View Full Version : What's the deal with Tang Soo Do?

11-21-2000, 10:00 PM
Out of curiosity, i was wondering if anyone knew anything about Tang Soo Do. Until recently i was under the impression that it was basically an early form of TKD but i guess it isn't. What's it consist of? Also, was it originally a form of Gung fu? My dad told me that it is basically Gung fu that eventually went to Korea. He's probably right because the phrase Tang Soo Do literally means "Way of the Chinese Hand."

There is only one martial art.

Kung Lek
11-21-2000, 10:09 PM
Check out any info on Chuck Norris.

tang Soo Do was his first art that he learned in...yes that's right, Korea.

Tang Soo Do is considered the Korean version and interpretation of Chinese Martial Arts.

It may also have some connections with Hwarang Do in its guiding principles.


Kung Lek

11-22-2000, 12:00 AM
pretty much just looks like a combination of tkd and jiujitsu to me.

11-22-2000, 12:07 AM
My kung fu brother had studied tang soo do prior to learning kung fu. From what he has shown me, the forms are very similar to the forms taught in the Japanese styles. Basai So Dan (Karate) is also taught in Tang Soo Do. Actually, a lot of Japanese style forms are done in Tang Soo DO. If you ask me, Tang Soo DO is basically what it claims to be "Korean Karate."

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

11-22-2000, 12:15 AM
Tang Soo DO is my "second" martial art system.
The translation of the name gives you the origins of the style.
Tang Soo Do literally means "Way of the Chinese Fist". as the Tang seems to come from the same root word as Wu Tang.

In my opinion, the forms evolve the higher you go, and second to the highest form in the system is called "So Rim Jang Kwan" the Shaolin Long Fist.

Many of the forms are named after the stylings of animals just like Chinese arts as well. Bassai the Cobra form is very Kung Fu-esque with its rythmic movements and fluid motion.
There are horse, eagle, sparrow, tiger, ram, crane, and heron forms... even a Praying Mantis form.

The forms evolve from Korean looking TKD style forms in the beginning to Japanese Karate styled in the beginning, and seem to become more Chinese the higher you go. But they are all uniquely Korean.

Hope this helped.


11-22-2000, 12:18 AM
oops... I meant to say the style of the forms evolves to japanese-styled in the middle not the beginning...
And In case I wasnt clear yes there is a Shaolin Form that is used by TSD

11-22-2000, 02:13 AM
Has anyone ever met Tang Soo Do instructors that teach or practice Chi Gung? San Chen Kata? I know I probably spelled that wrong.

11-22-2000, 05:20 AM
I've always heard that Tang Soo Do is the Korean word for Karate-do, which meant Way of the Chinese Hand in it's Okinwan form.

I used to be daga

11-22-2000, 05:32 AM
But karate-do means Way of the Empty/(Open) Hand doesn't it?

11-22-2000, 06:02 AM
It does now, but the Okinawans were tipping their hats to the Chinese with the ideogram "kara" and to their own art of "te". The Japanese changed it in the not too distant past.

I used to be daga

11-22-2000, 06:15 AM
Ah, I see. Cheers.

11-22-2000, 06:25 AM
The fighting stance involved setting one arm at a 45 degree angle down against the body and the top are angled up (perfect for trapping) In spite of this he was a good fighter. He was 2nd or third in a Tang Soo Do tournament. Anyway dive rolling was important and belt ranks took over 2 years to attain. There were only like 5 belts and the highest was blue belt. For their instructor testing they had to break, not a heated board or a brick, but a river rock, a big smooth, polished river rock. Thats impresive. I later visited the school and the hand position wansn't as it was because somebody that knew how to trap came in and kicked his ass. He had a jj guy come in from time to time and teach us rolling and falling and things like that. It is basically karate. And yes, we made fun of the TKD guys. There was no padding and there was a big emphasis on control and not hitting the person. It was more of an "artform"

8Step Sifu

11-22-2000, 06:31 AM
This Korean(hard) style, does'nt seem to be as `proliferate` as it was when I was studying it back in the early 80's... this could be due to its easy assimilation and association with other styles.


11-22-2000, 08:59 AM
Several Korean style teachers I'm friendly with (the open minded ones) all say Tang Soo Do is Shotokan karate with a bit of Korean "flavouring". The first forms are apparently the same as the Shotokan Heian/Pinan kata.

