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brucelee2
01-26-2002, 03:56 PM
Anyone here practice this? What kinds of results have you had?

Wong Ying Home
01-26-2002, 04:12 PM
I was taught two methods
Martial , this strengthens the body, will aid in developing intercostal and muscle connective strength, build Chi and circulate well

Health method, is just mainly for chi and circulation.

Done with martial approach should take about 45 mins and you know you have worked hard.

Health method about 30 mins.

dre_doggX
03-22-2002, 07:13 AM
what can you gain, can this strengthing muscle of internal qi.

dfedorko@mindspring.com
03-22-2002, 08:46 AM
I have been doing 8 Pieces of Brocade the last two months and I don't see any Qi building. I have read that 8 Pieces of Brocade were, primarily warm-up exercises and that is why I do them. These exercises go back to the Chinese warlords who made sure their troops were in shape for battle. Similar to the Army Conditioning Drill exercises.

Damian

dwid
03-22-2002, 09:17 AM
8 pieces of brocade is probably the lowest impact qi gong set I've ever been exposed to. I wouldn't consider it the kind of qi builder that some of the other sets are.

However, I find it very beneficial. Months ago, when I was virtually bedridden, recovering from surgery for about a month, the only exercise I was really able to do was 8 pieces of brocade and some shallow standing post. I think these aided my recovery significantly, as I was healing about twice as fast as I had previously healed from a similar surgery, and my energy level was much higher, and my muscles didn't atrophy nearly as badly as I had expected from past experience.

Also, 8 pieces of brocade is very simple, and doesn't take the time a lot of qigong sets do, so a person like me with little spare time is more likely to do it.

Yes, there are vastly superior sets for making rapid gains, but it's a solid set unto itself.

illusionfist
03-22-2002, 11:55 AM
The ba duan jin is a great exercise for clearing out the san jiao (triple burner) and also for clearing up the three blockages on the Du meridian. I would say that this particular exercise isn't really meant for chi cultivation as such. It seems to work more as a tonifying exercise more than anything. The ba duan jin is considered a four step exercise, which is known to be one of the 72 arts.

Peace :D

crumble
03-22-2002, 02:14 PM
I can totally sympathize with what people are saying. Some versons of the 8 brocade techniques are really only good for a warm up. Heck, do a search for 8 brocades and you will see that some teachers offer versions that are done while sitting!

The chi kung/qi gong that will help internal development is that which trains the entire body to move together as a unit. The legs, torso, and arms will all move and stop at the same time. The individual movements are training whole body movement in different directions.

From what I can tell, there is nothing magical about chi kung. It just trains the core movements that are found in most techniques. And because you spend lots of time training these most simple movements, it make the learning of more complicated techniques much easier. It is foundation-building work.

I've done chi kung that was relaxing -- and relaxing is good -- but now I see that the chi kung teacher must be able to explain why the movement is usefull for fighting, otherwise it's a waist of time for someone who wants to truly be a martial artist.

Hmm, so to sum-up: there are "relaxation" versions of 8 brocades and there are "coordinated movement" versions of 8 brocades. Both can be described in terms of chi, so whether they are internal depends on your definition of internal and chi. But I say that only the coordinated, whole-body movement versions will improve your martial skills.

-crumble

GeneChing
03-22-2002, 03:54 PM
I covered the brocade by my Shaolin master Shi Decheng, check out our May June 2001 issue http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kunmag20mayi.html

Stacey
03-22-2002, 08:24 PM
can someone show me pics?


what are they?

dfedorko@mindspring.com
03-24-2002, 05:37 AM
According to Yang Jwing Ming, 8 Pieces of Brocade were created by Marshal Yue Fei to improve the health of his soldiers. Originally there were 12 Pieces of Brocade but after being passed down from generation to generation (over 800 years) they were edited down to 8. Yue Fei is also the Founder of Eagle Claw and Xingyi. Would you believe, Yang Jwing Ming refers to them as Qigong exercises. His book on Ba Duan Jin is very thorough.


Damian

Kevin Wallbridge
03-24-2002, 07:48 PM
While it is unlikely that Yue Fei actually created the baduanjin, it is a rather old set. Because it is so old there are a huge number of variations of the set (I know three). All of the ones that I know share common themes (pressing up, drawing the bow, etc.). The seated sets are old as well.

Some people treat it as a simple exercise set, opening and loosening the tissue, squatting down, and so on. However this is not the only level at which it is trained. One teacher told me it related to the Qijing Bamai, the eight unpaired meridians. In Chinese medical physiology the Qijing Bamai serve as reservoirs of Qi and help sustain the subtle functions of the organs.

Changes in the relative subtlety or grossness of the movement, the style or timing of the breath, or pace, all make great changes in the perceived effects of the set.

Repulsive Monkey
03-26-2002, 06:45 AM
Unfortunately I don't really rate Yang's Baduan Jin book that much, I personally feel that the only person's to do this practice any justice at all would have to be Staurt Alve Olsens book on the Eight Pieces Brocade. Good source material backed up with very good first hand commentaries. A more superior read.

PlasticSquirrel
03-26-2002, 07:11 PM
i wouldn't consider baduanjin to be simple or mild. at different levels it appears to do different things. you can get to the highest levels with baduanjin, and it would be a good set to work with in the long run.

at the beginning it may appear to be nothing, then mild, then potent, and then powerful.

as others mentioned, though, it emphasizes circulation and manipulation of qi rather than accumulation and concentration of it, although one side does leads to the other.

as for yue fei, shierduanjin and baduanjin are attributed to him, but so are many other things.

crumble
03-27-2002, 05:43 AM
I'm haven't found a website with pictures of 8 brocades yet. Anybody else have any luck? A while ago I did a search and found a site with line drawings (like those in your typical tai chi text) of both the normal standing and sitting versions.

Can anybody else find it?

-crumble

GeneChing
03-27-2002, 10:07 AM
Sorry, got to do that every once in a while. It's my job. Now back to our regular programming...:rolleyes:

dfedorko@mindspring.com
03-29-2002, 12:39 PM
And we are sorry because we are using this thread to help others know what Ba Duan Jin is all about. Thank you, Gene and Happy Easter to you.

Damian

Crushing Step
07-23-2003, 01:05 PM
Gene-

Nice plug, as always, for your back issues. I actually came across this old thread because I was wanting to learn about the 8 section brocade. After seeing your ad, I recognized the cover as an issue I already had! So to add my view on these exercises, so far it has done me good. They are simple, but a good foundation, I believe. I started using posture 1 in conjuntion with stationary postures as my tai chi warmup.

Now for my question. Are any of these tension movements? By the still pictures, the bow drawing and gaze while clenching the fist seem like strong postures.

Laughing Cow
07-23-2003, 01:32 PM
8 Brocade Pics (http://www.yamatanidojo.com/8_brocade.htm)

More 8 Brocade (http://members.tripod.com/~zenist/brocade.html)

Both links show pics of it as well as give instructions on how to perform it.

Link1 offers both standing and sitting version.

Hope this helps.

jun_erh
07-23-2003, 03:35 PM
I do mine while watching the oreilly factor and/or the red sox. It sometimes takes as long as an hour and a half. My only problem is I can't do the reaching the sky with my right arm because my shoulder is totally krunked up from a snowboarding injury that healed funny. I learned it from KFQ thing Gene xingy xing long keeps talking about, but my version is alot more like the 1st one laughing cow posted. Shi Decheng one is great, but I can't go down in those deep horse stances.

looking_up
07-24-2003, 12:53 PM
Serge Augier has video clips of the exercises.

www.whitecraneinstitute.com

Ma_Xu_Zha
07-25-2003, 07:32 AM
try this new version I learned of 8 piece brocade- link here:

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Shore/8797/8sectionqigong.html

Crushing Step
07-26-2003, 11:43 AM
Great replies...

Looking up, could you be specific what clip(s) I should be looking at?

Ma_Xu_Zha
07-28-2003, 10:23 AM
your links for 8 brocade are very similar to the set that i posted, but with some slight variation. great links!!

GeneChing
07-29-2003, 09:41 AM
Here is a Shaolin Poster version (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/8512.html) that we just got in stock.

Here is video version (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/prjt004.html ) that is quite martial. Low stances, tougher than most brocades. It also comes with an extra feature, as you'll see.




xingy xing long?

looking_up
07-29-2003, 09:42 AM
http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/videos/

Some 5 element qigong too.

jun_erh
07-29-2003, 10:34 AM
there's more to it than meets the eye I think.

Buddy
08-18-2003, 08:17 AM
Interesting, the Ba Duan Jin I learned from Luo Dexiu is quite profound. I have heard that this set was developed by the same man who developed the Complete Reality school of Daoism. We do similar movements as what I see here but somewhat more elaborate.
Buddy

GeneChing
08-20-2003, 09:29 AM
There's one title the Octupled brocade - I love that title - in the 5 volume Taguo set (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/bslx115.html), but it's quite an investment if that's the only form you want out of there.

SPJ
06-23-2006, 08:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJeyZ43i-xY&search=eight%20brocade

have fun.

:D

David Jamieson
06-23-2006, 08:30 AM
yet another version.

some elements same as what ive learned in two variations of that qigong.

SifuAbel
06-23-2006, 10:10 AM
yet another version.

some elements same as what ive learned in two variations of that qigong.

David beat me to it. We also do an 8 brocade set. Fundamentaly the same with a few variations of stance.

EarthDragon
06-23-2006, 11:48 AM
I have a very old video from our family and yes you guessed it! its different, I will someday get around to figure out how to post it from VHS

Royal Dragon
06-23-2006, 12:23 PM
It is also very similar to the one I know. I actually like the differences in this one, I may play with it next time I do the set.

Wong Ying Home
06-23-2006, 01:23 PM
Seems this is the soft health version and not the martial version, it's ok, but not the way I practice.

Royal Dragon
06-23-2006, 01:32 PM
I have never heard of a "Martial" version of this set. Aren't they all soft?

mantis108
06-23-2006, 01:53 PM
Here's an article of Praying Mantis' version of Ba Duan Jin from my site:

Tanglang Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa (http://www.mantisunlimited.com/Tanglang%20Ba%20Duan%20Jin%20Shen%20Fa.htm)

It's "martial" in nature and it has element of Mantis moves as well.

Mantis108

SifuAbel
06-23-2006, 03:35 PM
Seems this is the soft health version and not the martial version, it's ok, but not the way I practice.

I understand what you're getting at. This version seems to be easier. Less moves and less horse.

SPJ
06-23-2006, 07:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ0jui4-eW0

:)

Scott R. Brown
06-23-2006, 08:41 PM
I have a very old video from our family and yes you guessed it! its different, I will someday get around to figure out how to post it from VHS

Get Dr. Divx then hook up your vcr to your computer. Its prettey easy. Or if you would like send me a copy and I'll do it for you. I can do it in about an hour.

EarthDragon
06-24-2006, 07:28 AM
first off, OMG SPJ where did you find that vid? that has to be the most graceful and flexible man I have ever seen perfroming snake creeps down. wow spectacular!

Scott, I have many videos of my shifu over the years and would love to show them to the world so i will look into this dr divix, can this be purchased at say computer city? does it do DVD as well? thanks, I'm older and not very computer savvy to say the least, thanks for the help

Wong Ying Home
06-24-2006, 08:06 AM
The version I practice has both Yang and yin elements, the first half of ba duan jin has a lot of elements that train the tendons, and ribs (yang) and is similiar to yit gun ging, the second half is more yin by nature.

The first half has a lot of horse work and is hard work ...the whole set done correctly with all the 8 breathing patterns takes about 45mins.

I was taught the same set with a health focus, and it is much easier by far, more yin all the way through and focuses on nurturing the chi and breath.

Later this year I will be releasing an instructional dvd on Ba Duan Jin for martial arts

Scott R. Brown
06-24-2006, 08:25 AM
Scott, I have many videos of my shifu over the years and would love to show them to the world so i will look into this dr divix, can this be purchased at say computer city? does it do DVD as well? thanks, I'm older and not very computer savvy to say the least, thanks for the help

Hi EarthDragon,

You can get Dr. Divx 2 here:

http://community.divx.com/labs/viewEntry.php?id=27&cid=2

It is freeware I believe. I use the older version I paid for.

There is a bit of a learning curve and you will need to purchase some cables to connect your vcr to your computer. I have done about 6 vcr tapes and the quality is pretty good. It might just be easier for you to have someone do it for you. If you can get good copies of your tapes send them to me one at a time and I could do it for you. It is up to you. Once you know how to use Dr. Divx though it is pretty easy. For example I had trouble getting the sound to record so I had to run the the vcr stereo sound into a plug and then plug it into my computer sound cards mike jack to get the sound to record, but if you have time and patience you can figure it out. It is worth the effort in my opinion.

You cannot burn to DvD with it if that is what you mean. If you mean convert from DvD to another format then try:

DVD Ripper Platimum:

http://www.xilisoft.com/dvd-ripper-platinum.html

David Jamieson
06-24-2006, 08:30 AM
the first ba duan jin i learned had no ma bu. the shaolin one i learned later had lots of horses and shared ideas with the first such as heel drops, sealing, gathering, collecting and sinking, focus on hands and dantien, opening the guas and so on.

that second set is reminiscent of zhao bao taichi leg work. the deep tendon stretching is similar to a side to side exercise I've seen in shuai chiao. Not really snake creeps down per se though ED. Some same benefits to it though.

EarthDragon
06-24-2006, 05:05 PM
thanks scott, i think i will have my student look into this as he is a college student with al the gadgets, hell I am still using a sony walkman, cant figure out the I pod yet LOL but thank you for the help.

David excuse my ignorance i have never seen such an excersize for shuai chiao, and it looked like a tachi stretching one to me, but indeed sparked my interest. i watched it twice as i was amazed at how gracful he was and how flexible, there are times when he isnt even touching or resting on the ground. amazing

SPJ
06-25-2006, 07:46 AM
may be there is some kind of supporting prop behind his lower back?

:D

David Jamieson
06-25-2006, 08:28 AM
may be there is some kind of supporting prop behind his lower back?

:D

lol, nope, just lots of hard work and focused effort.

SPJ
06-25-2006, 08:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSZq78t4WMg&search=qi%20gong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pdoYpqCuY&search=qi%20gong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkgurUrGzzk&search=qi%20gong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR61leoSNE4&search=qi%20gong

here is another exercise.

:D

David Jamieson
06-25-2006, 09:01 AM
that was a good lesson on combining intention with the motion.

Egg fu young
08-14-2007, 12:35 PM
Anyone practice regularly? and have you seen any benifits? I'm debating focusing less on my 24 form (I've been doing it twice a day for 9 years) and more on Eight Section Brocade. Any thoughts.

dharmastudent
08-14-2007, 02:46 PM
I practice both the Eight Section Brocade and the Yang Short Form daily. However, I practice the Eight Section Brocade only once while I go over the form at least three times.

Have I seen any benefis? Honestly, I'm not really sure but I'm told that it builds up "protective chi" so why not practice it?

Egg fu young
08-14-2007, 03:21 PM
I practice both the Eight Section Brocade and the Yang Short Form daily. However, I practice the Eight Section Brocade only once while I go over the form at least three times.

Have I seen any benefis? Honestly, I'm not really sure but I'm told that it builds up "protective chi" so why not practice it?

I love my Tai Chi and will always practice it. But with everthing else in my schedule "Church, family, fitness and work) I have to spend my time wisely. I have no doubt my 24 form helps me but in order for me to begin more practice of something else like "Eight Section Brocade" It will have to be a sure bet like the 24form is for me.

chud
08-14-2007, 07:21 PM
I love my Tai Chi and will always practice it. But with everthing else in my schedule "Church, family, fitness and work) I have to spend my time wisely. I have no doubt my 24 form helps me but in order for me to begin more practice of something else like "Eight Section Brocade" It will have to be a sure bet like the 24form is for me.

It is a sure bet. Initially the only benefits from doing Ba Duan Jin (Pa Tuan Chin) will be how alert and 'alive' it makes you feel, but there are more benefits later on. Also it only takes a short time to do it, so it will not be a much of a burden to add it to your daily schedule. I usually do it once in the morning on the back porch before I leave for work. If you have five minutes (10 minutes, tops) you can handle it.

SPJ
08-15-2007, 12:02 AM
people practice 8 brocade for health since Song dynasty.

Shaolin monks also practice the set.

if you are in a hurry, then just pick one.

repeat 8 times and do it slowly and remember to inhale and exhale evenly.

I like the one that you open your arms on top of your head, --

It is to help to regulate the 3 burners or Li San Jiao.

I practice a mixed type.

I pick one set and just do that set for a month or so.

If you do the 8 postures x 8 times, it will take up a lot of time.

--

sanjuro_ronin
08-15-2007, 04:41 AM
Any video clip of this and what about the "eight immortals" ?

chud
08-15-2007, 06:50 AM
people practice 8 brocade for health since Song dynasty.

Shaolin monks also practice the set.


Like SPJ said, the eight pieces of brocade is probably the most popular chi kung set out there. There are many variants of it.


if you are in a hurry, then just pick one.

repeat 8 times and do it slowly and remember to inhale and exhale evenly.

I like the one that you open your arms on top of your head, --

It is to help to regulate the 3 burners or Li San Jiao.

I practice a mixed type.

I pick one set and just do that set for a month or so.

If you do the 8 postures x 8 times, it will take up a lot of time.

