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Golden Child
03-14-2000, 11:21 PM
What Up, Sifu Albright? I am currently learning Northern Mantis/Baji/Bagua/Tai-Chi under the WU TANG lineage and I have been training in these styles for about eight months. I've previously trained in Tae Kwon Do, JKD (little), Boxing and Kenpo. I realize that it is premature to ask this question but I was wondering if you have any tips on how to transition from forms to application to spontaneous setting(ie sparring)? I've noticed over the years that regardless of what style many martial artists revert to or use the kick-box approach in spontaneous settings. I'm having a rough/frustrating time addding the Northern Kung Fu flava and removing my current kick-boxing style. I would greatly appreciate any input you may have. I would also like to add that I really enjoy your website. It is nice to see a website that actually addresses technique and theory.

Same flava different day. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LawClansman
03-15-2000, 01:44 AM
G.C.,

The easiest way to make the transition is to pick out 10 moves/techniques that you like from your traditional system. Then practice them as a drill with a partner. Not only standing still but moving around as well. When you spar, you will be more comfortable using these techniques. When you start having confidance in the traditional movements, you will start adding more and more to your sparring sessions. It is not going to happen overnight but it will come.

Another tip is to fight with your right side foward. Most kickboxers fight with their left side forward or both hands somewhat centered near each other. If you are not a southpaw this will be true for you. Using the right side forward will help you to disassociate the kickboxing movements when fighting. In other words with the left hand leading you think kickboxing, with the right hand leading you think Kung fu.

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Sifu Carl

03-15-2000, 05:00 AM
That sounds like a good way to do train in those kungfu moves. Golden Child, when do you get a chance to spar? I've never seen that at the school. Of course I've only been to two PM classes (sat).

baji-fist
03-15-2000, 05:54 AM
Hello Sifu Carl,

Thank you for the advice; actually Golden Child is my kung fu bro at Wutang. For the last 5 months I have been researching and digging deeper for it's applications. For a long time, I really didn't appreciate the Bung Bu form, but now it is my favorite one. I never realized that there were so many applications from this form. My sifu helped me to find some of these applications while I was preparing for a Wutang tournament. I am currently still trying to obtain some of the mantis flavor and baji flavor before I leave. I have around 10 movements in mind already from Bung Bu that I will be working on with Golden Child. Hopefully the both of us, along with my other kung fu bro, Krispy Jing, will develop our fighting skills further. Thank you again for the advice.

baji-fist
03-15-2000, 06:00 AM
Shiroikuma,

We spar when we have the chance to. Right now I am still in the process of finding some applictions to work on. But I couldn't help sense a sarcastic tone to your last reply. If you have a problem with us and our method of training, why don't you come to Wutang and try it out. We can't judge a method of training until we actually try it...am I right? Try our classout, and you will realize why we do things the way we do. Also remember this when you train, "One must eat bitter before you taste sweet." Think about that and then we will talk.

03-15-2000, 10:57 AM
Jeeze! don't be so touchy! I just said i hadn't seen much (any) sparing in your school. As I said I have attended only two PM lessons as a student, not just watching as I did the other two times. I really like it so far it's quite interesting. I didn't know if I'd get a chance to talk to golden child in class on sat again so I asked him here as I didn't want to wait for a couple of weeks for an answer.

The sparing question is moot for me anyway as I don't have really any PM experience so I'd be "kickboxing" anyway LOL!

Ahh I wish I could afford to go to the weeknight classes then you could tell me off in person... LOL

Go Mantis Go!

shiro

Golden Child
03-15-2000, 11:16 PM
Hey Sifu Albright! I sincerely appreciate your tips on transition mode it sounds like very logical approach. I don't know why I didn't figure it out. I guess partly because it's difficult to start all over again and occassionally, I guess I can't see the forest because of the trees. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Shiro, please don't take offense to our brother Baji-fist. It sounds as if he may have been having a bad day. However, your correct we don't spar in class. Sifu does show us applications, some of the other students and I, take them back to the lab and experiment with the lessons. In traditional CMA as well as other styles, it is incumbent upon the student to take initiative to explore usage and technique on his own.

I sincerely hope I see you in class this weekend so that we can talk more.

Much Love, and thanks again Sifu Albright!

03-16-2000, 12:21 AM
thanks GC! see you then.

shiro

Lost_Disciple
03-16-2000, 12:30 AM
I was reading the posts on this thread; and I was reminded of something we were talking about on another thread about "visualization". So here's my two cents:

I was talking to Guy, the highest ranking student in my kung fu class, one day and asked him pretty much the same question. Actually I was asking him, "...even though we know the techniques and the applications, how do we train the techniques to go fast & strong enough for sparring?". I assume most kung fu practisioners that revert to "kickboxing" when they spar, do so because they have no clue how to apply their techniques at the required speed with enough force, whether they know the application or not. Guy's advice was very similar to Sifu Albright's; but he also added something:
"Seriously keep in mind the applications of the techniques when you are doing your forms".
I had always thought that I was doing this before, but the way he put it made me realize that I wasn't. I was doing little more than giving a nickname to a technique. I wasn't really imagining doing each technique with the speed of applying it on an opponent or doing it with the power I generated when working on a bag. On the other thread about visualization, they said that pro basketball players who only visualized taking free throws for 2 weeks improved greatly over basketball players who actually shot free throws for a period of 2 weeks. I've since taken my techniques and applied them to the free-standing, water-filled BOB bag that I have at home. I started realizing the mechanics of where and how the power was supposed to be generated- how to time my hips twisting with my fist. I started doing my forms with the lessons I learned from my bags, I also started envisioning previous sparring sessions and my opponent's punches, along with the feeling of having to react- the feeling of urgency to build up my speed & my control while moving fast. My forms really started looking a lot better. I haven't had the chance to see how much this new mental attitude in my training has improved my sparring yet; but I will soon. I'll repost here if nothing's changed, or if I've gotten worse, but I just have a feeling I'm doing things more correctly. My main goal right now is to remember& learn how to do every technique in all of my forms with this same theory/attitude- luckily I don't know too many forms. hehehe

