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View Full Version : No-holds-barred Kung Fu tournament



Richie
10-28-2001, 04:24 AM
Would anyone be interested in entering or watching a no holds barred kung fu tournament? I mean only kung fu, and not Kimpo or any only modified stuff. In addition to that, you must use the style you practice. For example, if you do Ba Gua, you can't fight like a kick boxer.

Would anyone be interested? :D

Xebsball
10-28-2001, 04:28 AM
That would be fun.
If you do such thing please put it on the internet for us to watch :)

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

Watchman
10-28-2001, 04:30 AM
Is this just an idea, or do you have an event planned?

If this is planned, then please post details as to location, date, rules, etc.

Thanks.

Ozihn
10-28-2001, 04:39 AM
That would be pretty **** cool.

wushu chik
10-28-2001, 04:47 AM
Are we talking sanshou or a NHB tourney?? I would be really interested, I am ready to start competing again!

Kung Lek
10-28-2001, 04:51 AM
You're kidding right?

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

mantis king
10-28-2001, 04:56 AM
I am the first to admit that your idea sounds good, in theory but unless there is people out there that know kung fu and are willing to die your suggestion will never work. And there would not be too many takers. For that reason you would have to implement rules. These rules would limit some styles and the fights would turn out to look like kick-boxing.
Tournaments often look like kick-boxing matches even thought there are different styles in the match. This is because they are under kick boxing rules therefore the scoring system is in favour of kick-boxing techniques so one would be stupid not to implement a kick-boxing approach to the match.
So it would be hard to make up rules that are not like those of kick-boxing, and that would allow full use of kung fu techniques and would still be safe.

max power

Watchman
10-28-2001, 04:57 AM
Hello Wushu Chik! ;) ;)

P.S. You know me. :cool:

buddhapalm
10-28-2001, 05:59 AM
What exactly do you mean by no-holds barred though. Elbows, eye pokes, throat and groin strikes allowed ??

What do you have in mind ?

chokeyouout2
10-28-2001, 07:27 AM
How would probable death dissuade people from entering?

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

wushu chik
10-28-2001, 07:44 AM
Thanks for noticing lil ol' me!! :) And Vasco, can't we all just get along??

Richie
10-28-2001, 07:58 AM
The rules of such an event would be realistic. The term NHB is a relative term. Eye attacks, throat attacks and certain pressure point attacks would not be allow. However, elbows, knees, and Chin na would be allowed. Groin attacks will probably not be allowed, because the problems other NHB tournaments had. Also, If it goes to the ground and there is no finishing move or quick technique, the fighters will have to seperate and stand up.

You also must prove the validity of your skills. Not just anyone with a black sash can enter. I feel it is very important that it isn't kick boxing. I've seen fighters who say that they do a style and their sparring and fighting is THAT style.

I feel the problem is that there is a lot of crap out there and when people see that crap, they think that Chinese martial arts is crap. This is not true. CMA is probably the best MA out there

As for is this tournament in the making? It's still on the drawing board. I've talked to a few people, but I haven't spoken to any promoter yet. I want to know if this is a good idea or a waste of time.

joedoe
10-28-2001, 08:11 AM
Sounds good in principle.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

brassmonkey
10-28-2001, 09:15 AM
Well since no eye or groin strikes this would be good for everyone except a kung fu man...don't tell me your not going to allow dim mak and empty force strikes either.

Kristoffer
10-28-2001, 09:21 AM
sounds like a great ideè! BUT,, u should have alowed groin strikes and preasure points. that will make it more like Kung fu u know?

What u should do, for real I mean. Tazlk to some respective masters, instructors that u know of. e-mejl as many as u can find about this idee and try to find people that are willing to enter first.

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

SevenStar
10-28-2001, 09:24 AM
What exactly would the point be? You have stated that there will be rules - which for safety reasons there have to be - so it's really not reality fighting and seems like it would most likely resemble pride or some other currently existing tourneys. If a kung fu stylist would enter that, he may as well give pride a try also. Also, that will help in giving a bas rep to kung fu, as people will say "They will only fight if they are fighting other kung fu styles. Why won't they fight a thai boxer or submission grappler?" By limiting the styles that can enter, you once again take away from the reality, as in the street chances are yoor opponent will not be someone trained in CMA.

"Also, If it goes to the ground and there is no finishing move or quick technique, the fighters will have to seperate and stand up."

Does that mean no ground and pound? that also takes away from the reality of the event. this would be nothing more than full contact continuous sparring, from the sounds of it.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

SifuAbel
10-28-2001, 10:45 AM
I agree, any style should be able to compete. The burden would still be up to us kung fu guys to show the stuff. And that's all that this thread is about; Getting a better rep for kung fu.

I never liked the clinche and stop of the kickboxing.

The only foul rules would be no eye strikes or blinds. Moderate groin strikes, both must wear cup. Death, of course, would disqualify you and your opponent.

The only rules for fighting for both striking and locking would be a general ban on techniques that lead to permanent or life threatening damage, in other words, nothing that would be designed to maim instantly and with little force.

All clawing, soft tissue manipulations, stiking of any variety with any part of the body, hard takedowns, submissions, "real time" continuity, are allowed at any point in the match.

No stopping for takedowns. Allowing attacks on the recovering man. All striking allowed to grounded opponents while standing or earthlevel.

Are you immortal?

sifuabel@yahoo.
com

Wongsifu
10-28-2001, 01:56 PM
you know considering there is enough trashy nhb events and stuff , and kung fu guys dont really like to enter them for obvious reasons like hmmm no i dont really want to crack open someones head with my iron palm, I cant see who would spar in this "ancient kung fu competition"

OH except for mcdojo guys and wushu practitioners who will give kung fu a bad name !

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Daredevil
10-28-2001, 02:09 PM
Good points from Seven Star, SifuAble and Wong.

Basically, why not just enter a typical NHB competition? It would do lots more for bettering kungfu's public rep.

SifuAble proposes a nice set of rules, though.

I propose an addition of a time limit : 3 minutes (or maybe even less). If the fight isn't over in three minutes, it's a draw.

And SifuWong, I think that's the problem. It would attract the kungfu guys who really shouldn't be representing CMA.

However, theoretically, if the selection is tight it might get a few good entries. With a tight selection process it'll get judged as overly selective though and some parties will cry foul play.

Also, restricting pressure point striking might be a bit difficult.

Anyway, despite a lot of problems .. sure, why not.

Xebsball
10-28-2001, 02:35 PM
Vasco, people can die, thats a fact. People died in that tournament in 1928.
But i dont think it would keep people from entering, because today the probabilities of having death in such match is a lot smaller than in more than 60 years ago.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

Merryprankster
10-28-2001, 04:23 PM
Abel, Seven:

I agree with all of your points 100%! I wasn't even halfway through this thread when I thought "What does Kung Fu vs. Kung Fu prove?" Then Abel proposed his almost perfect set of rules (which incidentally look a LOT like the rules of the first 4 or so UFC's). I also agree with Abel that Kung Fu needs to lay the smack down in a public venue if it is to be taken seriously as a fighting art. I'm not saying Kung Fu can't, I'm saying it hasn't yet in a widely seen venue, and that raises doubts.

I propose a different set of rules though. No biting, fishhooking or eye gouging. All other techniques allowed. All ring tactics allowed (stalling, extremely defensive fighting,etc).

I have one more question: On what surface will this take place and in what type of enclosure? Ring? Cage? Fenced in like the Octagon?

Daredevil
10-28-2001, 04:37 PM
Don't know about the fencing or such, but the only real choice for the ground is hard - concrete or rock. That's a big nod towards realism.

Of course, that's gonna help all the grapplers out there too, who like bringing folks hard on the floor. :)

Concrete floor would make for interesting matches.

Wongsifu
10-28-2001, 04:58 PM
I think the best way to hold a kung fu competition is to have both opponents wearing one of those redman suits , where you can get kicked in the nuts and it wont hurt. This way even if you get some guy with iron palm he will bounce his opponent like 50 feet away with a strike and no one will get hurt...

:D :D :D

Btw Sifuabel what the hell is a LIGHT groin strike..

is it one that makes you go

:o

instead of

:eek:

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Wongsifu
10-28-2001, 05:04 PM
on a more serious note , the realism of the fight must be emulated , realism means that hitting a guy 3 times with gloves and causing no damage , subsequently being took down is very different from on the street hitting a guy 2 in the face is enough for him to need plastic surgery and face reconstruction , kimura wouldnt be able to throw you after that..

Also how do you win , when the only way a striker can win is by koein his opponent or killing him , whereas grapplers can apply 1032850297520 diferrent locks and the opponent just taps.

we should be able to balance this out by having point rules allocated like san shou where a throw is 3 points a strike is 1 ... only not so ****y.

I dont care what anyone says but the matter of the fact is , in the ring i might lose to gracie , but on the street i would kick him so hard in the nuts that he'll be spitting out spunk for a week.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Xebsball
10-28-2001, 05:12 PM
I'd like to see this in a Lei Tai because of the tradition thing, but i dont know if it would be the ideal place for the matches.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

FeloniousMonk
10-28-2001, 05:24 PM
When and where? No rules should apply at all! They're are no rules in kung-fu if there were rules it would be unrealistic. People in the competition should know not to kill someone, and any true master would know when to stop, anyway a true master wouldn't enter a tourney. What does a master have to prove?

The unbeatable Felonious Monk

Merryprankster
10-28-2001, 05:54 PM
I agree about the ground. It should be hard. What if you used something closer to a LIGHTLY padded wooden floor, akin to thin or medium weight carpet padding with some sort of surfacing? Grass or astroturf would also be excellent. You've now got something that will create almost as hard of an impact, but not so much bleeding, and grass/turf is not particularly unrealistic.

I disagree completely about the point system. Think about it: In a fight, you win when your opponent no longer poses a threat to you. For a stand-up style, this means a KO, or disabling your attacker in some other way, maybe knocking the wind out of him or executing a joint strike that leaves them unable to continue. The more grappler oriented guy will be looking to disable as well, but either with a takedown, or a joint lock.

Bare-knuckle only. Just for the record, gloves protect the HANDS not the head. You can punch MUCH harder with gloves on than without because you don't worry about breaking your hand. The blunt trauma impact of a gloved hand is far worse than most bare knuckle shots for that reason.

Felonious, have you yet considered that nobody takes you seriously? That said, I stand by my rules: No biting, no eye-gouges, no fish-hooks. All else is legal.

Jaguar Wong
10-28-2001, 05:54 PM
WongSifu,
LOL @ the "Light Groin Strike" emoticons. I think the light groin contact is the one where you have to say "hold up a sec" then everyone pauses for like...10 seconds when the effects kick in.

As for how strikers would win? Just like you said, KO. There's also submission by strikes (Ground and Pound), or just chopping away at the extremities until they can't continue (Like Mo Smith did to Tank, and Frank Shamrock did at his K-1 Debut). The whole point is that if you're just a striker, then you'll be at a disadvantage, because you can't control the pace of the game.

If your Kung Fu style has at least basic anti grappling principles then you can at least attempt to keep the fight standing in your neighborhood, but if you have good functional knowledge of striking and grappling (especially when mixed in healthy doses of punishment), then you can more easily stay relaxed and focused, so you can concentrate on where to take your opponent. If he's a better grappler, then your skills should be used defensively until you can open up some strikes, and make him change the game, but if he's a sharper/faster striker, it would be beneficial to stay in tight, and tie up his weapons (which is easier on the ground).

You see that's the point of Kung Fu, it's not to be better than everyone at every single thing, it's to be great at one aspect, but knowledgable about the rest in order to be prepared for any opponent.

"Think anything else and you playin' yo self"
- Jeru the Damaja

Jaguar Wong

Merryprankster
10-28-2001, 05:55 PM
Nice post Jaguar!

Watchman
10-28-2001, 05:56 PM
Merryprankster is correct.

LEGEND
10-28-2001, 06:00 PM
DOOD...this is just like UFC 1 thru 4. And in Brazil they had tournaments like this for years and years and years.

A

Merryprankster
10-28-2001, 06:02 PM
Exactly Legend. No different.

Where is Chantilly anyway?

Kristoffer
10-28-2001, 06:44 PM
1 VS 3

that would ROCK so hard man!

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

Xebsball
10-28-2001, 06:45 PM
The thing is in UFC i havent seen tradicional kung fu. I'v only seen that Jason guy and he didnt make any tradicional move.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

chokeyouout2
10-28-2001, 07:33 PM
Your a funny little man.Nice speculation on your part.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> in the ring i might lose to gracie , but on the street i would kick him so hard in the nuts that he'll be spitting out spunk for a week.
[/quote]

Whats all the antimocity towards the Gracie's for?Last time I checked those "Gracie" guys were professional fighters.Who in the hell are you?Here's a idea, put your silk kf jammies on an instead of talking, go kick someone in the balls.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

LEGEND
10-28-2001, 11:28 PM
CHANTILLY is in fairfax county before u hit 29! You train at LLOYD's rite??? We had a guy from LLOYD working out with my friend MIKE ACCOSTA...name HARRY( ??? ) was in the boxing program training for a LEI TEI tourney. Funny thing is I work out at OLYMPUS and reg. see the YAMASAKI boyz training...I would like to roll with them but u gotz to PAY...and CARL RUNK's rite now are having newbies play the game.

A

Wongsifu
10-29-2001, 12:56 AM
vasco first of all i dont have anything against gracie secondly , i would much prefer to be practising kung fu in my jammies rather than learning from a guy whos grandad had his arm broken when he challenged a real fighter and ever since then i made money off fooling people into thinking that my art wins by inviting some nobodies and beating them, woo hooo i invited a black belt from japan and video taped it , man thats so low , a black belt for fu(ks sake and gracie whoever it was has been practising for 25 years , thats like mike tyson picking on a 10 year old. And he was rolling around for 10 minuutes with the guy , the guy is a karateka for ****s sake.

professional fighter hmmmmm, plz

and in case you havent heard the news lately its who the hell is gracie now, or any one of his 50 kids

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Archangel
10-29-2001, 01:22 AM
"on a more serious note , the realism of the fight must be emulated , realism means that hitting a guy 3 times with gloves and causing no damage , subsequently being took down is very different from on the street hitting a guy 2 in the face is enough for him to need plastic surgery and face reconstruction , kimura wouldnt be able to throw you after that.."

This really shows how much you know about fighting. Wearing gloves protects the hands not the head, any fighter knows this; That is why amateurs wear head gear. Causing no damage, pulleeezzzeee; a boxing glove with a bigger surface area and weight causes more permanent damage than a fist that will break. Its true though that a glove is less likely to cause cuts than a bare fist, however any striker knows that it's easier to knock someone out wearing a glove.

"Also how do you win , when the only way a striker can win is by koein his opponent or killing him , whereas grapplers can apply 1032850297520 diferrent locks and the opponent just taps."

I striker can hit with and a fist, forearm, elbow, knee, foot, shin, heel, ridgheand, quad, calf etc. and in brazil the headbutt. literally 100123123324523 different strikes and combinations. It really doesn't sound that lopsided to me.

"we should be able to balance this out by having point rules allocated like san shou where a throw is 3 points a strike is 1 ... only not so ****y."

Oh, you want to have more rules.... how ironic coming from someone who says that MMA already has too many. Anyways, leave that point s h i t to the amateurs; The 10 point must system isn't perfect but it is a million times better than that.

jjj
10-29-2001, 03:37 AM
The hard floor would favor the grappler IMO. Being slammed or having a grappler mounted punching/elbowing you with a hard surface behind your head is bad news, you absorb the impact and/or smash your head on the floor. Plus having someone in the guard on concrete is not nearly as dangerous to the bottom person if they know BJJ, they may sweep you on your head and knock you out like mama said. Anyhow, since it is Kung Fu only we wont have to worry about that because no BJJ allowed right? No mount/guard or armbars etc. So I would expect it to look like Kung Fu Theater till someone takes it to the ground, then you see headlocks and the typical inexperienced flopping and rolling. LOL sounds entertaining, kinda like that guy from the old UFC, his name was Fred Ettish I think... ;)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

chokeyouout2
10-29-2001, 08:15 AM
Who got their arm broken?Who's grandad are you talking about?You are so unclear in your writings, I don't know what your talking about.Opinions can differ, but you are so off base it's borderline trolling.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

shinwa
10-29-2001, 09:25 AM
Forget all of that other styles stuff. I think this could be great for all of the Kung Fu guys out their who want to seriously improve their Kung fu. I mean a tournament where you're FORCED to use your style is great IMO. I think that's the difference between modern Kung Fu practioners and the old school. Today people like Jason Deluca say they do five animal Kung fu, but when they fight wherre the hell are the five animals? He's throwing round kicks, spinning heel kicks, jabs and crosses like any othern western/western influenced fighter. It'd be great if their were tournaments focused on ACTUALLY using your Kung Fu. Other styles have tourneys forcing them to use what they learn. Jujitsu guys have it, Judo guys have it, Kickboxers have it, Boxers have it. We don't. We need it. When you're watching any mioxed tournament and you're watching the suppoosed kung Fu guys get their asses handed to them on a silver platter it's because the jujitsu guy or Thai Fighter is using Jujitsu or thai Fighting. They have tournaments specifally meant for honing those skills. We have San Shou. Which is nowhere near Kung Fu.

Not the no rule crud though. That's just insane.
I think a tournmey like this would be freakin grand. And I'd look so forward into fighting in something of this nature.

Redundant post..I know.

tigerking
10-29-2001, 04:54 PM
Enough of the "reality" aspect already...
I think an ALL kung-fu tournament with certain rules imposed would be great for the art. The objective of such an event should (and would) not be on par with such NHB comps like UFC or Pride on the level or realismbrutality, but rather a beautiful demonstration of skill and showcase of different kung-fu techniques pitted against each other. I believe that concept would turn out to be quite entertaining.

Wongsifu
10-29-2001, 05:01 PM
in reply to the question about hitting someone with forearms headbutts etc etc etc , the result is always the same it takes longer to ko an opponent that to lock him up. It always is like this always will be unless you are a baddass mofo puncher. In which case you will destroy the guy, with one punch , so what the hell do you have to prove by going into the ring ???

as for the gloves protecting the hands, what bunch of pussies believe that !!!! Youve never really trained on a makiwara or a rock filled bag have you ????

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Wongsifu
10-29-2001, 05:04 PM
reminds me of the story that i heard donno if its ttrue or not about muhammed ali haveing really brittle hands !!! Imagine him training iron fist and fighting barehand :)

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Xebsball
10-29-2001, 05:13 PM
Vasco, i think he was talking about Helio when he fought Kimura.
But lets not polute this thread with discussions that dont belong here, ok?

Getting back to the topic, i think it should be bare hands. If you are afraid of hurting your hands, do some conditioning like Wong said.
From what I've heard gloves are to avoid cuts to the fighters skin and such.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

Archangel
10-29-2001, 05:33 PM
"in reply to the question about hitting someone with forearms headbutts etc etc etc , the result is always the same it takes longer to ko an opponent that to lock him up."

Bull S h i t, It takes one strike to knock an opponent out. In grappling it takes a takedown, gaining position then a submission.

"always will be unless you are a baddass mofo puncher. In which case you will destroy the guy, with one punch , so what the hell do you have to prove by going into the ring ???"

Again Bull S h i t, you had James Warring a former IBF cruiserweight champion fight Renzo Gracie and get taken down and submitted before landing a good punch. Whats did he have to prove, well it's simple he wanted to prove that
good striking was all you needed to be a good fighter. He was proven wrong.

"as for the gloves protecting the hands, what bunch of pussies believe that !!!! Youve never really trained on a makiwara or a rock filled bag have you ????"

This is a fact, since the fighters were forced to wear gloves there has been far less hand breakages in fights, which was getting out of hand in the first MMA tournaments. But hey, if you prefer no gloves then fine; it was an advantage to the strikers to have them.

Jaguar Wong
10-29-2001, 06:04 PM
I think Gilbert Yvel proved that the striker can KO his opponent faster than most can submit them (The one kick KO on Big Daddy from Pride 10 I think?). Sure there have been some quick subs inside of a minute (Frank Shamrock vs Kevin Jackson, Sak vs Shannon the Cannon, etc), but now with more all around guys that can avoid takedowns better, the quick submissions are more and more rare these days.

They're all watching for the strikes now. The cycle continues, now the grapplers respect the strikes and are no longer so eager to rush in for the takedown, because the strikers are learned in their craft as well. I'd like to think it's evolution, but if you look at it, it's more like a history lesson. The styles are again becoming more well rounded. It won't be long before another martial arts "golden age" is upon us :)

As far as Helio losing to Kimura. C'mon man, that's a special case. Kimura didn't train Judo, he was Judo. The living embodiment of his style. That's all the man lived for. Well, so do the Gracies, but that doesn't mean losing to Kimura should be their ruin. I don't know if there are many others that could have taken him.

Jaguar Wong

Merryprankster
10-29-2001, 06:39 PM
Jaguar, excellent again.

The Japanese have a saying "no one before Kimura, no one after," Meaning he's simply the best there ever was (so far)

Watchman
10-29-2001, 07:01 PM
You know, this event format everyone is talking about is already codified in Vale Tudo.

By saying you want an exclusive "kung fu only" vale tudo event, you are making the unspoken presupposition that "kung fu" can't hang with "grapplers", which only reinforces what non-kungfuists are always harping on.

The format is already there - go fight vale tudo.

Jaguar Wong
10-29-2001, 07:02 PM
Wow, I never knew that. I like that quote. :) I didn't even know much about Kimura until Ryu showed up here. After a little while, I finally started looking up info about him. I love finding info about the greats like Kimura, Mas Oyama, Ku Yu Cheong, Wong Fei Hung, etc...

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

Merryprankster
10-29-2001, 07:04 PM
Watchman,

EXACTLY!

chokeyouout2
10-29-2001, 10:05 PM
Wongsifu has diahrreah of the mouth.Go rent some more UFC's and continue your bull****ting.BTW I hope your not talking about Kano or Kimura's fight with Helio.Noone got their arm broken, Helio choked Kano out and lost on points to kimura.It was sport jiu jitsu not fighting.Whatever, your a genius.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Archangel
10-29-2001, 10:07 PM
That is what I was thinking too Watchmen

LEGEND
10-29-2001, 10:34 PM
WONGSIFU obviously has issues with BJJ...but to call Helio Gracie a fraud shows that he is and probably will never be a complete fighter.

A

Braden
10-29-2001, 10:43 PM
What do the kungfu guys in this thread mean by a tournament where you 'have to fight with your style'? I mean, seriously, give a practical definition of 'fight with your style' because I can't figure it out.

And what are wongsifu and the others arguing about? I can't seem to follow it. What does one side believe that the other doesn't (other than that so-and-so sucks; oh no they rock; no they suck! ... )

Watchman
10-29-2001, 10:47 PM
If and when you get it figured out...make sure and let me know, OK? :D

Xebsball
10-29-2001, 10:55 PM
Lost on points?? Where did you get that version, there were no points.

"During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoi-nage [one arm shoulder throw], osoto-gari [major outer reap], and harai-goshi [sweeping hip/loin]. He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame [modified upper four corner hold], kesa-gatame [scarf hold], sankaku-gatame [triangle hold]. Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osoto-gari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (arm lock) [chicken-wing arm lock]. The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.

Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his comer "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win."

http://members.tripod.com/~Stickgrappler/sub/jimchen1.html

I heard that Helio used to say he had never been defeated but he actually had.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

BAI HE
10-29-2001, 11:15 PM
"Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will."

Is that what they told Helio in the ER?

It takes a substantial amount of will to break
someone's bones as well.

Fighting sprirt?
If that was a real fight Kimura would have killed Helio. Good thing it was a "match."

Xeb - you forgot the part about Helio insisting on the match after he defeated Kimura's pal.

LEGEND
10-29-2001, 11:45 PM
bai he...true...kimura did systematically beat helio. kimura was a remarkable man...he use to have nitemares sleeping cause he would hear the sound of broken bones...

A

shinwa
10-30-2001, 12:17 AM
Byf ight with your style I mean I don't wanna see five animal fighters doing Tae Kwon Do. I don't want crane stylist throwing Jabs. I dont want Wing Chun Fighters throwing crosses. I want Kung Fu people to start actually using the flubbing Kung Fu they list as their style when they enter a tournament. The only way they(fellows in those tournaments) can improve is by doing it.

chokeyouout2
10-30-2001, 12:19 AM
He didn't break his arm.There is a video that will prove this. (I will find it)When noone taps, points are used.Helio also gave up a bunch of weight.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Braden
10-30-2001, 12:19 AM
How do you enforce that though?

If you step into the ring and start throwing crosses, then that IS your fighting style. It doesn't matter what it says on your card. If you're ill-prepared to throw crosses but do it anyway, then it's no one's fault but your own.