--

SPJ, those are interesting ideas. I usually do each piece 3 times, but your advice to just pick one if you're in a hurry is a good idea...some chi kung is better than none. It would also allow you to focus on one move for a while. Cool idea.

Eugene
03-13-2010, 10:32 AM
In the Qi Gong form, BaDuanJin, there is a posture, the second one :
left-right drawing bow as if shooting golden eagle ( I guess one has to shoot it from the sky, and aim high ?? )

Is see this alot performed in the high mabu stance, and the low warrior stance like Shi De Yang does it,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KSyLpRohSCk/SU3V1HHCZmI/AAAAAAAAAJk/iCYeb5m50FU/s200/zuoyoulagong.jpg
http://healthqigongusa.org/images/BaDuanJin00.jpg ( The Stance I see alot also from Baduanjin performences )

The effect is : This exercise spreads the shoulders and expands the chest. The warrior-like posture gives vent to emotions in the heart. It sorts out qi in the liver and removes chest pain, side pain, and aches in the shoulder blades and across the upper back. ( from ShaolinChanCity )

I am wondering if one does this in a mabu, will it have the same effect ?

I dont know how pricise such ecersices much be ?

Someone have an idea :)

Greetings

taai gihk yahn
03-13-2010, 01:02 PM
this is how my teacher does it:
http://users.erols.com/dantao/bookcover.jpg

uki
03-13-2010, 01:13 PM
The effect is : This exercise spreads the shoulders and expands the chest. The warrior-like posture gives vent to emotions in the heart. It sorts out qi in the liver and removes chest pain, side pain, and aches in the shoulder blades and across the upper back.iron ball juggling in a deep horse stance amplifies this effect... then again it amplifies most anything in the martial arts. :p

extrajoseph
03-14-2010, 03:15 PM
The mabu can be high or low but the body needs to be rooted with a yin yang difference (the side pulling the bow open has more weight than the other) and follow the gravitational force and not to strain your knees by pushing it too far forward or to one side, plus the qi must to sink to the lower dantain.

Look at all the pictures and see who is the most comfortable and stable and can stay in the posture the longest (zhanzhuang) and that would be the best way of doing it.

pazman
03-14-2010, 09:33 PM
Eugene,
There are so many differences among the various qigong exercises....it can get confusing. So, I recommend looking at the similarities between them...that is where you'll find the most important points to remember.

This move is found in many different traditions in China, and even in tantric traditions in India and Tibet. The stance can be high or low and you'll still receive the benefit. The most important thing in qigong is that whatever movement you make, you do so deliberately and with awareness.:)

Eugene
03-15-2010, 12:51 AM
@extrajoseph,

looking it like that, to see who can hold the position the longers is a good way to see it yah, tx

@taai gihk yahn,

The picture of your master is pritty cool, it shows power and piece at the same time :)

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 01:00 AM
@taai gihk yahn,

The picture of your master is pritty cool, it shows power and piece at the same time :)

I was thinking more in terms of stability and peace i.e. harmony/balance!

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 05:44 AM
Making it easier for comparison by putting the four pictures altogether, look for the similarities and differences, copy by standing in front of a mirror with the pictures and try out each posture yourself for 5 - 10 minute without moving and see how it feels, use stability, being natural and comfortable (ziran) as your guide, having pain in the joints (not tightness) means you are doing something wrong, if your eyes cannot tell the difference then use your body awareness and time as your helper, that is the best and safest way to correct one's posture for self learning at home. May the (gravitational) Force be with you!

mawali
03-15-2010, 06:09 AM
Age and fitness would determine the degree of mabu. For yangsheng vitalization, medium stance would be sufficent as opposed to the "extreme" mabu of shaolin traditions. I have seen some systems of baduanjin stay in mabu when stretching both left and right as opposed to, when pulling left/right, rise up slightly then go down to pull to the opposite side!

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 07:34 AM
I should mention that, when we do this posture, there is a first the component of equal weightedness (which you see in the picture I posted), and then there is a component that has the asymmetrical weight bearing, where you shift away from the "arrow" side and raise the line of the straightened arm up to a diagonal (like the picture of the monk posted earlier); then there is a transitional movement of the arms for changing sides (which is hard to describe); so the first part is like the "draw", the second part is like the "aim" and the third is like the "release" of the string and taking the next arrow from the quiver and setting it on the string

this movement is basically a lung / large intestine meridian /sinew "stretch"

u can also do it in a hi, mid or lo stance (or alternate, starting hi, getting lower on successive reps);

interesting that of all the examples, ours is the only one where the thumbs and 3rd - 5th fingers are in contact w/each other - I'd be curious if anyone would experiment with both ways of doing it and see if they felt a difference (or not);

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 09:54 AM
I tried what you have suggested and felt after a few minutes which one not to do because there is a huge difference, in one my qi is completely blocked, now I have a better understanding of what "one finger pointing to heaven" means. Thanks for the experiment.

Eugene
03-15-2010, 10:28 AM
I am also going to try to copy the 4 pics out today, and see where it will take me,

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:34 AM
I tried what you have suggested and felt after a few minutes which one not to do because there is a huge difference, in one my qi is completely blocked, now I have a better understanding of what "one finger pointing to heaven" means. Thanks for the experiment.

so which one did you feel the "qi" to be "blocked", and at what point?

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 10:51 AM
Why don't you try it yourself? You suggested the experiment in the first place.

Just push your arms out in opposing sides, pull the fingers back, hold one without the fingers touching each other in "one finger pointing to heaven" configuration and the other with the 3rd - 5th fingers touching each other as you mentioned and see what happens.

Soon (no more than a couple of minutes for me) you will know in which one the qi is blocked and feel weaker and less powerful. You can also breath out and try to send the qi outward by straighten the arm a little and see which one responds better as well.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 11:41 AM
Why don't you try it yourself? You suggested the experiment in the first place.

Just push your arms out in opposing sides, pull the fingers back, hold one without the fingers touching each other in "one finger pointing to heaven" configuration and the other with the 3rd - 5th fingers touching each other as you mentioned and see what happens.

Soon (no more than a couple of minutes for me) you will know in which one the qi is blocked and feel weaker and less powerful. You can also breath out and try to send the qi outward by straighten the arm a little and see which one responds better as well.

ummm, are you serious? you really think I don't have an opinion / perspective on it, that somehow I am asking because I don't? "try it"? bro, I've been "trying it" that way and with variations for ~15 yrs. so I could talk all day in almost mind-numbing detail about my take on it; but that wouldn't be much of a conversation, would it? I mean, do you really WANT me to do that?
dude, I asked you because I was curious what your experience was with the different ways of doing it, as you did not specify which one you thought caused your "qi" to be "blocked" - I know what my personal experience is, but why would I assume that you necessarily had the same one as I did? that would be pretty arrogant; therefore, I asked you to clarify; and it's ok if you don't want to answer my question as well, just say so...

also the way that you describe getting into the posture ("pushing" the arms out to the sides) is not going to get the actual effect that the movement is designed to get; just sayin'...

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 12:03 PM
So why ask? You already knew.

Do you think it will make any difference of what I'd say, after your 15 years of experience of feeling one way or another and knowing what it is all about in minute details?

Just continue what you are doing and it will be find.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 12:58 PM
So why ask? You already knew.
are you really that obtuse? or are you just doing the "Chinese thing"?

as you are doubtless aware, this is a DISCUSSION forum

people come here to DISCUSS things

DISCUSSION usually involves two or more people sharing experiences

since you had mentioned your experience trying the two different ways, I was curious which one generated the results you mentioned; hence, I attempted to engage you in a DISCUSSION about it;

so that's why I asked;

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 01:04 PM
Do you think it will make any difference of what I'd say, after your 15 years of experience of feeling one way or another and knowing what it is all about in minute details?
well, while it will not make a major difference, it might perhaps give me another interesting perspective upon which to reflect: it depends; see, even after 15 years of practice, it is possible to actually gain benefit from hearing about the experience of others; in case you didn't notice, I didn't say anything about my own experience until after you assumed that I had not tried it myself - if I had come on initially stating how much I knew about it, that might have come across as arrogant; instead, I made a comment; you replied; I inquired further; then you made an assumption and it just degenerated from there, unfortunately;


Just continue what you are doing and it will be find.
are you being sarcastic? if not, it seems strange that you would feel the need to state this otherwise...

GeneChing
03-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Eight Section brocade is one of the most popular qigong regimens in the world.

Here's some resources:
DVD
8 Section Brocade (Baduanjin) DVD with instruction manual (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-hq004.html)CHQA version

Eight Pieces of Brocade by GM Tu Jinsheng (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-jt004.html)

VHS
Eight Simple Qigong Exercises by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming (http://www.martialartsmart.com/pr-ym22x.html)

Ancient Oriental Health Exercises Eight Pieces of Silk Brocade (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-pr-tp002.html)

Music
8 Section Brocade (http://www.martialartsmart.com/aud-hq004.html)

Poster
8-section brocade poster (http://www.martialartsmart.com/85-12.html)

Articles
The Eight Section Brocade: Qigong From Shaolin Temple By Gene Ching (May June 2001 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=136))

The Eight Section Brocade of General Yue Fei Qigong for the Warrior By PengCheng Chen and Feng Wu (Part 1 Jan Feb 2004 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=436), Part 2 Mar Apr 2004 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=453))

The 8 Section Brocade By Annie Rose (Nov Dec 2009 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=845))

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 01:19 PM
"are you really that obtuse? or are you just doing the "Chinese thing"?
as you are doubtless aware, this is a DISCUSSION forum
people come here to DISCUSS things
DISCUSSION usually involves two or more people sharing experiences
since you had mentioned your experience trying the two different ways, I was curious which one generated the results you mentioned; hence, I attempted to engage you in a DISCUSSION about it;
so that's why I asked;"

If you want a genuine discussion, why use a trick question?

Just tell us how you felt after doing it for 15 years with the two different ways, instead of pretending you have just noticed the difference.

You have already told me what I have done wrong, but you still have not tell us how you are doing it right and how you feel, so where is the genuine sharing?

It feels like an ambush to me.

I was born Chinese, so I cannot help but doing the "Chinese thing". :eek:

Eugene
03-15-2010, 01:22 PM
I tried each posture for a few minutes, and tried to do it relaxed, but my energie was blocked in the first pic, the warrior stance, also to breath costed me some more energy,

I guess the main thing is to check how the enery flows ? and the breathing goes,

@taai gihk yahn, well, my qi kinda stopped when I aimed high in the warrior stances, In the other 3 moves, it went better. But when I stood deep, but I aimed horizontal, the energy was better again, but I am not sure if this had to do with my stances condition, maybe if i have 30 years of practice with warrior stances, my qi would be just as good in a deep mabu stance, that i would also practice for 30 years.

I am more familiar with mabu`s then these over the knee warrior stances,

Its unbilieveble that one name or posture can have such a outcome, lucky BaduanJin doesnt have 40 postures!

Tx GeneChing for these links :)

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 01:24 PM
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;999399

are you being sarcastic? if not, it seems strange that you would feel the need to state this otherwise...[/QUOTE]

No I am not being sarcastic, like I said earlier, trust your feeling and and your senses, it is your reality and what you are capable.

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 01:49 PM
well, while it will not make a major difference, it might perhaps give me another interesting perspective upon which to reflect: it depends; see, even after 15 years of practice, it is possible to actually gain benefit from hearing about the experience of others; in case you didn't notice, I didn't say anything about my own experience until after you assumed that I had not tried it myself - if I had come on initially stating how much I knew about it, that might have come across as arrogant; instead, I made a comment; you replied; I inquired further; then you made an assumption and it just degenerated from there, unfortunately;


are you being sarcastic? if not, it seems strange that you would feel the need to state this otherwise...

I know it won't make a major difference because we all feel the way we are capable of feeling, so the best way is to let everyone do what they do at the level that they are capable of doing. After 15 years, whatever second nature we have became first nature, so that is also fine with me because that is the way it is.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 02:08 PM
If you want a genuine discussion, why use a trick question?
LOL - that's your preconception, it's you who decided it was a trick question - don't project your insecurity issues onto me! unless you can show me what about my question was a "trick", I think you might want to reconsider that statement!


Just tell us how you felt after doing it for 15 years with the two different ways,
in case you hadn't noticed, you never actually asked me about my experience; instead, you assumed I had none and then proceeded to "instruct" me as to what I ought to do in order to feel something; instead of saying "I felt 'x' when I did it w/fingers touching and 'y' w/fingers apart; what is your experience?", you were deliberately vague, and when I asked a follow up question, you shifted into your weirdness mode;
as far as my personal experience, when I do it w/fingers closed, I feel the counterbalance between the tips of the fingers of the outstretched arm and where the rear hand connects to Lung Source point; what is important about this is that you can make very subtle changes with the rear hand to change the dynamic tension throughout the entire circuit - if the fingers are open, the posture becomes relatively static and you loose the interplay between the two sides in terms of the neural and connective tissue tension, and as such the way the breath works in context of the move changes as well - you don't get the same "lightness"; also, it's a transverse movement in general, but when you make that connection you get the vertical piece as well - making it a "+" of "sahp ji / fong" sort of thing; of course, this is my personal experience, I don't intend to suggest it is the same way for others;


instead of pretending you have just noticed the difference.
LOL, where did I "pretend" anything? you really are a conspiracy-minded chap!


You have already told me what I have done wrong, but you still have not tell us how you are doing it right and how you feel, so where is the genuine sharing?
you don't get it, do you? I did not presume to tell you anything until after you saw fit to instruct me on how I should do it;
as you see above, I have now "shared" in a "genuine" way; honestly, I would have done that in the first place if anyone asked, because despite what you may have been told, there are no "secrets" - meaning that I can explain in minute detail what I am doing, but so what? did I give away anything?


It feels like an ambush to me.
again, that's your issue, not mine; if you really feel that you are being set up for an ambush, why bother to engage me at all? you could have just ignored my initial suggestion and avoided the "ambush" :rolleyes: completely; so if it felt like an ambush, then you were the one voluntarily walking into it!

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 02:47 PM
I am not enjoying this "discussion" and "sharing" so I will stop and do some qigong instead. You can keep talking.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 04:07 PM
I am not enjoying this "discussion" and "sharing" so I will stop and do some qigong instead. You can keep talking.

Lol
how typical - u r shown point by point how ur misconceptions r as such, and since u can't man up and admit it, u turn tail; if this is how u rise to the challenge of frank communication, u bertter do a double session
I also find it interesting that u still r unwilling to specify which version u felt blocked and which u didn't, even after I shared my experience openly; makes one wonder about ur intentions formposting here in the first
place - maybe u were trying to "ambush" me?!? :eek:
lol, freak...

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 05:09 PM
It really is painful to "share" with you, because you don't want to listen, you just want to hear your own words, so let me say it once more in less a "Chinese thing" way:

I know it won't make a major difference to you whatever I say, because you can only feel the way you are capable of feeling, and do what you are capable of doing, so the best way is to let you do what you do at the level that you are capable of doing and leave it at that. After 15 years, whatever second nature you have will become first nature, so that is also fine with me because that is the way it is. So by all means, feel your counterbalance, your interplay and your lightness.....

In other words, there is no point in telling you my experience, it would only be a waste of time, because at your level, you won't be willing to and you wont be able to appreciate my experience, even though you might think otherwise and tell me you genuinely want to "share" and show me the correct way, and I am sure you will let me share with you a lot more of your verbal diarrhea as well (....it is your preconception, it is your problem, it is your issue, you are doing it wrong, how typical, you really are a conspiracy-minded chap! you don't get it, do you? blah, blah, blah...)

LOL.

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 06:29 PM
I tried each posture for a few minutes, and tried to do it relaxed, but my energie was blocked in the first pic, the warrior stance, also to breath costed me some more energy,
Tx GeneChing for these links :)

Hi Eugene,

You can also try Dr. Yang's way, push you back knee beyond your toes, stick your chest out a little, tilt your head a bit forward, use a "sword finger" turn side-on instead "one finger pointing to heaven" and raise your front arm and your back elbow a fraction as well, and see how you feel.

It says on the cover of Dr. Yang's video "8 Simple Qigong Exercise", but it is not that simple as you have noticed and that is a good start.

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 07:15 PM
"are you really that obtuse? or are you just doing the "Chinese thing"?
as you are doubtless aware, this is a DISCUSSION forum
people come here to DISCUSS things
DISCUSSION usually involves two or more people sharing experiences
since you had mentioned your experience trying the two different ways, I was curious which one generated the results you mentioned; hence, I attempted to engage you in a DISCUSSION about it;
so that's why I asked;"

If you want a genuine discussion, why use a trick question?

Just tell us how you felt after doing it for 15 years with the two different ways, instead of pretending you have just noticed the difference.

You have already told me what I have done wrong, but you still have not tell us how you are doing it right and how you feel, so where is the genuine sharing?

It feels like an ambush to me.

I was born Chinese, so I cannot help but doing the "Chinese thing". :eek:


It really is painful to "share" with you, because you don't want to listen, you just want to hear your own words, so let me say it once more in less a "Chinese thing" way:

I know it won't make a major difference to you whatever I say, because you can only feel the way you are capable of feeling, and do what you are capable of doing, so the best way is to let you do what you do at the level that you are capable of doing and leave it at that. After 15 years, whatever second nature you have will become first nature, so that is also fine with me because that is the way it is. So by all means, feel your counterbalance, your interplay and your lightness.....

In other words, there is no point in telling you my experience, it would only be a waste of time, because at your level, you won't be willing to and you wont be able to appreciate my experience, even though you might think otherwise and tell me you genuinely want to "share" and show me the correct way, and I am sure you will let me share with you a lot more of your verbal diarrhea as well (....it is your preconception, it is your problem, it is your issue, you are doing it wrong, how typical, you really are a conspiracy-minded chap! you don't get it, do you? blah, blah, blah...)

LOL.

Joseph,

You are WAY projecting your issues!

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 07:56 PM
Yes, I guess I am and you are not projecting.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 08:04 PM
It really is painful to "share" with you, because you don't want to listen, you just want to hear your own words,
really? that's interesting, because initially, I asked for other people's opinion, I didn't give mine at all; so where you are getting that I want to hear my own words is strange, especially after I asked you to be specific, and you then criticized ME for not sharing openly; do you realize this contradiction in your reasoning? either you don't which is scary, or you are trolling, which is fine, but you need to do a better job of it;


so let me say it once more in less a "Chinese thing" way:
I know it won't make a major difference to you whatever I say, because you can only feel the way you are capable of feeling, and do what you are capable of doing, so the best way is to let you do what you do at the level that you are capable of doing and leave it at that.
well, this, in general, is true for anyone, including yourself; so what's your point?


After 15 years, whatever second nature you have will become first nature, so that is also fine with me because that is the way it is. So by all means, feel your counterbalance, your interplay and your lightness.....
I'm not sure why you feel the need to validate my experiences for me - why would I need for you, some random stranger on an internet forum, to tell me that it's "ok" to feel whatever it is I am feeling? also, the tenor of your response suggests that you do not think much the content of my "open sharing" - indeed, you seem to be somewhat dismissive about the terms I use (as if they were, I don't know, merely speculation?!?); which, frankly, is fine, because you may not wish to characterize your experience in a similar manner; however, in stead of responding in a tone that suggests belittlement, why not argue their use on their own merits if you find them inadequate or inappropriate in your estimation?


In other words, there is no point in telling you my experience, it would only be a waste of time, because at your level, you won't be willing to and you wont be able to appreciate my experience, even though you might think otherwise and tell me you genuinely want to "share" and show me the correct way, and I am sure you will let me share with you a lot more of your verbal diarrhea as well (....it is your preconception, it is your problem, it is your issue, you are doing it wrong, how typical, you really are a conspiracy-minded chap! you don't get it, do you? blah, blah, blah...)
wow...:eek:
first off, where are you getting that I want to show you the "correct way"? if you recall, you were the first to "offer" instruction to me; second, seriously dude, you are just going off the deep end with this - you accuse me of asking a trick-question (which you answered, BTW:confused:), accuse me of ambushing you, accuse me of not wanting to share, and when I do accuse me of wanting to show you the correct way; whaddupwiddat?either you're a nutter, or you're trolling - please clarify!
second, it is a common (overused) web-fu tactic to characterize another person's posts as predictable and excessively verbose (verbal diarrhea) in order to to get an emotional response; but honestly, such ad hominum attacks are really just pathetic and demonstrate your own lack of ability to engage in any sort of reasoned discourse - but you've proven that by your repeated contradicting yourself (in fact, the fact that you are still taking part in this discussion after doing your little earlier panties-in-a-bunch storm-off demonstrates that you go back on what you say as it suits you), not to mention your somewhat paranoid perspective (trick questions, ambushes, etc.);


LOL.
yes, I'm sure that you are:rolleyes:


Joseph,
You are WAY projecting your issues!
and the Understatement of the Year Award goes to...the Junior Senator from Massachusetts!!!

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 08:08 PM
I am sure you will have a lot more to say, please continue...

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 08:18 PM
Yes, I guess I am and you are not projecting.

Hmmm, let me get this straight.....I am projecting by saying you are projecting?????

How did you get there from your fantasy land?:confused:

I would be interested to learn your reasoning, since so far, you have demonstrated little ability to reason, but a very great capacity for reading nefarious intentions into the comments of others, which IS projecting!:confused:

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 08:22 PM
really? that's interesting, because initially, I asked for other people's opinion, I didn't give mine at all; so where you are getting that I want to hear my own words is strange, especially after I asked you to be specific, and you then criticized ME for not sharing openly; do you realize this contradiction in your reasoning? either you don't which is scary, or you are trolling, which is fine, but you need to do a better job of it;

It is clear that by asking for other people's opinions you are really seeking to trap others into making foolish comments in order to embarrass them!

You are ONE evil and conniving SOB!!

I'll be keeping my eyes on you!!!:eek:

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 08:25 PM
Hmmm, let me get this straight.....I am projecting by saying you are projecting?????

How did you get there from your fantasy land?:confused:

I would be interested to learn your reasoning, since so far, you have demonstrated little ability to reason, but a very great capacity for reading nefarious intentions into the comments of others, which IS projecting!:confused:

Let me stop projecting

Let me stop project

Let me stop pro

Let me stop.

Let me

Let

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 08:25 PM
Let me stop projecting.

Please do!:)

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 08:26 PM
I am sure you will have a lot more to say, please continue...
no, I'm pretty much done w/you and your silliness; although I must say that I was hoping for something a bit more creative than the typical response when one has no ability to refute anything that has been pointed out to them; really dissapointing...


Let me stop projecting.
how about you just stop posting and save yourself from further embarrassment?

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 08:27 PM
I'll be keeping my eyes on you!!!:eek:
well, what else would you be doing across the street from my house with the high-powered rifle scope?

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 08:47 PM
No projecting

No posting

No mind

No me

No u

Zo

Z

ZZ

ZZZZ

ZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 08:53 PM
No projecting

No posting

No mind

No me

No u

Zo

Z

ZZ

ZZZZ

ZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Peace at last!

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 08:54 PM
well, what else would you be doing across the street from my house with the high-powered rifle scope?

Was THAT me??:eek:

I was wondering who that was! I am glad I didn't call the cops on him.....I mean ME!!!:eek:

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 08:56 PM
Peace at last!

Or was it put myself into eternal silence?

I forget....but since the silence is not truly silent I guess it doesn't matter!

Scott R. Brown
03-15-2010, 08:58 PM
Or was it put myself into eternal silence?

I forget....but since the silence is not truly silent I guess it doesn't matter!

Hey......quit stealing my lines........make up you own!:mad::p

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 09:14 PM
Hey......quit stealing my lines........make up you own!:mad::p

I'm not sure why you feel the need to validate my experiences for me - why would I need for you, some random stranger on an internet forum, to tell me that it's "ok" to feel whatever it is I am stealing?

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 09:23 PM
how about you just stop posting and save yourself from further embarrassment?

I hope that from now on, anytime I do have the desire to post again, that you think of your burning hatred for me, and that this will help you move yourself away from the computer and back to your meditation cushion for more fine tuning!

If I ever post again, I will know that you have made good use of your hatred and turned it into profound silence - which means more embarrassing merit of you for me, yipeeee!!!!

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 09:48 PM
I hope that from now on, anytime I do have the desire to post again, that you think of your burning hatred for me, and that this will help you move yourself away from the computer and back to your meditation cushion for more fine tuning!

If I ever post again, I will know that you have made good use of your hatred and turned it into profound silence - which means more embarrassing merit of you for me, yipeeee!!!!

I see that you have gone from paranoia to psychosis in just under two pages; that must be some kind of record;

and to think - all because I asked a general question that you answered and then when I asked a specific follow-up for clarification you first thought I was clueless, then that it was a trick, then an ambush, then it was me withholding information, and then me giving too much information; and then you did a hissy storm-off, followed (predictably) by a return to the thread; and now you are cutting / pasting and altering posts of mine from other threads which have nothing to do with you or this conversation (if I was HW108, I'd start characterizing you as deceitful and as engaging in vile and slanderous behavior; but I'm not, so I won't);

wow, just wow...a new era in KFMF craziness, heralded in by extrajoseph...

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 09:55 PM
It goes to show how hollow your words can be, pompous and meaningless. How about you just stop posting and save yourself from further embarrassment?

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:07 PM
It goes to show how hollow your words can be, pompous and meaningless.

Hendrick? is that you?!?

seriously though - see, the funny thing here, is that you initially tried the "experiment" I suggested and even provided feedback about your experience - but when I asked you to specify for the simple sake of clarification of discussion, you acted like a paranoid in regards to seeing trick questions and ambushes without any evidence thereof (and when asked to provide evidence that I was asking you a trick question or ambushing you, you fail to provide any); then you accused me of holding back my own experience and not sharing openly; then when I do share openly, you belittle my choice of words and accuse me of verbal diarrhea and of trying to convince you that my way is better than yours!

don't you realize the inconsistencies in your behavior here?

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 10:09 PM
Don't you realize I don't have the desire to share my experience with you? Are you really that thick?

Scott R Brown? Is that you?

Don't you realize the consistencies in your behavior here?

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:14 PM
Don't you realize I don't have the desire to share my experience with you? Are you really that thick?

LOL - then why did you do so initially? why engage someone in a DISCUSSION if you don't have the desire to share your experience?

c'mon, you're just trolling now, right?

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:20 PM
Scott R Brown? Is that you?

Don't you realize the consistencies in your behavior here?
ok, I get it - you're trolling;

it's too bad - your initial response appeared sincere; I responded in kind; then you, apparently, decided to troll;

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 10:26 PM
You can say what you like, you are not the one I like to share my experience with. Go and talk to someone else, you are embarrassingly thick skin like a crocodile!

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:33 PM
You can say what you like, you are not the one I like to share my experience with.
aww, shucks, I feel so rejected!

of course, you still didn't answer my question as to why did you respond in the first place if I am not "the one" you want to share your experiences with?


Go and talk to someone else, you are embarrassingly thick skin like a crocodile!
I'd have to be thick skinned to survive the painful experience of trying to talk logically to someone as dull-witted as you appear to be

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 10:37 PM
I'd have to be thick skinned to survive the painful experience of trying to talk logically to someone as dull-witted as you appear to be

There is no need to keep talking, you can just stop.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:41 PM
There is no need to keep talking, you can just stop.
I'm just fine, thank you, I'll "talk" as long as it pleases me;

however, considering that you announced how you were no longer going to participate in this thread almost 2 pages ago, one might wonder when you were going to do just that?

I'l take you non-reply as a sign that you have chosen to live up to your word

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 10:44 PM
Non-reply.

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 10:46 PM
Non-reply.

another glaring failure, like every other thing you have posted here!

and you still are ducking the question about why you responded in the first place if you didn't want to "share"?

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 10:55 PM
Another glaring insult, like every other thing you have posted here!

You asked for a non-reply and I gave you one, but it looks like you want to have the last word, so why don't you be honest and say so, "I want to have the last word!"

taai gihk yahn
03-15-2010, 11:15 PM
Another glaring insult, like every other thing you have posted here!
lol, this after all the assumptions and paranoid delusions you dumped on here for the last 3 pages of you completely derailing this thread!


You asked for a non-reply and I gave you one,
no you didn't; you "gave" a failed attempt at trying to be clever


but it looks like you want to have the last word, so why don't you be honest and say so, "I want to have the last word!"
projecting yet again, I see...

and ducking as well...

extrajoseph
03-15-2010, 11:28 PM
So you do want to have the last word but you won't admit to it, instead you projected onto me projecting, what a pompous a$$ you are!

I will let you reply and then remain silent to show you my good will and understanding of what a poor sot you have been.

Alternatively, just remain silent and we are done with each other.

Scott R. Brown
03-16-2010, 12:04 AM
The Last Word!!!!:eek:

Eugene
03-16-2010, 02:14 AM
@extrajoseph

Thx for the link to that video of Mr. Yang and the advice.

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 04:04 AM
Hi Eugene,

Here is another photo comparison for your interest, on the left is Shaolin Monk Shi Yong-Yao. Look at the similarity and difference in their head tilt, shoulder height, chest/elbow expansion, fingers, knees and feet positions and compare how the upper is "open" while the lower is "closed" (yin/yang balance). Most importantly, look to see which is more stable, more comfortable and more powerful and ask yourself why?

If you cannot tell the difference between the two, that is OK too. There is no need to ask others because they will tell you their level of understanding, experience it yourself instead by slight shifting of the different parts of the body through copying what they are doing and use the comfort and stability of your body as a guide to make a self-aware judgement.

The more advanced you are in your study the more you can differentiate and that is to be expected, meanwhile you can start by copying and feeling which is more comfortable and stable.

You can also study in a similar way using freeze-frame in a video, because a correct movement is made of series of correct zhanzhuang postures link together, and we can study them individually with modern technology.

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 04:13 AM
The Last Word!!!!:eek:

in extraJ's case, I think that it would be "prodjeculation" (projecting and ducking in order to get the Last Word™)

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 07:29 AM
@taai gihk yahn, well, my qi kinda stopped when I aimed high in the warrior stances, In the other 3 moves, it went better. But when I stood deep, but I aimed horizontal, the energy was better again, but I am not sure if this had to do with my stances condition, maybe if i have 30 years of practice with warrior stances, my qi would be just as good in a deep mabu stance, that i would also practice for 30 years.

hey Eugene,

sorry, I missed your response here in the midst of all the festivities!

an aspect of this posture / movement that I have found to be of use is to consider the sinew system as it relates to the lungs (http://tcmadvisory.com/Acupuncture-Moxibustion/UploadPic/2009-3/20093419565692847.jpg) and large intestine (http://tcmadvisory.com/Acupuncture-Moxibustion/UploadPic/2009-3/2009341956954453.jpg) channels, and also the the yin and yang linking vessels (http://www.lieske.com/channels/5e-linking.htm)

classically, the movement of "qi" is from proximal to distal along lung and then back along LI; if you consider how the circuit is connected both via the extended hand and the rear hand from one side to the other, that may be useful in terms of how one can regulate the tension in the sinews in order to produce a balanced effect; bearing in mind that this balanced tension is fine tuned by both movement of the hands and regulation of the breath together; of course, the root component of the stance assist in this along the vertical lines, and to also consider that while the lower half of the body is rooted (gan), the upper half maintains the liteness (hing)

as such, I personally have found this particular movement to be rather powerful in terms of assisting the body in its function of auto-regulation (autonomic nervous system function, circadian rhythms, even vestibulo-occular system); my point is that, while one can certainly talk about "qi", at the same time, I personally believe that one needs must have an understanding of contemporary physiology in order to discern what one is feeling and deriving from the practice;

finally, I should say that, while I did suggest the "experiment" of trying the movement with fingers touching and not touching, please understand that I am not attempting to instruct anyone in the specifics of the posture, as it is, AFAIK, a relatively complex movement which is set-up very speifically to get the quality of balanced tension in the sinews that I mentioned above; so certainly I can understand that anothers experience of this posture may be much different than mine;

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 08:20 AM
Hi Eugene,

IMO, for a beginner approaching the study of Qigong, it is best to get the external structural components correct before worrying about the internal organs and meridian lines and what they would do, because if the external movements are done correctly then the internal will kick in automatically through the breath.

This movement puts its emphasis on the rotation of the cervical and thoracic vertebra as well as the vertebra of the waist. Through turning and rotating, the blood and the fluid circulation will improve and at the same time the internal organs located in the upper and middle part of the body, like the lung and the heart, will get their internal massage.

By stretching and relaxing and by expanding and contracting the chest and the arms, the lung and the heart will be strengthened as well as the muscular and skeletal components, helping to prevent rheumatic trouble of the joints and four limbs..

The substantial and the insubstantial repetitions of rotating and stretching the body from side to side not only help to strengthen the leg muscles but also help to improve alignment of the shoulders, the back and the hip, preventing any chronic back problems from arising, but only if the movements are done correctly, otherwise more harm is done than good.

Particular attention should be paid not to stress the knees out by pushing them too far forward, or tilting the back too far forward or backward, thus losing the stability and the alignment of the bogy. My take is to work with the seen before worrying about the unseen and work with the structural before worrying about the medical.

Visual comparison is the best way to gain some insights into the working of Qigong, people may tell you lies but their body cannot, we can read their body and be able to see if they are telling the truth or just being the great pretender with their flowery words and acupuncture charts.

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 08:42 AM
Visual comparison is the best way to gain some insights into the working of Qigong, people may tell you lies but their body cannot, we can read their body and be able to see if they are telling the truth or just being the great pretender with their flowery words and acupuncture charts.
lol, as opposed to being the Great Prodjeculator, engaging in passive-aggressive attacks when they are not even being engaged in a conversation anymore (even when they were given the Last Word™ :eek:)
Eugene: obviously "extraJ" and I were having some drama between ourselves here (all in good fun, of course); it's unfortunate though, that he has now chosen to extrapolate his apparently negative opinion of me onto what I posted to you, to try to turn it into some sort of "I'm right / he's wrong" sort of thing; frankly, if he has an issue with me, that's fine, but to try to drag you into it is just bad form;
anyway, I posted some stuff that I thought would be of interest to you, based on what you had reported - if it's useful for you, great; if not, that's ok as well; but obviously "specialJ" has taken issue with what I posted (and didn't even have the integrity to address me directly on it either - talk about revealing!); since he apparently can't let this whole thing go, I'll just let him continue on his merry way, as he is apparently going to keep personalizing this and derailing the thread yet again

GeneChing
03-16-2010, 09:18 AM
Eugene - good on you for staying OT. I hope you don't let this cattiness reflect upon all baduanjin in your eyes. :rolleyes:

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 09:20 AM
Hi Eugene,

The remark is not for anyone in particular, it is to point out that the physical is more telling than the verbal and beware of the impressive accessories that the charlatans used, like white Daoist uniforms, medical charts and pretentious philosophical talks, to fool the gullible.

Funny how some people just don't realize that I am talking to you and not to them, it takes an egotistic moron to think everyone are talking about him all the time and no one else. One only has to write a few words and this moron will jump on you and accused you of passive-aggressive attacks with words that are meant for you and not "it".

Again, I have to retreat and say no more, just to keep the peace. What a shame! I have been doing Baduanjing for over 40 years now and studied many versions (north and south) of the same thing from different teachers, I thought I have something to offer, but this environment and this moron makes the task impossible, so goodbye and good luck.

Cheers.

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 11:02 AM
Eugene - good on you for staying OT. I hope you don't let this cattiness reflect upon all baduanjin in your eyes. :rolleyes:

Gene's right - what a silly thing to have a flame war over - as opposed to all the other really good and valid reasons that usually result in that sort of thing on KFMF!!!

anyway, look Gene, if you read the thread through, you will notice that extraJ was the one who just weirded out big time out of nowhere in the middle of what was on the way to becoming a productive exchange, accusing me of asking trick questions, trying to ambush him and not being forthright when I asked him to clarify a statement he made :confused::confused::confused:

so, since it's spring time, and winter hath shook off his silver mantle, I figured, what better way to herald the season of awakening than with a good old KFMF flamerama!

otherwise, you're right, and Eugene should certainly not misconster any of this beyond a couple of guys just being silly with each other!

Eugene
03-16-2010, 01:52 PM
@extrajoseph,

I have look at the picture of Shi Yong Yao and The other Master a while.

I have seen a video of Shi Yong Yao one time I think, where he demonstrated his Iron Finger, but thats the only time I saw something of him on you tube.

There are alot of differences, he leans his head more forward looking, and the Master on the right, has his head a lil backward,
and maybe all parts are a lil different when you look a lil while at em.
Alot of things as you mention to look at,

I cant see it from the front view, but it also looks as if Yong Yoa has a straigh back, vertical and the second Master is a lil going forward, well plenty to see hehe

I think they both stand firm and powerfull, I cant see wich is more powerfull.

Alot of things you said, are above my head, I have to read it zillion times to understand it even, ( I also have to translate some english words into dutch to understand it better ) I epreciate your sharing :)

GeneChing
03-16-2010, 02:19 PM
Good point, tgy. Too bad ej has to 'retreat.' Like I always say, 'If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the flame war.' :rolleyes:

Back OT, I've seen more variations of baduanjin than any other regimen. I've culled my own method out of this and practice what you might call a jiuduanjin. It's closest to the Shaolin form that is illustrated in the article that I referenced earlier in this thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=999402&postcount=19). I've made some modifications to fit my own particular issues. Mostly it's extractions from the CHQA version and an O-Mei version that Tony Chen (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=454) showed me.

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 04:46 PM
The remark is not for anyone in particular, it is to point out that the physical is more telling than the verbal and beware of the impressive accessories that the charlatans used, like white Daoist uniforms, medical charts and pretentious philosophical talks, to fool the gullible.
I see; so according to your "logic", if someone wears a "white Daoist uniform", employs "medical charts" or uses "pretentious philosophical" terms, then they are a charlatan? hm; well, let's examine that:

first, so you've twice now made pejorative remarks about "medical / acupunture charts"; so what, exactly, is your problem with them? is it:
a) you don't like acupuncture charts in general (e.g. - you don't believe that they are acurate, valid, etc.)
b) you don't like acupuncture charts to be used in relation to qigong practice (e.g. - you don't think that they are relevant)
c) you don't think my particular examples of the lung / LI / linking vessel charts are germaine to the qigong in question
please try to answer this question, because if you are going to make negative comments about the use of acupuncture charts, I'm sure a lot of people here, including myself, are curious as to the reasons for your polemic;

as far as "pretentious philosophical terms" - I'm wondering if there are some specific phrases I have written that you find to be "pretentious"; if you would kindly point these out specifically and explain why you believe them to be pretentious, that would be helpful; or, if you are speaking in general, is it fair to say that you do NOT consider anything I have written to be pretentious?

finally, as far as charlatans wearing the "white Daoist uniform" - do you mean like this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://users.erols.com/dantao/imageDR9.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.erols.com/dantao/page8.html&usg=__r1YHSQdjaBIcdw2E1fdYTFFbXcA=&h=252&w=212&sz=3&hl=en&start=14&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=zWnXdRbMHecQNM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsat%2Bhon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client %3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1) one?:rolleyes:



Funny how some people just don't realize that I am talking to you and not to them, it takes an egotistic moron to think everyone are talking about him all the time and no one else. One only has to write a few words and this moron will jump on you and accused you of passive-aggressive attacks with words that are meant for you and not "it".
of c'mon already - you WERE talking to me, and you KNOW it - don't try that BS, it's insulting to anyone with an ounce of intelligence - I mean, are you trying to tell me that it was just a COINCIDENCE that in your post immediately following the one where I reference acupuncture charts and use some "Big Words™" (that you probably didn't even understand), you just HAPPENED make the comment about "flowery words and acupuncture charts"? and not only that, but you went back and edited that post specifically to include that comment? really? REALLY?!?
gimmie a break...
also, a moron is, according to a somewhat outmoded and controversial qualification scale, someone with an IQ of 51-70; if you are truly of the opinion that I am a moron, please indicate where exactly what I have posted has given you cause to use this term; or are you just gratuitously insulting me here? which is interesting, considering that for all your polemic against me, you will notice that I have not engaged in any similar ad hominum attacks, nor have I used any sort of pejorative terms to describe you personally - I have only commented on the specific behavior you have demonstrated here: like calling you paranoid for accusing me of trying to trick you and ambush you with my questions, or passive aggressive because of how you attack me indirectly with you crack about "flowery words" and then claim that you were not referring to my post (and it IS passive-aggressive - you may not like the term, or may not understand what it means, and hence you ridicule my use of it, but that's what it is that you are being, simple fact); yet you are the one calling me a "moron", without providing a basis for your use of this term (again, if your are able to specifically point out things I have written the connote my lack of intelligence in terms of any subject matter I have presented, please do so)


Again, I have to retreat and say no more, just to keep the peace. What a shame! I have been doing Baduanjing for over 40 years now and studied many versions (north and south) of the same thing from different teachers, I thought I have something to offer, but this environment and this moron makes the task impossible, so goodbye and good luck.
and now you play the martyr - throwing yourself on your sword and retreating to keep the peace - puh-leeze; spare everyone the sacrificial lamb drama; you're not keeping the peace by leaving - you're just wussing out; well, as Gene said, if you can't take the heat...

but you are right about one thing - it IS a shame; it's a shame that for someone who has been practicing "internal" for 40 years, you show such a surprising lack of self-awareness, and demonstrate a consistent penchant for casting blame onto another person for events of your own making; you claim that I make it impossible for you to offer something, but in fact it is you yourself in your own limitation that creates the impossibility; your hissy-fit attitude further demonstrates your lack of ability to achieve any sort of balanced perspective of how ridiculously you have behaved here from almost the very start, where you TOTALLY misunderstood my intention and, when I explained it to you, instead of reconsidering your stance, you lurched even further into your own delusional polemic (more "flowery words"; if you don't understand them, try a dictionary before you belittle my using them - it's not my fault if you have the vocabulary of a grade schooler and need to stick to mono-syllabics);

by the way, you STILL didn't answer my simple question! which version caused you to feel your "qi" get blocked? since you are obviously aware by now that this is not a trick question, nor an ambush, nor am I interested in telling you that you are doing anything wrong, nor am I withholding my own experience, there really shouldn't be any reason for you NOT to answer the question at this point, right?

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 04:47 PM
@extrajoseph,

I have look at the picture of Shi Yong Yao and The other Master a while.

I have seen a video of Shi Yong Yao one time I think, where he demonstrated his Iron Finger, but thats the only time I saw something of him on you tube.

There are alot of differences, he leans his head more forward looking, and the Master on the right, has his head a lil backward,
and maybe all parts are a lil different when you look a lil while at em.
Alot of things as you mention to look at,

I cant see it from the front view, but it also looks as if Yong Yoa has a straigh back, vertical and the second Master is a lil going forward, well plenty to see hehe

I think they both stand firm and powerfull, I cant see wich is more powerfull.

Alot of things you said, are above my head, I have to read it zillion times to understand it even, ( I also have to translate some english words into dutch to understand it better ) I epreciate your sharing :)

Hi Eugene,

Master Shi's gongfu is much deeper and you can tell by the stance, he is stable and strong because he can root his body to the ground by aligning it with the gravitational force and that is being vertical and straight (zhongzheng 中正) without sacrificing the curvature of the spine.

Master Sat's gongfu is shallow by comparison because he is not rooted and that is due to his inability to align his body with the gravitational force. The trouble is in his knees and his hip, and as you said he leans a bit too far forward in order to get down.

Master Shi's upper body is open while Master Sat is closed and that is partially caused by the difference in the way the fingers are configured in the front arm and also how the elbow is stretched in the back. Consequently Master Shi's body weight is able to travel downward solidly whereas Master Sat has to hold it up and as a result his qi is blocked in the hip and the knees.

In the higher level of training "the God is in the details", one gets a feeling he is posing for the picture and can't wait for the photographer to finish so he can get up, whereas Master Shi is just going through his pace leisurely.

Since Gene encouraged me to stand the heat, so I have put on my flame suit and is ready for the Mongolian's attack knowing Master Sat is his teacher.

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 04:52 PM
I
by the way, you STILL didn't answer my simple question! which version caused you to feel your "qi" get blocked? since you are obviously aware by now that this is not a trick question, nor an ambush, nor am I interested in telling you that you are doing anything wrong, nor am I withholding my own experience, there really shouldn't be any reason for you NOT to answer the question at this point, right?

I have no desire to answer any of your questions nor to engage you in a flame-war, so just keep on throwing dirt, I'll watch instead.

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 05:05 PM
I have no desire to answer any of your questions
lol, you are so dramatic! what's the big deal? why can't you just answer the simple question that I asked, about which version of the posture caused you to feel blocked? you have avoided that from the start, before you had any opinion of me at all; so it's obviously not about me personally - what gives?


nor to engage you in a flame-war, so just keep on throwing dirt, I'll watch instead.
please show me what "dirt" I am throwing! there is no "dirt" - I have addressed every single one of your diatribes, accusations, false claims point by point, demonstrating the error in each; and when i do so, instead of answering them directly to counter my points, you throw out little aphorisms like the above, trying to show how you are so above all this, when in fact you are in it as deep as you can be, but just can't handle it when someone dissects what you write in a way that makes it glaringly obvious how you say things without any basis and then can't back them up!

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Hi Eugene,

Master Shi's gongfu is much deeper and you can tell by the stance, he is stable and strong because he can root his body to the ground by aligning it with the gravitational force and that is being vertical and straight (zhongzheng 中正) without sacrificing the curvature of the spine.

Master Sat's gongfu is shallow by comparison because he is not rooted and that is due to his inability to align his body with the gravitational force. The trouble is in his knees and his hip, and as you said he leans a bit too far forward in order to get down.

Master Shi's upper body is open while Master Sat is closed and that is partially caused by the difference in the way the fingers are configured in the front arm and also how the elbow is stretched in the back. Consequently Master Shi's body weight is able to travel downward solidly whereas Master Sat has to hold it up and as a result his qi is blocked in the hip and the knees.

In the higher level of training "the God is in the details", one gets a feeling he is posing for the picture and can't wait for the photographer to finish so he can get up, whereas Master Shi is just going through his pace leisurely.

Since Gene encouraged me to stand the heat, so I have put on my flame suit and is ready for the Mongolian's attack knowing Master Sat is his teacher.
lol, like I care what you think of my teacher, as if I am going to have some reaction because you criticise his posture and draw conclusions about his root, his qi, etc.; hey, if that's your opinion, good for you, you are welcome to it; if you get all that from a photograph, even better, it saves you the trouble of having to come to NY to verify your perspective in person; of course, if Master Sat ever has occasion to travel to Montreal for a seminar or some such, I will let you know and then you could perhaps arrange for an opportunity to verify your belief if such is your interest; or not;

of course, I may personally have a different take on Sat's way of doing things, but it is not my job to defend him, he can do just fine on his own; in fact, if extraJ wants, he can contact him directly at http://sathon.net/ and express his opinion directly to Sat - he is always happy to receive constructive criticism;

I will agree with one thing: when Sat took the picture, it was in the middle of February and about 25˚ F w/wind chill making it even colder; so in fact, he was in a hurry to get the photo session over with (he was out there for about 40 min. total in a thin outfit - unfortunately, he had to do it in that weather due to the publishing deadline!); so if he looks a bit uncomfortable, that's the reason

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 05:25 PM
extraJ didn't want to answer my question because he is of the opinion that by connecting the last three fingers to the thumb, it "blocks" his "qi" and is therefore an incorrect way of doing the movement;

is that right?

really?

because, if it is, my goodness - all that drama just to avoid telling me that you think the way I do it is incorrect? as if that would upset me or something, or that I would proceed to tell you that your way is wrong or something?

look, if that's what you felt, if that was your assessment of it, then good for you - what can I say except, "ok"; how could I argue that you didn't feel what you felt? if you felt your qi blocked, that's on you; my personal experience, as well as that of others, is different from yours; and I can certainly argue why I prefer that particular method and why I think it is of benefit in its own way in contrast to other versions (not which i think are incorrect, just that yield a different result)

all that drama just to avoid being forthright; wow...

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 05:49 PM
That is why I have not answer your question because you are not at the level where I can communicate with you (I know, it sounds like I am boasting) and if you cannot see the gross mistakes your teacher is making, how can you expect me to make you appreciate the subtle details? It is not about whether it is being forthright or not it is about whether I should waste my time.

You can have as many takes as you like but a posture can be tested because it is something physical and structural, so test your teacher's posture next time you see him, if he is aligned, stable and rooted then your force can travel down to the ground and you can feel it like columns of a building, transmitting its weight to the ground.

I know you will continue to disagree, so lets stop here and you can feel your qi your way and I can test it my way. The gulf is too great for us to bridge at this stage.

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 06:47 PM
That is why I have not answer your question because you are not at the level where I can communicate with you (I know, it sounds like I am boasting)
no, it sounds more like delusions of grandeur necessary to reinforce your personal ego-structure; but whatever works for you...


and if you cannot see the gross mistakes your teacher is making, how can you expect me to make you appreciate the subtle details?
that's ok, I'm appreciating appreciating them just fine without you "making me" :rolleyes:; as far as the "gross mistakes" you mention, that's your opinion - I disagree; you will argue that I just don't see it, but considering that I assess and correct postural alignment for a living and have been doing it successfully for over 15 yrs., (meaning that people come for treatment for pain and dysfunction, and consistently leave without it), I think I will trust my own perspective just a bit more than yours (and btw, I know u don't see it, but he's not leaning forwards in the picture, he is rooted, his upper body is open and his "qi" is not blocked in his hips and knees; if you can't see that after 40 yrs. of practice, I'm afraid that it is I who have nothing to offer you that you would be able to appreciate)


It is not about whether it is being forthright or not it is about whether I should waste my time.
yet you have no qualms about "wasting your time" as long as you feel your ego-structure being threatened;


You can have as many takes as you like but a posture can be tested because it is something physical and structural, so test your teacher's posture next time you see him, if he is aligned, stable and rooted then your force can travel down to the ground and you can feel it like columns of a building, transmitting its weight to the ground.
lol, you have no idea what it's like pushing with him...nothing like u describe, it goes infinitely "deeper" than that...


I know you will continue to disagree, so lets stop here and you can feel your qi your way and I can test it my way. The gulf is too great for us to bridge at this stage.
yes, your own level of understanding is far too incomprehensible for me :rolleyes:
and btw, you might want to examine these control-freak tendencies you consistently display in regards to your repeatedly dictating the terms under which I should continue to post or not;

NEXT!

extrajoseph
03-16-2010, 06:54 PM
yes, your own level of understanding is far too incomprehensible for me :rolleyes:
and btw, you might want to examine these control-freak tendencies you consistently display in regards to your repeatedly dictating the terms under which I should continue to post or not;
NEXT!

Nothing will stop you from posting, so why worry about me?

There is no need for us to exchange and share, we are just too different, so let it be. I can sense this right from the beginning.

"lol, you have no idea what it's like pushing with him...nothing like u describe, it goes infinitely "deeper" than that..." Of course you would say that, because you have not gone beyond him and you never will, by the sound of it.

So just do your own thing and I do mine.

DISENGAGING!

taai gihk yahn
03-16-2010, 06:58 PM
Nothing will stop you from posting, so why worry about me?
I don't; just pointing out ur imbalance;


There is no need for us to exchange and share, we are just too different, so let it be. I can sense this right from the beginning.
yeah, whatever you say, Kreskin...