Of course, these Korean stylist friends of mine aren't Tang Soo Do practitioners, so they may not be qualified to say that much about the art.

11-22-2000, 05:27 PM
Tang Soo Do is not a Koreanized version of Shotokan. The forms are influenced by the Japanese from occupation. Yes some of the forms (Pyung Forms)are similar, but the advanced forms are nothing like Karate-Do, at all.
The forms are as follows;

Kee Chi Il Bo
Kee Chi Yee Bo
Kee Chi Sam Bo
(First three basic forms)

Pyung Ahn Il Dan
Pyung Ahn Yee Dan
Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
Pyung Ahn Oh Dan
(Series of Five Pyung Forms similar to Shotokan)

Bassai- Cobra Form
Naihanchi Cho Dan
Naihanchi Yee Dan
(first two of three horse style forms)

Sipsoo- Bear Form
Naihanchi Sam Dan
(Third Horse Form)

Jin-Do- Crane Form
Rohai- Heron Form
(Three form set)

Hang Sang Koon- Eagle Form
(Two form set)

Sai San- Praying Mantis

Whang Shu- The Sparrow

Jion- Ram Form

Oh Sip Sa Bo- Tiger Form

So Rim Jang Kwon- Chang Chuan
(Shaolin Long Fist)

Tae Guk Kwon- Grand Ultimate Fist

The animals are symbolized in these forms because of the techniques used, the finger strikes indicate a snake striking, or some arm movements indicate flapping of birds wings, or the power and strength of the bear, but all were chosen because these animals choose to avoid conflict unless absolutely necissary for survival.

Jion is named for the Jion Temple in China, the Horse forms are named for the City of Hana where they originated, and The kang Sang, and Whang Shu forms are named for the men who developed them.

Tang Soo Do's movements are similar to karate to be sure, but how many variations on punching and kicking can you have? Besides where did Karate come from? oh yeah...


The style best I can tell is Northern Chinese Martial Arts taken, simplified, restructured, and retaught. The influence of Japan, and autonomous history of the development of the forms of TSD gives the style a Korean feel all its own.


11-23-2000, 06:28 AM
Tang Soo Do is a very simple and a basic stuff comparing to JKD and Wing Chun. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


11-23-2000, 06:31 AM
Tang Soo Do is a very simple and basic stuff comparing to JKD and Wing Chun. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Shaolin Master
11-23-2000, 07:03 AM
Then lets be stupid

That being the case...
JKD/Wing Chun are very simple stuff compared to other traditional chinese martial arts

Like as if anything is better due to complication...

It is the level of understanding no matter which art. (the practitioner as we have said a million times).


Shi chan Long

11-23-2000, 08:32 AM
Is someone trying to argue that wing chun is exciting? I must have misread...I'll reread from the beginning.

11-23-2000, 03:13 PM
TangSooDo (TSD) is a true, traditional Korean martial art, not a M.A. like TaeKwonDo (TKD). TSD descends from the 2000 yrs old art of SooBahkDo. It is still a complete art, with 50/50 hands & feet (including sweeps, takedowns, joint locks, punches, kicks, practical self defense, and all the Korean weapons). It's not sport oriented like modern TKD. The techniques (blocks, kicks & punches) are very similar to TKD, if not identical in some cases. Emphasis of the art is more on self defense, spirituality/philosopy and not competition.

The occupation of Korea by the Japanese military took place from 1909-1945 when practicing & teaching of M.A. was restricted. After the war, this restriction was lifted. Master Hwang Kee organized the Korean SooBahkDo Association (TSD) in 1945. Besides the SooBahkDo Assn existence in Korea, there were various types of other M.A. in the other Kwans. In 1965 all of these other systems were united into one organization called the Korean TaeKwonDo Assn, and the art was called TaeKwonDo uniformly. TSD and TKD were divided with TSD striving to remain as a traditional M.A. while TKD held its world games and sports. TSD at first glance looks very similar to Japanese/Okinawa karate as both had great influence from China's Tang Dynasty. TSD uses some of the same form sets as karate, with variation in the techniques & application. As with HapKiDo & HwarangDo, it is a direct descendent of the fighting style of the Hwarang Warrior/Scholars that unified the Korean pennisula 1,300 yrs ago. TSD black belts wear the traditional top of a Hwarang warrior, white top trimmed in black satin. Some kwans of TDO use midnight blue instead of black. It's just a philosphical difference in the meaning of the colors. At the higher levels of TSD, a great emphasis is put on the spiritual side and the healing arts. This is also a direct link from the Hwarang, as they were great healers as well as scholars & warriors.

