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View Full Version : Well, another fighting contest is done.Guess what, no kung fu guys even entered.



chokeyouout
05-04-2001, 12:51 PM
Is it a coincidence?No Kung fu lurp has ever won jack sh!t in a MMA contest.That must mean they withold the secrets of fighting but are to enlightened to enter such a event.There choreographed eye gouges are much to deadly for the MMA fighter.

Is it because the skinny bruce lee wannabee would get pounded into the ground before he let out his wwwaaaaaaaaaaaatttaaaaaaaaaa?These kung fu masters know something we dont.The key is to sit back and give reasons why they shouldent enter fighting competitions while KNOWING deep inside they know how to fight.

Have they fought?NO.They are far too deadly for such a simpletons battle.They understand the power of assumption and wishing.That is the best technique.Kung fu guys dont enter because they know they will maim the other entrants and they cant stand the idea.They just sit back and wish in their minds that they will never have to unleash the power of kung fu!

One day everyone will realize that live training and wrestling is useless.Once you become secure that you can kill anyone in your head you dont need to actually do itanywhere else.Forms and strange attacks named after animals or chinese cuisine cannot be stopped by anyone.The thousands of years of what they read about fighing have proven the effectiveness.The ancient ones have been sucsessful in the history books so it must be true.


BEWARE OF THE SPECULATOR.

<img SRC=http://www.bjj.org/figures/choke-anim.gif>

Kaitain(UK)
05-04-2001, 01:07 PM
you might find the idea of hitting each other for sport fairly unattractive/unproductive and would much prefer to use full contact in situations where it was required :) - i.e. training and in a fight

I don't have a desire to enter the ring ever again

Maybe it's a comment on the temprament of CM Artists?

Or maybe we all just suck :)

It is odd that NOONE enters though - I'm sure not all CMA's are as enlightened as me ;)

"one room, many keys"

jjj
05-04-2001, 01:24 PM
Maybe they didnt enter because of the rules. Eye gouging, scratching and testicle biting were not allowed were they? How can you expect a KF master to compete when this deadly arsenal is not allowed?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

Ky-Fi
05-04-2001, 03:52 PM
well, I would agree with you guys. If you want to objectively consider yourself a great fighter, you should probably be fighting a lot with almost no rules---and as I don't do that, I wouldn't make any claims as to being an awesome fighter. Knifefighter is pretty open about his experience and competitions--maybe you guys could post some links or references as to your records in organized NHB competitions that could be independantly verified?

Matt-le-kat
05-04-2001, 03:54 PM
I think one of the main reasons that you don't normally see kung fu guys in the ring is because kung fu takes relatively longer to become proficient at.
I would have thought that by the time someone has trully mastered kung fu, they no longer want to fight with anyone. (that and they'd be too old to have the stamina to fight)

**********
Nothing is to be feared, only understood....

atsai
05-04-2001, 04:42 PM
chokeyouout strikes back... :D

Art T<HR Width="95%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

<form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE="website coming soon!" onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"> <INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE="e-mail" onClick="parent.location='mailto:arttsai@mediaone.net?subje ct=From KFO forum...'"></FORM>

Mr. Nemo
05-04-2001, 04:59 PM
Man, will you guys take it easy?

I get your god**** point already. Kung fu hasn't won any NHB competitions to speak of. Do you have to keep rubbing salt into that god**** wound? You act like we brag about our unbeatable techniques all the time on MMA forums, like we walk around like we're the hot wearing our pajamas and stealing people's lunch money.

I know this is a tired point, but why the hell do you come to a forum named "kung fu online" if all you want to do is sit (on the bench yourself, I might add, or do you compete in these events?) and s****** about how we never compete in NHB.

I want to train realistically, I want to take my kung fu with no bells and whistles to amatuer vale tudo and god willing maybe even win once I feel like I'm good and ready, and I'm not the only one.

And stop bringing up the ridiculousness of our "no eye gouging" excuses. Barely anyone ever says that around here anymore. It's easy to make us look stupid if you just make up stupid and act like we say it all the time.

By the way, some wing chun stylists have won matches in King of the Cage. Kung Fu can be effective in NHB, it's just really taking its time at it.

Kung Lek
05-04-2001, 05:28 PM
I believe that the contests held in these typoes of venues are for the types of people they attract.

If people like that sort of thing then they are certainly allowed to do that.
These are the folks that always always always have something to prove.

Chokeyouout, I can sit back confidently and be comfortable in the knowledge that I have been given and be comfortable with my abilty to apply some of it when necessary to defend myself or someone else who cannot.

You can puff your chest and badmouth traditional styles as much as you like. People will still practice and learn and develop. And your character reflection will remain the same :)
anyway, try to temper the language a bit and be less prvocative in your rants about rolling ok.

And would you mind posting your uhb,nhb,ufc, cpb and what not posts to the "Other Related arts" forum, you really don't have much to say about Kung Fu and you exhibit not much knowledge of it in history or application. Seeing as this is a _Kung Fu_ forum we really don't need to have someone screaming in the corner about their agenda when there is good Kung Fu talk to be talked! :)

Thanks it would be appreciated

peace

Kung Lek

Ky-Fi
05-04-2001, 05:32 PM
Well said, Kung Lek.

Boulder Student
05-05-2001, 01:16 AM
The best athlete
wants his opponent at his best
The best general
enters the mind of his enemy.
The best businessman
serves the communal good.
The best leader
follows the will of the people.

All of them embody
the virtue of non-competition.
Not tht they don't love to compete,
but they do it in the spirit of play.
In this they are like children
and in harmony with the Tao.

Chokeyouout,
Of course you shouldn't talk about the toughest mix martial artists on the kung fu board. They aren't interested in play or the best. They want to retreat to the cozy cocoon of tradition. Perverted Confucianism I call it.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

Watchman
05-05-2001, 02:14 AM
http://www15.brinkster.com/if13/hopeless.jpg

old jong
05-05-2001, 02:17 AM
:D :D :D

C'est la vie!

rogue
05-05-2001, 02:41 AM
What I'd like to be watching and where.
http://www.ultralounge.com/images/m_bar_thumb.jpg

Sincerly,
One more for the Road Rogue

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Budokan
05-05-2001, 04:16 AM
LOL @ Watchman...

Anyway:

There go those "shoot and mount" boys again, thinking that everyone (along with themselves) has something to prove about their style.

What a yawner. You know, they keep harping about how they aren't "arrogant" but that's kind of hard to defend with the obvious intolerance they have towards any other style than theirs.

If you don't want to be perceived as arrogant, then don't act that way. Or, at least, go for laughs, which would be appreciated by everybody on this board.

Finally, I can't think of a better place for the "shoot and mount" crowd to be exiled than the "Other Related Arts" forum.

Look, there goes another tumbleweed...! :D

K. Mark Hoover

Mr. Nemo
05-05-2001, 08:23 AM
The reason I get frusturated is because I like NHB. I try to train as realistically as I can.

But you guys set up these straw men representing kung fu stylists and tear them down when they really have very little to do with who we actually are. Also, do you have any idea how frusturating it is to make a coherent point to someone that only speaks in biting sarcasm?