"lol, you have no idea what it's like pushing with him...nothing like u describe, it goes infinitely "deeper" than that..." Of course you would say that, because you have not gone beyond him and you never will, by the sound of it.
of course you would say that because your concept of what encompasses root and stability is based on a limited linear construct; as far as "going beyond him", yet again, you are stuck in a limited, linear hierarchical ego-construct and therefore do not understand that there is nothing to "go beyond";


Just do your own thing and I do mine.
again, those CFT's manifesting!


DISENGAGING!
and yet I suspect u'll be back...

Scott R. Brown
03-17-2010, 02:13 AM
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5634&d=1268737454


Master Shi's gongfu is much deeper and you can tell by the stance, he is stable and strong because he can root his body to the ground by aligning it with the gravitational force and that is being vertical and straight (zhongzheng 中正) without sacrificing the curvature of the spine.

I don’t know EJ….it appears to me that you are really reaching here. If the guy on the left is Master Shi, I have so say his rightward lean is making him less stable and is clearly poor alignment. The rightward lean is over stressing his right leg so he is not balancing his energy properly in this particular picture. He is NEITHER “vertical” NOR “straight” as you stated and he is NOT aligned “with the gravitational force” because of his lean; his spine cannot be in proper alignment because of his lean as well. What I don’t understand is how you cannot see this, very clear, rightward lean.

Further: His rear shoulder is too high which creates tension in the shoulder and neck and negatively affects his stability as well! The raised rear shoulder is probably contributing to his rightward lean. Even if he is doing this for a specific reason in this picture or if he is in the process of moving from one position to another you cannot, with accuracy, say his gungfu is deeper based upon this picture.

And lastly, he is clearly NOT in deeper stance and his left wrist is bent at an awkward angle because he is reaching too high into his armpit, which is raising his shoulder and influencing the rightward lean. This is very clearly poor alignment.


Master Sat's gongfu is shallow by comparison because he is not rooted and that is due to his inability to align his body with the gravitational force. The trouble is in his knees and his hip, and as you said he leans a bit too far forward in order to get down.

Concerning Master Hon, again, I do not see what you see. I think your bias is coming through.

Master Hon is clearly more centered in his stance. His weight is even distributed between his legs. It does appear that his head could be tilted a bit more to align his crown with the sky and perhaps his shoulders could also be opened up just a bit more.

It is entirely possible that the forward lean is an illusion due to his belly size and perhaps his rear shoulder is just slightly high as well. The rear wrist however is in better alignment than Master Shi’s and Master Hon’s stance is CLEARLY more stable from the waist down. As a matter of fact when I first saw the picture of Master Hon, it struck me like a gong that his stance is exceptionally stable. He is also clearly in a deeper stance than Master Shi. Just look at the top of the thighs. Master Hon’s thighs are almost parallel to the ground while Master Shi’s are not! Overall Master Hon is much more relaxed than Master Shi. This reflects his emotional stability/balance which is also an indication of deep gung fu.


Master Shi's upper body is open while Master Sat is closed and that is partially caused by the difference in the way the fingers are configured in the front arm and also how the elbow is stretched in the back. Consequently Master Shi's body weight is able to travel downward solidly whereas Master Sat has to hold it up and as a result his qi is blocked in the hip and the knees.

It does appear that Master Shi’s shoulders are more open, but again, this could be an artifact of body structure and/or the clothing worn. Once again, Master Shi’s rear elbow is back so far that it is too high and is causing his rightward lean, and again, I believe this to be due to his wrist reaching abnormally high into the armpit.

I think you are exactly opposite on the hips and knees however. Master Hon is clearly more stable from the hips down. Master Shi’s severe rightward lean negates just about everything correct about his stance.


In the higher level of training "the God is in the details", one gets a feeling he is posing for the picture and can't wait for the photographer to finish so he can get up, whereas Master Shi is just going through his pace leisurely.

Again, I think you are reading into it. It is very clear that Master Hon is extremely stable, relaxed and appears capable of maintaining that stance as long as he likes. I think what you see as tension, I see as stability.

Before I comment on your next post please allow me to make a few qualifying comments about my above post:

1) I do not know either Master Shi or Master Hon. I have not read any of their books, been to a lecture or seminar and I have not seen any video or performance of their Chi Kung.

2) I think it is very dodgy to make the kind of assessment you AND I have made concerning both of these pictures. One picture taken out of context, one moment of time, cannot be used to fairly assess anyone’s level of gungfu. It is actually very immature, and perhaps a bit egocentric/arrogant, to do so! I did so as an academic exercise and to demonstrate how two experienced people can see the same things and come to two different conclusions. In the future I would be very careful, I think, to make such arbitrary comments as yours about anyone because of one snapshot in time. At least if your desire is to have your opinion considered and respected as one experienced and knowledgeable about the topic under discussion.

If that is not your concern, then of course, full steam ahead!:)


That is why I have not answer your question because you are not at the level where I can communicate with you (I know, it sounds like I am boasting) and if you cannot see the gross mistakes your teacher is making, how can you expect me to make you appreciate the subtle details? It is not about whether it is being forthright or not it is about whether I should waste my time.

Taking your above comments as an example it appears that you are also not at a level where others can communicate with you!

You mischaracterized both photos according to your bias and missed very apparent and salient indicators of incorrect posture.

In fact, you cannot see the gross errors in posture of Master Shi.

So, perhaps you are boasting a bit more than your experience can support!:)

Scott R. Brown
03-17-2010, 04:25 AM
As an addendum to my above comments:

Upon more careful examination of Master Hon's Photo, it appears this clothing is billowing due to air flow, this gives the impression of a large belly that may not in fact be present. This billowing appears to proceed up the clothing to the chest which could also account for the appearance of a slightly forward lean and improperly positioned shoulder blades.

All this means, once again, is that a responsible, mature person would want be be cautious when making critical statements about a photo that is but a moment in time!:)

extrajoseph
03-17-2010, 12:30 PM
Hi Scott,

There is no point in counter arguments because it will only be words (hot air), I would put my money on Master Shi if the two ever decided to "strength test" each other in this posture, ("strength test" is not push hands, it is just static extension of force onto each other in this fixed posture) but of course it will never happen, so we'd just go away with our own way of seeing, but at least now we have two alternatives to think about. May be others will join in and have their own take, all the better, the exercise stimulates us how to see the hidden structures and it is also a rough indicator of our experience, and perhaps our bias.

Scott R. Brown
03-17-2010, 08:36 PM
Well EJ the thing is you made claims you cannot support. If you meant that you believe Master Shi would do better in a contest you could have said so in a much more effective manner rather than incorrectly assess two photos that are a moment in time.

You clearly saw what you wanted to see, and NOT what was there and do not seem to realize that both of our assessments are unfair to the two men in the photos.

Life is dynamic! It is in constant flux. There is no such thing as the perfect stance or form. Any sense or idea of perfection is an affectation.

Until you realize this for yourself your 40 years of experience doesn't amount to as much as you believe it does!

extrajoseph
03-18-2010, 04:43 AM
Hi Scott,

There is no perfect stance or form but there is a concept called "wuwei' and "youwei", and it depends on you which path you want to follow.

I agree with you, my 40 years of experience doesn't amount to much, except it taught me "wuwei" is the way to go, but again I could be wrong and wasted my 40 years.

What about you?

Don't worry if you don't understand what I am talking about, they are just words that came to my head reading your post.

PS: As for being unfair to both masters, we are both doing it but they are just our opinions, nothing more. Both of these masters, if they are worth their salt, would not worry about what we have said about them at all, they would just have a smile on their face, and go on with their practice.

CFT
03-18-2010, 05:03 AM
again, those CFT's manifesting!Oy oy! I'm manifesting myself here.

Scott is right in that one shouldn't take an absolute view of things from a static photo, especially when both are wearing baggy/flappy cloths that are obscuring a proper view of their posture.

extrajoseph
03-18-2010, 05:06 AM
Hi CFT,

It is not an absolute view, it is just two man' opinions about a couple of photos, but it helps to make us think. That is all.

Stop manifesting! :eek::D

CFT
03-18-2010, 05:23 AM
Alright. I just hate bickering.

I don't practice qigong so I don't appreciate why holding a couple of fingers together will make a difference ...

I "liked the look" of Master Shi's stance and the tilt of his head. Questioned why the shoulders aren't level, which implies a degree of lean.

Master Hon looked more centred/upright, but his head looks slightly more tilted back. The picture is taken at a different elevation, and it looks like he is sitting in a narrower yet deeper stance so looks more awkward.

Since this is all about qigong rather than martial application I can't see why anything is questionable. Anyway, just an "aesthetic" critique which means absolutely nothing, but still interested in the dialogue.

extrajoseph
03-18-2010, 06:42 AM
Hi CFT,

I was going to say something funny, but never mind. Good that you join in.

Scott R. Brown
03-18-2010, 07:58 AM
Hi Scott,

There is no perfect stance or form but there is a concept called "wuwei' and "youwei", and it depends on you which path you want to follow.

I agree with you, my 40 years of experience doesn't amount to much, except it taught me "wuwei" is the way to go, but again I could be wrong and wasted my 40 years.

What about you?

Well....that is my underlying point I guess, wu wei is the way to go! While I agree that there is a certain basic form that it is a benefit to follow, I believe one's inner, mental, state is the true determining factor, NOT a person's physical performance, within reason.

I have seen forms that are poorly performed in their execution, but done with an inner spirit that has demonstrated the inherent uselessness of blindly adhering too strictly to form. I have also seen precise executions of form that are inherently empty from a "spirit of the form" sense.

Let's say that presentation and presence is WAY more important than precise execution. I will take the spirit over performance any day of the week and I believe that demonstrates a comprehensive understanding and application of the principle of wu wei

The above, and don't make lasting judgments based upon a photo that is nothing but a snap shot of a moment in time. Photos cannot accurately capture a person's character or their ability to move smoothly. It is a shadow of an appearance at best!

taai gihk yahn
03-18-2010, 08:01 AM
[

I don't practice qigong so I don't appreciate why holding a couple of fingers together will make a difference ...
well, it's a good question, and part of why I asked the question in the first place!

why would holding a couple of fingers make a difference, indeed?

there are two ways of looking at it, in general: specific to the individual and in a general sense;

in regards to the individual, we have seen one example here where extrajoseph tried the "experiment" and found that his "qi" was blocked (whatever that may mean, of course); alternately, in my personal experience, I have found that when I make the connection between the fingers, I feel that it increases the subjective sense of connection between the outstretched hand and the rear hand which is touching the Lung source point; as such, when I "draw" back a bit more on the rear hand, I feel the balance of tension from one side to another increase (when I say tension I mean in the sense of pulling a rubber band), getting more of a "stretch" (this is a bit of an oversimplification, but just want to keep it simple); when I separate the fingers of the lead hand, I don't feel that balanced tension go beyond the wrist of the lead hand, and therefore I do not feel the overall connection from side to side in the same way (specifically via Lung & Large Intestine sinews); so, we have two individuals with significant qigong experience having two different takes on it;

now, the question is, who is right and who is wrong? in other words, can one draw a general conclusion in terms of which way is intrinsically better? according to extraJ, it seems, because he felt his "qi" blocked by connecting the fingers, doing it that way is incorrect (of course, he may be right about that, but then he would need to also present some sort of evidence to support his claim - for example, utilizing TCM / meridian / yi jing or some similar "theory" to support why the fingers ought not to connect); my perspective is that while I prefer doing it with the fingers closed, I don't think it is necessarily right as opposed to not connecting the fingers - it's just different, in that one will get different results; again, I feel what I feel to be efficacious, in terms of the effect I have found to be best for myself;


Both of these masters, if they are worth their salt, would not worry about what we have said about them at all, they would just have a smile on their face, and go on with their practice.
I agree! that is, IMPE, the true measure of the depth of anyone's practice; judging relative capacity from a photograph is, as I originally pointed out and which Scott then enlarged upon, a dicey business at best; indeed, when I posted the picture of Sat, it was not to demonstrate relative superiority, it was to illustrate a differential in terms of the finger position - the whole idea of comparing photos and trying to emulate the postures accordingly is something I personally would not advocate, nor would comparing whose kung fu is deeper, etc.; now, I have known Sat for 15 years, and I personally have not doubts about the authenticity and correctness of his practice, because of how it manifests in terms of his teachings, his health, his relationship with family, etc; if indeed he regularly made "gross mistakes" in his qigong practice, his life would reflect that, which it does not; can I prove this? of course not, but it is my experience, which appears to be verified by others who have known him even longer than I and are my seniors in the school; so if I take issue w/extraJ's assessment, it is based on a variety of factors, not just the "evidence" of one photograph (for example, I have seen Sat respond with "a smile on his face and just go about his practice" when he has been directly challenged by others); that being said, at the same time I would not say that he looks better than Master Shi either - Master Shi appears to be coming from a different tradition / perspective, but I cannot imagine that if he were "incorrect" in his own practice that he would be considered as highly as he doubtlessly is by those who study with him;
now, I know that extraJ is of the opinion that my level is so inferior to his that productive communication with me on this topic is not possible - so I don't expect that he will agree with my perspective here, which is fine, of course; however, in the interests of maintaining civil discourse and keeping this thread on topic, I hope that he will at least refrain from referring to me as a "moron", or implying that I am a charlatan because I refer to acupuncture charts to qualify my perspective, or accusing me of trying to somehow "trick" or "ambush" him as he did when I asked him for some clarification of his original comment to me; perhaps he would even reconsider his previous stance and participate in the discussion if he finds it productive to do so...

Scott R. Brown
03-18-2010, 08:38 AM
Well I WAS going to refer to you as a moron myself...but due to unforeseen circumstances, the fact you actually remembered to mention me by name in your post this time, I will have to refrain from such a crass appellation (NOT appaloosa:p) at this time!:):p;):mad::rolleyes::cool:

extrajoseph
03-18-2010, 09:06 AM
OK, from now on I will refrain from calling you a moron, Richard Head.:):mad::p:o:confused::rolleyes:;):(:eek::cool ::D

taai gihk yahn
03-18-2010, 09:14 AM
OK, from now on I will refrain from calling you a moron, Richard Head.:):mad::p:o:confused::rolleyes:;):(:eek::cool ::D

so I address you respectfully and try (yet again) to generate a productive discussion, and your response is to post something immature and sarcastic;

got it;

extrajoseph
03-18-2010, 09:28 AM
Well I WAS going to refer to you as a moron myself...but due to unforeseen circumstances, the fact you actually remembered to mention me by name in your post this time, I will have to refrain from such a crass appellation (NOT appaloosa:p) at this time!:):p;):mad::rolleyes::cool:

Did you hear that? We need a productive discussion, so please give him one, Mr Brown because I am not capable of taking **** seriously.

kfson
03-18-2010, 09:40 AM
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/86284024.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=2AC75F6FAA20674CC47ADD671D90E16178C15F258DD58AB9 0BFF9D7FAAD47233

taai gihk yahn
03-18-2010, 10:05 AM
Did you hear that? We need a productive discussion, so please give him one, Mr Brown because I am not capable of taking **** seriously.

if u r using Scott's response as a justification for ur own, then u might want to consider that Scott and I have an established and positive relationship here on the forum, and as such engage in this sort of "insulting" banter regularly secure in the knowledge that we r just kidding around; you and I, OTOH, have had a rather contentious interaction to date, so if u r intending to do the same thing, then don't be surprised if I don't take it in quite the same way; considering that it was you first addressed me in a rather brusk manner, you will understand if I am not given to presuming light-heartedness on ur part at this point;
anyway, I have attempted a rapprochement - if u wish to continue to post in an adversarial manner, that's ur issue, not mine; OTOH, if u r truly interested in maintaining a qualitative discussion here, that would be welcome;

taai gihk yahn
03-18-2010, 10:05 AM
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/86284024.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=2AC75F6FAA20674CC47ADD671D90E16178C15F258DD58AB9 0BFF9D7FAAD47233

LOL!

tell me about it...

extrajoseph
03-18-2010, 10:42 AM
Tell me about it.....some people just cannot take a no for an answer, LOL.

taai gihk yahn
03-18-2010, 10:59 AM
Tell me about it.....some people just cannot take a no for an answer, LOL.

if you mean as in you still have no interest in interacting, then that's fine; best wishes to you;

Scott R. Brown
03-18-2010, 04:19 PM
if u r using Scott's response as a justification for ur own, then u might want to consider that Scott and I have an established and positive relationship here on the forum, and as such engage in this sort of "insulting" banter regularly secure in the knowledge that we r just kidding around; you and I, OTOH, have had a rather contentious interaction to date, so if u r intending to do the same thing, then don't be surprised if I don't take it in quite the same way; considering that it was you first addressed me in a rather brusk manner, you will understand if I am not given to presuming light-heartedness on ur part at this point;
anyway, I have attempted a rapprochement - if u wish to continue to post in an adversarial manner, that's ur issue, not mine; OTOH, if u r truly interested in maintaining a qualitative discussion here, that would be welcome;

Well it does help that you flatter me by repeatedly mentioning me by NAME in your posts in order to ameliorate my wrath and homicidal tendencies !

With my name appearing TWICE in one post I am down right purrrrrrring with delight.:D

Would you please scratch me behind the ears while you are at it!!:)

...and bring me a dish of milk too!:p

extrajoseph
03-19-2010, 07:17 AM
Are you sure you just want a dish of milk after he scratched you behind the ears? What do you mean while he is at "it"? Is he the Lord of the Sword? :eek::D:cool:

Scott R. Brown
03-19-2010, 07:42 AM
Are you sure you just want a dish of milk after he scratched you behind the ears? What do you mean while he is at "it"? Is he the Lord of the Sword? :eek::D:cool:

Before you start fantasizing too much let me be very clear with you:

WE ARE NOT GAY!!! PLEASE GO TROLLING FOR YOUR COMPANIONS ON ANOTHER WEBSITE!!!

