View Full Version : Greetings from a Sifu of Seven Star Mantis

12-14-1999, 12:51 AM
Greetings to one and all. I am Sifu Carl Albright. I have trained in Seven Star for 40 years. I will do my best to give you informed, accurate and complete answers to your questions. Please be patient. I am not on line all of the time but will make my best effort to keep up the pace. My web site is up now and being added to every week. http://members.xoom.com/lawclansman
Hopefully the site will take care of some of the basic questions. Ask away.


12-18-1999, 07:55 AM
Sifu Albright:
Let me be the first to say that i found your website thanks through (Relster) to be one of the best on the Seven Star Praying Mantis System.

There are those who say that there are about 30 to 40 set's to the system,but your saying that there 110 set's in the Seven Star Praying Mantis System!

Under the Chiu Chi Man Lineage who was the sixth generation inheritor of the Seven Star Praying Mantis System under Law Gong Yuk.

Who then passed the System down to his nephew Chiu Leun.Who you have stated you trained under but most importantly you have the proof to back up what you say.

Something that a lot of Seven Star Praying Mantis Sifu's don't really do.

So with that being said I ask you Sifu Albright what do you have to say about all this?

The reason I ask this question is because I know for a fact that there are a lot of Seven Star Praying Mantis Teachers & student's who will say that they Know the whole Seven Star Praying Mantis System.


[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 12-19-1999).]

12-19-1999, 12:08 AM
First let me say thanks for checking the web site and be assured that it is far from finished. I am presently adding to the theory and technique section mostly. This is because the history has been repeated sooo many times before that I am concentrating on the actual style itself. I think there is far too little on this subject. Later I will finish the history section.
Next to address your question of the forms. It is true that most mantis sifu have not learned the complete system. This is not such a bad thing because traditionally only the keepers of the style would be taught everything. Also there were people that thought there where too many forms even without learning the complete system so they picked out enough for them. Sifu Su Yu Chang has stated this about the seven star that he knows.
The book Shandong Mantis lists 57 hand sets for the seven star style and GIVES THE COMPLETE forms via the kuen po "form speak". This is the way the forms are kept (via the kuen po). I have the kuen po for 85 of the forms in my lineage. My sifu Chiu Leun has the rest.
I met Wong Hon Fun when he was alive and he in fact knew more forms than is taught in his present day line. People use to argue with me about a certian form LOK YING JEUNG (descending eagle palm). They would say that the Wong Hon Fun line has no such set. However in the Wong Hon Fun 40th yearbook THERE IT IS.
I have spent 12 years in China. Been to the ShanDong all mantis tournement. Been to the Taiwan mantis conference. Trained with many 7th generaton mantis masters (seven star and others) Researched mantis my whole life. Believe me I know what I am talking about. The fact of the matter is that I know the Wong Hon Fun side AND the Chiu Chi Man side. I am taking this opportunity to make public (with permission from my sifu) the Chiu Chi Man side so that a proper A B comparison can be made.

Let me also state that BOTH masters were great. However, Law Gwong Yuk gave the school to Chiu Chi Man. When Wong Hon Fun left the school, Chiu Chi Man was still learning from Law Gwong Yuk.
Now, is it necessary to learn 80 forms? ABSOLUTELY NOT. So why then are there so many forms? Well, unfortunately, it is the Chinese way. Let me explain. The COMPLETE seven star style is SPREAD OUT throughout the forms. Many of the forms are repetetive. But each contains something unique. THAT'S THE NEW MATERIAL. If you take out all of the repeated movements, you would have a lot less forms. But it's too late. The system has already been spread out.

That is why there are so many forms. To keep the COMPLETE style for the few that would learn them. I will not condense the style even though I know the differences in the forms. I teach in the traditional manner. Remember it's not what you NEED. When fighting, you only use a certian amount of techniques. But why limit yourself to the techniques that every one has? learn more so that you can have a better choice. A more informed choice. Do you think ANY sifu wil easily part with his most cherished material? I know it's a lot. Buy hey, you've got your whole life ahead of you. What else do you have to do? Even after over 40 years of training in seven star I am still learning. And for those that say ther is no time to practice or it's too much to remember ther is a saying. Let those that say it can not be done mak way for those that are doing it.


12-21-1999, 03:58 PM

I have two questions for you. One is in 7 star mantis when you do a right groin kick and jump back, flip the palms 3 times, right left and right, what is the application for flipping the palm 3 times?

Also how many drunken hand forms are there? Do the 2 man forms of them exist?

12-21-1999, 06:46 PM
Woo woo!!!!!

MantiStyle! Good to see you back. I missed you man!!!

Still trying to find out what the deal is on those flipping palms, huh?

Good luck in your search!

12-21-1999, 11:50 PM
Mantis Style:
The Sequence you refer to is the Bai Moon Toy (closing gate kick) also called "main combination". At the end of the sequence there is a palming action. The main palming action is called TIU JEUNG (flip palm) There are other palming actions that occur but right now I believe you are refering to the tiu jeung.

