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View Full Version : Will the Real Seven Star Mantis please stand up?



DaiKaiju
10-12-2000, 03:55 PM
There is a whole lot of drama going on here under who is a legit praying mantis teacher.


Will you guys just get some hold on yourselfs and fess up on who is legit and who is not!

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!

word
10-19-2000, 08:19 AM
LEE KAM WING IS REAL . I WOULDN'T SAY HE'S REALLY GOOD BUT HE'S OKAY. RAUL ORTIZ IS FAKE. JON FUNK IS REAL BUT HE'S STIFF. BRENDEN LAI IS REAL. HE USES TOO MUCH POWER BUT HE'S BETTER THAN LEE KAM WING. CHUI CHE MAN WASN'T THAT GREAT OF A PRACTIONER BUT HE DID LEARN MORE MATERIAL THAN WONG HON FUN.

loki
10-19-2000, 01:28 PM
I guess that settles it then. Word and his "Sifu" are the best! Word send me your school address, I want to join asap!.... Not!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

phantom
10-19-2000, 09:15 PM
Word, could you please tell me which video series on seven star mantis would be the best for me to buy? You do not seem to be too impressed with any of the sifus who currently have videos available.

word
10-20-2000, 07:42 AM
Jon Funk's videos give good INSTRUCTION. He teaches the movements slowly and with good explanation. Most other videos, like RAUL ORTIZ, just play the form in slow motion and expect you to learn it. Lee Kam Wing has videos coming out and I'm sure they are better than Funk's. They are probably okay to start with. If you want to get good at mantis, don't expect it from a video. Don't expect to get good at anything frm a video , even if there are good ones.

phantom
10-20-2000, 11:57 PM
Thanks, word. However, some people claim that Jon Funk's level of skill is not very high. Peace.

word
10-21-2000, 02:17 AM
Funk's videos don't teach high quality kung fu. i said they give good INSTRUCTION. I have seeen one good video. It's a wing chun one by sifu chung k chow. He's good and explains everything also. Videos are 30$ in various kung fu magazines.

Tekarius
10-21-2000, 04:17 AM
Word what's the best Jon Funk Video you've ever seen? And have you ever seen the eagle claw videos by Leung Shum or Gini Lau?

phantom
10-22-2000, 10:42 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, Word. Peace.

PlasticSquirrel
11-03-2000, 12:09 AM
you can't get good from a video? i have to disagree with that completely. if they're good videos, you can get as good with a style as if you had a regular teacher. many of the teachers who make videos are world-renowned, and i would rather learn from them than have learned from someone who didn't know what he/she was doing. these good videos are few and far between, but if you find them, you will be glad you did.
it seems that the people who say those things about videos have never actually watched/learned from a good one, and only say that to reaffirm that the money that they spend on lessons is well-spent, and to make them feel superior. the fact of the matter is, that a good teacher can let out his information to the masses and be confident in his abilities, letting himself open to criticism. in retrospect, i regret learning from my old teachers, because they didn't possess the ability to completely explain movements and applications, and that rendered many of the forms useless. just like finding a good teacher, you need to find a good video series, recommended by others.
if a video doesn't have a complete analysis of the movements, then it's not a good one. send it back.

loki
11-03-2000, 01:11 AM
Have to disagree with you PS. You can learn "some" things from a video but very little. Do you realize how many times instructors have to physically correct their students when going over new techniques and even old ones ? Even the more advanced students and the more talented have to be corrected from time to time. You may think you are doing something right and it may be off but you will never know because that person on the video cannot reach out to tell you. Even some Sifu will from time to time visit their own Sifu to review old material. You can attempt to learn off videos all you want but you are just deceiving yourself if you think you are going to get to a high level of skill through that medium. Actually, all you will be doing is simply imitating what you see on the screen. Videos are good for reference, entertainment, and to see what a particular style may look like or something like that but that's about it.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Dreamer
11-03-2000, 11:20 PM
Ok, this is very simple. How good you can get from a video depends on how good you are at understanding how and why the movement is done.
All students don't get corrected by the teacher!
You can even learn from a good textbook. Don't get cocky because you have a techer.
There is no perfect system and there is no perfect way of performing it. Our joints are different such as many other things about our bodys. The teacher will teach you the way he was taught. And if you only listen to your teacher and not think for yourself you won't be as good as you can be. You will also prevent the art from evolving.

There is an advantage though, since a teacher will give you feedback you will learn faster.