I realize that you're not only talking to me personally, you're talking to the kung fu community at large on this board, but I still think you're painting with way too broad a brush.

chokeyouout
05-05-2001, 10:41 PM
MUAHAHAHA

<img SRC=http://www.bjj.org/figures/choke-anim.gif>

Kristoffer
05-07-2001, 08:51 AM
uhmm, chokeyouout...
are u allowed to post gay-porn in here? That's just so lame man. :rolleyes: :p

~K~
the super-duper supreme

chokeyouout
05-07-2001, 11:58 AM
I'm sorry if you see two guys fighting on the ground and your mind is flooded with thoughts of gay porn.I'm sure a psychologist or counselor can help you with your sexual identity.It's okay if you are gay.If you feel a inner conflict with your sexual desires you need to resolve that somewhere else.This is a kung fu forum.

<img SRC=http://www.bjj.org/figures/choke-anim.gif>

Ryu
05-07-2001, 05:49 PM
I'm a grappler and I don't want to fight in NHB competitions, etc. Don't have the passion for it.
I still roll with different people, and do it with full resistence, I spar full contact, and work with judo guys, BJJ blues, and even some of the higher names like Carlos Machado, Rickson Gracie, etc.
But.....I don't want to get in a cage and fight. And I'm never going to. ;) The reason being because I don't want to. Not that I'm too "deadly" or that I can't do certain targets, etc. My personality is not competitive in that way. I'd rather just train hard, roll hard, and fight hard.
What amazes me is that some people can't say "Hey, bro I don't want to fight professionally. I don't think I'd like it." and instead say "my art is too deadly, they don't allow eye strikes, etc"

If you don't want to fight in a cage say so. No shame in that, I don't want to. :)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura

old jong
05-07-2001, 06:13 PM
I think the same basicely.This fighting business is not for everybody.First off all,I'm maybe not young enough for these kinds of contest.It would not be fair for the other guys!! :D
I train and practice my wing chun seriously and I KNOW how effective it can be in a self-defense situation and It's enough for me.I dont need all this trouble to prove myself to anybody or to have that kind of short lived "glory"!...This is a game for professionnals who are willing to take the risks inherents to any fighting sports

C'est la vie!

Braden
05-08-2001, 10:44 PM
From Mike Patterson's Koushou Page:

The following is a listing of accomplishments of Shr Fu Mike Patterson’s Chinese KuoShu Full Contact Teams, since his re-involvement in such training in 1994. All of places depicted below were achieved in World, International, National and Regional Full Contact forums open to all styles and ranks.

The fighters are hand picked students of Shr Fu Patterson and are trained in Classical Hsing I Chuan. Some of them also have Pa Kua and Chen Style Tai Chi training under Shr Fu Patterson as well. We wanted to let people know that the Internal Arts are dynamic and effective fighting systems! As they are well known for in Asia.. This, in addition to having tremendous health benefits to the practitioners involved with their study.

2000 International Tournament
Team took 2nd Place Overall
7 Person Team; 5 Men, 2 Women
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s 195 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel
Men’s Unlimited 1st place Step Taylor
Women’s 105 lb. 1st place Ali Cheng
Women’s 145 lb. 1st place Cathy Reedy

1999 National Tournament
Team took 2nd Place Overall
7 Person Team; 5 Men, 2 Women
Men’s 165 lb. 3rd place Brandon Drouillard
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s 195 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel
Women’s 105 lb. 1st place Ali Cheng
Women’s 145 lb. 1st place Cathy Reedy

1999 German International Invitational
One Placed in Finals
1 Person Team; 1 Man
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini

1998 International Tournament
Six Placed in Finals
10 Person Team; 8 Men, 2 Women
Men’s 154 lb. 2nd place Michael Corradino
Men’s 187 lb. 2nd place Mario Mancini
Men’s 195 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel
Men’s 210+ lb. 2nd place Steven Zamiara
Women’s 105 lb. 2nd place Ali Cheng
Women’s 145 lb. 1st place Cathy Reedy

1998 German International Invitational
One Placed in Finals
1 Person Team; 1 Man
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s Royal Rumble 1st place Mario Mancini

1996 World Tournament
U.S. Team took 3rd Place Overall
6 Men came from this Institution
Men’s 176 lb. 3rd place Mario Mancini
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel
Men’s 210 lb. 3rd place Bob Reynolds

1996 International Tournament
Team took 1st Place Overall
8 Person Team; 8 Men
Men’s 132 lb. 1st place J.P. Hickman
Men’s 154 lb. 1st place [name omitted]
Men’s 165 lb. 1st place Doug Gargaro
2nd place Robert Marzo
Men’s 176 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel
Men’s 210 lb. 2nd place Bob Reynolds

1995 National Tournament
Team took 1st Place Overall
10 Person Team; 8 Men, 2 Women
Men’s 132 lb. 1st place J.P. Hickman
Men’s 154 lb. 1st place [name omitted]
2nd place Tony Acaldo
Men’s 165 lb. 1st place Doug Gargaro
Men’s 176 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel
Women’s 132 lb. 2nd place Anna Lagios
Women’s 154 lb. 2nd place Jaime Morgan

1995 West Coast Regional Tournament
No team scoring awarded
7 Person Team; 7 Men
Men’s 143 lb. 1st place Michael Corradino
2nd place J.P. Hickman
Men’s 154 lb. 1st place [name omitted]
2nd place Rocky Valentine
3rd place James Lynch
Men’s 176 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s 187 lb. 1st place Alex Shpigel

1994 International Tournament
Team took 3rd Place Overall
7 Person Team; 7 Men
Men’s 143 lb. 2nd place Michael Corradino
Men’s 154 lb. 3rd place [name omitted]
Men’s 165 lb. 2nd place William Revak
Men’s 176 lb. 1st place Mario Mancini
Men’s 187 lb. 2nd place Bob Reynolds
3rd place Louie Addeo
Men’s 210 lb. 3rd place John Butcher
Men’s 210+ lb. 3rd place Paul Smith

Just an example of the people who train hard every day to compete against anyone who will fight them. This is reality. Which is clearly far from the ignorant griping that goes on here.

Mr. Nemo
05-09-2001, 11:33 PM
Hey, where can I get more information on the kuoshou tournaments? Including the rules? I had a link a while ago, but I've forgotten it and how I found it.

Braden
05-09-2001, 11:51 PM
Last time I checked, the official governing body's webpage was dead. You can ask about it on Mike Patterson's board, or talk to whoever does it locally.

The rules can vary a bit in regional events, but the international ones are where it's at. No groin, cerebellum, or throat hits. No gouging, biting, or head butting. I'm not sure how or when they stop things when they go to the ground. Lots of elbows, knees, grappling, throws, and takedowns though.

edziak
05-21-2001, 10:29 AM
"They just sit back and wish in their minds that they will never have to unleash the power of kung fu!"

I thought that was kind of funny actualy.

edziak
05-21-2001, 10:43 AM
"They just sit back and wish in their minds that they will never have to unleash the power of kung fu!"

I found that kind of funny actualy.

DragonzRage
05-23-2001, 09:52 AM
Well, as most of you would hopefully know by now, i speak from the MMA perspective. All I have to say is that not all MMA practitioners are internet trolls, disrespectful crap talkers or testosterone raging sadists screaming for blood while watching UFC all the time...cuz they are not that, anymore than all kung fu practitioners are closet wu$ who are afraid to really fight and have to put themselves in denial with the illusion of humble deadliness. To be honest, i am of the opinion that much of traditional CMA is not as practical or functional as modern mixed martial arts, but I'm not here to pound that idea down everyone's throat. I'm just here to exchange knowledge and get a taste of other people's ideas. And I could personally care less whether or not kung fu people fight in MMA competition or not. I am no one to tell someone else what they should and should not be doing. Hey, to each their own.