The three palms have a dual purpose. They can be BOTH blocks and attacks. I hope I can explain it in print so that you can picture it. 1. The opponent execute a straight punch (keeping it simple)
2. The first tiu is used to block or parry or deflect the attacking arm.
3. The second and third tiu can be used as strikes.

The second tiu could also be used to block a second attack.

The 3 tiu also are a trap / catch and break sequence.

Three tiu can be used to iniciate the attack after the kick. (called attacking while on defence)

Three tius can be used as a "flowering" technique. This distracts the opponent with hand movement while your real intention is a kick. The flowers draw the opponents hands upward while leaving the lower regions unguarded.

All of the applications I have described are more apparent in the Chiu Chi Man sets.
There are always more than one application for ANY technique. And as I said, there are variations of the tiu jeung in other forms.

In regards to the drunken sets. There are only 3 true drunken hand forms. However, there are numerous other forms that contain sections with drunken technique. Techniques that are not in the drunken sets. The drunken sets are Joy Lo Han Kuen (drunken bodhisaatva (excuse the spelling) and the Joy Bo Tong Long (drunken stepping mantis)
The third is Joy Baat Sin Kuen (drunken 8 immortals). (Hey thats not on the list at my site!!! you have eeked another one out of me lol)

There is a two person form but only one person is playing the drunken mantis. The other is straight mantis.

Feel free to ask more about the three palms if I didn't quite cover it for you.


wisdom mind
12-22-1999, 11:08 PM
Does your school teach the drunken mantis?
Is there an "average" time that one must practice to get to that form?

Thank you, Happy Holidays

12-22-1999, 11:36 PM
wisdom mind
Unlike what you may have seen before, the mantis drunken sets are not for appearance alone. They contain a wide range of practical applications. And they are not easily gotten. Although I can't give you an average time I can give you the requirments. After 15 forms you can learn the drunken Lo Han and drunken dahn dao OR learn other things that are available at that time. After 40 forms the drunken step mantis, drunken staff, drunken gim, drunken 9 section whip, drunken magic staff (3 ft staff), drunke gan (ribbed sword)are available and after 70 forms the drunken eight immortals is available. The drunken two man set is available after you learn the drunken step mantis.

There is no great advantage to learning the drunken sets only. The drunken sets are based on the style and your knowledge of the system plays an important role in learning and applying the drunken forms. Furthermore, the drunken forms are rather short in comparision to some of the other sets and drunken sets do not contain the best techniques of the system. The drunken sets are there to complete the entire mantis curriculum and in that regard is how you should learn them.


12-26-1999, 01:08 AM
Sifu Albright,

Glad you're on board.

The tiu jeung application(s) formed the crux of a discussion that MantiStyle and I had earlier. He challenged me to give a satisfactory application of the movement, and , up until now, I have chosen not to respond.

However, you seem very well-versed in mantis orthodoxy, so I was hoping to get your opinion on one particular application I came up with. The others you described were either similar or along the same lines of others I had come up with but had dismissed as "too simplistic" (not that they are; I just wanted to come with something a little less obvious):

The three palms are executed in an empty stance, if memory serves, which always implies a kicking or intruding foot motion in my mind. The application goes:

1. The opponent leads with a forward hand strike to your upper torso/head area. The first palm leads the strike away and your opponent into your inner range. Depending on positioning, you may or may not execute a kick to groin/legs.

2. The second palm is a strike. Again, depending on positioning, you can attack head, side of ribcage, solar plexus, whatever. At the same time, you either step behind or into the opponent's root.

3. The third palm is a takedown, regardless of positioning.

I'd love to get your opinion on this. It's the best I could come up with not being overly familiar with the 7-Star Mantis system.



12-31-1999, 08:32 AM
The techniques /applications that you described would work fine. However strictly speaking to the technique of the flip palms, when you apply the takedown, you have left the sequence in question and gone ahead to another. Certianly, you can always go into something else but for the sake of the original question in regerds to the flip palms, I'll give you a couple of less obvious applications.

The opponent kicks and it is caught with the first palm. The second palm can strike or block an oncomming blow. It can also be used to stab under the leg at a pressure point behind the knee. The foot is as you stated always prepared to kick when in the riding tiger stance (cat stance) and with the opponents leg in the air you can kick his groin or standing leg. Then the hand holding the leg can be used to throw up the opponents leg to off balance him.

Here is another:

This is against the spinning backfist used by many martial artists. As the opponent spins around the first palm blocks the spinning backfist. The second palms are used to get under the opponents arms in a full nelson or chin na neck lock (part of the 108 locks) The leg can be used to kick the back of the opponents leg to bring him to his knees.

As I said before, there are many applications for any technique. Even if you are not a seven star practitioner per say, you will find that your own personal experiences will go a long way in determining an application in other styles than your own as you have shown in your post.


12-31-1999, 08:36 AM
Happy New Year to one and all. I wish you much luck and sucess in all of your endeavors.
There is new material on the web site. The first LCMAA free lesson on the net.


Hope you like the first installment. It will take a while to load but I think its worth it.


01-02-2000, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the input, Sifu Albright. One of my hobbies is forms analysis, and the perspective of the non-style practitioner is sometimes confusing, as I'm not always sure of what's considered orthodox in a style. Then again, when considering the wide range of what's available in kung-fu, perhaps keeping "orthodoxy" to a minimum might be a good thing.

Again, my thanks!


01-27-2000, 08:30 AM
Greetings again;

My site url is now
Getting a lot of hits and thanks to all who visited me. I have gotten together with my old friend Aaron Banks for a show at Madison Square Garden April 26 2000. There will be a lot of different martial artists of all types of styles. A list of some of them is on my site but more will be added.

On another note, it seems my site has caught the attention (and maybe wrath) of some people. I just found out about it. They are complaining about the number of forms listed on my site. However, none of them are from the Chiu Chi Man lineage. I thought I made it clear that its not the number of forms you know but how well you know the forms you practice. The form list on my site is intended to give info on what I do. Nothing more is implied.


02-07-2000, 01:58 AM
Im a young Kung fu student in Portugal. Althoug i keep a low profile, i read these posts very frequently...
Its very interesting that Sifu Albright allows himself to come here and us some of his knoledge, congratiolations...and thanks.

In my school we practice what is told us to be traditional Shaollin Chuan style...
we have learn many sets, and that includes two tang lang chuan sets... now my knoledge about the tang lang styles is very limited but what i have learn so far made me be inlove with it...specialy a set that i have been training and developing for more than a year now, and it belongs to Meihua tang lang chuan (Plumm Blossom Praying Mantis). There many 'weird' thecniches in this set, and some of them are somehow close to what i have seen as the drunken .
ok...enought of that, ill go to may questions:
1) its easy to get some historical information about 7 star, 8 steps,6 harmony, but i have eard about other tang lang styles, like Taichi tang lang or even the Meihua tang lang (and others)...so, whats the diference bettween all these styles, in techniques, aplications, filosofy and history.
2)im confused about the meaning of the drunken sets discussed ine here...what does 7 star has to do with the drunken style?
3) isnt tang lang (in its original form) a fist techniq? i have visited Sifu Albright homepage, and i have seen the use of weapons.When that happen in 7 star (who introduced it) and does the same happens on others tang lang styles...

wow...i guess that sure is enought, if i could have a reply to this it would be great.

thanks in advance

Rui Procopio

02-07-2000, 03:18 AM
Greetings Rui:
For starters, if you go the
you will find links to other mantis sites on the net. Check here first for plum blossom and other styles. Also on this site is a link to the MANTIS CAVE. A lot to be found here.
As for the drunken forms, there is debate to when the forms came into the style of 7 star. These forms comprise fighting techniques combined with staggering, tipping, leaning, rolling, pretending to drink wine and other things make the practitioner appear drunk. It is confusing and suprising to the opponent because he can't figure out what you will do next.This as well as weapon forms were taught at the Ching Wu association. Some of the forms in 7 Star were borrowed from the Ching Wu curriculum. Other weapon sets are from the Shaolin repetoire and have been in mantis a long time.


02-08-2000, 12:21 AM
Sifu Albright, I just finished looking at your website. I am very impressed with your system. I am intrigued by the theory of the inner and outer gates. I am astounded at the number of sets you have learned. We also have set sparrings in our system. As well as Catchings (the opposite sides) to the 1st 4 sets. Wishing you well, Toddzilla.

It is better to have not fought at all, than to have won a thousand battles.- Chee Kim Thong

02-08-2000, 05:12 AM
Thanks for the compliment. I also have a lot of matching hand drills and sets. These come in two types. The ling nad the Dui Chat. In a ling form onme person basically does the moves from a form for example Bung Bo and the other matches the movements with a relitivly simple counter. His job is to match the moves of the first person. The dui chat is different. It is still a matching set but both partners are doing moves from two different sets or in the case of bung bo BOTH partners are using techniques found in Bung Bo to counter each other's techniques. In other words the dui chat is a more advanced approach to two man forms. More of this info will appear on my site as I update it.


02-08-2000, 08:05 AM
That's extremely like Gor Chor Catchings. It's nice to know that some other systems have a similar methodology.

Krispy Jing
02-09-2000, 03:45 AM
Sifu Albright,

I'm new to this site. I just wanted to sat hello. I'm impressed by your knowledge and willingness to pass it on. I've been training for about 12 years and I've trained in mantis for the last two. My sifu is Kurt Wong who is a student of Master Su Yu Chang. I live in Alaska but grew up in Queens. I also participated in Aaron Banks tournaments when I trained in Goju Ryu under Shihan Gotay. I visit home at least once a year and I always try to visit Master Su when I come. Maybe I'll get a chance to come out to Brooklyn and visit you guys as well.


02-09-2000, 06:27 AM
Hello and greetings from Alaska. I am Krispy Jing's kung fu brother and I have been studying martial arts for about 10 yrs. I have trained in 7-star mantis for about 3 yrs straight with Sifu Kurt Wong. I am also impressed with your messages on the post regarding history and lineage.

I am planning to move to the Philippines within a year. unfortunately I will not be continuing my Baji instructions because our lineage is not in the Philippines yet. But I have heard they teach 7 star mantis over there. I was just curious if you know of any teachers that teaches seven star mantis in the Philippines. Thank you for your time.

02-09-2000, 08:17 AM
Krispy and Ba ji
Thanks for the compliments. If you get to NY krispy give us a buzz, visitors are always welcome. Check the site for address and phone #. Ba Ji, the Chinese martial arts are quite popular in the phillipines and I'm sure you won't have trouble finding a teacher. I believe that Shakesphere Chan (7 star mantis) is teaching there I know his student Alex Ko is in magazines of late. there is also the Ching Wu association in the phillipines aand you can find their site through I believe
If thats not the url then check the search engines for ching wu or jing mo.


02-10-2000, 11:03 AM
Howdy!I need a double ax set on book or tape.Are there any? Thank you!

02-10-2000, 12:47 PM
Sifu Albright,

Hello and greetings once again. I have always been curious about the different lineages of preying mantis, especially those from Ching Wu and from Taiwan. I was wondering if you yourself have seen any difference between Chiu Chi Man mantis and Sifu Su Yu Chang's?

02-10-2000, 07:44 PM
Likuei, I'll check into the double axe info.
Since Master Su teaches more than one style of mantis his number of seven star forms has been determined by his own curriculum. But in the seven star forms that I have seen him do there are a number of differences in the way that he does them and the way that we do them. The flavor and tempo is different. The way he holds the mantis claw is different. In the ending movements of Bong Bo he uses the inverted backfist in a reverse bow and arrow stance, while we use inverted eagle claw strikes. Plus other little things.
I find the differences interesting and use them to gain a greater perspective of the scope of the mantis style.


02-18-2000, 01:47 AM
I study 7 Star Preying Mantis in Austin, Texas.
I thought your name sounded familiar, Sifu Albright, so I checked out your page. I was astonished to find a picture of my sifu, Jeff Hughes, and my sigung, Ray
Fogg, in gallery B! Please excuse my ignorance, by not knowing the title in the lineage that describes my relation to you; but I just think it's amazing what can happen when you're bored at work and surfing on the net.
I've been in kung fu since I was 17, off and on. I used to live on a military base in Okinawa; where I studied wu shu standard Yang style Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Gre
en Dragon (5 animal), Bamboo Grove mantis, and smidgeons of Tibetian White Crane, Hung Gar, and Choy Lay fut- I know that sounds incredible, but my sifu was in the Air Force and moved around a lot. The main styles of the class were Green Dragon (5-animal) and Tai Chi, though I immediately fell in love with the mantis and hsing yi. I was only able to train for a couple years, before going to college. At college I let my health go, I gained a lot of weight (upwards of 60 pounds) and picked up smoking & drinking. In August 1998 I came down to Austin to become a co-op student for IBM. I met Sifu Hughes at this time. He helped me get back in shape, somewhat, and I was really getting into class. Sadly, I had to go back to school in January, 99, I went back to my old bad habits: put on another 25 pounds, smoked to the point of bronchitis- a result of which I now have serious asthma, and basically losing faith in myself. i came back to Austin last summer. It wasn't until October that I drug myself back to class. I was doing fine until Thangksgiving, when I got sick and took a month and a half off, and am now finally getting back into training full time. I have a demonstration coming up soon for sifu Fogg and I'm actually scared that I might embarass myself. Quitting smoking has not come easy (at my worste, I smoke on the weekends, at my best, I can go up to 6 weeks without). My asthma and my added weight have severely affected my class performance.

Sorry for the lengthy intro; but finally, here is my question:
Do you have any recommendations to help me lose some weight, gain my wind back, regain my flexibility, and stances in time for my April 8th demonstration?
I've been attending every class offered, I've started practising late at night, by myself in the park, I've been swimming on a swimteam somewhat regularly, and
I've been looking to change my diet (but not sure how). What else should I do? Is there any way you can help?

Thank you, any help you could offer would be GREATLY appreciated,

02-18-2000, 02:43 AM
Greetings Eric,
It's good to see that you have had such a diverse martial art background. I'm sure it all helps tha mantis practice in the end. As far as getting back up to speed, continue training every chance you get. In addition, try some deep breathing exercises. If you don't know any, just simple deep breathing inhaling while raising the arms overhead and exhaling while slowly lowering the arms to the side. I know it's simple but you do need to take the time out to do some type of deep breathing. Later, a mantis teacher can show you some of the 18 Lo Han form which is an internal form of mantis. The main thing about a diet is take it slow. Crashing out is bad for your health and only leads to a return to the original eating habits and sometimes you end up eating more than in the first place. Eat more green veggies and less meat. You can still eat what you want basicly but start cutting back on intake. And REALLY try to cut out snacks at night and eating between meals. Eat a little less at first then a little less than that and so forth. With exercise and cutting back on eating along with eating more green veggies you should see some improvement in a few weeks. Also the docotors say that the best time to work out is before your first meal. That way you burn more fat.


02-20-2000, 06:58 PM
I'm working on the diet already- I went out and got a bunch of fruit&vegetables. I'm cutting out basically all meats except tuna, eggs, and maybe chicken. I've also decided to replace sodas with sugar-free lemon tea.
Normally I go swimming at 5:30 every morning, but last week I was sick. It's been really hard to wake up early, because I've been going to the park late at night to practise by myself.
I'll do the Bai Fu Sau that we do in class, as well as seated meditation; plus I think I'm going to try some of the tai chi breathing exercises that I haven't done in 4 years or so.
Thanks for your help, I'll let you know how it goes,

PS. I'm to be performing Sup Sei Lo

03-12-2000, 07:14 AM
Hello again,

I will be updating my web page next week. If you have anything you would like to see, now is your chance. Suggestions will be taken under consideration. I would like to start teaching a form as the lesson of the month. A few moves fully described each month. I haven't decided which form yet. I am looking into getting some AVI on the page so you can see movements in action.

Thanks for your support and if anyone gets to New York, drop me a line. Visitors are always welcome. I am moving to a new location in a few weeks. Much bigger and nicer. Check the page for the new address/phone etc.

Sifu Carl

03-12-2000, 12:03 PM
I loved your two man with applications. Nice job on that. As for myself I just started taking some PM lessons but my class meets only once a week, which is not enough for me..especially since I need to practice things many times to remember them and I forget them when I get home. I would love to see some basics; stances, hand forms, stuff like that. The stances in PM are quite different from my previous MA experience and I prefer to practice them right the first time!

Thanks for putting up your site! It's my favorite PM one.


03-13-2000, 08:18 AM
Thanks for your input. I was thinking of putting up a page on general info about the style (stance, basic tech etc). You have confirmed that there would be an interest in this. I am working on the history section at the moment because I never finished it. I talk about the Sil Lum but not the history of mantis after Sil Lum to Lo San. The history section will clear up any questions on the lineage on the Chiu Chi Man / Chiu Leun side.

Sifu Carl

03-29-2000, 07:02 PM
Greetings to everyone,

I will soon be updating the site. If you sign in the guestbook once when you visit, you will be notified when new updates occur. Make sure you leave an email address for contact. Also there will be a free raffle to guestbook users comming up soon. The names will be dropped in a hat and a winner picked out at random. There will be a page set up to show prizes and report winners.

Note to Li kuei, I have no email address for you. Leave one on the site or email me at
about the double axe book.

Sifu Carl

07-29-2000, 11:01 AM
Hello Sifu Albright,

I'm new to this forum and I just checked out your excellent website. Very informative with very cool pics!!! I noticed the pic of Chiu Leun which brought back a flood of memories. Hence, my post.

Many years ago I trained in the Northern 7-Star Praying Mantis system under an excellent teacher and fighter (the best kung fu fighter I've ever seen) in NYC, who also happened to have studied under Master Chiu Leun. His name is Sifu Raymond Nelson and he had a Mantis school in the Bronx.

Coincidentally, I happened to bump into a very old friend in Manhattan several weeks ago who had also trained in Raymond's school during the time that I had. After much reminscing, we got to talking and inquiring about Sifu Nelson. We haven't heard about him in ages.

This is a shot in the dark, but it's very likely that you may have known and trained with him at Master Leun's school when it was on Mott Street. I was wondering if you were acquainted with Sifu Nelson and if so, if you heard or know of anything about him? I have tried searching on the web but to no avail.

Anyways, thank you in advance for your time, patience and many insights that you have posted on this forum.



07-29-2000, 08:51 PM

Yes, I have known Raymond Nelson for many years. He use to be my constant sparring partner at the old school because he never got tired of fighting. He has stopped teaching because of illness. I don't really have the particulars, but I believe it is life threatening. Maybe connected to something in Nam or something. You can email me at

and I will update you on his status as I learn more about it.

Sifu Carl

08-01-2000, 08:47 PM
Hello, Sifu Albright! I consider it a real pleasure to talk to you. I just want to know, after doing hard traing in a twoman brass ring fightin set, do you need to apply dit da jow on your arms after doing them? If so, would dit da jow be enough to heal the damage? If not, what else would you use? Would Tylenol or ibuprofen help? I do not mean to annoy you here. I am just looking out for the safety of my well-being, as well as some peace of mind.

08-02-2000, 04:21 AM

Whenever you train any ANY method that involves the brusing/banging/beating of the body, you should always compliment this type of training with some sort of jow. The different types that are available stagger the mind. Every school has their specific formula and there is a lot available commercially.

The "Rings" have their own special problem.They not only bruise but they pinch the skin as well. The rings also bang against the back of the wrist causing damage to the more delicate bones where the wrist joins the hand. Dit da jow should definately be used. I recommend two types. First any of the commercially available wine based jows will be good enough for the general training. But at least 4 times a month you ned to use a type of ointment that contains camphor such as Kwong Lop Gong or even Ben Gay in a pinch.
This type of medicine is specific to the bones in and around the joint area of the wrist. And should also be used at the elbow area. Even though the elbow isn't being struck, the joint is being shocked from the jerk of the rings as they slide forward and stop suddenly at the wrist so be sure not to overlook this.

When you apply jow to the arms or other parts of the body, be sure to rub the jow in using the knuckles. This stimulates points alond the meridians and ensures that the jow goes into the intended area and is not soaked up by the palms. Of course when training the palms, soak away.

As far as the use of Tylenol or asprin, I condone the taking of asprin (if your stomach can take it) or Tylenol before each class or training session. This reduces stress on the body and infact many doctors encourage taking aspirin or Tylenol once a day to reduce the chance of heart attack as well as other ailments. In addition your pain threshold will be raised and you can train harder and more comfortably.

When my sifu comes back fom China, we will have at least 4 types of training medications that he will prepare. They will be offered in the 4 sale part of our web site. This will be a couple of months away I estimate.

Sifu Carl

08-02-2000, 08:39 PM
When you say use Ben Gay in a pinch, what is a pinch?

08-02-2000, 09:59 PM

It means if you can't do any better. You need medicine in the joint area while training. So if you can't find the Lop Kwong oil or the like, use Ben Gay or liquid heat. The camphor in the medication is what is important.

Sifu Carl

08-03-2000, 03:03 AM
Sifu Albright,

You said that you condone taking a Tylenol or aspirin to increase the threshold of pain and reduce stress on the body. I am wondering about the logic behind that statement. Pain is an alarm system that somthing in our body is wrong. If you increase the threshold of pain, damage may still be done to the body, in fact more damage may be done to the body before you feel it. You can push yourself harder, but just because you don't feel the pain, doesn't mean nothing is wrong. And if you can do more damage while not feeling it, then how does that reduce stress on the body? I think analgesics have their place, but when training, they can cloud the mind and dampen reflexes. No disrespect is intended, I am just wondering.

In all situations
be aware, be mindful, and be
Wandering aimlessly invites attack.
But if one is attacked,
retreat three times
before retaliating.

mantis boxer
08-03-2000, 03:56 AM

If I send you a blank tape can you record yourself doing a few forms for me? And some technique as well?

08-03-2000, 09:35 AM
Iron Monkey,
It is OK that you question things. This is the way we learn. I feel no disrespect by it. Nor is it disrespectful to disagree with someone.

As to your questions about asprin, I take asprin before training and have done so for the last 8 years. I don't know what type of asprin you have taken that "clouds the mind" but I have never had it happen to me nor my students, nor anyone I have suggested the idea to. I am speaking from experience not pipe dreams. And as I have mentioned before, many doctors are now advocating this for everyday stress. This is also becoming used with more frequency in other sports related activities from weight lifting to track. As well as treatment for some types of heart conditions.

As for the body being able to percieve pain, take an asprin and in a short while pinch yourself and I am positive you will feel it. The pain threshold is raised but not by much. You will still feel everything you felt before the asprin. But the ability to handle the pain will be under slightly more control.
The main point of taking the asprin is really for the stress involved in training. The jolting of the body, stomping of the feet, shouting sounds, listing to the yelling out of instructions by the instructor etc. Some people cannot take asprin so Tylenol is the next thing I would recommend. But it is important to remember not to overdo it. Only once a day for training purposes. Again it is only a recomendation, not a requirment. I don't MAKE anyone take asprin at the school. I discuss with them, as I am doing here and let each person decide what is best for themselves. Again I reiterate, question everything. Too many people are out there underqualified to teach are misrepresenting themselves and their teaching. I always welcome the opportunity to explain anything that is not clear.

Mantis Boxer,

I am thinking about putting together a short demo tape of some of my material. Anyone interested? email me privately. The cost would be $16.00 plus postage.

Sifu Carl

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 08-04-2000).]

08-03-2000, 08:25 PM
Sifu Albright, I do not mean to be a pain, but I just wood like a Sifu's point of view on this. What is the proper way to use a praying mantis wooden dummy?

08-03-2000, 08:27 PM
Also, where can I buy Kwong lop Gong? Do you sell it? how much does it cost? Where is the address of your school?

08-04-2000, 06:16 AM
The address of the school is on the website
www.7starmantis.com (http://www.7starmantis.com)
190 4th Ave. Bklyn NY 11217

This is a new school that I just moved into with a partner that teaches Jujitsu among other things. Starting Septemper we will have the school hours posted for my clases. Right now I am having class on Thursday nights at 8:00 throughout the rest of the summer.

I think that you are wandra in my guestbook so I didn't answer the question there as I answered it here.

If you don't live in NY I'll see how much it will be to order it from me.I'll check the price in Chinatown next week.
As for the wooden dummy, the "proper " way to use the dummy varies from style to style. There is no basic agreement on how to practice.So any way you practice it will be right according to some school or another.