You would have to go back a number of years to be able to follow our very inside jokes!!

extrajoseph
03-19-2010, 08:31 AM
I wasn't thinking you two are gay, I was thinking you two must be married, it sounded so intimate!

Scott R. Brown
03-19-2010, 08:34 AM
LOL!! You never had a good buddy?

kfson
03-19-2010, 08:47 AM
http://www.towleroad.com/images/2007/04/06/buhner_butt.jpg

taai gihk yahn
03-19-2010, 09:04 AM
Before you start fantasizing too much let me be very clear with you:

[B]WE ARE NOT GAY!!!
well speak for yourself, but I'm finding myself in a particularly jovial and ebuliant mood today, old fruit!

Scott R. Brown
03-19-2010, 09:06 AM
well speak for yourself, but I'm finding myself in a particularly jovial and ebuliant mood today, old fruit!

Zipidee doo dah......zipidee aaaaaaaaaay.......my oh my aren't you feeling GAY!!!!:D

Scott R. Brown
03-19-2010, 09:10 AM
P.S. Who YOU calling OLD!!!!!!!:mad:

extrajoseph
03-19-2010, 10:12 AM
LOL!! You never had a good buddy?

Well, not THAT good. I am happy for you two, at least your partner is more honest.

Scott R. Brown
03-19-2010, 08:15 PM
Your fantasies are getting out of control again!:eek:

extrajoseph
03-20-2010, 12:44 AM
I came, I saw, I smiled.
He came, he saw, he yelled.
You came, you saw, you came.

taai gihk yahn
03-20-2010, 11:30 AM
I came, I saw, I smiled.
He came, he saw, he yelled.
You came, you saw, you came.

I think that he was looking for another (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56766) thread...

extrajoseph
03-20-2010, 12:47 PM
Yes, knowing Scott, he could be. :eek: :D

extrajoseph
03-20-2010, 12:57 PM
On the other hand, if you didn't yell, he might not have come. :eek: :D

Scott R. Brown
03-20-2010, 01:14 PM
On the other hand, if you didn't yell, he might not have come. :eek: :D

You have a hard time distinguishing between reality and your h0m0-erotic fantasies!:eek:

extrajoseph
03-20-2010, 01:18 PM
I think you and your partner have a hard time distinguishing between nuances. :cool:

Sal Canzonieri
03-28-2010, 11:06 AM
As moderator I let it go on because people seem to like being silly, but then it gets to the point of annoyance and name calling etc.

SO, lets have some self restraint, and not have to ban people, by not calling others morons and so on and so on.

Thanks!

David Jamieson
04-07-2010, 01:55 PM
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5634&d=1268737454




this is yi jin jing isn't it? not ba duan jin. or is this present in both versions of your guys'?

extrajoseph
04-07-2010, 02:19 PM
It is Baduanjin and not Yijinjing.

taai gihk yahn
04-07-2010, 02:32 PM
this is yi jin jing isn't it? not ba duan jin. or is this present in both versions of your guys'?

for us (meaning the guy on the right's school), it is part of yijinjing (http://users.erols.com/dantao/dantao3.html);

Sal Canzonieri
04-07-2010, 02:38 PM
It's in both in many versions.

Scott R. Brown
04-07-2010, 02:39 PM
I call it squatting in preparation for taking a dump......but that's just me!:rolleyes:

taai gihk yahn
04-07-2010, 02:44 PM
It's in both in many versions.
yes, this is my understanding of it - just since we don't do a buduanjin per se, for us it is exclusively yijinjing (as apparently for others her it is the inverse); ultimately, doesn't really matter, of course



I call it squatting in preparation for taking a dump......but that's just me!:rolleyes:

STOP GIVING AWAY SECRETS!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Scott R. Brown
04-07-2010, 02:52 PM
STOP GIVING AWAY SECRETS!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Are you following me?????:confused:

I AM SUPPOSED TO BE FOLLOWING YOU!!!!!:eek:

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 01:37 AM
Traditional Baduanjin and Yijinjing have different postures as showed in the attached diagram. Modern practitioners tend to mix them up, not knowing their origin and history.

charlyws
04-08-2010, 02:09 AM
i think both of them has similar posture but different in internal training..

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 03:00 AM
Actually it is the opposite for me - they have similar internal training with different external postures.

Eugene
04-08-2010, 04:06 AM
extrajoseph
Actually it is the opposite for me - they have similar internal training with different external postures

charlyws
i think both of them has similar posture but different in internal training..

This is very fascinating guys :)

It shows me that even the second posture of Baduanjin can have such an outcome, lucky i didnt ask about all 8.

I skipped the warrior stance and do atleast a good mabu with a good balance, and two sword fingers.

The only thing i have seen about Ji Jin Jing is Shi De Jian doing it.

David Jamieson
04-08-2010, 05:21 AM
It's in both in many versions.

This is interesting and it reveals something about the postures overall I think.

Could it be that there is an older arrangement that is lost? Or a greater arrangement that is unknown?

In yi jin jing, we do pull the celestial bow (or whatever you want to call that posture :) ) but not in bad duan jin.

I personally find that many sil lum qigong in particular are uncannily similar in execution and in benefit.

interesting.

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 07:06 AM
Baduanjin was first recorded in the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1127), even the famous scholar Zhuxi (1130-1200) wrote about it in one of his writings, whereas Yijinjing as we know them today, was first illustrated in Qing Dynasty about 1820, although it claimed to have an origin with Damo, so there are almost 700 years of difference in time, if one is to be similar to another, then we would know who does the copying.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/八段锦
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/易筋經

charlyws
04-08-2010, 07:20 AM
extrajoseph
Actually it is the opposite for me - they have similar internal training with different external postures

charlyws
i think both of them has similar posture but different in internal training..

This is very fascinating guys :)

It shows me that even the second posture of Baduanjin can have such an outcome, lucky i didnt ask about all 8.

I skipped the warrior stance and do atleast a good mabu with a good balance, and two sword fingers.

The only thing i have seen about Ji Jin Jing is Shi De Jian doing it.


yup, many opinions on it eugene. for me (maybe it could be wrong), Yi jin Jing is develop some tendon changing but not to train inner power. and Baduanjin is to develop inner power which more like wushu qigong.

David Jamieson
04-08-2010, 07:20 AM
Baduanjin was first recorded in the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1127), even the famous scholar Zhuxi (1130-1200) wrote about it in one of his writings, whereas Yijinjing as we know them today, was first illustrated in Qing Dynasty about 1820, although it claimed to have an origin with Damo, so there are almost 700 years of difference in time, if one is to be similar to another, then we would know who does the copying.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/八段锦
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/易筋經

history and the historical record of these things is shaky even at the best of times.
When we are talking about english translations, even more so.

It would be really nice to see something definitive come from archaeological and anthropological scientific study and fact finding instead of relying on the oral traditions of martial artists which have a tendency to turn out wrong, or contrary to the ideas of another.

this is one of the major problems with tcma in general is the uncertainty regarding these things and the lack of questioning by the students and practitioners about what these exercises do.

everyone does them differently, with different intention, different energy and different applications of forces within the exercises.

even the empty shapes cannot be ascertained to be this or that, but rather it is the way to simply learn them and do them.

So for me, it's like an x file, except I don't want to "believe" I want to "know". :)

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 07:44 AM
history and the historical record of these things is
So for me, it's like an x file, except I don't want to "believe" I want to "know". :)

If you want to know, then train in both of them and over time your body will give you the answer, remember: things tended to go from the more simple to the more complex, the more natural to the more artificial, over time.


I personally find that many sil lum qigong in particular are uncannily similar in execution and in benefit.

One good example is the Choy Lee Fut Luohan 18 Hands Qigong, which has its origin in the Five Animals Frolic and the Yijinjing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUnTFj9VIWM&feature=related

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 07:48 AM
yup, many opinions on it eugene. for me (maybe it could be wrong), Yi jin Jing is develop some tendon changing but not to train inner power. and Baduanjin is to develop inner power which more like wushu qigong.

It is difficult to develop tendon changing without also to train inner power because the extension is done from the inside and not from being pulled from the outside.

charlyws
04-08-2010, 08:24 AM
It is difficult to develop tendon changing without also to train inner power because the extension is done from the inside and not from being pulled from the outside.

the inner power in here is like more that Qi. because based from what i know baduanjin is to develop qigong (wushu qigong).

although yi jin jing can develop inner power too, but the detail is different.

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 09:16 AM
How different, may I ask?

charlyws
04-08-2010, 09:37 AM
About the power itself.

Yi Jin JIng power is look like external power who used a lot of tendon not mass muscle. so when the impact hits body it will be gone through the inside muscle.

And Baduanjin is from wushu qigong. if it hit somebody(without intention where the power must be), it will be directed to the heart. When baduanjin is hit someone, it less more effort compare to the yi jinjing.

but i heard that some style like shaolin have both of them.

actually i'm not yi jin jing practioners. and still very newbie for baduanjin and i couldnt describe the detail very well. based what i know is because i already feel the impact from both of them.

maybe i will looked up for the detail from them :)

extrajoseph
04-08-2010, 06:55 PM
Yeah, maybe you should.

Hendrik
04-09-2010, 11:59 AM
1, one must watched out for what one is doing. the best is get an authentic sifu otherwise it might not be benefit or even damaging.


2, These two set of training are different.

for example
Internally based on Qi management. The Yijinjing starts the training with lung Medirian. While the Baduanjin starts by working with the tripple heat.


3, due to the above; knowing the exact medirians and working sequence is a must to get the greatest benifit while train in the particular set, thus one needs someone who really have experience and attainment to guide one. It is certainly is not just a posture.




Dont believe me, try the following experimens.

using the second posture of the Baduanjin,
1, try it with seperate your two fingers when you did the sword fingers and see how the pull feel different.

2 erect the thump of the sword finger side and see how it influence the weight of the arm and breathing.

both of the above are small differences in physical which will cause big diferrences in physical and result of the training. This is because they activate different medirians.

NOTE:
I purposely place the above to variation to let you feel the difference and how is different medirians activated.

Do not train it this way. I intend to lead you to know there are lots of stuffs in it but dont want to screw you on your practice. knowing something like that is just a begining. In the old time, one will be guide by the sifu to feel all these feeling to align one's training so that one knows the proper handling.

Get a sifu of Baduanjin to coach you so you are beneit. dont play smart.



4, as for the stance, that also is an issue. depend on what one's intention. So, different in external shape, internal medirians, and the sequence of them make a different in long term training. Not to mention the handling, such as soft, how soft....etc.

These stuffs exist and only those who really knows know it. otherwise, practicing it will give only some exercise benefit but cant go deep into the Qi and internal organs.


Do not mix and match as you like it or applied force or have tensing feeling or stop breathing....etc. That cause problem.





extrajoseph
Actually it is the opposite for me - they have similar internal training with different external postures

charlyws
i think both of them has similar posture but different in internal training..

This is very fascinating guys :)

It shows me that even the second posture of Baduanjin can have such an outcome, lucky i didnt ask about all 8.

I skipped the warrior stance and do atleast a good mabu with a good balance, and two sword fingers.

The only thing i have seen about Ji Jin Jing is Shi De Jian doing it.

Hendrik
04-09-2010, 08:40 PM
Chinese PE department version
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI1Nzk1MzI4.html

Eugene
04-10-2010, 02:59 PM
Thx Hendrik for that big reply,

Mostly i search and practice for what is most correct and best for the body.
It is even a harder seach with so many opposite meanings and toughts but its also funny as I experienced today again.
almost a war during tai chi today about 2 females arguing about a bag on a cycle, one wants it to be like that, and the other like hers.
Then they were on about the back leg in a mabu stance , for one the leg must be stretched and for the other bend, then one says who is more male like, that Tai Chi is for selfdefense, and the other more feminen thats Tai Chi is for health purpose only. Its quit confusing. And the strong female does tai chi as like she fights and stamps the rocks out the street, and the feminen female dances like a feather so light during the Tai Chi sets.

Thats is from both also inspirational, and both look real nice in the flow.

It seems that there in some ways there 1000 ways of 1 way.

I have spoken today with a women that came to watch our group, she gives baduanjin. I spoke with her about the second stance , and she does it also way different again, but am meet her pritty soon :) A nice coincidence

btw ...
Could it be that ones personality in the end shines thru Baduanjin, Shaolin or Tai Chi, and because of this that a teacher teaches 100 studens the same set, and it will have 100 different ways because of 100 different indivuduals ?

I didnt have time yet to watch the video btw

Peace

Hendrik
04-10-2010, 03:43 PM
If one practice Baduanjin, then doing the first post one must be able to balance the tripple heat/Triple Burners. The shape, the stance, the breathing, the intention.... needs to contribute to attaining balance the tripple heat. That is the purpose of training. and expectation needed to be attain.



Get a real sifu who knows, Qigong is not some philosophy or logical theories that one can learn from thinking or reading. There are too many details which is impossible to know without a coach.
videos, talk, discussion.... means nothing to the subject without knowing the purpose and attainment of the expectation.

Keep it simple, and focus on the purpose and expectation.

IE: this is the purpose, this is the process of doing it. this is what one will experience if the practice is proper, and this is the attainment of the expectation. and focus on nothing else.




For the second posture.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI1Nzk1MzI4.html

19.24/59.44 shows you what is correct body instruction clearly. EI the thump...ect
it also shows what is the medirians involve and thus the stance which is proper to support this practice.

to have a beneficial training of the second posture , these must be known.






Thx Hendrik for that big reply,

Mostly i search and practice for what is most correct and best for the body.
It is even a harder seach with so many opposite meanings and toughts but its also funny as I experienced today again.
almost a war during tai chi today a......

Peace

David Jamieson
04-12-2010, 08:26 AM
If you want to know, then train in both of them and over time your body will give you the answer, remember: things tended to go from the more simple to the more complex, the more natural to the more artificial, over time.



One good example is the Choy Lee Fut Luohan 18 Hands Qigong, which has its origin in the Five Animals Frolic and the Yijinjing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUnTFj9VIWM&feature=related

I do train in both of them and have done so for some 16 years or so now. :) I also train Sil Lum Nei Gong and various other qigong which are separate and apart from structered "sets" of gongs such as yi jin jing or ba daun jin are.

I can say this, one school does not prcatice the same as the next.

essence may remain, but all structure is different from school to school.

Your chi kung is like "x's" chi kung because ultimately both or your works have come from the same source. My gongs look like my other brothers gongs and like some other unrelated peoples, but not exactly the same.

there are differences and subtle nuances that change from school to school, teacher to teacher and all the various levels of understanding.

if there is any water that is not clear in the ocean of shaolin kungfu, it is the chi kungs.

taai gihk yahn
04-12-2010, 10:22 AM
I can say this, one school does not prcatice the same as the next.
this is about the only constant; some of the qiogng I do looks very much like many other approaches; and then there are some where I have never seen anything else even remotely similar;

extrajoseph
04-12-2010, 11:25 AM
Yes, there are many different expressions (structures) of the same essence, whether baduanjin or yijinjing, shaolin or wudang, after all we have the same body structures and the same universal laws. You say it is different but I say it is the same and we are both right.

mig
07-03-2011, 02:04 PM
Any good source both written and video someone can recommend? Your help will be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mig

tiaji1983
07-03-2011, 06:25 PM
there are many styles and forms of baduanjin out there. do you study a specific style?

tiaji1983
07-03-2011, 08:16 PM
8 Brocades

1. Reach For Heaven- To adjust the triple points

2. Shoot The Birds- To adjust the arms and shoulders

3. Touch Heaven and Earth- To adjust stomach and spleen

4. Look at the Heels- To heal the internal injury

5. Shake Head and Tail- To get rid of heart fire

6. Touch Toes- To strengthen kidneys and waist

7. Anger the Eyes and Punch- To increase power

8. Lift the Heels- To prevent all disease

mig
07-04-2011, 09:22 AM
there are many styles and forms of baduanjin out there. do you study a specific style?

No particular style, just need references and a goo manual. They all coincide n just a book n dvd from mainland n additional readings from the web. Any references will be much appreciated thax

tiaji1983
07-04-2011, 01:27 PM
Im not a huge fan, but Dr Yang Jwing Ming likes to translate manuals, he has some books and DVDs on Baduanjin you can buy. you can also find free videos on youtube. I havent found any exactly like the way I do it, but the poem above gives you the essence of the movements. you can find Dr Yang's stuff at www.ymaa.com

taai gihk yahn
07-04-2011, 01:34 PM
Im not a huge fan, but Dr Yang Jwing Ming likes to translate manuals,

bingo...give the man a cigar

tiaji1983
07-04-2011, 01:47 PM
Have you ever read his book Embryonic Breathing? That was the most confusing useless book I ever read. He translates every text that contradicts each other and groups them together, then the explanation on how to do it he gives is not the quickest, or best way to do it. As far as I know it may even be wrong. Then I hear from one of his students, that is part of thier core training. I have to give the man respect for his little money factory he built, but I dont think he has is the most influential man for Martial Arts like he was awarded. He holds back secrets, and he changed his forms. Still, I cant talk down on his skill because I never met him and his fajing looks impressive on video. But I can comment on his books as I have read them. :D

mig
07-04-2011, 03:17 PM
bingo...give the man a cigar

A cuban cigar for that matter. I would agree about Mr Yang's books but at least is more informative than others.

tiaji1983
07-04-2011, 03:20 PM
I would also agree. But they can also be confusing at times.

CYMac
08-05-2012, 07:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfUXBVUvxKY&feature=relmfu

I figured the order of doing it this way make more sense. If you got your insights, feel free to share as well. I re-arranged it according to the post-heaven bagwa and now it is flowing more in a logical way. After trying to do it the common way, it feels just like a workout. But after my modification, you get a lot of chi-feelings (sensations and stuff) while boiling up sweat quickly. The health benefit tested is more vivid as well. With the version I do, I get more energized and can relieve body pain and aches much faster.

Hanak
03-18-2013, 04:27 AM
If it come's to dvd stuff ect to learn at home. My mind say very fast. its very difficult or you use it for a small reminder. But then also how many forms are actually the same.
Its allways some different from teacher to teacher.

But I have the Bundle of Shifu Yan Lei about Qi Qong 8 treasures ba duan jin.

First I had the book, then seen a new dvd and buy this to, just to check how he does it ect.

Wel those 2 things together, book and dvd are really really GREAT.

He explains you in the dvd how to do it, and give some details that are not in the book and vice versa.

I gues its the first BOOK/DVD that I really can say, here you can learn a lot from.

http://www.shifuyanlei.co.uk/images/eight-treasures-bundle.jpg

GeneChing
01-10-2014, 08:10 AM
Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's Simple Qigong Exercises for Health autographed by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/about/sweepstakes-simple-qigong-exercises.php)! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 01/23/14. Good luck everyone!

David Jamieson
01-17-2014, 06:42 AM
The 8 pieces of brocade that I practice is in 12 parts.

I believe this is in reference to the 12 meridians and the 8 extraordinary meridians as opposed to the sections of exercise.
It is a daoyin/dhayana/ch'an/zen thing after all and is not martial. Especially telling is the natal fists part which is clearly Taoist influence on Buddhist synthesis of spiritual liberation exercises with martial art as pointed out in Meir Shahars revelatory book on the matter.

GeneChing
01-27-2014, 11:29 AM
See our Autographed Simple Qigong Exercises for Health by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming winners thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67207-Autographed-Simple-Qigong-Exercises-for-Health-by-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming-winners).

YMAA_com
02-26-2014, 12:05 PM
Hi,

I have a couple comments about Exercise #2 of the Eight Brocades, and my annual defense of Dr. Yang against various comments above. Im David Silver, a student of Dr. Yang since 2000, Qigong Instructor since 2006, and I work at YMAA Publishing.

With Left and Right Bend the Bow, all the variations are valid. The original poetry (attributed to Marshall Yue Fei) used to pass the Ba Duan Jin down for the past 1,000 years is fairly vague and esoteric, and focuses more on the result than the method.

The image of the monk shifting his weight heavily to one side makes sense for an external style like Shaolin kung fu. Usually it is practiced in ma bu with weight in the center, either high or low, depending if you are a kung fu bad ass who has trained for years, or a higher stance for someone just learning and building the strength of their legs. Both are "correct".

As for the arms...You can practice an exercise like #2 as soft-style, or hard-style, depending upon your goals, health, fitness, etc. You often see people practice with the "one finger pointing to heaven". That position creates tension at the wrist, deliberately stagnating Qi in the arms and developing the sinews, strength, etc. That's hard qigong. But, you can also practice it with the "secret sword" hand form, as you see in one pic, and that allows it to be more of a soft qigong practice.

My classes focus on soft qigong, because most people in my community come to class for their health, to relax, to de-stress. In my opinion, people will benefit more with exercise #2 as a soft qigong, because this exercise lends itself perfectly for teaching people how to lead their Qi, even if they don't understand the theory or know anything about the topic. Since the "Yi leads the Qi" and the intention (Yi) of this exercise is to visualize shooting a hawk in the distance, people can develop skill in leading Qi and develop the channels in the arms with the open "secret sword" hand form. Just an observation.

Also on this topic in this thread: Dr. Yang translates the classics for those of us who don't read much Chinese, so that we have access to the origin of the form, rather than only a modern version. But, he also practices Qigong and teaches six days per week, for the past 30 years, and speaks from personal experience, and that of his students. The inference with the above comment is that he merely translates without substance, and which is just wrong.

Related, from above: I read Embryonic Breathing several times, and did not find it confusing and did not see much conflict between the translations. Cross referencing the classics from various types of practitioners was interesting. I agree there was probably too much redundancy, but he wanted to include every available reference to the topic. And, he did include a summary of what he thought is the best way to practice afterward, look again. It was not long ago, like early 90s, when many people in the martial arts community did not believe there was such a practice, and he had to argue the point repeatedly until he was able to gather the recently-released documents proving that Embryonic breathing is a core part of internal training in both Buddhism/Daoism.

In his experience of translating rare documents, they often only discuss one aspect of the practice, and leave the reader still searching for answers. So, every one of his books is designed as a stand alone document, to preserve the info on the topic comprehensively. He is not worried if you have to read the history of qigong twice in two books. He is concerned that someone trying to learn qigong 100 years from now gets the answers from one book.

And, the $: You could read my previous post, or the one from Dr. Yang's son Nicholas, on this forum about this topic, but I'll paraphrase here. Dr. Yang has worked very hard building YMAA since 1982 in his garage to an association of schools around the world. He teaches almost every day of his life, often for 8 - 10 hours. The YMAA Retreat Center project is an intensive training program where select students can train for 5 - 10 years. In the beginning, we announced it to the world and projected it would cost millions of dollars of the course of the 10 years to operate the buildings, feed everyone, insurance, etc. We have received some donations for it, but 80 - 90% of all the expenses for this has come from Dr. Yang's retirement funds. He is not rich or making money from his schools, or from the Retreat Center. He gets paid when he teaches, like anyone else, and makes enough to get by, but you are incorrect in assuming he has a 'money making factory.' It is a labor of love, done to preserve and promote the arts. We hoped to inspire more people to get excited again about traditional-style training, where money is taken OUT of the equation between teacher and student in actuality.

And yes, his forms change. The art is alive. He keeps getting better with practice, like anyone else.

Thanks!

GeneChing
09-14-2016, 08:11 AM
This article looks interesting but you have to be a member to access it and there's no abstract.


Effect of Health Qigong Baduanjin on Fall Prevention in Individuals with Parkinson's Disease (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jgs.14438/full)
Authors
Chunmei Xiao MEd,
Yongchang Zhuang MEd,
Yong Kang MEd
First published: 14 September 2016Full publication history
DOI: 10.1111/jgs.14438

GeneChing
06-19-2019, 07:05 AM
Celebrity
Ng Man Tat practices qigong for health (https://sg.style.yahoo.com/ng-man-tat-practices-qigong-072300238.html)
From Cinema Online Exclusively for Yahoo Newsroom
Heidi Hsia
17 June 2019

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/EiSBJpdzcKWRGu2hBXlybg--~A/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAw/https://media.zenfs.com/en/ybrand.cinema.com.my/53ee182b09f8eed258d220b8453d3b25

17 Jun – Veteran actor Ng Man Tat recently made a rare appearance at a movie premiere, looking much healthier than he was in previous year.

As reported on Mingpao, the actor, who was all smiles as he spoke to the media about his health situation, revealed that he has been practicing Baduanjin - the most common form of Chinese qigong exercises - to improve his health.

"I have also quit smoking and drinking because of my heart disease and high blood pressure," he added.

Ng also admitted that ever since the previous struggle with heart infection in 2015, he made sure not to push himself too much when it comes to work, choosing easier projects than tough ones.

"It's also hot nowadays, so I am better off just doing commercials. Those are more convenient," he said.

Aside from that, the actor revealed that he will be making a guest appearance on Lee Lik Chi's upcoming period film.

"Since it was a favour asked by a good pal, I would feel bad if I say no," he added.

THREADS
Celebrities studying qigong (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68281-Celebrities-studying-qigong)
Baduanjin (8-section brocade) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))

GeneChing
08-12-2019, 09:26 AM
COMMUNITY//August 11, 2019
Eight Pieces of Brocade (https://thriveglobal.com/stories/eight-pieces-of-brocade/)
A Remarkably Effective New Form of Instruction Made Possible by Cutting Edge Speech Technology
By Emanate Presence, Healing Advocate

https://content.thriveglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/82EEE19E-01E4-47F0-9D3C-26FDCC531016.jpeg
Reflections in the waters below the castle of Lenzen, Germany. The view from where I have practiced Qigong.

Qigong is the increase and improvement of the quantity, quality and flow of Chi energy in the body. Qigong has a history of some 4,000 years in China. About 1,000 years ago, the leader of the entire Chinese army – a general in his thirties – developed the ‘Eight Pieces of Brocade’ as a set of Qigong movements to support his troops in their defense against a Mongolian invasion. He created a sitting set for wounded soldiers who could not stand and a standing set for those who could. ‘Eight Pieces of Brocade’ has had 1,000 years of refinement and is well known in China as an excellent practice for health and well-being.

What I call ‘Brocades’ is a remarkably effective, new form of instruction for learning and practicing Qigong movements in precise detail, made possible by cutting-edge voice synthesis technology. It is based on the video course instruction by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming.

Also known as ‘Brocades Qigong Coach’, my creation is intended to be heard as an audio while following the voice prompts to make the Qigong movements. Hearing voice prompts, without having to watch a person, enables one to feel the Chi energy more deeply. It is helpful to follow precise prompts and not have to count repetitions while moving Chi with the mind and coordinating the body. When practicing in a public area, the prompts can also be very useful as a focal point for maintaining concentration.

‘Brocades’ is not first meant to be viewed as a video, yet for someone new to the practice of Qigong the scrolling text could be useful. Please note that the mis-spellings in the text are deliberate, to achieve the correct pronunciation!

In the latest versions of the Qigong voice prompts, the voice is synthesized by the Speechify app, which has given me the ability to fine-tune the instruction so it flows with the movements of the practitioner. According to the developer, ‘Speechify uses cutting edge Artificial Intelligence and Deep Learning to synthesize the highest quality and most natural sounding voices in history.’

After enjoying several teachers and forms of Qigong, I most resonate with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming (YMAA). His app on ‘Eight Pieces of Brocade’ is recommended for foundational understanding before using my practice aid.

‘Deep Breathing Reflections’ is an adjunct to the Brocades movements. It is introduced at the beginning of ‘Brocades’ to move the mind to the present moment, and at the end to finish with deep breathing.

Brocades 002 (video below) is spoken in a male voice, and Brocades 001 (at the Whole Human site) is in a female voice. Both are available as downloadable files, unconditionally free, so they can be played with any mp3 player.

Perhaps because I am the creator, I love following the prompts. It feels so vital and alive, and I can focus on that feeling rather than watching what a person is doing. Test it out and let me know how it feels to you, please.

Any comments and/or suggestions will be appreciated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AafvyuU3uQQ

https://content.thriveglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/BROCADES-002_V-4.0.mp4

Originally published on the Whole Human site.

https://www.wholehuman.emanatepresence.com/

— Published on August 11, 2019

Like being taught by Stephen Hawking...

rett2
08-13-2019, 03:41 AM
Qigong today should be a refuge from screens, phones, tablets, technology, AI, robotics and all that. Devices off.

GeneChing
09-16-2019, 10:24 AM
Shaolin 8 Section Brocade
September 27
Shaolin Da Luohan & Mantis
September 28
USA Shaolin Kungfu Zen Academy
1161 Redmond Ave, San Jose CA
Contact www.ShaolinKungFuZen.com, usaskz@gmail.com, 408-806-0155

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70313295_10159194984382715_1222035950830354432_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQkfUaBlJAG9owhl3z8RQYsnbpcel4A0PPI9lC13Z82 Rf4nOmqHw06q0G6sbfUfHmk4&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=a4c2ca6f1c41a795c672309a3e04f3d9&oe=5DEEE69C

GeneChing
09-23-2019, 09:36 AM
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70704841_10159217573147715_2261536276912013312_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQky-fdfybuSJOfU_cNxkNZVN1IyPzeLYl_ZBukGhLFWyX2GW2GOWQ6 V7cN9WfuUPJE&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=579723818b5f229128b67ce7692f0fc0&oe=5DFBBC60

Shaolin 8 Section Brocade FRIDAY September 27
Shaolin Da Luohan & Mantis SATURDAY September 28
USA Shaolin Kungfu Zen Academy
1161 Redmond Ave, San Jose CA
www.ShaolinKungFuZen.com, usaskz@gmail.com, 408-806-0155

Man, I'm so out of shape. Doubt that'll change much in the next couple of days. :o

GeneChing
09-27-2019, 07:59 AM
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71690820_10158053499869363_6134484325539774464_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_eui2=AeEb7NaawA7o_W_vxYoYt2urWkU4CWXaof5nH7agm 3tY7zPxMMTmAoGBOlUIw9i5SXGC5I2WTHiZwa147YGSPfP6mm5 mt1Q0SRYTzmxI81Pjhw&_nc_oc=AQmjjS7QHEpBb1bBmA8PNRB3onZ45O6cELKptMWKHUj I8K_oxkGZwZBl7fwkP97gWpA&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=90227ba137349da598bcc22a1ca8c858&oe=5E396E5F
I brought my master Shi Decheng to the office for an interview, a shoot and lunch. Gigi wanted to treat him to a meal as well as the TC Media staff and my shidi Jeff Hung. It was a great interview focused on Baduanjin which I plan to publish in our next issue - our Spring 2020 (our Winter 2020 is already full). Stay tuned.

Hope to see some of you tonight and tomorrow for my master's seminars in San Jose.

THREADS
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)
Baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))

GeneChing
10-11-2019, 07:40 AM
From tai chi to acupuncture, VA embracing new kind of health care (https://foxsanantonio.com/news/local/from-tai-chi-to-acupuncture-va-embracing-new-kind-of-health-care-10-10-2019)
by Emily Baucum, Fox San AntonioThursday, October 10th 2019

From tai chi to acupuncture, VA embracing new kind of health care (SBG photo)

SAN ANTONIO (WOAI/KABB) – The Department of Veterans Affairs is embracing a new kind of health care. For some veterans, acupuncture and tai chi are even replacing painkillers.

Fox San Antonio was granted exclusive access into the new Whole Health program. San Antonio is one of its flagship sites, and it could revolutionize how the VA approaches chronic conditions like pain and PTSD.

Take one look at Alan Van Valkenburg’s t-shirt and you know exactly what makes the longtime Army combat medic tick.

"Dad, grandpa, veteran,” he reads from the shirt. “Those are my priorities.

Outside the VA Medical Center, he told us about his journey.

“You're trained from day one to go, go, go. Mission first. And you don't take care of yourself,” Van Valkenburg says.

He has PTSD from what he saw in war. Two years ago, a major stroke forced him to relearn how to walk and how to see.

"After the stroke, simple things can be frustrating,” Van Valkenburg says.

He’s now in the Whole Health Program, working with a health coach and setting goals to improve his mind and body.

"Were there any areas that stood out to you?" the health coach asks.

“Physical well-being,” Van Valkenburg answers.

“So working the body?” the health coach asks.

“Yes,” Van Valkenburg says. "It comes back to having the PTSD and the depression. And not wanting to do things."

Dr. Elizabeth Halmai, the clinical director for Whole Health at the VA Medical Center, says the program is a new way for veterans to look at health care.

"It's to help people re-engage with that purpose or meaning that maybe they lost,” Dr. Halmai explains. "Very different from traditional medicine. We oftentimes refer to traditional medicine as being a 'find it, fix it' model. We're really geared toward the symptoms the veteran is having, and how do we help them address those symptoms."

Van Valkenburg’s gotten relaxation coaching to rest his mind and even sleep better. There’s acupuncture to help with pain, and tai chi for strength and balance.

Any veteran can sign up for Whole Health, with any diagnosis. We watched the tai chi instructor modify movements for a veteran with a prosthetic leg.

"This isn't your grandfather's VA,” reporter Emily Baucum says.

"Not at all. Not at all,” Dr. Halmai says with a laugh.

She calls Whole Health a preventive approach that can keep a veteran healthier, longer.

"We start seeing a reduction in both pharmacy costs and outpatient costs,” Dr. Halmai says. "One of the reasons that Whole Health is actually here is to really tackle that opioid epidemic. We actually have seen a reduction in opioid use and opioid costs for those individuals that actually do engage in Whole Health."

The VA believes Whole Health could also help prevent suicides. Doctors are working to target people transitioning from active duty to veteran status, a group that’s most at-risk of mental health issues.

"I'm 56, so I'm not young either,” Van Valkenburg says. “But I've got a couple of friends that are Vietnam veterans and they are embracing this program. Because it's never been here for us before."

He’s learned to connect his health into the priorities he wears over his heart.

"It's made me take a harder look at myself and where I want to be from now, to the future,” Van Valkenburg says. So I can see my grandson at 18 and watch him graduate. I want to see him graduate."

By EMILY BAUCUM The still from the vid looks more like baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade)) than tai chi (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70689-Tai-Chi-Veterans-amp-PTSD), but we won't quibble.