In defense of the traditionalists here, I will say that it is simply too easy for an armchair grappler/kickboxer to come here and say, "See? My art is better than your's. People from my style fight but you guys don't!" If you're not the one fighting, then what is the point in saying this? Does that somehow make you smarter by default? You can't conveniently hide behind a real fighter's record simply because a kung fu guy doesn't have the same luxury. If you've never fought, then you've never fought. Whether you practice Bjj or kung fu, you still don't know jacksh!t until you yourself have been tested under fire. Only a coward hides behind another person's success. Personally, I like to force myself to at least compete on the amateur level just to gain real experience, but I could never see myself doing it full time as a professional fighter. I'm just not that kind of a person. What few fights I have had have made me nervous and uncomfortable going in, and left me sore for days afterward. When it gets down to really facing another strong, skilled opponent for a full contact fight, I tend to believe that at that point it is just as much psychological as it is technical. In other words, if you are the type of person to crack under pressure then you won't be a good fighter no matter what kind of techniques you have learned through training. Hell, I know guys who have great MA skill, but openly admit that when they face a real confrontation they freeze up and virtually forget every technique they've ever learned. So the way i see it, regardless of style non-fighters are in no position to accuse other non-fighters.

"Courage is the resistance of fear, the mastery of fear...not the absence of fear."

Highlander
05-23-2001, 04:43 PM
DragonRage ...... Well, said. :)

chokeyouout2
06-16-2001, 01:45 AM
Wheres the guy who wrote this?

Guardian
06-30-2001, 04:18 PM
The funny thing is most Kung Fu guys go on how MMA does not mean anything yet alot of TRUE:P Kung Fu masters also work in the movies either as actors or Choregoraphers.

One thing I find funny is how I can show alot of my Kung Fu mates a UFC and they have no interest and lots of criticisms,yet they will go on endlessly how Hidden Deagon and Crouching Tiger is a marvel and has improved their Kung Fu training or how thats what they have been talking about in their school. Or after watching a Jackie Chan movie they adopt the techniques and drill them religiously...

I wonder why that is ?

Kym

omegapoint
07-01-2001, 06:00 AM
A professional athlete who does nothing but shoot baskets all day, throw footballs around, kick soccer balls for 12-14 hrs. each day or wrestles for a living should be able to beat a layman or part-time enthusiast of any of these sports. They could probably kick your ass,too, because all they do all day 24-7, 365, is hone their body into a fine-tuned machine. Plus, innately many of them are bigger, faster and stronger than the average person, let alone martial artist.

Yes, MMA (I can't use NHB as this is a misnomer used to fan excitement and intrigue about a sport) is a SPORT. Western boxing is a sport. Muay Thai is sport. An example for me, an empirical form of evidence, was my fortune to have grown up with many Muay Thai kickboxers who trained in Thailand, became Buddhist monks and returned to my school Thai "warriors". They had names like Siddachai and Somchat, and many of them were large guys (6 ft+, and 200+ lbs.), but many of them couldn't hold their water in a street fight against reality fighters who knew how to win in a street scenario. PERIOD.

The competitive culture in America has created an atmosphere of insecurity and low self-esteem, where miswired individuals with inferiority complexes feel they need to prove their worth and strength as a man. This false sense of superiority many Thai boxers/boxers feel is the result of TV and not reality. In short our culture increases the street efficacy of these arts. If you don't know what I'm saying then good, that's one more person that I'm more informed than!

Most of these guys eat, think and drink competition, and don't have any other job or hobbies (not all of course). As furious as MMA may seem they are but a shadow of the reality of self-preservation. I thought BJJ and grappling was the isht? How did things become so conviluted that now people in this sport are claiming to train MMA? Doesn't that imply that you're learning the stand-up as well as the groundwork? Well isn't that what a true traditional MA teaches. Granted there can be many lessons learned from our grappling brothers (I'm a Caique JJ practitioner, also), but the truth is I don't want to go to the ground in the street, ever. If I do then I'll end it the fastest way possible. I won't use my patience and sensitivity to bait someone into a finishig move. I'll just occlude their Carotids with my free hand.

When are you gonna ever face someone of John Marsh's or Rickson's abilities on the street? Most of those guys are honorable men that are going to avoid the legality of a street fight, just like 90% of martial artist. So stop with this high school wrestler's mentality of "my style can whupp' yours" (and I saw many a wrestler in HS taken out by poo-butts)!

There may be a time when you need to use your vast grappling repertoire in the streets, and your test will come there. If you wanna play human pit bull (and that's what the smarter people in power want) to make sorry sap-suckers rich, and you a few brain cells stupider, then fine. Just don't try and pass it off as martial arts. Call it what it is: Narcissism bordering on sociopathic tendencies.

The only competition you have is with yourself...
Peace!!!

BAI HE
07-01-2001, 05:19 PM
Wisely put Omega!!!
The goal of my MA is to preserve my health and protect myself. I've had my share of fights and conflict. Sometimes I've felt worse when I've one a fight.
Won't fight and can't fight are two different
things. I measure myself against myself. I can always push and do better. That's what it's all about for me, pushing my limits past my limitations in thought and action.

I AM ABOUT DEFYING MY "CAN'T DO" CONVENTIONAL SELF-MENTALITY!!!

matt
07-16-2001, 05:52 AM
wondering if these guys know there doing kung fu and dont even know it

matt bugg

UberShaman
07-17-2001, 02:29 AM
I just read omegapoints reply, I think he eloquently stated what a lot of others tried to say before him. He's exactly right!!

Royal Dragon
09-07-2001, 04:42 PM
How many MMA's fought in the Kou shou tournys in Baltimore this year? Did any win? What about San Shou and San Da? I don't recall an Gracies EVER winning in those events. I don't recall any Gracies ever winning in a Muy Tai competitione either.

I think, each group wether it be BJJ, Muy Tai or Traditional Kung Fu, tends to fight in thier own arenas, and very rarely cross over.

To say "Yup, the MMA figts are over and Guess what? Not a SINGLE Kung Fu guy even entered", is just stupid, because none of you ever enter any other cometitions but your own either!!!

When you fight in the Kou Shou, San Shou/San DA, Tae Kwon Do, K1, Pankration, Val Tudo, Maddison Square garden, Midwest Kick Boxing circiute and Summo, not to mention Pride, Greco Roman Wrestling (What ever circutes they have) and English Boxing circutes etc........ AND WIN!!, THEN you can get up here and complain no Kung Fu guys entered your fights.


Just a Thought


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

nobody
09-07-2001, 05:13 PM
i would just say, that how can you mock what you have not taken, i highly doubt you have taken any form of kung-fu. granted, i have never taken BJJ but that doesnt mean i will say something bad about it without knowing anything about it. but your attitude, and posts around here not only show how stupid and ignorant you are, but also gives a bad name to your style of martial art. because if all the guys there are like you, i cant see why anyone would want to learn that style. then again you dont learn arogance, you are born with it.

SifuAbel
09-07-2001, 06:56 PM
What do you expect from a red headed step child.

I

chokeyouout2
09-17-2001, 05:55 PM
With over fifty fighting venues available, I wonder why the most frequently trained Martial Art won't enter any fighting contests outside of the first couple of UFC's?