We advocate using the dummy to learn angular movements and not to crash into the dummy with your arms but to bump or bounce the arms against the dummy arms. We have our own set of practice movements with the dummy as does many other styles. See Lee Kam Wing's book "Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu" writen by Leung Ting for examples of mantis techniques used on the wooden dummy.

Sifu Carl

08-06-2000, 09:14 PM
Thanks, sifu albright. I think it probably be better for me to wait until a find a sifu before I do any training with brass rings or wooden dummies. Still, I would like to know the price of the Kwan Lop Gong, just for my future refernce so that when I am ready for the training, I will know how much money that I will need for it. Peace, and God Bless.

08-06-2000, 09:58 PM

08-07-2000, 07:57 AM
Wandra asked about the rings and kung fu cat1 asked about the wooden dummy. same questions as you and in the same manner.

Sifu Carl

08-07-2000, 09:48 PM
Sifu Albright,
Wandra is a friend of mine, who is also interested in kung fu, though I was unaware that he emailed you. We are both looking for a sifu right now, and we have many of the same concerns about the safety of body conditioning methods. Sorry about the confusion. Peace, and God Bless. Today, I just entered your guestbook to ask a few more questions about kwon lop Gong. My email address is curiousform@hotmail.com.

08-07-2000, 10:02 PM
Sifu Albright,
I am so sorry if you feel that i am playing games with you here. It is really bothering me now. I have the utmost respect for you, and i really aprreciate all the help the you have given me. If you are still mad at me, then I feel like a have just lost a good friend. Peace, and God Bless.

08-07-2000, 11:58 PM
Sifu Albright,
I really like to be liked. I hate to make any enemies. I do not see any reason why we cannot bury the hatchet here and still be friends. I really would like to do business with you once I am ready for the training that requires the kwong lop gong. Maybe I do ponder too much, but I am just concerned about the safety of my well-being. Peace, and God Bless.

08-08-2000, 08:06 AM

I was not insinuating anything.If you don't ask questions you don't learn anything. It was only a comment that since the questions were answered on this fourm there was no need to answer it again on the guestbook. There is no problem between you and I. Go back to the first post in this thread.I still stand by it.

Sifu Carl

08-08-2000, 09:41 PM
Sifu Albright,
You are a godsend! Peace, and God Bless.

08-24-2000, 05:49 PM
Greetings Sifu Carl Albright,
I am a new student of the Wah Lum Temple in Orlando, Florida. What do you know of its training and style? I'm new at learning the mantis style - coming from a 5 animal style (tiger) its actually kind of a major transition from non traditional to traditional. I was in awe when I went to the 2000 tournament here in Orlando. I would appreciate your thoughts and anyone elses.

08-24-2000, 08:02 PM
I think one thing you'll notice about the
Wah Lum style is it's basics. A lot of
people look past the basics. I would
recommend strongly to focus on in training
the basics. From Iron Bridge to side to
sides to straight kicks.. etc. I knew a guy
who could do Iron Bridge for 10 minutes.
This is the core of your Wah Lum training.
When you learn a form take it apart and find
an area your weak on. Extract that part and
make a line exercise of it (doing the left
and right side of the exercise in a line)
until your better at it. Keep a list of
these exercises for your future reference.
One exercise I used to like is standing Golden Chicken for a period of time. This
really helps your balance. After you can do
it on a flat surface, try it on a short
pole. Try it on a red brick. Anyway, I
think you get the idea. Don't get caught up
in wanting more and more forms too much
unless you're really strong in basics. How
about Tam Tui leg lifts? There is so much
just in the basics that you could train for
years before even learning a form. When you
learn a form, do it over and over until you
get it. Then try to do it on the left side,
the mirror opposite of the way you learned.
This will make you think more about the

Basics, Basics, Basics.....

Also, you might try writing your forms out.
This will also make you think about the

Wah Lum has some great stuff... enjoy.

Hope this helps.

Hua Lin Laoshi
08-25-2000, 01:18 AM
I second your comments about basics. Too often I see students in a hurry to learn the next move or next form without perfecting the basics. They struggle with the form wondering why they're having trouble.

All the Wah Lum exercises and forms are laid out so as to prepare you for what comes next. Master Chan has spent a lot of years refining the curriculum to make it a natural progression through the different levels.

What the student needs to remember is that learning the sequence of moves in a form is just the beginning. When you finish learning the moves you don't go on to the next form. Instead, you take the time to perfect and understand the form. When you've reached a satisfactory level of proficiency you're ready for the next challenge.