Wongsifu
10-30-2001, 12:22 AM
1rstly i would like to say that i am not the one with diarhhea of the mouth , considering im not the one obsessed with fake fighting championships and go to a mcdojo bjj group .lets look at the facts here

1) kimura did break helios arm

2) the infamous son of the ufc status proved himself about as much as bruce lee did , he showed ignorant people something and they sucked his ballz for it. Gracie whatever his name is invited a load of wanabees to fight him and he ended up grappling with a karateka for 18 minutes, if that isnt a joke what is ? the karateka had 7 years under his belt gracie had been training since he was 5-6. WOOOOOOooooooooow

3) The realism of ufc and bjj can only be defined by people like shamrock saying " I left the ufc to go to wwf" because the WWF IS MORE REALISTIC....

please let me just laugh in your face, hmm wwf is more realistic than the ufc

on a side note i have no problem with helio gracie , the man must have been a great man , i even have the video of him fighting kimura , i d/l of a site and the footage is really really bad, but it looked like a judo match. More than anything else.

What i do have a problem with is peopl ebelieve bjj is the end all and be all of martial arts considering i dont thing i know of 1 bjjer who doesnt crosstrain because his art is incomplete.
Especially when the whole gracie scene is a setup, man those fights with sakuraba, i went and bought them , boy what a load of bull~crap.


So can we just drop this gracie business because its my knowledge of seeing 1000 martial arts versus people who believe 1 marttial art is the best which im not bothered with.

However this striking versus grappling business i still stand by the fact that it takes a great striker to ko an amateur wrestlerin under 2 minutes whereas an amateur wrestler can slap on an armbar in that time. IF the stiker doesnt expect it ...
For this reason in nhb matches the grapplers will always have the advantage, expecially when you disable some of the strikers most potent weapons.

i dont care what you say its a fact, vale tudo judo and olympic wrestling matches dont go on for 9 rounds of 3 minutes each , boxing matches do

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

chokeyouout2
10-30-2001, 01:01 AM
Fake fighting,Mc Dojo's,single art supremecy.

My teacher is a open class brown belt pan american champ,texas extreme challenge champ and state qualifier after one year of collegiate wrestling.He was teamates with hands down some of the finest fighters in NHB right now.What have you done?Let me guess, your a forms champion from the 70's.Maybe you can break boards and poke eyes.Maybe you can wave a sword around.Maybe you can spew fireballz out your arse.Maybe you can do absolutely nothing but badmouth real fighters.Maybe the mouth thing was excessive, my condolances.I don't have a clue what you have done in the way of testing yourself and your art.If you wan't to call NHB fake fighting, so be it.It's a free country.I have fought in a cage, in a ring, on the mat and in the street.These are just my opinions.maybe you practice something better.

p.s.I wonder if Ken made that comment after Royce tapped him.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Wongsifu
10-30-2001, 01:32 AM
wow i didnt think i would still be at this bjj vs kung fu thing after so many years , but just to settle it i dont have a problem with you or with bjj , im not saying kung fu is superior or that bjj sucks. In my eyes nhb is not real like on the street knife at your balls real , but its not karate point sparring fake either.
Its just things that vex me like kung fu doesnt work or how bjj is soo great, and this whole gracie thing ,in my eyes helio proved himself even if he lost to kimura, his sons have made a marketing empire and the first ufc's were honestly so fake. However many instructors have proved themselves like by the sounds of it your instructor , However ive grown up in these circumstances and seen so much stuff from bottom of the barrel instructors, to people who really are some of the best out there, and im sick of hearing that nhb is a proving ground, maybe to your instructor but to me its different.
Ive heard so much sh1t out there thats why im sick of it.
Things that apply for kung fu guys as much as nhb guys , thing like when a friend of mine asked this kung fu grandmaster what would you do against the common shoot, his answer was i would punch him in the head, and he had already been took down in the daftest way from another kung fu guy and he still had the blindness to say , i would punch him straight. find out about the william cheung emin boztepe fight and youll se this william cheung bloke has the guiness world of records , record for 8.3 punches in one second. He said to me " i would punch him in the head if he tried to shoot at me"
But equally im sick of hearing how super duper nhb is when ppl havent ever seen a real traditionalist in action.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

chokeyouout2
10-30-2001, 01:54 AM
I'm wondering why you think those fights were fake?I'm referring to ufc 1-5.I'll admit, those fights weren't a cesspool of talent but they were fights none the least.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Richie
10-30-2001, 02:03 AM
I find this very funny. This tournament isn't kung fu only, because kf can't compete with other MAs. It is to raise to kf level.

What do I mean when I say "They must use their style."? I mean if you say you do Wing Chun, and you start throwing hooks and spinning back kicks to some guys head, that means your kf is crap.

What do I mean when I say kf expert? A person who is reconized as reaching a high level in their style. For example, Frank Yee can send a student and he would be ok.

This not like Vale todo, which is a good tournament. It is kf only, not grappling if your style doesn't have it. This is only a beginning for kf

This tournament is to make kf stronger. And you guys are distroying it before it starts. I bet a lot of you guys won't put your money where your mouth is.

I saw some people talking bad about Bjj. I think is funny BJJ has proved its effectiveness. Brazil is like HK, probably worse. They fight all of the time down there. We TALK all of the time up here. Is BJJ perfect? No, but it did change the way we think about fighting. After the first couple of UFCs, teachers started having and teaching SECRET ground techniques (BULL). Most of it is crap. I'm no BJJ fan, but I have to respect it's effectiveness.

Wongsifu
10-30-2001, 02:07 AM
man its 3.00 am here i must be the saddest guy on earth, the reason i think that the first ufc for example is fake is that the contenders are a pick and mix of something out of bloodsport, and gracie knows full well who he can and cant beat, that fetal fighting guy , he was a joke , or the kickboxers in it they havent got a clue what a wrestler really is. Even worse is the karateka he has been so over glorified made to look like he is some hot shot from japan when he is just some blackbelt !!! And none of these fighters could really win because they dont have the ability or the training to k.o someone like gracie.

to me its just like the dim mak craze quite a few years back everone would rush into schools to learn killer kung fu , how to kill with one finger , its just oveer hyped marketing.

as a martial art i tihnk bjj is cool, i would have no problem learning it i would actually like to , and i respect it for keeping high standards whereas kung fu is really sold out.

In essence real kung fu is all but dead , in china it will be dead long before it is in america and its quite sad actually. My teacher is chinese and he thinks that by promoting modern kung fu that the government has created he is supporting his heritage , he doesnt know he is actually killing it.

The reason i like kung fu over bjj is because of its training methods and depth, i could take a bjjer and train him using traditional kung fu methods and make him into one of the best the world has seen. Whereas using normal methods grappling can only take you so far.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Xebsball
10-30-2001, 02:21 AM
I agree with Richie's last post.

This tournament is not to test Kf vs others, its to raise the level of Kf. Later there can be all styles in this, but first we should do 2 or 3 events that would be Kf only.
This could be a sort of wake up call that can make Kf schools all over the place start sparring in this way (tradicional with all the stances, moves, etc).
Once we have a solid base of our own martial art (kung fu) we will start working on it against other MA.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

shinwa
10-30-2001, 04:00 AM
Yeah I agree with Richie. I'm just sick of seeing guys claiming to represent Kung Fu fighting like any generic kickboxer out there. It'd be so awesome if there were a tournament ocused on improving Kung Fu. Like fighters would get penalized if they start Thai boxing or something. I like the idea for learning, nt to prove this style is better than that style etc etc.

I don;t like the idea of only masters and stuff fighting though. I think all levels of stylist could benefit from something like that. Learning to use the techniques instead of simply learning how to do the techniques.

Theogenes
10-30-2001, 05:44 AM
To say that Royce Gracie didn't beat any skilled opponents is complete bull****. In the first UFC, Gracie defeated Ken Shamrock with a rear naked choke. Shamrock was the number one ranked shootfighter in the world, and can benchpress 500 pounds. He then defeated Gerard Gaurdue (spelling?), a high lever European kickboxer. Lets not forget that he defeated Dan Severn.
Wongsifu, you don't honestly think you could defeat Gracie in a street fight do you? I really hope you're not that delusional.

