View Full Version : Brenden Lai discussion

07-22-2000, 09:01 AM
Before I tell you guys what I think of him, what do you think?

bamboo_ leaf
07-22-2000, 11:10 AM
A Sifu of the old school, very good, extremly quick and real in applacation of 7* mantis.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

07-22-2000, 11:22 AM
I don't think that you can say he's very good. I think he's okay, not the best and not the worst. As for as application, he knows what he's doing for the most part. But his main weakness is that he uses too much power. When you use too much power , you can't be flexible wtih your technique. If you use too much power then in a fight, the strongest person wins. If you are flexible and use the right amoutn of power, then true skill will determine a fight. He also does his forms slow so it lacks smoothness and spring action. Everying is there but he needs to make the form flow.

bamboo_ leaf
07-22-2000, 11:27 AM
your right you don't think.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

07-22-2000, 11:49 AM
word unless you will come forward and show your skill please dont post about others thanks.

07-22-2000, 11:51 AM

Think? You said " YOUR RIGHT." Let me correct your grammer. It's Y O U ' R E.

Now about Brenden Lai. You don't agree with me that he uses too much power? THis is a respectful discussion about Lai. I have more respect for him than other sifus.

07-22-2000, 12:28 PM
word do you even train in the arts? If so then who is your Sifu? If not then why are you posting? All I have seen from your posts are slams of well respected Sifu's. You dont need to answer me unless you want to tell us who you are untill then you will just be a troll.

07-23-2000, 01:05 AM
WORD you are so lacking in the basics that no one really listens to what you say. The fact is that no one with the necessary qualifications to make these judgements WOULD.

07-23-2000, 01:15 AM
Lack basics my foot. You guys honestly don't have the sharp eye to see what he has NO spring action?

07-23-2000, 02:38 AM
I wasn't sure before, but now i'm positive. You are a complete moron. What's next? Bruce Lee Yelled too much or Jackie Chan has too much hair? To much power? Jeez, this is such hogwash. Next you'll say that they are all to short for kung fu or too....whatever.

07-23-2000, 05:41 AM
It looks like none of you know what praying mantis spring action is. Abel can you tell me what spring action comes from? If you keep pausing then you lose that spring action. WHen you do a form, it's best not to pause. Think of it as a chain whip. It keeps going cycle after cycle. If you stop the whip, then you have to generate power again. Same thing goes for hand forms. If you stop at every movement you won't have the power cycle from the previous movement to carry onto the next. Get it moron?

07-23-2000, 06:45 AM
yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz snivel on....

07-23-2000, 06:50 AM
I would like to know if Brenden Lai knows Southern Mantis also?

[This message has been edited by Sam (edited 07-23-2000).]

07-23-2000, 06:52 AM
Word, how do you initiate your "chut sing gwat sao"? From inside out, or from outside in?


07-23-2000, 07:28 AM
word you idiot Brenden Lai had a huge storke some years back its incredible he can do kung fu at all and as for you word, Well where do you train? I would love to hear what your Sifu thinks of all the **** you talk if you have a Sifu that is, And for the record I dont think you do.

KrAzy FiLiPino
07-23-2000, 08:19 AM
He posted before that his Sifu does not want his name to be made public. For what reason I don't know..Word can you at least tell me what STYLE you study? Thanks for any response.


07-23-2000, 08:34 AM
He has said that he studies 7* mantis under the Wong Hun Fun lineage. Is that true? Who knows.


07-23-2000, 08:46 AM

Are there any sifu's that you do respect? I am just curious. It seems to me that you do not respect any sifu's here in the US. I am also curious, what are your feelings about Sifu Su Yu Chang, Sifu John Cheng, Sifu He Jian Bao, Sifu Adam Hsu, Sifu Wu Song Fa? who are the sifu's you actually do respect? What are your credentials to judge these sifu's? I am just really curious.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

07-23-2000, 11:51 AM
Of your list, I respect Su Yu Chang and Adam Hsu. Their skill level is high. I also respect Chan Poi,Ken Chung and Ben Derr. I posted this in another thread. Loki, can you translate that movement in english please? I will tell you how I perform that move .

Laughing Buddha
07-23-2000, 12:07 PM
Brendan Lai is my Si Gung and while it is very tempting for me to resort to an ad hominem attack in response to Word's inflammatory argument, I shall refrain from doing so.