Krispy Jing
03-16-2000, 01:10 AM
Shiro,

Unfortunately, I find myself in the awkward position of having to apologize for the last message posted by Baji Fist. I don't want you to get the impression that we're a bunch a knuckleheads. I've seen you in the Saturday class and I'm happy you've joined you looked like you were applying yourself and enjoying yourself as well. I consider you my kung fu brother as well and I hope you realize the attitude in Baji's post is not the prevailing one at the school. I'm sure he will make things right, he's a good guy behind the bluster.

As far as sparring, like Golden Child said we don't really spar in class. In fact my hardest work outs are not usally in class although since we've started Baji...

Anyway, Golden Child and myself have been meeting one day a week outside of class and working on basics, applications and sparring. We'd be happy to have you join us. We usually train at Ft Rich or in my basement. Every once in a while we'll train at the school (I have a key). The day varies but it's either Monday, Tuesday or Thursday. Call me at 727-0624 so I can let you know what's up.

Sifu Albright, great advice on sparring. That's the path we were starting to tiptoe down anyway. I don't know if I can mess with 10 techniques yet. I think I'll start with 3 and work my way up from there. We'll let you know you it goes. Thanks again.

Lost disciple, I used to do that visualisation thing with Karate all the time. I'm having a problem doing it with some of the movements in Kung Fu though. The movements sifu breaks down for us and shows the applications are easy to visualize but with some of the others I'm not sure how they're applied.

Peace
Krispy Jing

Lost_Disciple
03-16-2000, 01:41 AM
As far as finding applications in forms; one thing the sifu I had in high school did was let us have some freedom.
Basically, he'd show us one application from a movement from a form. We'd practise that 5 to 10 times on each side, then we'd have to find one other way to apply it 5 or 10 times from each side.
The partner would let us know how open we were when we came in with the technique, or whether it seemed to be at all effective. It's not a perfect way to do it, especially if you're both beginners; but it gets you thinking, so you don't always need to be told what something does.
I'd recommend taking some of those movements out of the forms that you don't know and trying them on one another, SLOWLY. You could have one person be a "training dummy" and feed you a particular punch, kick, or combination, and you see if you can slowly react to it.
Every move has multiple applications.

Golden Child
03-16-2000, 02:06 AM
Great advice Lost Disciple, however like Krispy said visualization can be difficult with some of the more complicated techniques. Also, I was a little hestitant about using the visualization thing because I didn't want my mind to get locked into specfic application per technique but at this point I'm willing to give it a try. Plus like you mentioned, I'm sure it will definitely put more passion into my forms training. Thanks again and I appreciated everyone's input.

Much Love,

baji-fist
03-17-2000, 03:16 AM
Shiro,

I am sorry for the last post I made, I didn't realized that you joined the class. There are times when I do misinterpret stuff peeps say (just ask Krispy...hehehe). But yeah, like Krispy said, I am not a bad guy, I just have to much pride, especially when it comes to the school. It is good that you are enjoying the class, I can say for a fact that it changed my views on wushu. I hope we can put all the past behind us and work towards a common goal, to perfect our wushu. I also hope that you may also join us in our training outside of the school, and if I do see you there, I will greet you as my kung fu brother and nothing less. Sorry again and keep up with the training.


Baji-Fist

Lost_Disciple
03-19-2000, 06:32 PM
Golden Child:
If you're worried about getting locked into one application, then try to picture different scenarios that you react to everytime you do the form. I think the point is more to get into the "reactionary mode" where you're thinking less about what you're ding, and a bit more about what your opponent's going to do next.
I haven't even come close to mastering visualization; nor am I even implementing it everytime I do forms, but that is my goal.

Qi Xing Tong Long
04-13-2000, 08:38 PM
Hello to all, the best way that I have found for myself has been to break down the techniques of your forms and do two men training drills from each set of a form. But you must be set in a combat frame of mind. Have your partner actually attack and actually counter attack.

Remember this, that in a kickboxing mode you are in a long range position. It only works well as long as you keep your opponent at a distance. Now what your opponent needs to do is close that gap between him and his long range opponent. Once he has closed that gap the long range fighter has no chance of defense (unless he knows how to use his hands).

In PM you want to be able to grab your opponent and the only way to grab a person is by getting close to them. So if you want to hit your opponent with a back hand feeler strike, then you need to shuffle forward grab with your left hand and strike with your lead right hand as you pluck him in.

By doing the action you have closed the gap between you and your opponent, now if he want to defend himself he will need to counter with a traditional PM tech. because the bob & weave move don't work in this case.

So, you have eniciated an "ACTION" now your opponent must counter with a "REACTION". The forms that you learn in your art are the techniques that you must use in order to understand and learn the essence of the art itself. Because learning PM and then fighting and looking like a tiger contradicts what we are learning, don't you think?...so with that in mind, by taken the sets in your forms and really working it, trying to really hit each other with out hurting each other. This will force each other to concentrate on your tech. and it will develope a true sense of security, because now you know that you can apply the techs. in your art.

Don't get me wrong kickboxing is great I train it myself, but traditional PM is even BETTER when you know how to use it. Anyone who has just started training in PM, please don't give up, give it time to brew and you will witness the results.

Peace

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Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy