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MiamiMantis
10-12-2000, 10:44 PM
I was reading a post on what your favorite Mantis style was, saw it as a good question, and posted my reply. As I was reading the other replies, I noticed that Kicking Mantis saw Wah Lum as a "performance art". Not to be one that flies of the handle when things are said about my system, I wanted Kicking Mantis to elaborate on that quote. I see Wah Lum as a well rounded system, not perfect, as none are, as all are lacking something or another. Actually I also take that as a compliment as Wah Lum does very well in competition, in forms and fighting, and indeed the forms are very flowing and do good in competition..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Papieboni
10-13-2000, 08:41 AM
Miami Mantis,

I dont see anywhere in my post where I said anything about Wah Lum being a "Performance Art!"
Wnen you read items, read carefully before you respond.

MiamiMantis
10-13-2000, 06:28 PM
Well it's in pretty plain english, but I will refresh your memory just in case. You responded to Phantom's post on what is your favorite style of Mantis and why and you replied, and I quote "However, previously, I studied and still practice traditions of Wah Lum and found it to be a good system, more of a performance art, good forms and drills for basics and to develop power, flexibility and strength." Then you go on singing the merits of 7 seven star, which I'm sure is an excellant system. That I am not arguing. Just expand on performance art for me. Thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Papieboni
10-14-2000, 07:14 AM
Miami,

I guess I did say those words didn't I!.

We'll......like I said, I am not putting down any art, because i feel the individual has to develop their art to make it part of who they are to make it work for them, However, In my opinion, Wah Lum as do many other Northern and Some Southern styles, hold characteristics that make them pleasing to the eye and gathers crowds. High, Jumping, and Spinning Kicks, Full Sweeps, long arm and body movements, Butterfly kicks, Splits, very low kicks on one leg and etc......to me are examples of movements that are beautiful that are in arts that are excellent in pleasing crowds and some of the techniques are questionable for modern day combat purposes unless they are altered a bit or signifigantly.

If I am teaching a student and I say this is the movement, but in actual combat you have to alter it to make it work it becomes questionable to me.

I know some things in every system you have to alter to make it work, but when it becomes many, and I am in martial arts not only for the art but also self defense, I am going to search for a system that provides me with what it is I am looking for in characteristics.

Robinf
10-15-2000, 07:44 PM
I'd like to pose a question, since it was mentioned about Wah Lum, and it's been mentioned about many other arts, that there are techniques some folks don't see as viable for "combat" or self-defense.

Question is: what makes these techniques not useful, or impractical?

With enough practice, wouldn't anything be useful and practical?

Honest questions.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Papieboni
10-17-2000, 11:00 PM
Robin,

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, I dont know if you have fought very much, if you have, im sure it has been with gloves, in the atmosphere in your school with a emphasis on kick boxing/sparring with rules and respect for your opponent, (fel free to correct me if im wrong)

But in a REAL fight, simple and direct almost always when. There is no rules, time is very short, there is no respect for you, and there definitely are no rules. people mean to harm you in the fastest, easiest and brutal way they can.
they aim to scratch you, poke you, claw you, spit on you, break what they can, and etc..,,

There is no time for splits, butterfly kicks and excessive high kicks and all of the sort. a good seasoned street fighter will tear you to shreds.

Dont misundestand me, those things are good and pretty and serve their purpose. It all depends on what you are in MA for.

If you are studying it for self defense you should find a art and a teacher thate mpasize that. If its competion you shuld find a school that empasize competiveness and good form execution.

adam
10-18-2000, 06:29 AM
Can someone please explain more about high kicks etc used in a street fight.

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Robinf
10-18-2000, 03:24 PM
You are correct, KickingMantis, the only "fighting" I've ever had to do was in the kwoon--we don't wear gloves, though so we can use our hands.

We also train in self-defense drills which are very straightfoward and to the point. My sifu even goes so far as to help me train a bit more with different drills because I have long hair--a target. For the most part, the kicks (or knee), if any, are to the groin. I find that practicing high kicks has helped make my low kicks and knee strikes more powerful.

But, even though a person has never used a butterfly kick in a street fight, does that mean it won't work in a street fight? Just because one person hasn't used it, I feel, doesn't mean that it won't work. What works is what you practice.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

KeyEssence
10-18-2000, 06:52 PM
So Wah Lum is a performance art huh............I must say that is one of the most humorous things I've heard in a while. Ok First lets not forget the founder of the system Grandmaster Lee Kwan Shan who was a famous bodyguard in China who killed people for a living (performance art????????) Lets also put into consideration the current Grandmaster Chan Pui who is one of the most respected and feared masters in China, who's conflicts (which have been witnessed) ended in either death or paralysis (performance art????????) Now lets think just a little about training, now is it not true if you practice kicking relatively high if you deliver a low side kick to someone's knee won't it be much more powerful? Look at Wushu for instance, obviously a style geared more towards "performance" but your telling me one of those guys kicks you in the skull and your not going to feel it.....Your head will probably detach from your torso!! Splits are merely for flexibility and obviously hold no fighting application. Butterfly kicks which could be used in fighting but are not recommended, provide extra agility and balance, two key principle in combat. All of these techniques which appear to be mere "flash" hold much importance in piecing together all the qualities a "good" fighter must encompass. Practicing these techniques provides the practitioner with extra strength, increased power and a heightened sense of balance, all again which are beneficial in combat....I do agree in some sense that all martial arts are becoming more "performance related in some respects" the "old" ways of hard-core training seem to be fading, yet a result of "us"and not the style.

Mantis_Hand
10-18-2000, 07:50 PM
i don't think there was any offense intended in this post. I'm also involved in Wah Lum and I admit that our style is "pretty" but is that such a bad thing? It in no way means that our style is inferior... we just kick ass with style.

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woliveri
10-18-2000, 08:12 PM
Lets also put into consideration the current Grandmaster Chan Pui who is one of the most respected and feared masters in China, who's conflicts (which have been witnessed) ended in either death or paralysis (performance art????????)


Whoa, whoa, whoa there..... Where did you hear
this? Who did Master Chan Kill and for what
reason? I'll agree with respected but "feared"?
I haven't seen any of it.

bill

Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East
By Baird T. Spalding

Papieboni
10-18-2000, 08:19 PM
Robin,

I am happy to know that you guys are touching hands in your kwoon. As I said before in a previous post, that it requires additional time and effort from the instructor and the student and a greater understanding of applying the techniques and theories from your system and its forms.

Robin and Key Essence,

(Key Essence, seem to be a little defensive and edgy like most people on this forum, I dont know why its a discussion, and the purpose of discussions is to discuss, communicate and learn and look at various points of view, I am going to assume he must not know much about himself(young) or the system he studies.)

I agree when you do high kicks, butterfly kicks, long movements they are beneficial in developing
other attributes that is necessary in martial combat. I am sure they have their purpose.

I have a fairly new class and I start them out in Wah Lum basics and exercises to teach them proper stances, punches, kicking methods, tam tui leg drills and etc..,, and when the class improves I will probably teach them sets from the Wah Lum tradition that has the flashy movements in them. will I emphasis them for self defencs? I surely will not. ou have the option to do as you please.

Key Essence.

I am no Grandmaster Lee Kwan Shan, Master Chan Poi or Grandmaster Lo Gwan Yu or Master Chu Chi Man and neither or you or anyone on this forum. So to compare what they did in a time where the platform, attitude, thoughts and values of Chinese Martials arts was different is not even relevant.

First, Those people literally dedicated their lives to the martial arts and they depended on it to protect their village, property, family and the borders of their country. I don't depend on it in such a way and neither do you. In my martial arts journey I am attempting to achieve a level where I can depend on it for self defense demonstration and maybe competition ever so often.
So you see, the sentiment is different now.

The time and effort that we put towards the martial arts will never equal to what our ancestors did, because that was their life and they depended on it. i wake up go to work, then school after school homework and go to bed and try to sqeeze whatever work out in that I can in between and on the few nights that I can. It is different than doing martial arts everyday for 4-8 hours a day. This is also a variable.

I am sure that Master Chan Poi is a respected Sifu. My previous instructor always shared stories with us regarding this, However, Feared?,
I dont know?, remember that he came from China and eventually to Hong Kong too, and he cow tows to someone as well thats more senior than himself in the Wah Lum family in Hong Kong and China.

Key Essence,

Yes I do agree kicking high, tumbling and doing long movements does help develop other attributes such as power, speed, balance, coordination and such. and nothing is wrong with that, but if you are going to fight?, example,try using a butterfly kick, see what happens to you when u land and you bring your head up.But, most people tend to use what they are taught. If you practice a certain way thats the way usually you are going to fight, we are creatures of habit and what we do over and over again is what sticks in our mind.

In tournaments overseas in Northern Okinawa on Camp Butler, I've seen Tae Kwon Do guys and Kung Fu guys get pulled from the air by Okinawan Karate fighters and punched and thrown to the floor. Strong legs does nothing for you if you dont have power and speed and the know how to use it in combat.