11-23-2000, 05:50 PM
It is difficult in the town I live in to find anything that is not Okinawan or Korean. The Japanese styles and Okinawan systems dominate, and there seems to be a dojo on every corner.

I am very fortunate to have a world-class sifu here. And my loyalty lies with him.

However other than Tae Kwon Do, there is no Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwon anywhere. I have to drive an hour North of here to learn. I am in no hurry for any kind of "belt" ( I dont really believe in belt ranking anyway) so I go once or twice a month and practive the forms at home (sometimes I am allowed to video a certain form or technique for referrence while I am gone, with permission from the instructor) then I go back and show what I have learned, and answer questions about Kung Fu. The class is taught by a man who loves the art, and teaches to give back to his community and for the area kids. He teaches at no cost from a town hall and a church. His Black Belts epitomize the heart and soul of loving kindness and honor expected of classical martial artists.

It is run like a true "club" with a summer camp, and fundraisers for anything from parties, to trips to Florida to visit Grandmaster Kim.

I get tired of hearing about how TSD is like TKD, and how it is inferior or somehow useless. I am glad to hear others give it the credit it deserves, and I thank you.


Kung Lek
11-23-2000, 06:00 PM
Shaolin Master-

Wing Chun IS the Distilled method of Shaolin Boxing. It was created to teach martial skill quickly to those who had none.

JKD was born of Bruce Lee, developed by Bruce Lee and later further developed by those who carried his legacy (Mostly Dan Inosanto and his students)

Bruces first art was Wing Chun in Yip Man's school.
Yip Man added much to the Wing Chun curriculum that he taught and brought it further than what it originally was.

I don't believe that it is "talking stupid" to say that wing chun is a distilled version of a larger art form or that JKD is also a distilled version of a larger art form.

eventually and with time, I think that JKD will become and is becoming a "system" as much as all its proponents say its a "concept" they are placing hard and fast rules on it to keep it from becoming what so many other martial arts have become ...incomplete.


Kung Lek

11-23-2000, 06:23 PM
Sorry for the typo error. Near the last sentence "Some kwans of TDO use midnight blue..." the TDO s/b TSD. That correction should eliminate any confussion the typing error may have caused.

[This message was edited by Terry on 11-24-00 at 11:30 AM.]

[This message was edited by Terry on 11-24-00 at 11:31 AM.]

11-25-2000, 05:35 AM
I didnt think there was an attack against Wing Chun or JKD, was there?
I saw a response to a post that seemed to make TSD out to be an inferior art form and the response basically said (like so many others) "there are no superior arts only superior artists."

Laidies and Gentlemen, lets try not to let thinskin get in the way of otherwise good converstion!


11-26-2000, 02:18 AM
Terry, it's my understanding that Hapkido decended from Aikido and not the Hwarang. This was stated by Joo Bang Lee.

I used to be daga

11-26-2000, 06:16 AM
rogue - sorry I cannot confirm nor argue your info on Hapkido. The info on TSD that I posted came third hand - from a 3rd Degree Black Black (Tang Soo Do) who researched his style. I do not know his source of the info. It's possible that the Hapkido part of his info is incorrect.

11-26-2000, 09:34 AM
Hapkido descended from Daito Ryu aiki jutsu...as did aikido. Both styles share the same origin, but grew in directions that are very different.

Hwarang is not the traditional art some think it is...it's only 50 or so years old with its founder alive and well today.

MonkeySlap Too
11-27-2000, 03:23 AM
Hwang Kee admitted that he learned from a book while working at a Japanese railroad station in Japanese occupied Manchuria. It was most likely a Shotokan karate book. The applications, training methodology, fighting strategies and approach of TSD has much more to do with Karate than with any CMA. If Tang Soo Do is influenced by CMA, it is not due to any instruction from actual CMA instructors.