GeneChing
02-04-2020, 09:38 AM
SUBSCRIBE NOW! All subscribers will receive a FREE 8 SECTION BROCADE POSTER with the SPRING 2020 issue.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP8rxozUwAAhmjK?format=jpg&name=medium

You must be subscribed by February 10 2020 to take advantage of this offer.
(https://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html)
THREADS
Spring 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
Baduanjin (8-section brocade) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)

GeneChing
02-10-2020, 07:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmRtws6xQZ4
TCM medical staff practice Ba Duan Jin to prevent respiratory diseases during coronavirus outbreak

THREADS
Coronavirus (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-Wuhan-Pneumonia)
Baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))

GeneChing
02-10-2020, 09:00 AM
LAST DAY to get a FREE 8 SECTION BROCADE POSTER with your SPRING 2020 issue. SUBSCRIBE NOW!

All subscribers receive a FREE 8 SECTION BROCADE POSTER if subscribed by February 10 2020 for the SPRING 2020 issue.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQbeSYTVAAMEpXK?format=jpg&name=medium (https://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html)

THREADS
Spring 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
Baduanjin (8-section brocade) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)

GeneChing
02-19-2020, 01:07 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERKsmscU8AA95JY?format=jpg&name=medium

We hope to get our container cleared by this weekend. If so, subscriptions will go out early next week. It is a top priority.

THREADS
Spring 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
COVID-19 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-(COVID-19)-Wuhan-Pneumonia)
Baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))

GeneChing
02-27-2020, 10:13 AM
To all our subscribers, thank you for your patience, support and understanding.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERzSX6RUYAALaE6?format=jpg&name=900x900

THREADS
Spring 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
COVID-19 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-(COVID-19)-Wuhan-Pneumonia)
Baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))

GeneChing
03-09-2020, 09:12 AM
Chinese nurse teaches coronavirus patients Qigong amid treatment (http://www.china.org.cn/china/Off_the_Wire/2020-03/07/content_75785840.htm)
Xinhua, March 7, 2020

HOHHOT, March 7 (Xinhua) -- Some of Chinese medical staff have been teaching COVID-19 patients Qigong, a traditional Chinese system of deep breathing excercise, to help them stay active during treatment.

A newly posted video on Weibo, WeChat and other social media platforms captured a hazmat-suited nurse teaching his patients Baduanjin, a traditional aerobics form, in a hospital ward in Wuhan, Hubei Province.

The nurse in the video is Liu Dongming, one of the more than 800 medical workers from north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region to help the epidemic control efforts in Hubei.

Liu worked in Wuhan Youfu Hospital where most patients were with mild symptoms.

"Some patients were under great psychological pressure and often stayed in bed," he told Xinhua in a phone call interview on Saturday. "My favorite sport Baduanjin might do some good to them, as the smoothing movements could comfort their body and mood," he added.

Besides medical care, Liu taught his patients Baduanjin and urged them to practice. Sometimes his activities were limited by the hazmat suit, and he demonstrated it over and over again.

"More and more patients started to learn and many of them felt refreshed after exercise," he said.

As a nurse of Baotou Traditional Medicine Hospital, Liu fell in love with Baduanjin several years ago during a preparation for a regional Qigong competition, in which he won the third place.

His wife and 8-year-old son also became Qigong lovers encouraged by him.

"I tried to teach more patients as well as my colleagues and would like them to benefit from this kind of Qigong," he said. Enditem

THREADS
COVID-19 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-(COVID-19)-Wuhan-Pneumonia)
Baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))

GeneChing
03-16-2020, 09:33 AM
...and I don't quite agree with it, but it's relevant to our forum here.


Culture China 22:32, 20-Feb-2020
Tai Chi, Baduanjin, Chinese-style exercises help you fight coronavirus (https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-02-20/Tai-Chi-Baduanjin-Chinese-style-exercises-help-you-fight-coronavirus-Of4VQCNbtS/index.html)
By Wu Yan

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3049544e356b7a4e776b544f7845444d7949444f31457a6333 566d54/img/8519713db998487ea04c61965d562d7f/8519713db998487ea04c61965d562d7f.jpg

Chinese-style exercises such as Tai Chi and Baduanjin have become popular among patients during the novel coronavirus outbreak, and have been recommended by medical experts to ordinary people to improve physical strength.

Photos and videos of doctors leading patients with mild symptoms to practice Tai Chi and Baduanjin in makeshift hospitals in Wuhan have gone viral on social media recently. Experts say the exercises are good for patients' recovery and reducing their anxiety.

What's so good about Tai Chi and Baduanjin?

Developed from ancient Chinese philosophies and breathing techniques, Tai Chi is a system of meditative physical exercise. Tai Chi is best known as a martial art which has developed into many genres over the centuries.

In 1956, the then-national sports authority introduced 24-Form Tai Chi. Adapted from traditional Yang-style Tai Chi but simplified and standardized, 24-Form Tai Chi is widely adopted by many nowadays for relaxation and health.

"In China, a great way (to strengthen the body) is Tai Chi," renowned Chinese respiratory expert Zhong Nanshan said during an interview, "When doing Tai Chi, the practitioner is in a half-squatting posture. Although the static movement does not have significant effect on tachypnea (rapid breathing), it is good for training muscles."

He said that he had a dozen patients whose lung function level was only 20 to 30 percent of that of a normal person. But by continuing to take medicine, walking and practicing Tai Chi, the patients' movement was greatly enhanced and some were even able to climb a mountain.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3049544e356b7a4e776b544f7845444d7949444f31457a6333 566d54/img/5e39ff9ef6134a289661f2e0f81d9d32/5e39ff9ef6134a289661f2e0f81d9d32.png
A doctor leads patients of mild symptoms in a Tai Chi practice in a makeshift hospital in Wuhan, Hubei Province. /People's Daily

Similar to Tai Chi in that it emphasizes breathing, Baduanjin, or Eight-Section Brocade, refers to eight sections of movements performed repetitively and nonstop, reminiscent of brocade weaving.

Originating from the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1127), Baduanjin traditionally contains both a standing and seated set of eight sections of movements each, but has also been expanded to twelve-section movements and sixteen-section movements.

In 2003, the General Administration of Sport of China re-choreographed the standing version of the aerobic exercise, and promoted it as one of eight health qigongs nationwide. Featuring slow movement and low intensity, Bajuanjin is suitable for all ages.

For epidemic prevention and control, people are currently being advised to stay at home.

To help people strengthen the body and develop a healthy lifestyle, the General Administration of Sport of China recently recommended a list of indoor exercises. Tai Chi, Baduanjin and other traditional Chinese-style exercises are on the list.

"The key is perseverance. It's better to practice every day," Zhang Boli, general counsel to Wuhan's Dahuashan makeshift hospital and president of Tianjin University of Traditional Chinese Medicine, told China Sports Daily.

He also suggested ordinary people practice according to one's abilities and advance gradually in due order.

(Cover image: A man practices Tai Chi. /VCG)


THREADS
Tai Chi as medicine (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?50553-Tai-Chi-as-medicine)
Baduanjin] (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))
COVID-19 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71666-Coronavirus-(COVID-19)-Wuhan-Pneumonia)

GeneChing
03-18-2020, 01:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfIf1pCii4Q&t

THREADS
Baduanjin (8-section brocade) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))
Spring 2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)

GeneChing
09-11-2020, 10:33 AM
Be Well. READ Shaolin Ways Episode 5: The Eight-Section Brocade (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1553) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/9041_Shaolin-Ways_Lead.jpg

THREADS
Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))
Spring-2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
Shi-Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)
Shaolin-Trips-by-Gene-Ching (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?57311-Shaolin-Trips-by-Gene-Ching)

GeneChing
09-22-2020, 10:09 AM
Free 8 Section Brocade Poster! READ Shaolin Ways Episode 6: Baduanjin (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1558) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/6291_Baduanjin_8-Section-Brocade-Poster.jpg

threads
Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade))
Spring-2020 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71664-Spring-2020)
Shi-Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)

sirdude
09-29-2020, 08:10 PM
For those of you that practice this, in part 7, do you breathe out when you punch out or in?
Me personally I feel it more when I'm breathing out when I punch. I was taught it's not really a punch it's more like you are cradling an egg but I constantly breath out when I'm punching.

This guy really has an interesting version of it, he does it the exact opposite, and I think it's kind of crazy how big he scoops with his hand after the "punch".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5exY9MnErqs&t=3s

rett2
10-02-2020, 12:13 AM
For those of you that practice this, in part 7, do you breathe out when you punch out or in?
Me personally I feel it more when I'm breathing out when I punch. I was taught it's not really a punch it's more like you are cradling an egg but I constantly breath out when I'm punching.

This guy really has an interesting version of it, he does it the exact opposite, and I think it's kind of crazy how big he scoops with his hand after the "punch".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5exY9MnErqs&t=3s

I breathe out there. I was instructed to breath "naturally" on 7 of the movements, and only one movement had explicit breathing instructions. But by breathing naturally I ended up synching breathing with the other movements as well.

The link you sent looks unnecessarily elaborate and overcomplicated. Or at least, that kind of approach is not for me. I don't want a technical, academic, counterintuitive approach to moving energies around and breathing in weird tension-inducing ways, but rather a natural approach that allows the psychophysical organism to adjust and harmonise itself in its own way.

sirdude
10-02-2020, 07:54 AM
I breathe out there. I was instructed to breath "naturally" on 7 of the movements, and only one movement had explicit breathing instructions. But by breathing naturally I ended up synching breathing with the other movements as well.

The link you sent looks unnecessarily elaborate and overcomplicated. Or at least, that kind of approach is not for me. I don't want a technical, academic, counterintuitive approach to moving energies around and breathing in weird tension-inducing ways, but rather a natural approach that allows the psychophysical organism to adjust and harmonise itself in its own way.

Makes sense to me Rett, on another note, I really like how Yan Lei uses his hands to rotate his torso on the draw the bow section. You can see what I'm talking about here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eT9uy9_XwA&t=12m18s

YinOrYan
10-02-2020, 12:34 PM
I don't want a technical, academic, counterintuitive approach to moving energies around and breathing in weird tension-inducing ways, but rather a natural approach that allows the psychophysical organism to adjust and harmonise itself in its own way.

Okay, I DO want a "want a technical, academic" answer for the following. I've always wondered if there were historical bows where the outward hand presses against it like that, but I don't know how it would be held up. It seems to make sense when I'm stretching the sleeves on my shirts before putting them on...

rett2
10-03-2020, 12:05 AM
Makes sense to me Rett, on another note, I really like how Yan Lei uses his hands to rotate his torso on the draw the bow section. You can see what I'm talking about here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eT9uy9_XwA&t=12m18s

Thanks for the link. Always good to see Yan Lei's instructional stuff. Do you mean the hands during the transition or during the actual drawing of the bow?

sirdude
10-03-2020, 05:42 PM
I meant the bit before he draws back the bow. If you look at his other stuff he also does a similar thing with his arms when transitioning to cat stance when doing a basic stance form.

YinOrYan, I kind of doubt it. I also do not ride a horse exactly like I sit in horse stance.

YinOrYan
10-04-2020, 01:49 PM
YinOrYan, I kind of doubt it.

Perhaps it had something to do with a crossbow, sort of like this:

rett2
10-04-2020, 10:54 PM
I meant the bit before he draws back the bow. If you look at his other stuff he also does a similar thing with his arms when transitioning to cat stance when doing a basic stance form.

If we're talking about the same thing, I wonder if the intent comes from a taichi application.

GeneChing
10-05-2020, 09:09 AM
Comedy Icon Ng Man Tat No Longer Looks Frail And Sickly Thanks To Tai Chi (https://www.todayonline.com/8days/sceneandheard/entertainment/comedy-icon-ng-man-tat-no-longer-looks-frail-and-sickly-thanks-tai)
By*ILSA CHAN

https://www.todayonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/new_app_article_detail/public/8days-images/13020636-ng-man-tat-1.jpg?itok=xFaePEBf
Ng Man Tat
Now he wants everyone to get fit with [him] .
Published15 AUGUST, 2020 UPDATED 21 AUGUST, 2020

Now he wants everyone to get fit with [him] .

After years of being plagued with health problems, veteran Hongkong comedian Ng Man Tat seems to have turned his life around.

Earlier in the week, the actor, who is best known for being Stephen Chow’s sidekick in the auteur's slapstick comedy classics, took to social media to share a short clip of himself practising tai chi. Along with the clip, he wrote: “Get fit with me. Everyone can become a master.”

https://www.8days.sg/image/13020634/3x4/720/960/4835fa86e29a81671389a6c97041058/if/ng-man-tat-3.jpgMeet "Master Ng"
Dressed in a white singlet and black pants, “Master Ng” not only appeared energetic and in good spirits, but also looked fitter and healthier than he has in years.

He also dyed his hair black, which made him look younger than his 67 years.

https://www.8days.sg/image/13020632/3x4/720/960/7f852af302c3c177a38bfc51a20c8e8f/SJ/ng-man-tat-2.jpgMan Tat has come a long way health-wise
This is a far cry from how he looked a year ago when he was photographed looking frail and reportedly needed help walking.

https://www.8days.sg/image/13020630/16x9/1600/900/d7658ad61959540a74610d5426400725/Im/ng-man-tat-2.jpgMan Tat looking frail just last year
The comedian’s health struggles started in 2000 when he was diagnosed with diabetes, and almost had to amputate one of his legs.

In 2014, he was diagnosed with heart failure after a viral infection, and this spurred him to change his lifestyle. Despite his efforts, he revealed in 2015 that he could only recover 50 per cent of his heart’s function.

Last year, those photos of Man Tat looking frail also sparked concern about his health.

https://www.8days.sg/image/13020676/16x9/1600/900/9988c9a38916799869a8482afcd29f8a/Ke/ng-man-tat.jpgMan Tat at a promotional event for 2019 Chinese sci-fi flick The Wandering Earth
Photos: Weibo
Read more at https://www.8days.sg/sceneandheard/entertainment/comedy-icon-ng-man-tat-no-longer-looks-frail-and-sickly-thanks-13020638

Threads
The-Wandering-Earth (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71046-The-Wandering-Earth)
Celebrities-studying-Tai-Chi (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70323-Celebrities-studying-Tai-Chi)

I know it says Tai Chi but the pix look more like the Brocade (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56712-Baduanjin-(8-section-brocade)).

sirdude
10-05-2020, 09:12 AM
It very well could. Here is an example of his cat stance that I was talking about:
https://youtu.be/w-4n7cbNXZw?t=238

Changing the subject yet again. It's crazy how many different forms of this you can find online.
When I was training with yan lei and yan zi in china in 2017 at the end of every workout we did the last section of this on its own as a cooldown/release of energy I think.
We did it multiple ways but did it pretty much every workout.

A semi unique way was grasping the left wrist with your right arm, both hands behind your back, as you rock up on your toes breathing in you relax your arms and then when you slam your feet down breathing out you extend your arms down as far as you can.

I think my favorite version of this last move though was where you interlace your fingers in front of your body started with your arms fully extended down with the palms up, as you raise up on your toes you bring hands up to about throat level, turn them over and as you slam your heels down you push down with your palms again extending your arms fully with a vocal exhale.

rett2
10-06-2020, 03:42 AM
Yeah, I think it's kind of like how they have many of the same food dishes all around the country but prepare them in the local style.

The version of that move that I learned not only is done differently than elsewhere, but it's also been moved to position 6 in the sequence, instead of being at the end.

YinOrYan
10-06-2020, 08:53 AM
Yeah, I think it's kind of like how they have many of the same food dishes all around the country but prepare them in the local style.

The version of that move that I learned not only is done differently than elsewhere, but it's also been moved to position 6 in the sequence, instead of being at the end.

That's a good analogy, so then, is it a multi course meal? One instructor implied that it was a cumulative "sequence". I've always done it pretty much in that order and just swapped-in similar variations into similar "position", like when you can't find some ingredient.

rett2
10-07-2020, 01:10 AM
That's a good analogy, so then, is it a multi course meal? One instructor implied that it was a cumulative "sequence". I've always done it pretty much in that order and just swapped-in similar variations into similar "position", like when you can't find some ingredient.

I've assumed it was a cumulative sequence, but I wasn't taught the theory at all in the traditional learning setting. That makes it a much more exploratory process. In other learning situations (Western) there was loads of theory but not specifically about BDJ.

sirdude
10-07-2020, 10:40 AM
If your familiar with Bob Cooley(https://www.thegeniusofflexibility.com/bob-cooley)
When you get into the details he explains that one exercise following another creates a natural flow that enhances the experience.
I don't know if I buy into all of his stuff but it sounds reasonable to me, he ties it into the meridians as well, to come up with an ultimate path.

From my own personal experience we have a stretching routine that we go through in our kungfu class, and it mostly follows the same format each time with key stretches having their place, but we do a variety of stretches and the routine is always different, but the ordering stays mostly the same.
If you look at BWJ from a high level you can see it starts out with elongating bits, then switches to twisting bits and then goes more internally. It also kind starts at the top and works its way down the body.

I also look at the heel stomping as a clearing exercise so I would hesitate to move it from the end,
but at the same time I think it's good to experiment and find what works best for you, there are clearly multiple ways
to do it and if you are listening to your body you should be able to clearly discern what works and what does not.