Wongsifu
10-30-2001, 02:08 PM
wether i could defeat gracie in a street fight right now is not the question, as we have said a thousan times you never know, you dont know me etc etc , and if you look at any pro fighting he has already seen the previous fighter he has analysed him etc etc. The street is a weird place.

However like i said before what you consider a top european kickboxer , i may consider as an amateur...
take care

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

LEGEND
10-30-2001, 04:09 PM
That is correct...we don't know WONGSIFU...we only know what our EYEs tell us...and unfortunately we go back to step 1...TRADITIONAL CMA has not proven itself in any known standup fighting or NHB/MMA/VALE TUDO tournaments ever! And I think that's SAD. There's just too many excuses why it doesn't. There are CMA guys here that say the fighters aren't that good...but then ask why they don't step up or one of their students step up...or one of their master step up...they say they are not that good or don't have anything to prove YET say arts like MUY THAI and BJJ are not a high level martial art. Not Internal enuf etc...lol.
The problem is that with the UFC/MMA events is a forum to prove your style or way of fighting...whether u win or lose u can show off a particular tech...we know eye gouging works...has been used INTENTIONALLY but against the rules...LOL...we know high kicks work...people have been KO in these event...we know that elbow strike works...we know throws and takedown works...headbutt works. In terms of style...we know that the most effective are striking arts: kickboxing, boxing, muy thai...
in terms of grappling: folkstyle wrestling, bjj, sambo etc...
I mean if u're gonna try to SELL a product or make a claim would u not want to prove it??? I don't buy anything unless it has been seen and felt...

A

Merryprankster
10-30-2001, 04:56 PM
Wong,

A ring is not the street. Given.

Here is where those of us who believe sportive MMA is a good training concept have the problem:

"Kung Fu is NOT just a bunch of forms and stances. It has real fighting value!"

"Ok, here are the rules. Show us."

"It's not just a collection of vital point strikes and deadly techniques!"

"Ok, here are the rules. Show us."

"The other guys that claimed to do Kung Fu weren't really any good at Kung Fu!"

"Ok. Here are the rules. Show us."

"The rules favor grapplers!"

"Ok.
-We've changed to a round system and instituted a
stand-up rule.
-The floor is padded to prevent injury upon slam
or throw.
-There seem to be an awful lot of strikers
knocking people out these days.
-If boxers and kickboxers can do it, why can't
you? Show us."

See, we're not asking for a miracle. We're asking that the claims are backed up. Give us proof, and we'll believe it. Show us that people trained in Kung Fu can kick ass in this context and we will all seek this out and learn what we can. We are interested in the improvement of fighting skills, and if Kung Fu shows us that we'll go that way too.

For the record, people seem confused about "the ring and the street." None of the MMA types think the ring is the street. We think that success in the ring is a pretty good indicator of how well you can do in real life. Who here wants to screw with Tyson, Belfort or Sak in a real situation?

Those of us who believe sportive styles are the most efficient groundwork for self defense base that on the following ideas:

1. Live, active opponents create an environment of continuous improvement-you learn timing, you learn what it FEELS like to hit and be hit. You learn what works best for you under a variety of circumstances... all against an actively resisting opponent. I recognize that Kung Fu uses active full speed sparring in many places, but sports are PRIMARILY about this, and the emphasis is greater: I never escaped wrestling practice without live wrestling. I never leave BJJ without full-speed sparring, barring injury. I have, however, witnessed several "traditional" classes where they do not spar every class.

2. We believe that in a fight, gross motor movements are going to be the most effective. I am unlikely to have the presence of mind or body to perform something requiring me to hit a certain exact spot, or extremely subtle manipulation. I WILL however, be able to shoot, sprawl, throw, kick or punch to the body, legs, and head.

3. We believe that adapting sportive movements to combat is easily done. I don't have to choke or submit you once I've taken you down. I can pound on your face. I can also gouge your eyes out, rip at your face/throat or throw knees to your head and groin, since I have controlled your body movement and you will have a hard time moving if I don't want you to. Same goes for stand up work: A throw becomes a slam on the head, a kick to the leg becomes a kick to the knee.

4. We believe that all arts and sports have holes, and train to shore them up. Nothing is the perfect art, nothing offers it all.

5. We believe in "show us." We don't CARE where it came from, show us the value and we'll use it!

Did I miss anything anyone?

Merryprankster
10-30-2001, 05:02 PM
Oh yeah,

One last thing: There's a lot of "well, that would work against an untrained opponent, and since I am training to fight the average thug, that's enough for me."

The MMA community believes that is wrong. We want to know what works on people that are TRAINED. Show me what works on everybody, not just the uneducated.

Archangel
10-30-2001, 05:24 PM
Here are a few notable strikers in the early days of MMA.

Orlando Weit - Muay Thai
1992 World Kickboxing Champion
1988 European Champ
1985 Dutch Champ


Gerard Gordeau - Savate, Kyokoshin Kai
90-92 World Boxe Francais HW Champ
8 Yeays Dutch National Karate Champ
Founding memeber of the original K1


James Warring - Boxing
IBF Cruiserweight Champ


Melton Bowen - Boxing
WBC Intercontinental Champ
2 X New York State Golden Gloves Champ


Pat Smith - Karate, Kickboxing, TKD
2 X World Sabaki Champion
KICK Super Heavyweight Champ


Jerome Turcan - Savate
#6 Ranked WKA Cruiserweight in the world


Moti Horenstein - Karate, Kickboxing
86-88 Israeli Kickboxing Champion
1996 OYAMA Sidokan Champion


Mo Smith
WKA Heavyweight kickboxing Champ
WKA MT Champ

No with the exception of Mo Smith who learned how to grapple, every one of these strikers had their butts handed to them in MMA. So I guess there goes your theory of no good strikers in MMA.

LEGEND
10-30-2001, 05:29 PM
Nah dood...wong sifu says there're amauteurs...lol!

A

JWTAYLOR
10-30-2001, 05:36 PM
Vasco de Gama, when did your instructor enter the Texas Extreme Challenge? You know they even have the luge in it now. The luge, in Texas. It's just gotten weird.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

kungfugrip
10-30-2001, 08:03 PM
As a fan of MMA, I would love to see representatives of Kung fu fight. Kung fu was my original interest in the martial arts. Several promoters could easily set this up, even just for a single match would be cool. This could be a trial run. Alot of promoters will book a request match as long as both fighters demonstrate that they have trained enough to protect themselves. The fighter could work it out with the ref and promoter if they want to limit the rules in some way (i.e. sport jujitsu style 30-sec. ground rules). I don't know how to make sure people stick to their style, but if the fighters make the fight to demonstrate their style and they fight vale tudo style, i guess their style's not so hot. I think people revert to vale tudo style because it gives good protection, lets you move easily in any direction and attack easily with all your weapons. I'd love to see something different. As a fan, I always look for a unique approach... that's why sak has had such a huge following...

I'm glad to see not all kung fu guys hate bjj. I think it is similar to the internal styles of kung fu, because you use sensitivity and technique against your opponent's power. The reason Gracie impressed me was that he was so much smaller than his opponents and still won. (from a marketing aspect, that's probably why Rickson didn't fight in the early UFC's - - I can look at Royce and imagine that if I get good, I could have a chance against a much bigger, stronger opponent, but I'll never be as big and strong as Rickson, Shamrock, or Coleman)

I wish I had seen this style when I was wrestling, because using strength against your opponent will only take you so far. After four years of wrestling, I was strong enough to beat most of my opponents, but if I wrestled a guy a couple of weight classes up, I had no chance.

I'd like to see someone demonstrate stand-up skills that make me have that same revelation I had watching Royce, that I don't have to be Wanderlai Silva to take someone out standing, that skill and sensitivity can defeat strength, speed and power.