If you do not beleive me, go talk to a competent CMA practitioner and compare. It's just different.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Black Jack
11-27-2000, 04:27 AM
Hapkido was founded by Choi Yong Sool (1904-1986), who, from 1919 to the beginning of WWII, had studied Daito-ryu Aiki JuJitsu in Japan.

It is said that Choi learned this art from its headmaster Takeda Sokaku. Daito-ryu Aiki JuJitsu is one of the arts Morihei Ueshiba synthesized into Aikido. Around 1939-40 Choi returned to his native Korea and combined his kowledge of Aiki Jujitsu with the Korean system of Hwarang-Do and at a latter date Taekyon.

From what has been stated to me is that Choi never mastered the vast Aiki JuJitsu system of Daito-ryu and only got to about the first circle of mastery in the system as there are three levels of techniques.

Daito-ryu Aiki JuJitsu comes from the Tekada family and is also responsible for many of the techniques you seen in Aikido.

As to where the gathered the tools to create there family system of Daito-ryu I have no clue.


11-27-2000, 02:50 PM
If anyone is interested, there's a research paper by Bob Duggan covering Hwa Rang Do. There's a section covering the relationship between Hwa Rang Do and Tang Soo Do. The site is as follows:

www.theexoticarts.com/Personal.html (http://www.theexoticarts.com/Personal.html)

11-30-2000, 12:58 PM
Great Information on the history of Tang Soo Do!

Regarding the style's Chinese heritage, may I ask if anyone has information on this:

1. Is the Sip Sam Sui form of Tang Soo Do really a kung fu form as stated by the Moo Duk Kwan Organization?

2. Is the Tae Keuk Kwon Form the same as the Tai Chi long form?

3. Is the So Rim Jang Kwon form the exact same form as that practiced by the Northern Shaolin Chang Quan?

4. Are there any websites that contain more detailed movements on these forms? Are they purely Chinese or are they Koreanized versions?

Thank you.

12-26-2000, 05:12 PM
Those who continue to say that Tang Soo Do is modified Shotokan or other Japanese or Okinawan karate have obviously not gone farr enough.

The individual(Hwang Kee) Grandmaster who developed the Chil Sung (seven stars) form was a student of Yang Style tai Chi ChuanAnd studied it from the actual Yang Family grandmaster of the day (his name escapes me) and from what my Kwanjang has said, The Tae-Guk form of TSD is actually about 1/2 of the Yang Long Form.

MonkeySlap Too
12-26-2000, 07:17 PM
I do not beleive it. Tang Soo Do does not demonstrate any understanding of the underlying principles of Tai Chi. This has to be a misrepresentation on the part of TSD. Get real, guys.

For that matter, if having half of a Tai Chi form is so cool - why not just study Tai Chi? While good Tai Chi teachers are as hard to find, they not as hard to find as Korean teachers who do not misrepresent thier history.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

12-26-2000, 09:41 PM
I guess I dont understand what there is to believe or not believe.

As a TSD and a TCMA practitioner, it is impossible NOT to see the connection. Have you seen the form? have you seen the application?
And how is it misrepresented?

Just because you dont like something does not mean it isnt so.

Could you perhaps explain your position a little more? I am unclear as to what your beef is.

12-27-2000, 04:22 PM
I studied TSD for an admitedly short period of time (2 yrs) while living in upstate new york. While it was a nice group of people, it was simply a belt-factory and no one that I saw there (we had several 2nd and 3rd dan students, and a 4th dan ran the school) had the least little clue about ANY of the things that I now consider to be absolutely nescessary to effective practice of a martial art. Stances were never really tested for stability, There was no contact in sparring or in the 1-step sparring techniques.... so if there is no contact, you never know if you are generating power or have proper anatomical alignments. Form was never taught with application. Form practice was a warm-up for sparring or for marching back and forth doing kicks. Their joint-locking techniques were simply horrible and were only taught in terms of the 1-step techniques...they were never integrated into free-sparring (giving the impression that chin-na is only valid if grabbed).