How much power is "too much power"? Isn't this very subjective? For example, if I am capable of a total of 100 Kilojoules of output but only use 20 Kilojoules it would only represent 20% of my available power. However, if you were only capable of a total of 50 Kilojoules and expended the same 20 Kilojoules, it would represent 40% of your available power. As such, what would be a minor expenditure of energy to me would be a major expenditure of energy to you. I have personally experienced Si Gung's power AFTER his recovery from his stroke (and he wasn't even breathing hard). Also, if he had that much power AFTER his stroke, imagine how much power he had BEFORE his stroke. So, unless you know how much "maximum" power someone can generate, you cannot say that he is using "too much power." As such, your argument about "using too much power preventing flexibility" kind of falls flat.

As for forms, while it is true that Praying Mantis attacks can be continuous, it does not HAVE to be so. The forms are interpreted differently from practitioner to practitioner and even among the students of any one particular Si Fu. And none of them are "wrong" per se. For example, you might interpret moves 1 through 3 in any particular form to be a continous attack, with moves 4 through 7 to be the counterattack. I, on the hand, in the same form, might interpret moves 1 through 5 as a continuous attack with moves 6 and 7 the counterattack. As such, any form has pauses for you to defend, focus your attacks or respond to counterattacks from your opponent. If you have ever done a Ling form in Praying Mantis, you will know this. A continuous attack or defense against a single opponent implies that you are prescient and know what the opponent is going to do next, thus defeating the purpose of forms, particularly Ling forms. And some forms are not merely to demonstrate your moves against one attacker but against multiple attackers coming from different directions (such as when you execute "Bui How Choi Po" and reverse directions for the first time in the Bung Bo form.) How could you possibly be doing a continuous attack against two opponents coming from two radically different directions?

A "Laughing Budda" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.

* I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kwoon, so any errors I make are mine alone.

07-23-2000, 12:37 PM

That was an inspired post. Too bad it was wasted on the likes of worblehead. I know your Si Gung and you would never know he had a stroke.

07-23-2000, 12:54 PM
Krazy Filipino,

T'ol, pinoy rin ako!!!! I was just curious what style you study? Who is your sifu and from what lineage are your from? As for myself, I am a practitioner of Bajiquan, Piquazhang, and Seven Star mantis. My lineage comes from Sifu Su Yu Chang, Sifu Adam Hsu, and the late Grandmaster Liu Yun Qiao. Anyways, hope to hear from you and ingatz!


You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

07-23-2000, 01:13 PM
The last time I was working on this
my computer internet connection timed out
and booted me out and I lost my reply posting.

I'll try to be quicker and not so wordy
this time around.

This is specifically geared to the
chat member WORD.

Usually I don't like to speak bad to someone
that I am not familiar with, however,
either you haven't been taught properly
by your WHF lineage Sifu or you're not
a good student.

Also, you've never answered some of the other
member's questions - especially the ones related to why / how / what your reasons are,
what your skill level is, for making your statements about Sifu Lai.
Please provide us with this information.

Nor have you directly identified who your
WHF lineage Mantis Sifu is.
Why don't you do so ?

Also, it is very unusal that you don't
understand about Chut Sing Gwat Sao
and need to have this "translated in English".

I don't know whether or not to expect an
answer to this posting being that you've
not done so to some of the other member's

Anyway, just my input / questions about this


07-23-2000, 05:15 PM
Word, I request that you stop this idiocy on the behalf of your sifu, whomever it may be(If you actually have a sifu).
No sifu should have to deal with a disrespectfull student as yourself.
It is quite obvious by your posting that while you seem to have a grasp on some of what you are saying, you have not actually participated in a Lai seminar, nor do you have a full grasp of what you are talking about.
Anyone can talk a good game when the masks are on......

[This message has been edited by BeiTangLang (edited 07-24-2000).]

07-23-2000, 11:07 PM

You made my point. As you know , "chut sing gwat sao" is a very basic move and can be found in Sup Ba Sao (18 elders) which is a very basic form . It can also be found at the end of Bung Bo (crushing step) the mother form of all northern mantis styles (w/ the exception of Wah Lum)as well as in many other forms. You can do do it in line drills alternating left and right sides with Tong Choy. It is interesting to see that such an "expert" would not even know what this means.

Sorry Word, but you need to fess up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


[This message has been edited by loki (edited 07-24-2000).]

07-25-2000, 03:13 AM
Explain to me where that movement is in bong bo and I will be delighted to explain the application. Is it the 7 star chop the waist? At the end of bong bo? After this movement that you won't transalate is it a left hook and a left backfist? Followed by a left mantis trap, and right punch?

Well here..

My right foot is at 45 degrees. My left foot is in the 7 star stance. My left hand is pulling the guy. My right hand is chopping his waist or kidney I would be pulling the guy towards my left shoulder in a downward motion.

07-25-2000, 03:59 AM
If Wing Lam had 7* mantis videos out, that would be the exact app he would display. It's in every book, video and article ever published. It is also the most simplistic and benign application that exists for that movement and the one a mantis shi fu would teach to a student that they didn't really value...

07-25-2000, 04:02 AM
Word, I still wonder why you haven't responded to Loki's last post.
Just curious

If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!

07-25-2000, 04:08 AM
word is an IDIOT /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

07-25-2000, 04:20 AM
In Bung Bo it's 2 moves before Tong Long Bow Sim.


07-25-2000, 04:20 AM
I have read that Brendan Lai is also a master of Tai Chi Mantis. Is that true? If so, does he sell any vidoes on it?

07-25-2000, 08:40 AM

You keep saying these Chinese names. If you would actually translate them and explain then we would actually get somewhere. Get it in your head that I need english translation.

07-25-2000, 10:11 AM
This is reply to the question by
the chat member Curious.

Sifu Lai is not a Tai Chi Mantis Sifu.
He had known Master Chu Chuk Kai who was
a very famous Tai Chi Praying Mantis Sifu.

Sifu Lai is specifically a Wong Hon Fun
lineage Sifu.

As far as I know, Sifu Lai isn't selling
any videos concerning
Tai Chi Praying Mantis.

Hope this helps, however, you should have
asked this as a separate post rather than
be a part of this thread that Word started.


07-25-2000, 10:35 AM

It really is not important. If you were really serious and knowledgeable about the mantis style surely you would know even the most simplest of terms whether in english or in chinese. You hear these terms constantly almost from day one. Before you criticize other people and the way they do their art you should know a little something about the style which you profess to know so well. I wish you could see that I am really not trying to knock you. The problem is that you pose all these questions to our fellow posters and continually dis them but yet you still remain a mystery to everyone. You have never answered any of the questions which have been asked of you. Why not? If you and your Sifu are that good, why not let us know who you are? You should be very proud that you have a Sifu that is 'better' than all of our Sifu and tell everyone who he is.

With regards to the terms...and let me point out that I did say the last two moves before Tong Long Bow Sim (which you definitely should have known) and the first move in Sup Ba Sao ( you mean you don't know the name of 7 * mantis' most basic form?)I will gladly translate for you.

1-Bung Bo (crushing step) Not the most basic but normally the first form taught in the system
2-Sup Ba Sao (18 elders) Usually the 2nd form taught. My Sifu teaches it 1st because it is a very basic form compared to Bung Bo.
3-Tong Long Bow Sim (Mantis catches cicada) A very well known term even by those outside mantis. It is the finishing move in the majority of the forms .
4- Chut Sing (7 Star/stance) You should have at least known that.
5- Gwat/Diu Sao (hook hand) The mantis hook . It is not the hook itself as that is Diu. It is the action that is done w/Diu.

So , Chut Sing Gwat Sao is the action of hooking the hand w/ a mantis claw/hand while in a 7 star stance. It is the very 1st move in 18 elders which is followed by a chopping fist and 2 moves before the end of Crushing step which is followed by a straight punch in a 7 star stance.

Hope I have been very clear and please think about what I said.


07-25-2000, 10:53 AM
I don't need to think about what you said. In 18 ancestors the mantis hook is done with my left hand in an outside circular motion. The real quality of that movement is in the snap of the wrist. Catches the cicada is in the beginning of bong bo and at the end. I won't explain this application because I know not many people know it. All I can say is that I end up trapping both of your arms with my left hand and have my right hand free to do whatever I want. What are your questions on bong bo?

1. cat stance right punch
2. jump back into a cat stance, mantis catches cicada
3. crushing step, left palm strike
4. jump and righ tgrab with left punch, crane stance
5. elbow, kneeling stance(locks the guys elbow)
6. both arms at the left, right kick to the left
7 horsestance, arm bar
8, left mantis hook, right hammer strike
9. 1-2-3o move
10, cat stance take down ( looks like uppercut)
11. left palm strike
12. step up in right front stance, right punch,
13, go back to horsestnace, arm bar
14. crushing step, left grab, chop the waist
15. shuffle up, left uppercut
16. crane stance ...and SO ON!

07-25-2000, 11:16 AM
Wow! You were just waiting for me huh? Ok, so don't think about it. You show the quality of your Kung Fu by the way you carry yourself and the way you talk. Let me tell you, it is very low caliber.

Let's see now, you left out the straight right punch in a right bow and arrow in between moves # 3 & 4. In move # 5 , locking the elbow is a valid interpretation of the technique but very basic. Can you think of anything else that can be done there? In move # 10, I could see the action of the hand as a possible throw/takedown but it would not be the natural thing to do and since most of the techniques flow from one move to the next that would not fit in with the context with which it is being done in the sequence of the form. "Looks like an uppercut"? Why, that is exactly what it is my friend. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'll be happy to discuss any of this further with you but look this over first and and see what you can come up with.


[This message has been edited by loki (edited 07-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by loki (edited 07-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by loki (edited 07-26-2000).]

07-25-2000, 11:23 AM
It looks like an uppercut but it's actually a takedown. Most people do an uppercut but I guess that's alright. The locking the elbow move is from 2 man bong bo. Yes, I learned the 2 man version as well. I was just simply going through the movements to show that I know that form. I hate typing about technqiues so I won't go into extreme detail. You can't judge someone's martial arts ability by the way they talk. There are many sifus who think they are the **** and show it too. Some of them are actually good. Are you saying that good sifus don't have egos? Bruce Lee was good and he had a big ego.

07-25-2000, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kookyguy:
word you idiot Brenden Lai had a huge storke some years back its incredible he can do kung fu at all.[/quote]

I had heard the same thing about his stroke. About a year later, I saw him shopping at a dept. store. His face was reddish/purple, his arm was limited in movement, and his speech was slow but deliberate. A few more years passed and he was talking normally and he had the gait of a young man - you would not have known he even had a stroke.

Having been acquainted w/BL since 1976, I suspect his stroke may have been dietary. In those days, who knew about cholesterol and nutritrous dieting. Your sifu may remember that his wife, sister, and BL often ate a meal of fatty soup noodles w/very little veggies. This was when the kwoon was on Divisadero St. and Al Novak use to help BL sell martial art supplies there. Today, we know the diet is very important w/serious training. He must have a great determination and physical therapist to come out of his paralysis.

07-25-2000, 12:28 PM
Bruce Lee would have told you to your face if he thought you were no good.

You may know the 'ling' for two man bung bo but that is the basic version for doing 2 man forms. Ling are simply 'matching' forms. This means that your partner simply places his arms w/ open hands in certain places throughout the routine while you apply the techniques. There is a more advanced version
( can't remember the term ) which has both people doing the techniques from the form on each other. This version is more alive and more practical. Like I said before , the elbow lock application is ok but remember that you are going from one extreme to the other. You are going from a high position , Bak Sae Tou Sik ( White snake spits out it's tongue) which you translate as grab & punch in a crane stance to a low kneeling stance w/ an elbow. It makes more sense to grab and strike then immediately go into the kneeling stance and strike the opp.'s lead inner thigh w/ the elbow. The following move is a bong choy ( crushing/back fist ). In keeping w/ the sequence of the form after the elbow to the thigh you can apply a single leg takedown w/ the bong choy move.

The uppercut move is the end portion of a trapping sequence. After the grab and hammerfist, the opp. blocks. You do the 1-2-3 or hook, grapple, pluck sequence. Assuming this is also blocked (the logical defense here being a pak sao) you would proceed to pull in ( your outer arm is on the opp.'s inner arm) as you slide the uppercut in. To say this technique is "actually" this or that is to limit yourself to the possibilities that are available to you. It is not so much the techniques that are important but the principles. Mantis is very, very high on principles and cannot be limited to just one way of doing something. Oh, and BTW, now that you know what move I was talking about, how would you use it?


07-25-2000, 06:41 PM
Back to the original statement of the thread; how do you know what Sigung Lai does Word?? Have you ever been tossed to the ground by him? Thrown into a lock by him? Stood there going through a series of movements with a fellow student while he is there watching with an evil grin saying "Faster! More power!! Bah!!! You would already be dead!"? I doubt it. I would venture to say that he can handle himself quite well even today. He has a very short & powerful jing that he uses quite well. Which is why I ask you, WORD, what do you base your opinion on?

07-25-2000, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the info. As far as you saying that I shoul have started a new thread, people here have criticized me for creating a new thread to ask a question when I could have asked it in an earlier thread. I am just trying to avoid any hostility here. Peace.

07-25-2000, 10:17 PM
I base my opinion on the 4 hand forms that I have seen him do and 2 man excercises. I have seen him do bong bo, spear hand, white apte steals the peach, and plum blossom fist. He's actually not that bad at mantis. He knows what he is doing. I would say that he's "acceptable" for being a sifu. The others like Jon Funk ( WHO USES WAY WAY WAY TOO MUCH POWER) are not. The reason I chose to post this thread is because everyone's eye sees something different. I wanted to see what others look for when determining someone elses skill . You may look for speed, another may look for power, and I may look for sharpness. It's nto a negative post against BL but it is a post that everyone should put more thought into. Bob likes how BL does this. Billy doesn't like how BL does this or how he uses this. Jack likes this and that.