Braden
09-17-2001, 09:51 PM
Another koushu contest done, and not a single BJJ guy even placed. I wonder why these so-called reality fighters are so afraid of reality.

Read between the lines.

chokeyouout2
09-17-2001, 10:18 PM
What is kousho?And by the way, it's rare to see a "BJJ" man in MMA.Everyone is crosstrained.

chokeyouout2
09-17-2001, 10:43 PM
My point is that there are so many venues for fighting.The number has literally skyrocketed since the archaic days of the UFC.I'm truly wondering why no traditionalist has found the time to enter a NHB style tournament.

Braden
09-17-2001, 10:46 PM
What koushu is has allready been documented on this very thread. Hopefully you're not commenting on something that you haven't even read, if you expect to be taken seriously.

chokeyouout2
09-17-2001, 11:22 PM
So what are the rules in Kyuoso?Whats the format,weightclasses and who has fought in these tournaments?i see a bunch of results but no reference to what was happening.It could of been a chili cookoff for all I know.Thats fine but were talking about fighting.

SifuAbel
09-18-2001, 01:06 AM
This thread is retarded and gay.

Move on.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Braden
09-18-2001, 01:33 AM
Congratulations on approaching 400 posts on something which is of zero consequence to your life.

P.S. Answers to all of those questions were contained on the same post that contained the results which you are commenting on, therefore, I assume, the same post that you read.

chokeyouout2
09-18-2001, 02:36 AM
I'm genuinely curious.If you don't want to answer thats fine.

Here's some questions

1.Gloves
2.Rounds
3.Rules
4.Money

Just a few to get you started.If you feel like obliging my questions.

chokeyouout2
09-18-2001, 02:38 AM
abel

Your response is unique and well constructed.

Jaguar Wong
09-19-2001, 12:22 AM
KUOSHU FULL-CONTACT LEI TAI FIGHTING RULES

Contestants will fight on a 24 square foot, normally two-foot high lei tai platform.

Competitors must use mandatory designated style headgear with facemask, designated Kuoshu open finger gloves, mouthpiece and groin cup. Competitors will wear a standard mat or martial art shoe. If competitor does not have a martial art shoe, both competitors will fight barefoot. No additional body protection is allowed, including shin or arm pads, wraps of any type on hand, foot, joints, etc., unless authorized by the attending physician on site for any injury.

There will be three rounds. Each round lasts two minutes with a 1-minute rest in between rounds. The victor must win two out of the three maximum rounds. Preliminary elimination and semi-final rounds may be shortened due to time constraints, at the discretion of the tournament director.

Points will be scored by each of 5 corner judges. At the end of each round, each judge will declare a winner for that round. The winner of the match must win two out of the three rounds.

Throws must be clearly executed within three seconds from the time the throw has begun. If both fighters fall, the throw is void and scores no points. Any type of throw may be used as long as the initiating fighter does not touch the lei tai at all with any part of his or her body during the course of the throw. If he does, the throw is void and no points are scored.

Each fighter may have a maximum of two corner people. There will be no coaching from the corners allowed during the rounds. This or her rule will be strictly enforced and coaching from the corners during rounds may result in the deduction of points from the fighter or disqualification of the fighter.

Any team coach disputing the results of a match and wishing to have an arbitration of a match for any reason must notify the head referee verbally within 30 minutes of the match. The team coach must then file a written request for arbitration along with a $300 arbitration fee to the tournament director. If the arbitration is settled in favor of the arbitrating team, the fighter shall receive a refund of his or her registration fee.

At the beginning of each match, the referee will signal the opponents to bow to the head table. The referee will then signal opponents to bow to each other and set the opponents to fight.
If a fighter has a "bye", they must still show up at the lei tai in their designated corner prepared to fight in gear. Referee will call them to the lei tai and designate them the winner of the match.

If a fighter is injured during the match and the referee decides they need medical attention, the fighter must be able to return to their corner. If they can not do so, the match goes to their opponent. They shall have 5 minutes to be declared ready to fight again. If no, the match goes to their opponent.

All rules are in accordance with the International Chinese Kuoshu Federation Rules.

FULL CONTACT SCORING:


Contestant executes clear punch or kick to head, body, or legs (above the knee) - one point. Point may be scored with an open or closed hand.

There will be no points scored for kicks below the knee unless executed as a sweep, knocking opponent to the lei tai which scores two points.

Contestant executes clear punch or kick that knocks opponent down - scores one point for the punch or kick and two points for the fall to the Lei Tai.

Without falling or touching the Lei Tai with any part of the body, contestant successfully throws opponent to the Lei Tai - scores two points. If both competitors fall, no points will be scored.

Contestant forces or throws opponent off Lei Tai - scores three points. If both competitors fall off of Lei Tai together, no points are scored. If contestant clearly executes a punch or kick that knocks opponent off Lei Tai an additional point will be scored for the punch or kick.

Contestant loses balance and falls to Lei Tai or touches any part of his body to Lei Tai - one point deducted from his or her score.

Contestants will accumulate points during each round.

Three knockdowns in one round constitute disqualification of the fighter who is knocked down.

FULL CONTACT PENALTIES:

Contact to the eyes, throat, back of head or groin is illegal.

Kicks to knee joints are illegal.
Techniques using the head, knee or elbows are not allowed in Unites States competitions.

The first violation of the rules results in a warning. On the second violation, referees will deduct one point from the competitor's score. On the third violation, referees will disqualify the competitor.

Serious infractions of the rules will result in immediate disqualification.

Competitors who maliciously hurt their opponents will be held liable for any damages or injuries. Executive referee has full authority to stop the fight anytime for safety or any other reason.

Jaguar Wong

Jaguar Wong
09-19-2001, 12:25 AM
As a side note:
Knees and Elbows are allowed in most international/world level competitions as well as some US Koushu federations.

Jaguar Wong

chokeyouout2
09-19-2001, 07:08 AM
I am not sure what you reading level is so I will try to make this as comprehensible as possible.

Lets identify some basic premises."MMA" is a acronym for Mixed Martial Arts.Are you guys following me still?That means that ANYONE of any style can enter.This being said, no style is limited to or hindered by the fighting format because of the open door policy of the promoters.Now lets adress your kyuosho tournament.I'll begin by comparing the differences in attire of the UFC or Pride or King of the Cage or Rings or Extreme Challenge yadayada.There is no padding in these events. By kyuosho"s stated rules it's nowhere near full contact.Not even close.Let's discuss judging.In case of a decision in real full contact fighting advantages are given for agressiveness,submission attempts,ground control,and punches and kicks thrown.No points are used.When I think of points, I think of sport jiu jitsu or tae kwondo wich are both a far cry from full contact fighting.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How many MMA's fought in the Kou shou tournys in Baltimore this year? Did any win? What about San Shou and San Da? I don't recall an Gracies EVER winning in those events. I don't recall any Gracies ever winning in a Muy Tai competitione either. [/quote]

This statement struck me as really unintelligent.If I have to explain to you why you won't see a MMA fighter in a padded Kung Fu whatever tournament than theres no point in having a conversation with you.As far as the Gracies go, well they have all been beat up.But at least they had the heart to enter where all styles are welcome and no rules adjust the fighters style.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another koushu contest done, and not a single BJJ guy even placed. I wonder why these so-called reality fighters are so afraid of reality. [/quote]

Reality in pads?I thought you were brighter than that.I'm shocked Braden.