In Okinawa, for the small time I was there I trained with this Japanese gentlemen that taught Hsing Yi, Tai Chi and BaGua. His son and daughter was incredible, they could lift lift their legs from the ground straight up over there head with no hands and do one legged dai tam tuis all day. (incredible strengh and flexible) however, when we pushed hands and fought they sucked.

Wushu, different story, I think it speaks for its self. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 10-19-00 at 01:26 PM.]

Robinf
10-18-2000, 08:52 PM
The tam tui sets are killers! I mean that in a practicing sense, once again, never had to use them in self defense. But, do you imagine, sine we're on the topic, that the tam tui kick would work. I mean, you're putting yourself in a dangerous spot, low to the ground, if you use it, but it can be a powerful kick to the groin. Suppose you are ducking higher techniques, punches or something.

Just imagining.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

MiamiMantis
10-18-2000, 11:42 PM
Since I started this topic, i'll add my 2 cents again. I questioned Kicking Mantis on what he meant about Wah Lum as a perfromance art, and he explained it to me with a satisfactory answer. I know that his post was not meant to offend anyone in WahLum. Hey I'll admit WahLum looks flashy, but then again don't alot of Northern styles?. Look at Eagle Claw, a very effective system but at the same time the forms are nice to watch. What about Monkey?. The forms are really neat to watch, but a true Monkey stylist is one to be dealt with very carefully. And the Wu Shu stylist, yeah there forms are all over the place and they need a room the size of a football field to show their forms, but look at the speed at which they move. Look at how high they can kick and how fast they punch. If they were to use that in a practical application, I'm sure I would not want to be on the recieving end of their technique nor would anybody else in the forum.

Also by the way who did Master Chan kill or paralyze. That I would really like to know. That must be a bonus question for extra credit when testing.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Robinf
10-19-2000, 03:32 PM
You ever get the feeling that all of kung fu is deadly, that what we think is "pretty" or "flashy" is actually our human desire for destruction.

Just a passing thought that I'd love to be able to discuss. I know the original post was answered a long time ago, but going off topic into others is a lot of fun and informative--really makes me think.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Papieboni
10-19-2000, 09:29 PM
Robin,

Please explain further.........."What we think is pretty or flashy is actually our human desire for destruction!"
Interesting concept.
Also I think you are right, I think all martial art is geared toward combat, some looks at it in a different approach and I am sure they are all useful in some way.

Robinf
10-22-2000, 03:33 PM
Hi KickingMantis,

What I mean is, a lot of folks consider "flashy kicks" such as butterfly and hurricane kicks, and kicks to the head, as useless in real street situations--noone appears to have tried them, they just make the blanket statement. What I'm proposing is that these "flashy" techniques are in fact as useful on the street as any, but because we are so stunned by the beauty we think that those techniques can't possibly work. Kind of like underestimating the evil that could exist in a truly good-looking person.

Just a passing thought.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

Papieboni
10-22-2000, 08:12 PM
I am sure some of those kicks you just mentioned will work i know in fact they will and some others may work if you are fighting against a non-seasoned fighter. "I am usually a kicker and i love stepping to the side and using the RAAT MAY TUI or Cut Eye Brow Kick, only because I can use it with the opponent being able to undetect it.(Kwai May Tui)Inside crescents to the head I would never use unless i am VERY up close and inside to the opponent. Butterfly kicks? if u have mastered it try it see if it works for you.

i have used high kicks on people that really know how to fight or use really low stances to fight and have almost causght myself in a jam because they simply go low right underneath the kick and hands are usually faster than feet and it takes a person longer to retrct the kick than for a person to throw a punch.

This is why for combat I try to stick to the kicks that I know works for me or low kicks that are simple and flows right into other techniques easily, Chin Tui, Dong Tui, Fu May Tui, Chom Sum Tui and Raat May Tui and of course a simple back kick always work for me ( or the Spinning back) kick.

Personally, in combat, I just try to stay away from things that are long and leaves me open.

So, I am not using blanket statements, I know what works for me and for what I am trying to achieve and I have found that the more flashy and long the technique the more it usually leaves me open to get hit and swept more.

Of course these things will work on beginner and intermediate students, they will make you look like an expert, but, when you fight someone that knows how to fight personally, I think your going to find yourself in trouble, especially on the streets when you cant afford to make mistakes like you can in your school on sparring night.

I will repeat what I said again, Usually, how we fight in our kwoon or dojo is how we are going to react on the streets for the most part.

