eventually had to concede the truth of it. In an attempt to redefine truth you have merely said nothing at all.

2 + 2 = 4 it always has and always will. It is a truth that is not relative to one’s perspective. It only appears to change when when you redefine the meaning of the symbols, which in logic is cheating thus making your statement illogical and consequently gibberish. It is irrelevant what symbols one uses, when I take * * and put it together with * * I have * * * *, not * * * * * * *.

Keep thinking though.



10-04-2001, 03:25 AM
I will wade in really late in this discussion and put in my 2 cents worth. You can do with the small change as you wish :)

To me, there are many paths to the same destination. As Scott pointed out, we all have different perceptions of the truth, however this may also mean that we all follow different paths to the truth. What may be the correct path for prana may be a dead end for Scott. What may be a dead end for Fish (no water maybe? :)) may be the utlimate path for myself. I do not feel that it is possible to tell someone over the internet that the path they follow is the wrong one.

Oh, I am pretty ambivalent to oranges, love bananas, and like Fish of Fury am more suited to be used as a floatation device, or an anchor rather than being a high speed aquatic missile :).

You're fu(king up my chi

10-04-2001, 04:03 PM
"When I made the exact same comments myself in my younger days I was told it was gibberish as well."

They were wrong-ish then too.

...Even sitting on the tack, you miss the point. To say "nothing" is the Zen, Ch'an point (that resembled cursing).

2+2=zero, 2+2=7, 2+2=1, 2+2= 1 googleplex quinted...

Using concepts to spark realization of the not quite as I thought of it , or the not as literal as I was being, or as literal as that!?by perceivedly not saying anything with their words is the mechanics~

A Bandit, yeah, you, I got the impression that you were being diplomatic in some way. Thank you for your consideration.

In what ways is , "There is one destination. This destination has many roads. Each road has many destinations.~" different from, "...there are many paths to the same destination. As Scott pointed out, we all have different perceptions of the truth, however this may also mean that we all follow different paths to the truth. What may be the correct path for prana may be a dead end for Scott. What may be a dead end for Fish (no water maybe? ) may be the utlimate path for myself.?"

"I do not feel that it is possible to tell someone over the internet that the path they follow is the wrong one."

Informational. Why share that if not to indicate that you perceived that it had occured? Where was it said by whom, besides Scott R. Brown~, that someome was on the wrong path?

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

Scott R. Brown
10-04-2001, 05:17 PM

You are consistently attempting to redefine the rules of mathematics, which is beyond your authority to accomplish. No one has the authority. No amount of redefining will make * * grouped with * * equivalent with "zero" or * * * * * * * or * or * x 10 to the 100th power. All you need do is look carefully to see that * * grouped with * * gives you a group of * * * *. This is an absolute and inviolable law. You certainly may live as if it were not so, but that is living in delusion, which is what a Zen practitioner is attempting to avoid. The argument you are using is merely redefining the rules of our discussion, but does not argue against the truth because it is not addressing the truth of mathematics. It is similar to me calling a rose a tomato and then attempting to make catsup with it. No matter how hard I try I cannot make catsup out of a rose. (I can hear the jokes coming.)

There “appears” to be many paths to realization. There is in reality only one. The process of realization will be the same for each individual regardless of the religious tradition they follow. Just because there “appears” to be many paths, does not make it so. The appearance of many paths is caused by delusion. Delusion is created by the ego. Humans attempt to redefine reality in our own image; we tend to believe that we can create our own rules of life, admirably demonstrated by your attempt to redefine the laws of mathematics. This is egocentric. We cannot control the Tao. We are to conform to it regardless of whether we agree with the rules. This is how individuals achieve realization. These are not my rules they are the rules of life.

Zen’s purpose is to experience reality as it truly is, without the interference of our egos. Our egos are limited; the true reality is unlimited. We must transcend the limited in order to experience the unlimited.

Those that perceive many paths have not traveled down the road far enough. Most of what we learn will be discarded as we approach the final destination. I have previously compared spiritual paths to a funnel in order demonstrate that all paths lead to a common center. This is an adequate description, but not completely accurate either. It implies that there are different paths when there are not. All truth paths are the same path dressed in different clothing and tailored to different personality types and cultures The process and experiences of those who are truly on the path will be similar regardless of the religious tradition they follow. The more you insist this is not so the longer it will take you. But, do not take my word for it either. I recommend that you provisionally accept what I say as true and investigate it for yourself. The truth reveals itself to all who persistently question and investigate.