It seems to me that you two are in the olden days of the ufc.No Gracie is champion of any fighting realm as we speak.Well kids, there is the facts.Have I fought in Pride, ummmm no.Is there a cage at my school and will you see me in ther "banging" with anybody who gets in there?You gad **** skippy.You should pull your heads out of the sand and watch the next MMA contest to be a little more informed making it easier for everyone to learn about whats made available in the martial arts world.
BTW thanks for the rundown on the rules Jaguar.

Anarcho
09-19-2001, 06:04 PM
"Let's discuss judging.In case of a decision in real full contact fighting advantages are given for agressiveness,submission attempts,ground control,and punches and kicks thrown.No points are used.When I think of points, I think of sport jiu jitsu or tae kwondo wich are both a far cry from full contact fighting."

And boxing, of course.

Jaguar Wong
09-19-2001, 06:53 PM
choke,
no problem, I just thought I should post them.

I just wanted to point out that before you make it sound like the kuoshu guys are wearing body armor, or something. The gloves they wear are similar to the ones you see the MMA guys wear (perhaps they have a bit more padding, but they don't wear the boxing gloves that boxers, Muay Thai, and San Shou guys wear). They also wear headgear, but I think that's to reduce the risk of cuts when employing knees, elbows, and kicks to the head, because they don't use knee, elbow, or foot/shin padding.

I know you're mocking the point system, and sometimes I agree that it's not really showing the toughest guys, but it is a full contact event, and there are some awsome fighters in the sport (as well as in San Shou). The competitors usually have to get past the strikes to get their throws/takedowns in there, which is what most guys will use to score points (and they have to remain standing to score, so you will see some pretty impressive high amplitude throw attempts). Although they also use some pretty stiff body/head and leg strikes to soften the guys up as well.

Not that I'm on either side (I am actually a big Pride and UFC fan), it's just that I think there's actually more similarites in what people want to achive with their training. All this anger, and insult hurling doesn't get us anywhere.

Jaguar Wong

Braden
09-19-2001, 08:22 PM
I watch and enjoy UFC, thanks.

Wearing grappling gloves and a light boxer's helmet is hardly being covered in pads. I don't like points either, but how else are you going to judge a win in a striking contest that doesn't KO? If you have any ideas, I'd like to hear them.

The only weakness of koushu is that there's no groundfighting. But just like there's grappling-only tournaments for BJJ guys, koushu is a standing-only tournament for strikers. And the best one, so far as I can tell. Sanshou, muay thai, etc - none of these allow the full arrange of techniques.

The only point here was, that if you are correct about the superiority of the methods you train, than people trained in those methods should be able to clean up in this kind of contest. Aren't Muay Thai and Boxing supposed to be used by MMA guys because they're "clearly the best stand-up striking systems"? Well, boxing and muay thai guys (and MMA guys) enter koushu, and get their asses handed to them. Clearly something is going on. I propose that people trained in muay thai and boxing cannot handle skilled offensive throwing and sweeps. What's your proposition?

Based on my proposition, your argument about the inferiority of our methods would be false. Which is all that was posted in the first place. BTW, I acknowledge my style doesn't prepare me for the ground and I train in Machado BJJ. I guess that makes me a MMA. ;)

chokeyouout2
09-19-2001, 08:24 PM
"Mocking" is a harsh word.I was also wondering why fighting on the ground was not addressed in the rules stated.I know their not wrapped in mattresses but tfor someone to say reality in the same sentence as these tournaments is asinine.

Braden
09-19-2001, 08:38 PM
It was actually used mockingly. People using reality to describe any contest format are asinine.

chokeyouout2
09-19-2001, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only weakness of koushu is that there's no groundfighting. [/quote]

In the very next paragraph..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only point here was, that if you are correct about the superiority of the methods you train, than people trained in those methods should be able to clean up in this kind of contest. [/quote]

Do you see the conflict?

Thats why there is MMA.So anyone can enter without being limited technique wise by the rules.Why in Gods name would a mixed martial artist enter a single dimensional tournament like kusho while looking to define himself as a complete fighter?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well, boxing and muay thai guys (and MMA guys) enter koushu, and get their asses handed to them. Clearly something is going on. [/quote]

Would a Mut Thai fighter enter a no gi grappling tournament?Would a boxer enter ina sambo tournament?Iv'e said about five times now that MMA tournaments incorporate all styles while giving no favor to any competitor via the ruling format.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Based on my proposition, your argument about the inferiority of our methods would be false. [/quote]

Emotions can distort your memory.I never attacked the effectiveness of anyones style.I merely questioned why alot ob CMA's don't enter in MMA contests.

Braden
09-19-2001, 08:50 PM
"Why in Gods name would a mixed martial artist enter a single dimensional tournament..."

I know plenty of MMA guys who enter grappling-only tournaments.

"while looking to define himself as a complete fighter?"

Why does someone do bench presses when he wants his whole body to be strong? Because alot of people believe that it's valuable to work on various specific attributes to improve them, in order to achieve the larger goal of being well-rounded.

"Would a Mut Thai fighter enter a no gi grappling tournament?Would a boxer enter ina sambo tournament?"

In both of those examples you're suggesting a 'striker' enter a 'grappling' contest. In my argument, I mentioned 'strikers' entering 'striking' contests. The difference and practical impact are pretty obvious.

"Emotions can distort your memory.I never attacked the effectiveness of anyones style.I merely questioned why alot ob CMA's don't enter in MMA contests."

Your implication was obvious. BTW, I'm completely unemotional about this, as I presume, are you.

Knifefighter
09-19-2001, 10:04 PM
Hmm… I agree a bit with both of you guys. The idea of entering a "one dimensional" event in order to sharpen and test a specific set of skills is very valid. Competing as a boxer and Muay Thai fighter can help MMA fighting ability, as will competing in grappling only tourneys.

On the other hand, I wouldn't consider the Muay Thai and boxers entering these tournaments to be entering a "striking" competition. I would argue that the throws and takedowns make these grappling (minus the groundfighting) events also.

I do think that MMA events are the closest you can get to competing using a complete range of techniques.

Braden
09-19-2001, 10:14 PM
kf - I agree completely with what you just said.

In practice, I don't make any distinction between 'grappling' and 'striking' , but rather between 'standing' and 'groundfighting' . This is based on my understanding of what principles each group does or doesn't share, and how this effects your training.

chokeyouout2
09-19-2001, 11:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another koushu contest done, and not a single BJJ guy even placed. I wonder why these so-called reality fighters are so afraid of reality. [/quote]

If you refer to a "fighting" tournament that dosen't allow ground fighting you are severely confused.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know plenty of MMA guys who enter grappling-only tournaments.

[/quote]
Ask these mma guys if they presume they just fought in a realistic fighting tournament.They will tell you of course not.Conversely, you stated that kuosho or whatever is realistic.Are you following me?

Maybe you'll unsderstand this.Would a KF blackbelt enter a submission grappling tournament?Of course not.Would it be correct to say he is not a good fighter?Of course not.

For the seventh time,

Thats is why we have Mixed Martial Arts tournaments.To find out what single style or styles win in a real fight situation.My question was again, why don't any traditionalist enter in MMA competitions?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your implication was obvious. [/quote]

It seems to me that the implication of KF being inferior only seems to arise when the question of why no kf guys in mma was proposed.I asked for reasons why they didn't and you replied I was implying something that you have concluded for yourself about kf.You almost answered the question for your self and didn't realize it.