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 10-23-00 at 01:18 PM.]

typhoon_011
10-27-2000, 09:39 PM
I practice N. Shaolin and I've been in it for five years. My style is a northern style and that's why I'm here. I've heard excellent things about the Wah Lum school over the years. It has an outstanding reputation. I agree with some of the above comments about high kicks. High kicks are not often useful in a fight. But let me say some words about how and when they could be used. In my view the only time they could be used is from outside gate. If you are at inside gate you should not try them. An opponent will just punch you repeatedly. The other problem is the opponent rushes forward as you kick. This is called jamming. It's a basic and effective tactic. Your kick impacts the opponent but their is no power because he is closer to you now than when you launched the kick. Jamming also works against punches. But it's easier to keep attacking with punches than with kicks for obvious reasons. Your balance is compromised with kicks and you can end up on the ground if the guy crashes into you.

High kicks are one thing, and jumping kicks are another. High kicks make sense as a training tool as they make low kicks more powerful. Jumping kicks could be used in combat where high kicks would fail. Jumping kicks combined with bridging motions(arm controlling) could take someone out, but again only from outside gate. I would say that a jump kick should be combined with a bridging motion every time. If you're at outside gate that prevents a lot of counterattacks from the other guy.

Real fights happen in close. That's why it's easier to jump kick high or kick low than to kick at waist level(groin included). Try it. If you are up close to an opponent the jump kick allows a high kick and it's an evasive move at the same time. As long as you include something to grab/check an arm with as you go up. I repeat that I would only do this from outside gate. And the way to get to outside get is to engage the opponent while stepping. You can't just try to walk around the guy. You'll never succeed without having arm contact first. If you get that then you slip outside and employ a jump kick. I wouldn't try this too often but I think it could work.

I'm not an experienced fighter(street) but I've been there. I will admit that I've never tried a jump kick in a real fight. I'm just reasoning with you as to how it could work. I think one problem is that people who can jump kick often don't realize the importance of controlling the opponents arms. They act like kickboxers and they get stomped when the other guy just rushes them. I also agree that all fighting is in-fighting, but that doesn't exlude the possibility of a jump kick. In fact it makes bridging motions more important. There are too many people in northern styles who think that they way to move around is to just use footwork. No way. You have to go at him, tie up arms, and then step to outside gate while remaing close. You have to keep contact with someone(arm to arm) if you want to anticipate and stop what they're trying to do.

Touranments are the other problem. People become convinced of myths about different ranges. You can't stand back in a real fight because there is nothing to prevent the guy from rushing you. So you have to adapt any technique(including jump kicks) to in-fighting. That's why forms are so important! They contain these arm checking movements and bridging techniques that allow you to get to outside gate. If you don't see that then you won't get the point of northern styles. Northern styles fight at the same range everyone else does: street fighting/in-fighting range. they just approach combat differently.
A lot of knife hand and palm strikes(as well as sweeps and kicks) work nicely in outside gate. But first you have to be able to get there. And you have to understand that you'll still be fighting in close no matter what style you do. Don't confuse sport with street.

typhoon_011
10-27-2000, 10:07 PM
When I talk about inside and outside gate above I am talking about whether you are in front of the guy (between his arms) or to the side/back of him(outside his arms). If you fight in close it's not that hard to get to the side of someone. If you try to hang back you will never do it because the distance is greater. Think of a circle. A smaller circle has a smaller circumference. That's why you want to be in close. Because you can move all over the place(change angles) with just a step.

Let's talk about spinning punches and kicks. Everyone says they are a waste of time. They say things like 'don't turn your back on an opponent". But they are still thinking in terms of sport fighting where you are far away from the guy. If you are in close you can step off line and spin very quickly. Because you're hardly moving. Combining this with checking/bridging(I could say blocking)motions does a lot to stop the guy from taking advantage of the situation.

Northern styles use big movements in their forms. But in a real fight you are in close. Northern styles just approach the universal fighting range(in close) differently. But people who see tournaments and the like mistakenly believe that it's possible to fight at greater than arms length. They won't make the transition from sport to reality because they confuse the two. You have to start from the assumption that you are always in elbow to elbow contact with the guy you are fighting. No matter what you're style.

Papieboni
10-30-2000, 06:51 AM
I dont think i would ever advocate to a student to always assume you are in close range. There have been moments that I have wished that I was not in close range and chose alternate methods of attacks. This depends on the opponent in most to all cases. You can't make a standard assuption. I always keep in mind the size, strength, length of limbs, speed, timing,and the method of attack the opponent uses. Its not as simple in my opinion as inside and outside gate, although those are important.

For example, If I am fighting someone that has shorter limbs than I, and stronger and they are a better puncher, I dont want to be in the inside gate all that much. I will want to use my reach to my advantage and speed by going in and out. However, If the opponent is a kicker, has longer legs, longer limbs and are weaker then I may want to spend longer periods of time trying to infight because they feel comfortable kicking, if I am close their kicks are not as effective and their punches are not as strong.

Dreamer
11-04-2000, 12:32 AM
Spinning kicks and punches can be very useful. But you can't use it from a distance and when your opponent is ready for it. The time to use a spin is when you have the time. For example if you have just done a powerful punch or kick to the torso the opponent will be in a dizzy state for a short while. If you execute the spinning attack immediately and avoid high jumps so that you can stop the attack when you want you can be very successful in using spinning.

"The power lies not in what you do, but how you do it"

<font color = "#000033"> [b]D[b]reamer</font>

fuhok-kid
01-28-2006, 02:25 PM
tyhpoon_001, as a trained kicker, I like your thinking. I used to do taekwondo and got a lot of high kicks, jumping and spinning kicks. I think to use them on the steet, one must not only know how to use them, but be trained in their use in a defensive posture. I once met a taekwondo master at a seminar and in showing me a few self defence moves,both empty-hand and against weapons, he always threw spin kicks and high kicks. He was so fast, I never saw the kicks coming until it was too late to try and avoid them and I was knocked off my feet. I also took the other korean arts of hapkido and Han-pul and got a few lesson in using high kicks at close range(where most people aren't expecting them as they demand good flexibility). Especially when combined with a series of joint-locks. From my tournament experience, I learnt that to deliver a good high kick, speed must be your best friend. Also I'd rather use them after throwing a hand technique, or low kick to hide your high kick. Again, speed is your best friend. How does that translate on the street, well for starters, the average joe isn't a trained fighter so there is a good chance a good kicker can have good results with high kicks. Secondly, I like to think of an attacker as a trained fighter and treat them accordingly and would advocate using them as a follow on technique when the attacker would least expect. On the subject of this thread, I am currently training in wah lum and while it does have flashy forms, I see a lot of applications in them... if you take the time to break them down and practise them. I used to take traditional eagle claw and again, beautful , eye pleasing forms but very effective techniques in the forms.. again with practise can be used for self defence. Case in point, the wah lum flute form. Very beautiful and flowing. But dissect it and one can see applicable techniques for using a short stick or rolled up newpaper. It is my understanding that the reasons alot of TMA forms appear to be filled with apparently useless movements,is to hide the true techniques. Anyone who take a look at ancient china will see it filled with secret societies and family styles that were ment to be kept within a family. In that sense, it make sense to hide ones techniques so a public demo will not give away anything but a series of good looking movements that are useless in a fight. In ending my little rant here, I'd say every art is as good as the individual. If someone isn't a good kicker,has never attempted to work on them for self defence applications, doesn't have the speed and power such kicks demand for maximum damage and effectiveness and tries to throw high kicks on the street, they are in for a nasty surprise. If someone trains in kungfu and doesn't spend the time to see how to use or alter the techniques in the forms for self-defence, again they will be in for a shocker on the street.

phoenixdog
01-28-2006, 04:41 PM
I saw a kuk sool won instructor spin kick a dude across the street in a fight outside a bar in new orleans.They carted the dude away in an ambulance.Thought he was dead.

fuhok-kid
01-29-2006, 03:31 PM
I think that guy was just knocked unconconcious. It goes back to what I said in my last post. Joe schmoe on the street is not as trained or in fighting shape as an MA who regularly engages in sparring and a good placed high kick from an accomplished kicker, will take them out of the fight. I've been caught with a spinning heel kick to my jaw during a sparring session back in TKD days. It almost knocked me out and definitely rung my bells. It was bare hands and feet sparring with no protective gear to soften the hit so I know how it feels to catch a spin kick you don't see coming till it was too late.

TaiChiBob
01-30-2006, 04:50 AM
Greetings..

It comes down to this.. what is any system's record of producing winning fighters..

Wah Lum, as a very large system with many schools, should be presenting respected fighters at most tournaments.. In my experience with the system, Troy P. was the last truly respected fighter representing Wah Lum, and the majority of his fighting skills were developed outside the system..

If a system is called a "Martial Art", it needs to represent itself as such.. Under the direction of GM Chan Pui Wah Lum was capable of producing the best of the best (if you were determined to be worthy of the teachings).. but, its "under new management", now.. and, time will tell whether it survives in its former glory..