And this stuff about the Hwa Rong? God I am tired of this "we descend from a cave 2000 years ago" crap. How many civilizations have risen and fallen in 2000 years?? These guys want you to believe that their martial art survived unbroken in a country that has been a doormat for just about all of asia??? If these guys were such amazing warriors, why has korea never held a position of military dominance over anyone? Or does the path of the Wha Wrong not include actually winning? these guys are no different from Chung Moo Do, Kuk Sul Wan, or Shao-lin Do. Fake a biography, buy a belt, write an article, open a few hundred schools. (sorry for the flame!!)

I really enjoyed TSD at the time, and it was a good step in my progression as an artist, but I could never take it seriously now. I hate to be a snob, but CMA really have it over on just about anything else I have been exposed to.

12-27-2000, 05:43 PM
The mighty Taiji, Defender of Tang Soo Do...


It seems to me as though you had a bad experience (though you admittedly enjoyed it at the time).
"Belt Factories" exist all over... even in CMA.
I will admit openly that I feel my Praying Mantis, (not to mention my Praying mantis instructor) ar far superior to my TSD instruction. But contrary to much of what I hear people say (inthis forum as well as other places) my TSD has not had any ill effect on my CMA training, in fact it has improved my kicks tremendously due to the precision and specialized (almost TKD-ish) techniques applied in TSD.
I could never say I would not take another system seriously. It all depends on who is teachig and performing the style.
Some of the points you made were valid, but also apply to any school or McDojo out there. Forms are just coreographed movemnts without the applications of the techniques contained within them. And while I personally dont think that sparring is as necissary as many people here (and elswhere) do, I will agree that the way many clubs and schools run and teach their sparring is very misinformative and in fact dangerous, as it can give a false sense of securtity.
Belts dont mean much to me, but to teach a child they are important. It serves as a means of goal setting and a sense of accomplishment. My Sifu does not teach children until they are at least 11 or 12, as the attention span and discipline to master his style is pretty intense. Admittedly, I would be totally lost had I not had TKD, American Karate, and TSD in my background. While I still have a lot to un-learn I feel the two compliment each other, and have given me a familiarity with hard and soft that I would not otherwise have.
TSD is by far easier to get a grip on than Praying mantis, but in the hands of a skilled practitoner, does it make it any less effective?


MonkeySlap Too
12-27-2000, 05:54 PM
Pound for pound, you can take an average CMA student and he'll beat a great TSD or TKD student.

The tactics and strategies of TSD just aren't 'there' yet.

I do have a friend who is a TSD, Judo and Hakko Ryu JuJitsu black belt who is a tough old bird, but he's the guy who coined the phrase above.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

12-28-2000, 06:16 AM
That is a bold statemnt. Perhaps it is true?
I still feel how the individual trains has a lot to do with it.

MonkeySlap Too
12-28-2000, 07:10 AM
How the individual trains is why the ball is in a legit CMA guys corner. TSD just doesn't train the same. Kicky punchy, not a lot of know how. (and thats a quote from a TSD champion who went on to study CMA. He loved his youth in TSD, but he was thr first to admit it screwed him up more than it helped him. I loved it when he fought only using TSD - I always won, which is something that wouldn't normally happen.)

In fact, I have repeatedly invited TKD and TSD guys to enter the ring at San Shou events, but no reply... However, the SeidoKan guys and Kyokushin guys sometiomes show, bless thier hearts.

Or in the words of Chang Tung Sheng after observing some TSD "That is rudimentary Shaolin, fit only for children." ooohhh, was that mean? I won't argue with Master Chang though...

Another factor is the natural attributes of an untrained but really tough fighter. Martial arts improve your odds of survival, they do not make you superman. I encourage everyone to study KMA because I find the KMA guys less dangerous than the wiley streetpunk who loves to fight.

12-28-2000, 03:06 PM
Harsh man.
While I dont agree... I dont have to! :D
I dont know what a "champion" in TSD means, but the training I have seen (1 step sparring, body conditioning etc.) Is comperable to much in CMA.

Sokay though.
I just refuse to be that blatantly down on any one system. I have found TSD to be very complimentary to my CMA, and a good foundation. Remember they always go back to their roots, and that is why later sets and techniqes in TSD are nearly 100% CMA.


MonkeySlap Too
12-28-2000, 03:33 PM
Yeah, harsh. Sorry. I don't want to offend. I'd love to get a reccomendation of somebody who is a TSD only trained guy who could show me 'real' TSD. I'm just pretty sure I've seen it, and I think it's just fine, for other people.