Braden
09-20-2001, 12:00 AM
"Conversely, you stated that kuosho or whatever is realistic."

No I didn't.

"Thats is why we have Mixed Martial Arts tournaments.To find out what single style or styles win in a real fight situation."

Looks like you're the one calling tournaments realistic.

Knifefighter understood my point, so it's clear that I wasn't completely incompetent at making it. Beyond that, the discussion has degraded to the point of you directly putting words in my mouth then basing your arguments on them. So I'm not really interested in this conversation anymore.

chokeyouout2
09-20-2001, 01:46 AM
These are not words I have put in your mouth.They are direct quotes from YOU.Maybe you should read what you write before you post it.All I did was read your bs and cut and paste your statements.If you feel thats putting words in your mouth you are well I don't know.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder why these so-called reality fighters are so afraid of reality.[/quote]<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just an example of the people who train hard every day to compete against anyone who will fight them. This is reality. [/quote] You said this in direct reference to kuosho tournaments.Either your mentally disabled or a troll.You still haven't answered my initial question but have continued to spew irrelevent BS.I'm done.

P.S.Nice mental cop out.

chokeyouout2
09-20-2001, 05:46 AM
that was a little harsh in hindsight.My apologies.

Braden
09-20-2001, 09:31 AM
Don't worry about it. I don't think anyone takes what is said here too seriously. :)

Watchman
09-20-2001, 07:04 PM
I do!!

Taoist Disciple
09-22-2001, 06:06 PM
Well said Mr. Nemo.

Finally. Someone with some sense. And Boulder Student. I've just ordered Tao te Ching.

I don't write things here.

chokeyouout2
09-28-2001, 08:13 PM
None entered this one either..

Aint nobody talkin when i'm talkin so shut the fu9k up!

Xebsball
09-29-2001, 02:34 AM
It's because i was busy downloading a dragon ball z episode i missed last week.

I have my priorities.

-------------------------
http://www.infinitydog.com/technicalvirgin/commercials.html

Watchman
09-29-2001, 03:06 AM
Zuffa told me I couldn't enter because I didn't know how to properly stall over and over again in the same position, keep running away from lackluster striking, and defensively ride out the entire fight until the crowd started booing.

Sorry Choke. :(

Oh yeah, and I'm too deadly. :rolleyes: :D

P.S. Do you ever find your way up to Vegas?

SifuAbel
09-29-2001, 09:50 AM
vasco did you enter? Have you EVER been outside of your township?

BTW which one are you in that picture?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Braden
09-29-2001, 09:43 PM
Vasco - I didn't cop out of this conversation, as you've obsessively suggested on a bunch of unrelated threads on other forums. I simply no longer had any interest in it. There's only so many times you can repeat the same thing over and over again before you get bored.

However, since you seem to have honestly misunderstood me and even apologized for being a spazz (despite your roid rage over in the general forum) I'll clarify one last time.

"Reality" is a word which can be used to refer to lots of things. For example, the reality of the sun rising in the morning. It does not necessarily refer to the realism of koushu contests.

Both of the quotes of mine you supplied used the word reality. Neither of them used the word to refer to the realism of a koushu contest, as you believed they did.

Quote one: "I wonder why these so-called reality fighters are so afraid of reality."

The original argument I was replying to was: no kungfu guy entered my favorite martial contest, therefore they are afraid of reality. I replied: no BJJ guy entered MY favorite martial contest, therefore they are afraid of reality. This is a mainstay of rational discussion. I used a premise that was verifiable (no BJJ guy entered my favorite martial contest), to generate a conclusion you would not accept (they are afraid of reality), using YOUR logic. Since you can't dispute the premise, and you can't accept the conclusion, you would be forced to admit that your logic was flawed. Or just call me names, I guess. You opted for door #2.

Quote two: "Just an example of the people who train hard every day to compete against anyone who will fight them. This is reality."

In the english language, the word 'this' is used to refer to something just mentioned. For example: Sally says, "Do you like your dinner?" Sam replies, "Yes, this is very good." In this case, the word 'this' refers to Sam's dinner, and not to a koushu competition. Please apply the same logic to my quote.

I'll do it for you. The THIS in my quote refers to 'just an example of the people who train hard every day to compete...' Therefore, the reality I am talking about is 'people who train hard every day to compete...' and NOT the realism of a koushu competition. The beginning of that post is an elaborate and verifiable example of this fact, rather than me simply stating it. It was posted in direct opposition to your claim that 'kungfu guys do not train hard every day to compete,' which, clearly is fantasy. As opposed to reality.

chokeyouout2
10-03-2001, 06:02 PM
You must have failed logic class.Premises are used to provide complete or partial support for the inferred conclusion.If you ever took the class, try and remember the fallacy, "straw man".

I'm wondering when you will answer the question I have repeated about ten times on this thread.I'm not interested in kuosho.Too many pads and no groundwork.

The real coclusion is no traditionalists enter any contest where no style is limited by rules.Any participant may enter regardless of whatever.It is the closest to reality to date.Many have tried in the early 90's but failed miserabely.

When you can answer my initial question wich is summarized above, go ahead.I would love to read it.

Aint nobody talkin when i'm talkin so shut the fu9k up!

Shaolin36
10-03-2001, 07:05 PM
Ok, Kung Fu stylist,I mean true kung fu stylist that are trained not only the fighting aspects but the traditional moral value knows that a true master trains kung fu so he doesnt have to fight(or worry about one for that matter)True kung fu stylist also feel no need to show off their skills, with that said, asking a kung fu practioner to sport fight is like asking the stealth bomber to fly as a commercial passenger airliner. It could perform that task and more efficiently than a plane built for that task, but it wasnt built for that purpose, just like kung fu wasnt built for sport fighting, it was developed for survival. KILL OR BE KILLED.

Capish,

Shaolin

Archangel
10-03-2001, 07:34 PM
I just don't understand what puts Kung Fu practioners on there high horse like this. The men who fight in these competitions are not insecure in their morels or inferior in any way. This is a proffesional endeavor utilizing an art that you love. Why have Kyokoshin Kai karate fighters had no problem fighting pro. Boxers, Muay Thai, Brazilian JJ fighters. Honestly, in the history of Kung Fu with it's thousands of practioners has NOBODY wanted to fight for a living? K1 is the richest tournament in Martial arts and is a standup tourney and yet no KF guys.

And yes Vasco is correct, MMA is the event in which a fighter can most clearly demonstrate his techniques. looking at other events:

Boxing - nope, only punching

wrestling - nope, only grappling, so subs.

kickboxing- nope, no grappling, no ground

Sans Shou/Kyoushu - nope, padding and no groundwork

MMA allows almost anything, there is nothing found in any other competition that can't be applied here. This should be where a Kung Fu fighter could shine, and yet no one has stepped up to the plate.