Any system can live on good marketing for only so long.. at some point though, evidence is required to back-up the marketing, the tales and stories.. its not about what the system was.. its about what it is today..

Anyone who knows me knows how much i truly respect GM Chan Pui, he earned his respect long before i got into the system.. now, it's time for the "new management" to earn its respect..

Be well..

Hua Lin Laoshi
01-30-2006, 05:50 AM
about fighting arts and performance arts. Any CMA can be a fighting art OR performance art. It isn't the art itself but how you play it and how you train it.

For the Wah Lum peeps out there, shorten your moves, raise stances and apps will make more sense. For others, lengthen your moves, lower your stances and go overboard with all your techniques and it will look fancy like WL.

That's about it, plus change angles and turns with no regard for fighting sense when creating forms for show.

There's nothing inherent about Wah Lum that makes it flashy or performance orientated. It looks that way because of how it's played and how it's trained.

When you see a WL performance they're really pushing the flash. I've seen forms put together with nothing but all the flashiest moves (they all have one or two) from all the forms together in one.

Before you bash the flashy moves though realize that they are the same as in other recognized, legitimate styles. WL isn't the only one with high kicks.

As I told a student of a competing NPM school at a local tourney a few years back when she complained that, once again, her school wasn't winning. I told her to lower her stances and elaborate all the moves. She didn't want to do that and preferred to stay true to her style.

I agree with her but if wwinning is important that's what you have to do. When I judge I score low when I see a bunch of flash and butt-dragging stances. It's up to the Sifus and judges to get this 'flash wins' under control.

Judge Pen
01-30-2006, 06:15 AM
It's not WL, but. . . .

As my teacher tells it, the really low stances and high kicks aren't indicative of the actual application. They are as much for training as anything. The actual effective application may be higher, but if you can train the move at an ankle high stance, then you are building greater strength, flexibility, and range of motion. Same with high kicks: The don't always work, but if you can throw it high, then its faster when you throw it lower. As such, the forms show these techniques at their maximum, not necessarily at their application effective motion.

It has the side effect of being pretty.

Ou Ji
01-30-2006, 09:03 AM
Good point JP but there are 2 schools of thought here.

One believes in overdoing things for practice while the other says you fight like you train so do everything exactly how you would use it.

I see values in both so I'm a bit undecided. I think I lean towards overdoing things. If you're going to fight 2 min rounds practice doing 3+ min rounds.

So for groin kicks should you practice them in your form at groin level or kick 2 feet higher?

In the case of the higher kick a groin shot might not be apparent when watching. That might lead some to believe the player doesn't know what he's doing.

While that could be true it's not a given.

If you practice kicking higher does that mean it won't work?

Judge Pen
01-30-2006, 09:17 AM
So for groin kicks should you practice them in your form at groin level or kick 2 feet higher?

In the case of the higher kick a groin shot might not be apparent when watching. That might lead some to believe the player doesn't know what he's doing.

While that could be true it's not a given.

If you practice kicking higher does that mean it won't work?

As for kicks, there are certain times my teacher will tell me this kick is lower because its intended to attack the knee or it is a downward cutting kick etc. but there are times where the kick is intended to go through the groin and the form looks to be a over-the-head straight leg kick. So the "kicking higher to kick all ranges better" idea is not absolute, but its a rule of thumb at my school.

mantiskilla
01-30-2006, 11:53 AM
"You ever get the feeling that all of kung fu is deadly, that what we think is "pretty" or "flashy" is actually our human desire for destruction."

that must be it.:rolleyes:
________
MEDICAL MARAJUANA DISPENSARY (http://dispensaries.org)

green_willow
02-01-2006, 04:30 AM
"You ever get the feeling that all of kung fu is deadly, that what we think is "pretty" or "flashy" is actually our human desire for destruction."

that must be it.:rolleyes:

I've never used butterfly kicks before. Can they serve the purpose of clearing away masses of people?

mantid1
02-01-2006, 05:13 AM
Do a butterfly kick on a heavy bag and give us a report back and let us know what happens:)

Butterfly kicks are more for training coordination, timing, flexiblility and strength. The practical use could be a counter on a throw or MAYBE avioding a low technique.

WL seems to incorporate physical conditioning into their fighting forms.

It replaces some of the cross training you would do like running and leg strengthing exercises into the fighting forms. This does not mean you still should not run or lift.

If you have a good instructor who understands the fighting and how to apply what is in the stystem this should not be a problem. The most important thing is having a qualified instructor. This goes for any system.

mantiskilla
02-01-2006, 08:45 AM
"I've never used butterfly kicks before. Can they serve the purpose of clearing away masses of people?"