10-04-2001, 09:33 PM

There are no questions; there are no answers. There is what was and whatever whatever.-ish :~>

Thank you for your time, and have a Great!!! day.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

Scott R. Brown
10-05-2001, 09:56 AM

From a superficial perspective there certainly are questions and answers. These are found at the beginning stages of the spiritual path. (Where most of us are.) But I agree with you as well, at the end of the path there are no questions or answers only "suchness" sometimes called "thusness" this is where duality merges with oneness and all is realized as ONE and MULTIPLES at the same time. i.e. The YIN-YANG

Thank you for your thoughts.



10-11-2001, 08:09 PM
What I've learned over the years:

Nothing is more important than the ability to enjoy life to its fullest.

Spoiling the life of another person rebounds upon oneself - and sometimes that's a GOOD thing.

10-13-2001, 11:01 PM
People tend to be lost to themselves. And spend much of their lives to find.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

Kung Lek
10-13-2001, 11:39 PM
I sprang forth, screaming from my mothers loins.

Later, I learned to speak and then spoke and listened and watched and touched and felt, to learn.

Years passed.

I am here now.

This has been the abridged version of my life. :D


Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

10-22-2001, 06:55 PM
"It is also know that to understand the moon, all one need is to understand the finger that points."
- Prana

Ok, Prana, you seemed to have stirred up quite the dust cloud here with your little statement. Care to put it all to rest now and clarify EXACTLY what you meant by that? Please???

10-23-2001, 01:58 AM
Hmmmm, first of all, with all due respect, may I answer by questioning.

Ahhh the moon is so beautiful, it glows at night, it rises in the east and is sets in the west, "or fairly closely" :) I have seen past the finger and pointed at the moon.

So what have I understood ? I am still an ignorant fool, priding myself in the intellectualising knowledge of the moon. Now let me explain to the blind man, this beautiful moon.
Or perhaps the household dog.

And which one of us isn't blind to a certain extend ?

For most of us the moon is merely beautiful patch on the sky. For a handful of us, it is hard, like earth.

Maybe one should spend more time meditating on the finger that points. Perhaps the moon really won't exist, like the finger.

And isnt it ironic, that we could have mile long conversations and miss the whole point, the moon, because we could not detach from the finger, the words ?

Don't become overwhelmed by these words, See the true meaning behind them....
heheh I think TjD is explained it much better than I could. Perhaps give his explainations another read ?

10-23-2001, 02:23 AM
Man can distinguish between the moon and see them both as the same. We can see the truth and lies, and know that both are the Tao. We can see the differences between right and wrong, the moon and the finger, cheese and bread, and if we hold no prejiduce on either then they are kept to us as the same.

The moon is still real for a man whom is blind, although he may not see it. The finger that points is still pointing although the man with no hands may not point it.

- Nexus

10-25-2001, 01:35 AM
this is probably the best discussion of the whole forum and i have missed it , i will read it at a later date as i dont have time now , but one thing i have learnt is.

Whatever you give your attention and focus to you become, if it is to money you become materialisic if it is to women you become and animal.

So if you wish to merge with the highest everything you must do must be done in the name of the most high. wether you eat sleep write a letter or train it should be done in the name of the most high

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

10-25-2001, 05:41 PM
Be careful how you interpret what you just said regarding the most high. Beyond a world system view that is the truth, but most people would say, 'Oh, I agree with that. I do this in the name of Allah or God or Jesus etc.'

That is a misinterpretation. In order to do something for the most complicated reason, one must also do it for the most simple. If you are to take what you said and truly understand it, try and understand what the paradox is to the statement you have made, what is the yin and yang of the truth behind that.

- Nexus

10-26-2001, 01:35 AM

Much like the surgeon who cuts open a wound in a patient to save him, versus the robber who plunges the knife into the victim to hurt him. For me, I try to listen to Buddha's teachings, and ones thoughts are regarded highly.