Wongsifu
10-03-2001, 09:03 PM
i would just like for any mma guy to explain how i could win the competition if i were a standup kung fu fighter ?
Short of considerably hurting the guy you just cant win ...
shut up
you cant
i said shut up...

you need to either
a) hurt him badly so he cant continue
b) knock him out , which is not exactly the nicest of things to enter the ring with , im gonna knoc kthe guy out , so i win who cares if he gets a ****en concussion
c) run around avoiding him and hitting him avoiding and hitting until the time runsout or he is tired enough to stop


whilst grapplers can win very simply by their multitude of locks etc...

its like entering a horserace and you are running against the horses because the rules incude things like , in the event that the horse falls down and doesnt make it to the finish line then the human runner wins.

I wonder if we kept the same competition but favoued it for stand up fighters how many grapplers would enter...
things like, the fight is done on a concrete floor , wher kung fu is practised.
groin shots and small joint manipulations are allowed as well as striking "pressure point" such as the temple and back of head.
When a lock is applied and kept on 4 .... seconds the fighters stand up and start again.
The match is won by the person who dominates most rounds.

How will a grappler dominate ? each time he applise the lock he starts from the beggining again...

but thats not real i hear mma cry and whimper

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

SifuAbel
10-03-2001, 09:48 PM
This thread is still gay and childish.

Why do you see mostly JJ people in these events? The answer is simple. It is pure interest. This is where they pledge their allegiance. Its like asking why more JJ guys don't enter TKD events.

Kung fu guys have their own venues and don't even think about things like ufc because they have no INTEREST in being there. There're too busy minding their own events to care. Most venues have a concrete circle of followers. Seldomly do you see much crossover.

Ultimately it has nothing to do with the rules or the politics or bias'. It has nothing to do with groin and throat stuff.(please stop making this an issue).

It hasn't been style against style in ufc for a very long time. Now most of the fighters come from virtually the same circles.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-03-2001, 10:05 PM
I can’t speak for everyone everywhere, but I can give you my point of view from the local events in So Cal with which I have watched and been involved. When these events began, many kung fu practitioners were represented. 99.9% of the time they lost. Some of them quit and never competed in these events again. Others began training in other arts such as BJJ and Muay Thai that addressed their weaknesses. Although many current fighters have a background in a traditional art, most now train a mixture of BJJ/submission wrestling, Boxing/Muay Thai, and folk/freestyle/greco-roman wrestling.

As far as the groin shots, eye jabs, biting argument, as far as the fights I have seen and been involved with, the guy who wins the fights without these things involved usually wins the fight when these are allowed. When you throw on concrete, the guy who doesn’t know how to grapple usually gets slammed hard. As far as only allowing ground fighting or joint locks for a certain period of time, that makes no sense at all. That’s like saying you have to start on the ground after you throw three or four punches.
n

Jaguar Wong
10-03-2001, 11:01 PM
"As far as only allowing ground fighting or joint locks for a certain period of time, that makes no sense at all. That’s like saying you have to start on the ground after you throw three or four punches."

Actually that's like saying, "If you land a punch and your opponent is down for the count, then we wait until he wakes up, and start over." :)

When you have a submission locked on, you're giving the guy a chance to submit before something breaks (or passes out in the case of a choke). They represent fight ending (or severe tide shifting) techniques. As far as most Kung Fu guys not being interested, that's true for the most part. But I personally would like to compete someday (but I don't train enough at the moment), and a lot of my Kung Fu brothers do like watching MMA events, even though they don't feel the urge to compete, or even 'represent kung fu'. There's just more important stuff for most people to do.

If my life was teaching and training kung fu, and if winning in competitions like this would increase the amount of money I can make, then you better be sure that I'll train as hardcore as possible in order to enter and compete with the rest of them. But if I just want to teach kung fu to make sure my friends, family and a few dedicated students have some idea of how to protect themselves, then I really wouldn't feel the need to compete, but I would still look toward events like that as a learning experience. That doesn't mean I would immedieately switch to a MMA, or Shooto gym, but I would look harder at the training methods involved (which I have done, and feel that I learned from, personally anyway).

If you look at all the sport fighting venues today, MMA is probably the most complete test of fighting skills....leagal venues anyway ;)

I also hear a lot about how the great kung fu masters never felt the need to fight to show their skills, but there were many a "challenge fight" in the old blood and guts era of martial arts where many a kung fu master either challenged, or accepted a challenge to keep his school open, or gain more students in order to make ends meet. Of course there are others that don't feel the need to show off, but every style has both extremes of practitioners.

Jaguar Wong

Braden
10-03-2001, 11:49 PM
Vasco - Your argument is weak enough allready, I don't need to misrepresent it. Per your assertion, no I did not fail that class.

I believe one of the issues that is making it difficult to argue this point with you is that you see a qualitative difference between two groups of tournaments (let's call them MMA tournaments and other tournaments). I don't.

MMA tournaments have rules. MMA tournaments have restrictions. MMA tournaments are not indicative of real life. The same can be said of other tournaments. For any situation, (ie. any set of restrictions and rules) an ideal solution will manifest itself. Assuming alot of things, for the sake of discussion, you guys have found the perfect solution to the situation of [your favorite tournament]. Congratulations. It's not the perfect solution to [my favorite tournament], and neither is the perfect solution to reality.

I do know that if you allow everything but groundfighting, the evidence we have suggests that your solution (that is, your solution minus it's ground-fighting elements) gets it's ass handed to it by my solution. This causes me to imply that my solution + the ground-fighting component of your solution, will be a pretty nice combo. And hey, that's what I train! And I respect the hell out of every other open-minded martial artist who has come up with their own approach. Now, I'll grant you my reasoning is not a perfect implication, and we'll never know until we can make millions of clones and test them rigorously with respect to martial training.

However, I have a better (at least, a realistic) solution. Train hard. Test what you do for yourself. I've done this and found that it works. To me, this is the ideal solution.

I believe that has answered all of your questions. Though you probably still disagree with me about "MMA tournaments" not being qualitatively different than other tournaments. That will have to be the point of difference between us.

To "play along" with you, I don't know why more [what you call traditionalists] don't enter more [what you call MMA] tournaments. I suspect knifefighter's logic is sound. The group of arts you classify as traditional are extremely weak in ground-fighting, and as we say when the Gracie's hit the scene, this is a weakness that is easily abusable in an open tournament format. More people are "coming around" and complementing their arts with other arts (eg. BJJ) in consideration of their weaknesses. Will we ever see a xingyi/BJJ trained man in MMA? I don't know. I think we might. Well he do well? I don't know. I think he might. As I have mentioned, Tim Cartmell is doing quite nicely with bagua/BJJ.

But all of this is pretty much a "moot point" considering all I mentioned above.

P.S. It's worth noting that I don't see any reason to consider things like Muay Thai and BJJ as NOT traditional arts. In the contrary, many BJJ practitioners have exhibited the stereotypical negative aspects of a traditional mindset as much as any other group has.

On a similar note, I don't see any difference between a "MMA" and a "good martial artist." Every martial artist worth their salt throughout history has tried as best as they can to consider their weaknesses and adopt training (from anywhere) to address them.

P.P.S. I agree completely that the viewpoint expressed by that Shaolin fellow is a cop out.

[This message was edited by Braden on 10-04-01 at 02:58 PM.]

Mr. Nemo
10-04-2001, 12:48 AM
I posted this as its own thread once upon a time, in the main forum. Here it is again.

A kung fu fighter could succeed in MMA with the following tools:

---------------------------------------------

1. Practice against live opponents

The movements from the forms are applicable in combat. What's more, to the people who have seen those movements, they're very clever. However, using them in a forms context is not the same as using them in a live context - practice against live, defending, and counterattacking opponents is necessary to learn how to use those movements in a MMA-style situation.