07-25-2000, 10:22 PM
Thanks for clarifying your intent. Everyone in entitled to seeing things in their own way.

Young Mantis
07-26-2000, 02:20 AM

Thanks finally for answering at least how you base your opinions for Sigung Brendan Lai. But consider this: Your very strong opinions about his martial skill and understanding of Praying Mantis are based on one performance, of 4 specific forms, and certain techniques he chose to demonstrate. I am guessing you are using the Living Legends tape filmed at the Wah Lum Temple in Florida.

Just consider that perhaps it was not his best performance. Perhaps he did his forms differently for that tape since it was supposed to be semi-instructional. I have seen other footage of him doing other forms where he looks much different. I have seen him move in person and he looks much different. I have touched hands with him and he FEELS much different. So I find it difficult for you to have so much conviction in your opinions of someone without even having met the person or seen him live.

I agree that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions but I would advise you to keep a more open mind about other people, not just martial artists unless you know otherwise firsthand.

Also, I think it is very presumptuous of you to think that only you and your sifu knows all the correct applications to the forms. While I agree there are many unqualified sifu's out there, you should show a little more humility. If you know it, good for you. You found a real sifu. But no sense bragging, it doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

Just some humble advice.

Yee Ho Society
07-26-2000, 02:51 AM
What style to you commit to and What lineage are you representing?

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

[This message has been edited by Yee Ho Society (edited 07-26-2000).]

07-26-2000, 05:25 AM
Awile back he claimed to study 7 * mantis under the Wong Hun Fun lineage.

Word, you have stated in previous posts the Sifu you like from several styles. I don't recall you ever mentioning who you like in 7*. Can you tell me who you think is good ?


07-26-2000, 11:20 AM
You can never fully de-cellerate a chain whip. Thats just silly. Even on a shoulder, forearm or body wrap. You have to twist at the last moment or the beater pounds you.

Bad analogy or what?

07-26-2000, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by word:
If you stop the whip, then you have to generate power again. Same thing goes for hand forms. If you stop at every movement you won't have the power cycle from the previous movement to carry onto the next. Get it moron?[/quote]

Who ever told you the techniques in a form flow together?

Without intervals between notes, there is no music. A interval is the moment (temporal vs. causual) between two ends (in terms of the ends of a guitar string or spring).

Notice how many illustrated forms begin and end with wu chi. The steps in between are intervals between two ends. And within those, each technique is an end intervated by another.

The structual form is discontinuous. Like in most arts. Ala polythetics. The interval allows for the highest degree of possibilitys within a ethical structure, the midpoint/interval.

We are talking about events, and moments (from whence we derive momentum). Pendulums swing and arent used as hands on a clock as your suggesting.

A complex tensegrity model would involve two pendulums connected by a spring.

You are using causual consideration that should not exist in martial arts. The only reason they do is due to ignorance, stupidiy and charlatanism.

Even more ironic when you have guys teaching from the auspice of taoist or buddhist belief.

Time is unimportant. And an illusion, like the appearance of smooth, flowing movement in forms.

Sit up and take notice. Or is that notes...

07-26-2000, 03:13 PM
yeah, Whatever.

07-26-2000, 03:32 PM
I agree that with out individual notes there can be no music. BUT, many of the best composers ever used idividual notes that flow into one another. That is the way I look at my techniques. Each technique is individual, but, to make a masterpiece, sometimes they have to flow....

Yee Ho Society
07-27-2000, 03:49 AM
Word, Still waiting for you to answer my previous post.

Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

07-27-2000, 05:19 AM

Get in line my friend



07-27-2000, 05:53 AM
Chut sing tong long . Wong Hon Fun lineage.

06-09-2001, 08:16 PM

06-10-2001, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ffdsadfs [/quote]

That's the name of your sifu, or it means that you learn by video tapes? Are you rolls/ralek brother or something? :p

Well, Brendan Lai is my SiGung and I think that you can't judge the ability of someone just watching one performance...

-- Kiasyd

06-11-2001, 02:33 AM

I agree that "too much power" makes techniques inflexible.

Regarding Sifu Lai though, I can say that his application of techniques is very flexible. It's extremely difficult even to detect his force as he changes from one technique to another. He is light and quick, and it feels like you're countering empty air. Then it's too late and you get hit. ...video appearances perhaps to the contrary to some.

Word, would you tell us some more about training under your teacher? I take it your traditional point of view on kf may come from him? No need to name names if you don't want to.