Finding a venue to fight is no problem. I hope this happens.

chokeyouout2
10-30-2001, 08:05 PM
He fought in that tournament two years ago.He was cornered by Tito Ortiz and Sal Garcia.John Lober was the ref.He fought some wrestler from Washington I believe.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

GunnedDownAtrocity
10-30-2001, 09:18 PM
"Other styles have tourneys forcing them to use what they learn. Jujitsu guys have it, Judo guys have it, Kickboxers have it, Boxers have it. We don't. We need it."

agreed 100%

i don't really understand what all they hype is about the ufc thing. so the main stream public doesn't agree with what i do ... there's something new :rolleyes:

so you think kung fu is crap because there has yet to be any entries into your competitions . .. ask me if i give a flying fu ck. i know what i do works on the street because it has been tested there. our style has also been pitted against other schools when my sifu still taught publically. i am more than confident that i am developing into a better fighter with better street chances learning kf. i dont need you to validate this. if you think you can walk through us because we aren't in any of your full contact sparring matches it's all the better for the guy you underestimate and consiquently hands you your a$$.

i think you guys here are taking opinions a little too seriously. not to say that i haven't been guilty of this myself, but after i really thought about it i was disapointed in myself for being emotionally effected by another's opinon on what i do. i know what i do has meritt. i don't need to hear it from some ufc junkie who hasn't seen what i have. most of them are little nerds pointing the finger who would never enter the ring themselves. the others are sportsman who have yet to come across good kf. maybe they will one day .. maybe they wont .. it doesn't effect my training one way or another.

i like technical debates about kf vs. grappeling and other styles, but there is no reason to get bent out of shape by the opinion of someone who doesn't really matter to you anyway.

fu ck em.

where's my beer?

Archangel
10-30-2001, 11:45 PM
"However this striking versus grappling business i still stand by the fact that it takes a great striker to ko an amateur wrestlerin under 2 minutes whereas an amateur wrestler can slap on an armbar in that time."

So your saying that these contests are unfair because grapplers are able to execute there techniques quicker and more efficently than a pure striker.

This statement somes up the entire debate Wong, Thank you. You just discovered the reason why so many of us train in grappling.

Tigerstyle
10-31-2001, 01:49 AM
I would like to bet that if Jason DeLucia(sp?) had won, then alot of people saying, "He wasn't using real Kung Fu" would be sying, "Jason DeLucia is a Kung Fu man, and he defeated Royce Gracie." ;)

Why isn't a jab or cross Kung Fu? Are the mechanics of it so different? I have seen many variations of how kung fu guys throw punches, and lots of them throw punches like that. Some of them were traditional guys, some not, so should I just call them all "kickboxers"?

A friend of mine once had someone ask him what kung fu looks like, so he punched the guy in the face (playfully) without hesitation. That's the definition I like to go by :) .

OK everyone, FLAME ON!

GunnedDownAtrocity
10-31-2001, 03:10 AM
"Why isn't a jab or cross Kung Fu? Are the mechanics of it so different? "

word.

where's my beer?

kungfugrip
10-31-2001, 05:30 AM
I thought the problem was that people are saying the mixed martial artists suck as fighters and that they (the not-so-humble talkers) are invincible and can take everyone out with one punch, but they refuse to fight. I don't think anyone is saying someone doing their own thing should have to prove themselves (of course not, not everyone is a pro fighter), but I understand the frustration when one person is saying "you guys suck and can't fight, and I'm great", but they won't fight and prove it.

jimmy23
10-31-2001, 06:03 AM
merry prankster makes an excellent point!

There are Vale Tudo matches in mexico, I can probably put in touch with someone if you want to fight there. The rules are just what has been listed here. How you propose to penalize fighters if they dont "stick to their style" is beyond me.

I cant fathom, why anyone would want this proposed tournament. If you want to to test yourself , get into MMA. If you dont fine, but to have tournament where a fighter has to fight a certain way is an exercise in ridiculousness. Either have a lot rules (like judo competition or a kickboxing match ), have the rules you need to get sanctioned (UFC), or fight with almost no rules (Vale Tdo in mexico or Brazil)


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Wongsifu
10-31-2001, 01:53 PM
you know guys what sucks about this whole thing is that everything you speculate on is because you see one side of the story, in america mma is the end all and be all, in china mma is unheard of. They say the same crap about american fighters , that they are all a joke none of them has ever proved themselves, i read all the time about the american san shou guys going to china and getting their ass handed to them, ive heard too many stories from one guy or another about his teacher making boxers look funny by throwing them around the ring. Ive actually seen what it means to be a badass in china and in america, and america doesnt compare. I have never heard of any american ufc nhb champion going to china to fight , im sure that many guys who crosstrain in kickboxing and judo, could enter the san shou competitions with a little modification why dont we see that ?

you guys want kung fu to prove itself to you , so you go make the challenges where real kung fu is. Kung fu has worked for 1000 years it has gone beyond the stage of fighting in nhb tournaents , when china used to hold nhb tournaments, gracie was in helios nutsack.

The bottom line is you arent gonna get people who are going to win the nhb competitions in america, unless they are hardcore kung fu guys, and those who are dont really give a hoot about the competitions.

There isnt even a standard of competitions between kung fu for chrst sake, i mean kickboxing to golf has standardised competitions but kung fu doesnt.

But i have an idea because this thread is getting boring and we have been over this 100000000000 times i propse we either stop the discussion on put down the reasons why kung fu would do better than mma in the ring and you do otherwise..

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

LEGEND
10-31-2001, 04:29 PM
DOOD...there is regularly SAN SHOU tournaments that have PURE BOXERs enter and kick ass! The most famous one I know of is the BATTLE OF BALTIMORE...where CUNG LE and JASON YEE squad competes regularly. The fact is using CHINA as a standard of great fighter is BULLSHIET...I haven't seen a CHINESE TOURNEY on tape that has shown any indication of fighting in alongggggggggggg time. Maybe that's cause of the government...but to say AMERICAN FIGHTER don't compare LOL...pleaseeeeeeeeee...I'm asian and I'm not STUPID enuf to believe that BS!

A

Knifefighter
10-31-2001, 09:23 PM
Wongsifu:
So, what you are saying is that kung fu fighters in North America and Europe suck? OK, I'll buy that ;)

jimmy23
10-31-2001, 09:25 PM
knifefighter is correct


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Knifefighter
10-31-2001, 10:31 PM
Vasco:
Helio's brother Carlos threw in the towel. I'm pretty sure the elbow was broken.
Of course, BJJ has evolved light years since that match.

Wongsifu & GunnedDownAtrocity:
So, how would one go about seeing a good kung fu traditionalist in action?

Xebsball:
You live in Brazil, the home of Vale Tudo. Haven't you ever seen a pure kung fu guy fight in a vale tudo match?

Merryprankster:
Killer posts.

Braden
10-31-2001, 11:05 PM
In Cali, Mike Patteron (www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com)) and Tim Cartmell (www.shenwu.com (http://www.shenwu.com)) should be good.

Wongsifu
11-01-2001, 12:05 AM
knife fighter i totally agree with you, most of the kung fu guys in america and europe suck bad , the only ones who are ok, are guys who are chinese. I have met one person in all my life who is not oriental and has real kung fu. ITs a sad fact, but we dont have the mentality to embrace what they can wholeharteadly, we are either too soft or too hard, we dont have patience.

How many guys do you think would really say ok sifu , i will just practise horsse stance for 1 years before i learn punches for 1 more year and kicks for 1 more after that. after the 3 years are up of horse stance and basic punches and kicks i will then start training kung fu.
We are so used to the , practise wing chun the quickest system of self defence, no low horse stances. Kung fu is like a huge tree if it doesnt have solid roots in the beggining it falls over haf way through growing.

Im not just talking out of my anus here, i have been through all the stuff you guys hear about kung fu and believed it from heresay, i learnt after 2 years the move that was unblockble. I learnt the best style in the world, i learnt how to defeat opponents 10 times my size having never actually sparred full contact. Even though i could not really block them because its hard to block a 220 pound guys arm that is coming at you.
I learn all about how bashing inanimate objects for hours every day can make your hands hard as iron , even though the teacher who did it could not break one slab if it wasnt fixed.
Unfortunately
Then i realised that i was being fed lots of bull, so i started again at the beggining, and after 8 years or so , i am practising basics again that really work, that is why i stand by the real ability and marvel of kung fu. The sad fact is 90% of people in kung fu are better off doing a martial art that teaches them how to fight fast and effectively.Like bjj and muay thai.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Knifefighter
11-01-2001, 12:36 AM
Braden:
I would hardly call Tim Cartmell a traditionalist, seeing as he is heavily influenced by BJJ.

Wongsifu:
You were tricked for eight years? Now you are starting again, learning basics that you are convinced will work this time? How do you know what you are learning now is any better than what you learned the first eight years.0

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 11-01-01 at 03:46 PM.]