Possibly from laughter...but then the person would have to land sometime.



"Do a butterfly kick on a heavy bag and give us a report back and let us know what happens"

I like that idea. Sounds very scientific...my hypothesis is that you'll bust your @ss.
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yu shan
02-01-2006, 09:05 AM
Good to see you posting again mantiskilla. Do you have aerials in your Dragon Style? I have yet to see these kicks in the Mantis that I am learning.

mantiskilla
02-01-2006, 09:27 AM
Hey Yushan

no. there are a lot more kicks than people think, but nothing along those lines (from what i have seen so far). no butterfly kicks in Pong Lai? that is not surprising to me. almost ran into the Tampa Wah Lum school on sunday while we, and they, were doing lion dance in sarasota...we were at my sifus restaurant...they were watching from the other side of the parking lot when they were finished, but packed up and left without saying hi. looked like some of the students wanted to come over and watch, but probably weren't allowed. maybe next year.
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green_willow
02-02-2006, 04:58 AM
"I've never used butterfly kicks before. Can they serve the purpose of clearing away masses of people?"

Possibly from laughter...but then the person would have to land sometime.



"Do a butterfly kick on a heavy bag and give us a report back and let us know what happens"

I like that idea. Sounds very scientific...my hypothesis is that you'll bust your @ss.

But unlike a heavy bag - you're counting on the people to get outta way. they're not going to be standing around when kicks are flying at full speed at head height are they?

Butterfly kicks are definately "move outta way" moves. It might not hit anything but that's not the point, its the fear factor of ppl afraid of being hit that earns you the credits.

A lot about fighting is knowing how to posture, to bluff and double bluff - like poker the person who folds first loses regardless of what card he / she has.

mantiskilla
02-02-2006, 05:10 AM
green willow

"But unlike a heavy bag - you're counting on the people to get outta way. they're not going to be standing around when kicks are flying at full speed at head height are they? "

Maybe, maybe not. this idea may be crazy, but some people actually train against kicks. If I change my angle a little, there could be a nasty surprise inside. If you are counting on people backing out everytime you kick, you could be surprised.


you are making a lot of suppositions, so i will make one of my own. If someone turns their back on me, I am moving in. The kick will not get off the ground, and the person will probably have my knee in their face. now...if i am too slow to move in, you are probably right, I will back out or change angles instead of sitting in the same spot waiting for the person to do whatver it is they are considering. I cant believe that you are seriously entertaining this idea though.

"It might not hit anything but that's not the point, its the fear factor of ppl afraid of being hit that earns you the credits."

Are you talking about a video game? I thought the point was to hurt the other person more than they hurt you. You get the 'credits' when they stop fighting.


"A lot about fighting is knowing how to posture, to bluff and double bluff - like poker the person who folds first loses regardless of what card he / she has."

if you are talking about feints, and setting up other moves ok...but it doesnt sound like that is what you are talking about. if you think that i am going to run away because someone pulls a butterfly kick...it is going to be just the opposite effect. fighting is not like poker. when you get hit, or hit the other person...that is it. the cards are on the table and you know immediately if you are in trouble or in control. you can feel it.
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yu shan
02-02-2006, 05:56 AM
There is no way in h*ll I`m leaving my feet during a fight. I want my feet firmly planted, ready to move.

TaiChiBob
02-02-2006, 06:20 AM
Greetings..

MC once said that some of the aerial techniques were used to take a rider off his horse..

Aerial techniques are flashy ways to finish an already stunned or injured opponent.. but, unwise to employ against a capable opponent.. Aerial techniques give the practitioner confidence and good training in coordination, they also add stability to grounded applications..

Mostly, though, aerial techniques preserve the Art..

Be well..

Judge Pen
02-02-2006, 08:11 AM
There is no way in h*ll I`m leaving my feet during a fight. I want my feet firmly planted, ready to move.

Amen. They're fun in forms, but have limited application agasint a trained fighter. IN some circumstances a skip or jump kick may work, but you would have to pick those times very carefully.

Butterfly kicks may be a counter to a throw or a way to avoid a low technique. If your really lucky you might use it to gain momentum on a kick at the end, but your plant leg would be firmly rooted at that point. I'm not good enough to actually try that technique in a live situation though.

isol8d
02-02-2006, 11:00 AM
There is no way in h*ll I`m leaving my feet during a fight. I want my feet firmly planted, ready to move.

Some exceptional martial artists have some "aerial" moves that work. Cung Le's scissor kick comes to mind.