12-28-2000, 03:58 PM
Monkey, are you a sifu or a fight promoter? Have you entered their tourniments and fought under their rules first to show goodwill. With the disrespect you show for other arts I don't blame them for not showing.

12-29-2000, 01:49 AM
There are no legitimate MA ties to the Hwarang. History taught in MA schools is quite different than what actually occurred. In fact, most styles that have made such a claim have corrected themselves (specifically Hwarang Do) by making it very clear that their style is in the "spirit" of the Hwarang warriors - not the actual art. Besides, Hwarang were young boys known for being athletic, artistic, poets, dancers, archers, etc., not a fighting brute squad. Now, ask me how I know this....

Self-Thinking Follower
12-29-2000, 02:57 AM
In the 60's this was a hot debate and most agreed that Tangsoo was just the Korean pronunciation of Karate. This of course was the inside scoop. Publicly, korean sytle practitioners wanted to separate their art from Japanese and Okinawan styles. However, certain brave Korean Instructors like, S.Henry Cho, in writing admited that much of Taekwon-Do (previously known as TangSoo-Do and KongSoo-Do) came from Okinawa, by way of JAPAN. Do a little research on the writings of S.Henry Cho and early writings of General Choi Hong Hi and you see they both admit to the art developing from Karate, or as they pronounce the chinese characters "Dang soo Dao", Tang Dynasty Hand Way.

Some additional Information:

Hwang Kee was employed by the Japanese railroad in Manchuria. Hwang Kee was good friends with Gogen Yamaguchi of Japanese Goju-ryu karate, who was also stationed in Manchuria. The Yang family was nowhere near Manchuria. Hwang Kee collected many chinese books on Kung Fu. Some had been published by the Ching Wu. Tan tui exsist in Hwang Kee's Tangsoo-Do but not in that of others, why? ;)
Pyong Ahn is the korean reading of the chinese charaters known as Pinan in okinawa and Heian in Japan. The Pinan forms are known to have originated in OKINAWA!, chief architect was okinawan Tode instructor, Itosu. Hwang Kee's own book on TangSoo-Do admits this, and is in fact one of the works with proof of its development from Karate. Why do people refuse to give credit where credit is due?, Japanese Atrocities durring WW2! and blind following. Most other forms mentioned are also okinawan with exception to TaeGeuk Kwon and Sorim, TaiChi-Chuan and Shaolin respectively.
As for seven stars,?

In closing, if TangSoo-Do is natively Korean, which Korean Instructor taught Hwang Kee before he was sent to Manchuria by the Japanese?

12-29-2000, 05:16 AM
Let's see in the Chon Ji pattern set of TKD there is Bassai, Empi and Tekki Shodan all of which are Japanese kata. And then Tekki Shodan bears an uncanny resembalence to Okinwan kata Naihanchi which supposedly comes from a Chinese form. The cultural cleansing of Korean martial arts is almost funny.

12-29-2000, 11:52 AM
Oh, absolutely!
The Forms of Tang Soo Do are most definately variations on the Pinan and Heian kata. No doubt about it!
But it is also difficult to deny the Chinese connections when looking at the later forms, thats all.
The Seven Stars form is a newer one developed mid 1980's I believe, and is named for a dream the developer had of the big dipper.

12-30-2000, 01:01 AM
All my knowledge on Tang soo do is based on a crazy martial arts salesman. When ever I go to his store, he asks me what style I practise. I say "I do Choy lee fut kung fu" and he always replies "Aahh.. Shaolin! I know. Shaolin very good" I say "No.. Choy lee fut".. and he replies "Ahh. Shaolin"..

hehe. I don't care really.. he gives "special discount" to Shaolin practisioners ;) it's just that he always starts to babble about Tang soo do so I can't even get out of the store.

"Tang soo do very good. very much kung fu. very much shaolin. tang soo do very good. Chuck Norris practised Tang soo do. Chuck Norris! look here picture." etc..

hehehe. he's a nice guy, but I'd really like to get out of the store when I want to. I don't want to wait until his eternal monologue about Tang soo do is over.

yeah. but I'm sure it's a nice MA.

12-31-2000, 09:08 PM

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