Wongsifu
11-01-2001, 01:04 AM
ok maybe i didnt write it out well enough i was tricked for about 4 years , ok not exactly tricked i should say brainwashed, it was a case of look at karate's slow hands, look at our fast hands , look at karate's old boring blocks, look at our modern kung fu blocks , you know.
The other 4 years after that were used doing some aikido some ju jitsu some karate, some hung gar , some gym work, by some i mean anything from 1 day to 2 years. Then i found my chinese teacher and he showed me that stuff got ever deeper, in my search, then one day it all kind of clicked.
So i thought sod it take things real slowly and it doesnt matter you can defend yourself anyhow, so take your time starting from step one again.
Now the difference is i dont need to believe that if i do this this will happen its a case of i am doing tihs and this is happening.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Braden
11-01-2001, 01:15 AM
KF - Why not? Traditionalists have always sought out other talented martial artists to learn from, and to fill in percieved gaps in their skills. The idea that tradition comprises blindly copying what old people did and wearing funny outfits is a modern invention fueled by capitalism.

Tim trains in BJJ because he recognizes a need to be proficient on the ground and did not believe that need was fulfilled by the other arts he was exposed to. It doesn't make his kungfu any less traditional. And it doesn't mean his kungfu training methods are any different from a comparable individual who did not train in BJJ.

You're looking for good quality kungfu. Tim has it. His circle throw is not from BJJ, it's from bagua. His power generation is not from BJJ, it's from xingyi. If you define "traditional kungfu" as only kungfu practiced by closed-minded people wearing funny outfits and blindly copying what old people did, you shouldn't be surprised if you never find any quality.

Tigerstyle
11-01-2001, 01:19 AM
"the only ones who are ok, are guys who are chinese"

:rolleyes:

Jaguar Wong
11-01-2001, 01:34 AM
Yeah, what Braden said! :)

I consider myself a traditionalist, but I've always been taught to recongnize the value in other training methods. Whether I chose to seek them out or not was up to me, but recognizing skill brings you one step closer to understanding their style.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

Merryprankster
11-01-2001, 02:44 AM
Wongsifu,

The insinuation in all of your posts is that the rabbit hole is very deep with Kung Fu and not so deep with BJJ/wrestling/Judo/boxing/Muay Thai etc.

I assure you that the rabbit hole is JUST as deep with these arts as they are with Kung Fu. The techniques are just as complicated and specific, and the training to reach a high level requires the same dedication. I will assure you that a 60 year old wrestler, boxer, or Judoka can be as equally skilled and formidable as a 60 year old Kung Fu master.

Xebsball
11-01-2001, 04:04 AM
Knife, no i havent seen any.
As a matter of fact i havent seen a live vale tudo fight exept for TV.
There was a Nhb event some months ago but i was out of town :(
In this one a kickboxer had issued a challenge on the newspaper to any one from any martial art to fight with no rules weighting 70kg. A Muay Thai guy from another city acepted the challenge.
So there would be some Vale Tudo fights and some k-1 fights, but like i said i didnt go. I think a training brother watched it but i havent asked him since when i came back it had happened over a month ago. There were no kung fu guys on the tournament and BTW there is only one kf school here and its the one i go to.
I'm guessing there might be underground stuff but i'd have to check on that.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

Archangel
11-01-2001, 04:45 AM
Oh I see you're using the old San Shou fighters in China being better excuse. Hate to break it to you but anyone of those guys would be finished in under 2 minutes without proper groundfighting training. I like San Shou and Kuoshu, in fact I really think that they should be the training grounds and competition for CMA's. But I'll be blunt here, MMA is a BETTER proving ground of overall fighting ability then San Shou or Kuoshu.

You take a San Shou fighter and place him in MMA and all of his weapons are still there, he is not limited at all. Conversely you place a MMA fighter into a San Shou tournament you take away his standup submissions and his groundfighting. So again your argument does not hold water, sorry try again.

Watchman
11-01-2001, 05:38 AM
Merryprankster is correct.

brassmonkey
11-01-2001, 07:36 AM
Why not help help promote Sanshou, Kuoshu, Sanda or even NHB? Personally I'd like to see a new tournament with NHB rules with kicking and punching downed opponent on flat earth to give throws a more accurate importance in these tournament fights.

Watchman
11-01-2001, 07:56 AM
You mean PRIDE?? Or maybe Vale Tudo?? ;)

brassmonkey
11-01-2001, 09:13 AM
"You mean PRIDE?? Or maybe Vale Tudo?? "
No these tournaments are held in a ring with a canvas floor. I should actually red the whole thread I see this convo already took place earlier, apologies to the forum for the extra bandwith.

Archangel
11-01-2001, 08:13 PM
Actually id like to see that, a MMA fight on solid ground. Im sure that wrestlers and Judokas would be clamouring for that as well. A high amplitude throw onto cement or dirt though would be messy, I don't think that couls get sanctioned anywhere.

Wongsifu
11-01-2001, 09:18 PM
1stly to the person who said about the old skool san shou guys, man are you joking here, you actually bring these guys up in a thread like this , san shou guys san shou is 30 years old for fu(ks sake its newer than bjj.

About arts being as deep as kung fu this is what proves why you guys shouldnt argue when you dont know **** about the styles you are arguing about.

Excuse me but does bjj have any kung in it ? Does bjj teach you about flow of energy ? man you guys are so dry the stuff kung fu has in it bjj cant even spell or even comprehend most bjj guys can only say OOOOOOHHH chi doesnt exist OOOOOOHHHH, come and roll around with me brucey.

Maybe 100 years ago muay thai when it used to be called krabi krabong or whatever had like throws and fighting with big machetes ok thats a complete system, or judo when it was jujitsu, was more complete. judo is a sport and always will be 90% of judoka who dont train for mma cant block a punch.
Dont tell me about depth when you dont know shiat about depth, i know about depth and it aint found in rolling around on the floor.

Under the umbrella of kung fu is found more than 100 styles. One of those styles has more depth than all modern styles put together.

Im not arguing about this **** anymore , ive seen mma and kung fu , you guys cant spell kung fu.

Dont even bother replying

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

walkthecircle
11-01-2001, 09:54 PM
You speak the Truth Wongsifu.

Nothing really left to say.

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-01-2001, 10:17 PM
"Wongsifu & GunnedDownAtrocity:
So, how would one go about seeing a good kung fu traditionalist in action?"

i don't care how one would go about finding a good traditionalist. i already found one.

if you are that interested in seeing real kung fu you will have to look and you will have to get lucky. most of all mas schools, not just kf, are martial garbage.

however, i don't really think you are intrested in doing anything more than venting your opinions on a subject you know only one side of. in your shoes, with your expereiences, i might do the same.

on a side note being tradtional does not mean being stupid. if a real kf man were to see a muithia guy kick, or was impressed by a man of any art, do you really think he would say "well . . that looks great .. but it aint what i already learned so i better try to forget it all togeather." how the hell do you think kf evolved at all? how many styles were created by mixing 2 or more stlyes togeahter? kf evolved because a true kf man would be able to incorperate new concepts into his kf while keeping to the principles of his system. kf is a personal art . .. you are searching to really find yourself in the system. once you do, you are the system and whatever you do is your kf. if you neglect extra techniques or concep along the way that really fit well into your personal system your road will be much longer. mixing systems is nothing new. of course mma/ufc/etc is new .. and because it's new it must be the best.

those little smiley faces with the rolling eyes really get on my fu cking nerves so imagine one on your own here.

where's my beer?

Tigerstyle
11-01-2001, 10:27 PM
:rolleyes:

You know you love 'em, GDA

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-01-2001, 10:30 PM
****it man! you were supposed to IMAGINE your own .. not post one.

where's my beer?

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-01-2001, 10:31 PM
i don't know why i hate those little boogers so much ... the way their little eyes go round and round makes me want to kill someone . . and not in a good way either.

where's my beer?

Tigerstyle
11-01-2001, 10:33 PM
BTW: I agree with your incorporating stuff post. Man, sometimes I still mix what little (3 months) Kenpo I have learned into my techniques. Wait... does that mean I do Shaolin Kenpo :eek: ? Are the "real" kung fu guys gonna bag on me now?

Uh, nevermind... I don't mix nuthin' with my pure kung fu, yeah... Um, my style is "complete" anyway, so there's just no need for me to search outside for anything. (whew, that should throw 'em off)

Archangel
11-02-2001, 02:29 AM
Quote from Wong

"I read all the time about the american san shou guys going to china and getting their ass handed to them, ive heard too many stories from one guy or another about his teacher making boxers look funny by throwing them around the ring. Ive actually seen what it means to be a badass in china and in america, and america doesnt compare. I have never heard of any american ufc nhb champion going to china to fight , im sure that many guys who crosstrain in kickboxing and judo, could enter the san shou competitions with a little modification why dont we see that ?"


OH so it was you who originally brought up the Chinese San Shou guys. Don't you hate being wrong all the time WONG.

chokeyouout2
11-02-2001, 03:24 AM
I'm wondering if energy flow and being "deep" would help my jiu jits.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Grahf1
11-03-2001, 05:20 AM
Wongsifu -

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>vasco first of all i dont have anything against gracie secondly , i would much prefer to be practising kung fu in my jammies rather than learning from a guy whos grandad had his arm broken when he challenged a real fighter[/quote]

If you are talking about the Helio vs. Kimura fight, you are showing your ignorance.

First of all, Kimura didn't even fight Helio in an NHB match! It was a sport jiujistu/judo style match. And do you know how much Helio weighs? Around 150 lbs, while Kimura is a freakin heavyweight. The weight difference between the two was ridiculous, which is why Kimura himself said that if Helio didn't tap out or verbally quit, then he would win.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and ever since then i made money off fooling people into thinking that my art wins by inviting some nobodies and beating them, woo hooo i invited a black belt from japan and video taped it ,[/quote]

Ken Shamrock, Pat Smith, and Dan Severn are nobodies? Don't be ridiculous.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>man thats so low , a black belt for fu(ks sake and gracie whoever it was has been practising for 25 years , thats like mike tyson picking on a 10 year old. And he was rolling around for 10 minuutes with the guy , the guy is a karateka for ****s sake.[/quote]

Dan Severn, Pat Smith, Gerard Gordeau, Remco Pardoel, Ron Van Chief. These guys were REALLY experienced. Dan Severn had probably been wrestling as long, if not longer than Royce was doing BJJ. Ron had been a martial artist for over 40 years at the time he fought Royce. And he was in great physical shape at 50. He was probably even stronger than Royce.

Royce Gracie taking on guys like Dan Severn is like Mike Tyson picking on a ten year old? right....

And Royce did not take anywhere near 10 minutes to defeat a karate guy. That was a pretty lame attempt at bashing Royce, the guy who made Ken Shamrock tap in under a minute.

Merryprankster
11-03-2001, 05:25 PM
Wong,

I believe my posts have been largely articulate, and almost 100% respectful of other styles and other ways of practicing. I've never ONCE claimed that Kung Fu isn't deep. I've never ONCE claimed that well trained Kung Fu men can't fight. I've never ONCE claimed that "chi" doesn't exist.

You'll never find me trolling like that because it's the man and his training that make the fight, not the "style," completeness is important to my mind, but fighters fight, not styles, and quite frankly, I'm sure there are traditionally trained Kung Fu men out there that can hand my ass to me.

What I have done:

I've articulated the MMA stance on training.

I've articulated the MMA "show me," stance on techniques and styles.

I've articulated my belief that other styles can be just as deep as Kung Fu styles. I NEVER claimed that Kung Fu isn't as deep as you say it is, just that it's got nothing on any other styles in the way of "deepness."

What I got in return was this:

About arts being as deep as kung fu this is what proves why you guys shouldnt argue when you dont know **** about the styles you are arguing about.

Excuse me but does bjj have any kung in it ? Does bjj teach you about flow of energy ? man you guys are so dry the stuff kung fu has in it bjj cant even spell or even comprehend most bjj guys can only say OOOOOOHHH chi doesnt exist OOOOOOHHHH, come and roll around with me brucey.

Maybe 100 years ago muay thai when it used to be called krabi krabong or whatever had like throws and fighting with big machetes ok thats a complete system, or judo when it was jujitsu, was more complete. judo is a sport and always will be 90% of judoka who dont train for mma cant block a punch.
Dont tell me about depth when you dont know shiat about depth, i know about depth and it aint found in rolling around on the floor.

Under the umbrella of kung fu is found more than 100 styles. One of those styles has more depth than all modern styles put together.


If you are going to take that stance let me reiterate a few things:

-Wrestling is not a modern style. Grappling in general, under various different rules, is one of the oldest competitive sports/combat arts in the world. So to classify BJJ/Judo/Wrestling as "Modern styles," is not only ludicrous, it's unsupportable. I admit that their current competitive rules are modern, but the ideas behind the techniques themselves are thousands of years old.

-BJJ/Wrestling and Judo ALL teach you about energy flow. Except we call it "mat sense," "leverage," "positioning," or simply "flow." I have personal examples. I did it in wrestling. More importantly, we have a 48 year old man in our class that uses "flow" to nullify fully 95% of everything I do, even though I outweigh him by 40 lbs, am a good deal stronger, and half his age. Don't tell me it's not as deep. I've been there.

-Lastly, as I mentioned. I know depth. It's not found in a style. It's found in hard work and dedication. It's found in 15-20 training hours a week on your normal schedule, and 30+ when training for something important. It's found in being at the school when you aren't sure you want to, when you're tired, when you're cranky, when you don't feel well. It's found in being INJURED, going ANYWAY, and practicing the only **** drill you can do without hurting yourself for 2 hours straight because you know it will make you better. It's found in consistently seeking out the best training partners you have to absorb everything you possibly can, so that even if you can't DO it, you know it exists and how to counter it. It's found in gasping on the floor because you and your partner can barely breathe from 50 minutes of all out work while your instructor threatens to send you home if you stop moving for even 5 seconds.

If you already practice your Kung Fu like that, then you know deep too. No style has a monopoly on it.

Watchman
11-03-2001, 10:36 PM
I know depth. It's not found in a style. It's found in hard work and dedication. It's found in 15-20 training hours a week on your normal schedule, and 30+ when training for something important. It's found in being at the school when you aren't sure you want to, when you're tired, when you're cranky, when you don't feel well. It's found in being INJURED, going ANYWAY, and practicing the only **** drill you can do without hurting yourself for 2 hours straight because you know it will make you better. It's found in consistently seeking out the best training partners you have to absorb everything you possibly can, so that even if you can't DO it, you know it exists and how to counter it. It's found in gasping on the floor because you and your partner can barely breathe from 50 minutes of all out work while your instructor threatens to send you home if you stop moving for even 5 seconds.

Merryprankster knows a great deal about correctedness.

Merryprankster
11-04-2001, 12:34 AM
Thank You Watchman.

In the context of this particular discussion, that's really cool coming from a Kung Fu guy.

Jaguar Wong
11-04-2001, 05:32 PM
That was a great post, Merryprankster. :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

Tigerstyle
11-04-2001, 05:54 PM
Merryprankster,
You set a great example for the MMA's (well, for everyone actually) on this board.

Gotta give the thumbs up for your post about depth. I can't get the icon to appear here though, so just make fists and point your thumbs to the sky and imagine it's from me :) .

Archangel
11-04-2001, 08:00 PM
I think you shut him up!!! ;)

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-05-2001, 12:54 AM
i think you and your post suck big beefy balls.

matt sense doesn't exist. it's just propoganda to keep me from training the real arts with real depth.

i wonder how you would sound saying all that with my c0ck in your mouth.

where's my beer?

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-05-2001, 12:56 AM
sorry . ..

i liked your post too but couldn't handle all the compliments. i figured you needed at least one senseless slam without any trace of logic to argue the point ballance it all out.

good post man.

where's my beer?

Watchman
11-05-2001, 01:07 AM
All your thread are belong to Merryprankster.

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-05-2001, 01:17 AM
haha . .. what game had that as the intro??

i remember it was all your bases are belong to us . . and i'm almost positive it was a sega game .. . but i can't remember which one.

where's my beer?

GunnedDownAtrocity
11-05-2001, 01:19 AM
zeroe wing ... here's a link to a movie of the actual game intro ....

http://www.planettribes.com/allyourbase/video3.shtml

has funny tecno music and other sh!t after it too ..

where's my beer?

Richie
11-05-2001, 03:14 AM
You clowns are forgettin the topic.

Watchman
11-05-2001, 04:13 AM
The topic is that Merryprankster owns you.

The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will find peace with yourself.

Merryprankster
11-05-2001, 04:54 PM
Thanks guys. I'm sincerely appreciative.

GDA, that was some FUNNY **** buddy! Keep up the good work.

Merryprankster
11-07-2001, 06:24 PM
ttt