<font color = "#000033"> [b]D[b]reamer</font>

mantis714mrkmrg
04-18-2001, 04:22 AM
dreamer, you said it all!!!! I couldnt agree more. :cool:

bamboo_ leaf
04-18-2001, 06:35 AM
also agree.
your level really detrimes what you can learn, be it from a teach or video.

of course its always better to learn from a good teacher.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

Taijimantis
04-18-2001, 12:34 PM
mebby all students arent physically corrected.
mebby they should be.

There is absolutely no way that learning from a video can be the same as learning from a quality instructor. There is a difference between "learning" a system by memorizing a sequence of movements and then performing that set from memory, and actually being shown the technique and its application firsthand. Demonstrated technique by applying it to the student so that the student knows how it feels to go flying thru the air, as well as what it feels like to be the one doing the throwing cannot be reproduced on a video.

But alas, this is an old arguement. But I dont know how anyone regardless of skill level can pick up the subtle hidden techniques within each form. There is a lot more to Kung Fu than learning how to "dance" around. And with no ego whatsoever involved, I would say with a lot of confidence that any person with the same "level" of experience with mantis as myself, that they learned strictly from video, I would be able to take, no question. Because I better understand the techniques in my toolbox than someone who watched TV.

Dont get me wrong this isnt some macho challange. It is my opinion. I dont DO machismo. But this is one of the few times where I have to say that I feel the people who feel they can learn as much from a video as they can from a good instructor are straight up wrong. They are fooling themselves.

Namaste.

MagicMantis
04-18-2001, 09:54 PM
I would have to agree that a teacher is indispensable, especially in the first few years. Some would argue that there are, for example, scholars who learned their fields exclusively from books, but rarely are these in the fields of physical sciences, such as the martial arts.

More to the point, before launching on their independent studies they usually had teachers who taught them to read, to spell, as well as such things as philosophy and history. With these firm foundations and the advantages of personal correction they later launched on their independent studies with a greater ability to appreciate the work of others without the same direct contact they needed as early students.

The same is necessary of a martial artist, and the less experienced you are the more you need the personal correction of a live teacher who can focus in on your specific weak points.

However I think it would be wise to remember the old chinese proverb "If I rely only on teachers, better I be without teachers. If I rely only on books, better I be without books." In these days that saying could probably be expanded to include "If I rely only on videos, better I be without videos".

Neil Alexander
New York City

inyo
04-19-2001, 03:07 PM
word could you please explain your comments re sifu's chiu chi man and lee kam wing. i train in 7* mantis in perth western australia,my sifu is jimmy tsui--ex student of chiu chi man and kung fu brother of lee kam wing.i find him to be a really good teacher, however i have only limited experience in this particular style,so would appreciate your feedback.i do however have a lot of experience with quality teachers,although in other styles of martial arts.i'm not ****ed at your comments,just curious re what you base your opinion on.--inyo--oossuu??? :confused:

wisdom mind
04-19-2001, 03:46 PM
What is the basis for this statement?

handsome
04-22-2001, 02:15 AM
Well, i agreed with Word's post 80% and i have had seen Branden Lai , Jon Fonk and Lee Kim Wing in action ... i wasnt impressed with them at all. Mostly my comment based on my exprience with Chu Gar Tonglong, sometimes it require an opened mind and some experience to see things a little in dept--by all mean not to say we dont respect others, it's just an honest opinion...i hope everyone could consider it as friendly discussion between two MA rather than some politics...

bamboo_ leaf
04-22-2001, 07:42 AM
To agree 80% with (word) doesn’t say much for your viewpoint.
And yes its good to have an open mind.

The question of legitimacy has many facets.
In one case it could mean the one authorized to teach a system by the systems association.

In another facet it could mean the way someone actually performs the system in accordance with the systems properties.

Many of the names mentioned have been playing mantis for a long time, and are recognized within the mantis circles. In short the family is not very big and people know each other.

It seems that many people here confuse looking or seeing something on a video? and making a judgment on the abilities of the performer. These judgments might mean something if they where from some member of the commity who was a recognized expert. Or from some who has touched hands with the persons that they comment about.

We never hear that I touched hands with this person and I didn’t really think his/her mantis was that good. Or I talked with this person and he/she didn’t know anything about mantis. We don’t even hear (I think that) this or that is wrong because.

What we read is / I saw some video / and this person doesn’t know (what ever) a judgment by some one who never qualifies their judgment other then having access to
The Internet.

good to keep an open mind.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

seung ga faat
04-22-2001, 06:02 PM
I am going to respond to comments about Sifu Funk by saying this: both he and myself officiated a tournament here on the east coast with all Mantis Form division. I don't really care about his videos because I get the feeling that he uses them to develope interest in praying mantis and as a way to promote the art and yes to a degree himself. But, let me speak on my experiences with him as an individual. J. Funk knows and understands PM, J. Funk promotes PM and he is an Ok guy from my own personal experience. We exchanged a little bit and our PM is a little different but also a little the same.

Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas

inyo
04-26-2001, 06:22 AM
Word---still waiting for your explanation re your comments/criticism of sifu's Chiu Chi Man and Lee Kam Wing.OOSSUU!!! :confused: :confused: :confused:

Turiyan
05-13-2001, 06:46 AM
You CAN learn from a video. BUT, with praying mantis, the most you'll see, is FORMS. I mean mostly all you'll see is forms.

Turiyan, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

Turiyan
05-13-2001, 06:57 AM
I'm a film scholar and surpise, how do you learn to PRODUCE? You study film. Wow.

However, the best you can learn from the crap out there on VHS as far as martial arts goes is what NOT to do.

Those that push the "I can teach you what to do" too much are probably frauds and charlatans. Thats just my take on it.

You cant TEACH film.
You cant TEACH acting.

Actors study other actors. The best musicians learned by DOING. Listening. Theory is great for some things. FORM allows two or more people to COMMUNICATE in a common language.

Paradoxical, yes. But isnt this what people are looking for with the Yin and Yang mumbo jumbo?

Socrates said we can learn soely by observation. However, this is Socrates were talking about.

Here is a man that knew the difference between sense and perception. Value judgments get in the way of wide open perceptions. And most are coming directly from the self.

The eye can only see itself.

Turiyan, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

Inquisitor
05-13-2001, 08:37 AM
I think that videos have a lot of inherent traits which make them "better" than having an instructo, such as: being able to reply the video over and over again until you get the movement, being able to watch it on your own time, etc. However, a good, quality instructor can do many things that a video will never be able to do. For example, he can watch you do a particular movement in a form and then say "You don't want to put your free hand here because of..." or "Make sure that you watch your opponent's feet, because if you're doing this then he can do this..." and other things. He can point out things that you may not see yourself doing, and can make sure that you're doing things properly. It all really depends on the quality of the video and the instructor in question. You can have a good video that may teach you more than a really bad instructor, after all. However, that does not change my opinion that learning from a good instructor is always better than learning from a video, no matter how good the video is.

suff0beast
05-14-2001, 02:00 AM
I learned quite a few things from Video Correspondence... Actually I know that I may be alittle rigid, but everyday I practice and everyday my motions become more fluid. Again Shaolin Martial artists learned from watching animals, could it be the same. An Animal wouldn't exactly tell someone how they move, they just have to observe over and over and over... So video gives a good medium to observe w/. This alos could help one w/ observation in confrontation and in watching others as well in their martial arts.. Teachers are definitely a plus to have because they give 1) feedback, 2) Most likely you are in a class which means other people to help and to practice your methods...

Just my thoughts!

inyo
05-14-2001, 08:39 PM
You cannot learn martial arts from watching a video,no matter how many times you replay specific forms/techniques etc,this is a shallow understanding of what martial arts are about.You learn from a qualified ??? teacher---from your seniors--from your peers and from those who are junior to you.IT IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL understanding,--You learn through FEELING---from experiencing pain,disappointment,frustration,failure,success, developing respect for yourself and others -----.You learn through participating,NOT WATCHING !!! AND after years of active participation you integrate your experience and it becomes part of yourSELF--.SOMETHING INSTINCTIVE that manifests itself spontaneously,without thought.It is not something that you attempt to recall from watching a video. :( :( :(

Laughing Buddha
05-15-2001, 10:11 PM
I'm curious about your statement about not being impressed with the Mantis masters out there. What, exactly, did you find was unimpressive? Was it the technique being shown? Or the execution of said technique?



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</P>

A "Laughing Buddha" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.</P>

*** I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kw oon, so any errors I make are mine alone. ***</P>

DaiKaiju
05-17-2001, 01:40 AM
Wow, it has been a while since I have been on but I can see the lunacy of this board hasn't changed. I ask who is a legit mantis stylist and all I get is drama about video cassettes.
From what I have seen and heard, there are a bunch of people who claim the are from the mantis lineage but very few who can back their claim up.
For example I look and the ad for the Praying Mantis videos from Raul Ortiz and all I see is a man using a Tiger strike.
??????
What is that about? Then you have guys going back and forth about how many forms should be in the system.
How in the Maker's name do you mantis people expect to grow if you can't get along, much less get your facts right?
Can someone please clear up this **** mess?
:rolleyes: :eek: :p

That which does not kill you will only make you stronger, and if does kill you, then you sucked to begin with!!