08-25-2000, 03:59 AM
One other thing I might suggest for serious
students and this goes for outside Wah Lum
as well as inside and that is pick a Gung
for yourself and practice that. That is,
find your strong point whether it be upper
body or lower body and train that every
day. When I trained with a Vietnamese
gentleman he told me stories of how he, his
friend, and other trained in Vietnam (he is
now in his 60's). One method which stuck in
my mind was his friend had in his back yard
a large tree trunk. Every day he would get
into a low horse stance up close to the tree
trunk and with both open palms, push it
forward. Then he'd repeat this until he
pushed the tree trunk across his yard. Then
he'd turn around and push it back. He did
this every day for years. One day my
teacher and his friend were confronted
by two attackers. In a moment my teacher's
friend stepped forward and pressed his open
palms into the chests of the two attackers
and sent them flying leaving each with a palm
print on their chests. At that the fight was
over and my teacher and his friend went on
their way. Take the story for what it's
worth but it does illustrate what daily
training in a gung can do. I've always
considered my leg strength stronger than my
upper body. One gung I've thought up for
myself was to take a old tire and basicly do
the same thing as above. That is, get into
a low squat with my feet together close to
the tire and kick the tire with a side kick
remaining as low as I could but not sitting
on my squat, then repeat.
There is a basic movement in Wah Lum like
this but the tire would add resistance and
a greater workout. This would be done of
course after the same movements without the
tire can be done well.

After practice I might suggest a sitting
meditation to collect back to the center.
I've found this very beneficial.

08-28-2000, 02:29 AM
I agree.... I used to prcatice doing the Golden Cheicken Stance balancing a glass of water on my knee. This was to help me with balance while practicing my 8 point blocking system from 5 animal style. I am very pleased with the Wah Lum Temple. I believe that instead of everyone bashing each others styles that they should practice on bettering what they know. I dont believe any style is better than the other..... it depends upon the student who can develop the style to make it work better. I was told before the Wah Lum Temple, that the monks used to only learn 1 strike a year. This was for them to better this strike or block. To me this is what makes your style better. I hope everyone understands, you have to remember no matter how good you are there is always some one better. But to better yourself makes everyone better. Like you might have noticed Im new here on this forum and the temple, but I have seen alot of things in training.

Enjoy everyone and enjoy life.


08-28-2000, 02:50 AM
Im studying Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu, and i was told that after i learned the base of Kung Fu itself ,, and begin to learn the forms of Mantis Kung Fu,, that i would accually b able to learn Tiger Claw, Eagle Claw,, and other animal forms from instrucional videos, considering i cannot learn any of them because Mantis Kung Fu is all that is offered in my area,, dont get me wrong, i love mantis kunf fu, probobly the most, but i would like to learn many forms of kung fu,, especially Drunkin Monkey.
Just wondering if learning from videos would just b a waste of time /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Spaz (edited 08-28-2000).]

08-28-2000, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thrullas:
I am very pleased with the Wah Lum Temple. I believe that instead of everyone bashing each others styles that they should practice on bettering what they know. I dont believe any style is better than the other..... it depends upon the student who can develop the style to make it work better.

There is a LOAD of great stuff at Wah Lum.
My only advice to anyone there would be to
put on your plate only what your sure you can
eat. That is, it's easy to get caught up in
the seminars, cruises, trips to China, etc.
It's very easy to get sidetracked and spread
yourself thin. Then your doing so much stuff
you forget what you learned on that seminar,
cruise, etc. I suggest that you go slow,
learn well and move on to the next exercise.
If your a dedicated student I would even
strongly suggest private lessons. If you
know how to practice on your own this is a
good way to go. It keeps your training
focused because of a lack of distractions.

I'm speaking from experience and offer only
to help, not bash.

Hope this helps,
William Oliveri

08-29-2000, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woliveri:
There is a LOAD of great stuff at Wah Lum.
My only advice to anyone there would be to
put on your plate only what your sure you can
eat. That is, it's easy to get caught up in
the seminars, cruises, trips to China, etc.
It's very easy to get sidetracked and spread
yourself thin. Then your doing so much stuff
you forget what you learned on that seminar,
cruise, etc. I suggest that you go slow,
learn well and move on to the next exercise.
If your a dedicated student I would even
strongly suggest private lessons. If you
know how to practice on your own this is a
good way to go. It keeps your training
focused because of a lack of distractions.

I'm speaking from experience and offer only
to help, not bash.

Hope this helps,
William Oliveri

Sorry woliveri,
I didnt believe you was bashing ... im just tired of seeing on this and other forums arguing who style is better. I agree with you 100 %. Thanks for your input.


09-03-2000, 05:12 AM
Hey sifu Albright!
Just checking in to let you know that I'm still alive.
Made the dreaded move back up to school 2 weeks ago. Time to see if all that preparation for coming back here will pay off. Getting a deal from the phone company that I can have unlimited minutes in Texas for a flat rate. I should be on the phone with my sifu at least once a week, and my classmates moreso.
Hoping to go back to Austin to train in late september, but my loan payments haven't come through, and I can't even pay the bills.
I bought 2 of the Lee Kam Wing books, and a lot of philosophy books as well. I set up that shrine too. Got any advice for staying motivated, being able to find time, and any tips on practising when stuck so far away from the kwoon?

After reading the WHF kicks thread, sounds like you got a lot going on, I'm totally envious. hehehe /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Take care