I'd rather knock someone off their feet than leave the ground personally. Gravity and pizza have seen to it that I remain that way.

yu shan
02-02-2006, 03:25 PM
isol8d

You are so right, Cung Le`s scissor take down move is very effective.

LOL, gotcha on the pizza and gravity thing, a constant battle.

Chop Socki
02-02-2006, 09:29 PM
3 pages of discussion on the relative merits of a butterfly kick in a real fight? Amazing. Your creativity and dedication to ideals is what brings me back to this forum time after time. ;)

I think I'll side with those who believe that while you can certainly puzzle out some semi-useful theoretical scenario like avoiding sweeps, leaping barrels rolled down a ramp at you by a giant gorilla who's kidnapped your girlfriend, etc. the true value of a butterfly kick is for training (balance, leg strength, body awareness...) and perhaps to add some flair to a performance form. In close-fitting jeans and sole-worn sneakers in a bar crowded with tables and a beer-soaked floor, and without having had the benefit of a few minutes to stretch out first, my feet will stay firmly planted on the floor 90% of the time, and the kicks that I do throw will be targeted at or below the waist.

- CS

green_willow
02-03-2006, 05:10 AM
green willow

"But unlike a heavy bag - you're counting on the people to get outta way. they're not going to be standing around when kicks are flying at full speed at head height are they? "

Maybe, maybe not. this idea may be crazy, but some people actually train against kicks. If I change my angle a little, there could be a nasty surprise inside. If you are counting on people backing out everytime you kick, you could be surprised.


you are making a lot of suppositions, so i will make one of my own. If someone turns their back on me, I am moving in. The kick will not get off the ground, and the person will probably have my knee in their face. now...if i am too slow to move in, you are probably right, I will back out or change angles instead of sitting in the same spot waiting for the person to do whatver it is they are considering. I cant believe that you are seriously entertaining this idea though.

"It might not hit anything but that's not the point, its the fear factor of ppl afraid of being hit that earns you the credits."

Are you talking about a video game? I thought the point was to hurt the other person more than they hurt you. You get the 'credits' when they stop fighting.


"A lot about fighting is knowing how to posture, to bluff and double bluff - like poker the person who folds first loses regardless of what card he / she has."

if you are talking about feints, and setting up other moves ok...but it doesnt sound like that is what you are talking about. if you think that i am going to run away because someone pulls a butterfly kick...it is going to be just the opposite effect. fighting is not like poker. when you get hit, or hit the other person...that is it. the cards are on the table and you know immediately if you are in trouble or in control. you can feel it.

Yes but people who train in kicks also train in dealing with people who have trained to deal in kicks. get the point.

Basically you might think right - this is a butterfuly kick and you side step. Don't forget, I'm spinning in mid air and I bet my rotation is faster than you moving on the ground. All I need to do is throw out a side kick at 90 degrees to where i'm moving and you'll cop a side kick square across the face.

Next time you might decide to stand still but that's what the butterfly kick is good for - the sissoring action is great for a head high take down. it can snap the neck - serious stuff.

In anycase there is the jumping tornado kick which clears the space 360 degrees. There's no where to hide if you come close. Following the tornado kick is the iron broom which sweeps low at 360 degrees. It's good to take down grapplers who try for a take down.

Yes it's like poker - high stakes but ok - no sweat - when I hold all the aces and you'll be left with the jokers.

meltdawn
02-03-2006, 06:15 AM
Following the tornado kick is the iron broom which sweeps low at 360 degrees. It's good to take down grapplers who try for a take down.
i remember watching Jeff Bolt's tourneys in the '80s when helmets were just "suggestions". there was one guy who kept trying sweeps, and his opponent would just drop and land on the dude's knee, mid-sweep. it would have been funny if it didn't look so painful. call me crazy, but sweeping a grappler seems like leaving the door unlocked for Ted Bundy.

mantiskilla
02-03-2006, 06:36 AM
Green willow

ok.
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green_willow
02-03-2006, 03:11 PM
i remember watching Jeff Bolt's tourneys in the '80s when helmets were just "suggestions". there was one guy who kept trying sweeps, and his opponent would just drop and land on the dude's knee, mid-sweep. it would have been funny if it didn't look so painful. call me crazy, but sweeping a grappler seems like leaving the door unlocked for Ted Bundy.

I've seen TKD vs garppler matches in the UFC where the TKD guy does a flying kick over the grappler when he's going down for the legs. It was bloddy effective, a bit like a matador baiting a bull. sometimes the matador wins, some times the bull wins.