2. Knowledge and ability to defend the takedown.

Generally, fighters who claimed kung fu as their style in MMA in the past have shown themselves to be vulnerable to leg shoots. A kung fu fighter should learn to sprawl to defend these. And, in keeping with #1, these sprawls should be practiced in live situations with live opponents.

3. The ability to escape from the bottom position on the ground should you end up there.

Learning how to create space and escape the bottom is important. Again, practice with live opponents.

4. An understanding of the basic submissions used in submission grappling/wrestling and how to defend them.

It's easier to defend a submission than it is to put one on. It doesn't take that much training in submission defense to double or triple your effectiveness against a bjj sylist, I speak from experience. The guy could still tap me, but it took him three minutes and I could've stood up during that time.

Obtain these tools by studying whatever style necessary, and your chances at winning in MMA are much higher than they were if you weren't doing any of this stuff (if you were, disregard this post).

Numbers 1,2, and 3 are available through kung fu training, number 4 isn't.

--------------------------------------

What I think an MMA guy can't understand about kung fu is that ever since the cultural revolution in china, most kung fu has never been held accountable for its ability to fight.

The people that teach kung fu for fighting is pretty few and far between, and even then, they have to accomodate their student base.

Knifefighter, I know you've been to my bagua class, and even though you were polite, I imagine you weren't overly impressed. Here's why: most of the people in that class are in the forties or older, and most of them aren't particularly interested in fighting. Mostly, they want to do kung fu as a diversion, or for health, or for whatever reason. Why do people play an instrument, or a sport? There's nothing wrong with doing kung fu for these reasons.

Now the instructor of that class can't tell these people to do a bunch of highly aerobic fighting drills, or spar a lot, every class. He does this stuff sparingly. If he did it too often, he would lose students, and since he is genuinely committed to transmitting kung fu to the next generation, he doesn't want to do that.

Now, when someone tells him about a tournament coming up, and that they want to enter it, that's when he takes a certain group and puts them through what he calls the "fighting training." This is very different. It's harder training (not totally brutal, but tougher than the normal class) and about 90% of it is live training of some kind. We spar a lot, and the sparring includes whatever the rules of the tournament include (we train specifically for the tournament). Most importantly - we use kung fu. We don't learn some new fighting style the two weeks before the tournament and use that.

This is the type of training a kung fu stylist needs to go through to learn to fight with kung fu. In my opinion, the kung fu fighters that have been in NHB have not gone through this type of training. Jason DeLucia is a classic example of the guy that does kung fu while training and kickboxes while in the ring. Now, I'm not saying kickboxing is bad, far from it - but if Jason DeLucia trains kung fu instead, that's what he should do inside the ring - only by all appearances, he didn't know how.

I hope my point wasn't lost in all that typing. My point was that kung fu's fighting reputation is harmed by misinformation, a weird attitude towards fighting, the lack of people who are interested in it's fighting side, a lack of people that really know how to use kung fu to fight, a lack of accountability, and a large number of people that are largely frauds and just don't know it.

I know that kung fu hasn't had much success in NHB, but I'm still going to take it (and I'm a pretty smart guy, seriously. I got into college, didn't I?), and prove, even if it's to no one but myself, that it can succeed there. I recognize that some crosstraining will be necessary, but I want to use kung fu to win.

Here's the thing: having now met you, I have a desire to convince you that I'm not an idiot for training kung fu. I've given it a whole lot of thought, am knowledgable about, and enjoy, mixed martial arts, and have done some of what you might call "freestyle submission grappling." Even with all this exposure to MMA, I still choose to train kung fu. I'll defer to ultimately defer to my non-idiocy as a justification for that, since my real reasons are quite complicated and hard to explain.

P.S. I agree with the above post, by Braden.

Archangel
10-04-2001, 04:10 AM
"This causes me to imply that my solution + the ground-fighting component of your solution, will be a pretty nice combo. And hey, that's what I train! And I respect the hell out of every other open-minded martial artist who has come up with their own approach."

I'll be **** Braden, your really one of us. ;)

chokeyouout2
10-04-2001, 10:30 AM
It's become rare to see a "jiu jitsu fighter" enter a UFC or Pride.Your arguments sucks as well as your insults.Go home monkey boy.

Aint nobody talkin when i'm talkin so shut the fu9k up!

chokeyouout2
10-04-2001, 10:38 AM
Why traditionalists don't enter and why you referred to shan shou as being "realistic" and "full contact" compared to events like the UFC,well, I guess I will never get a answer.

None the less, you are a good guy on paper.

Peace

Aint nobody talkin when i'm talkin so shut the fu9k up!

SifuAbel
10-04-2001, 11:34 AM
Vasco you are a fraud. I demand that you point yourself out in the picture you have in your profile. You know the one you got off the internet with Wallid ismail and vitor belfort in the background. And for once can you be a little more imaginative, the low brow knuckle scrapping comments that spew endlessly from that peanut you call a brain are getting quite stale. I can almost see the mucus dripping from your nose. It not a pretty visual I can assure you.

Here is something that even a simpleton like you can understand:

MAKE me go home, PUNK.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.co

SifuAbel
10-04-2001, 11:16 PM
Knife is choke is vasco is several people. I'm convinced of that now.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

chokeyouout2
10-05-2001, 01:48 AM
Make me go home.Thats unique.How about this one abel, I know you are but what am I?There is a new one for you Abel.You post so much on this board i'm beginning to think you dont have any monkey students anymore.I am not knife, he probably dosen't like me anyways, so where is the connection?As far as the picture go's, I never said I was in it.That picture was taken in 1995.I have trained alot with one of the guys and the other is my instructor and homey.

Aint nobody talkin when i'm talkin so shut the fu9k up!

Knifefighter
10-05-2001, 02:41 AM
Abel:
As usual, you don't have a clue.

Mr Nemo:
You don't have to convince me that you aren't an idiot. No amount of convincing will make me think that you are not an idiot for wanting to train in kung fu (just joking). Actually, I have the utmost respect for people who have explored and tried several options and then picked one over the other. If kung fu works for you that's great. If you want to win and think that kung fu is the best for that, there is nothing wrong with that.

I do heartily disagree with kung fu people who have never had a barrage of full power strikes thrown at them, have never fought against an experienced ground fighter, and have never fought against MMA people, yet claim that their training is as valid or better for self defense or real fighting.

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I do heartily disagree with kung fu people who have never had a barrage of full power strikes thrown at them, have never fought against an experienced ground fighter, and have never fought against MMA people, yet claim that their training is as va lid or better for self defense or real fighting. [/quote]


Chokeknifeorchidvascojjj,

You are sounding quite familiar, or at least all the same.

Can you qualify that statement? How do you know that the above is true? We, as a whole, have never had a barrage of punches thrown at us? How do you know this? Have you actually seen everybody? Are you like santa clause that see all people in the world at once? That statement is almost comical. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif :rolleyes:

You know, while vasco was taking up the weasel you were sounding semi-intelligent. I guess you have to bounce from one person to another so much you forget who is being the weasel this week. hmmmmmmm.o

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-05-2001, 03:15 AM
Abel:
I'm not saying all kung fu practioners. But a majority of those that I have come across in person, as well as a large portion on this board seem to be in this category. There are probably many kung fu practioners who don't fall into this category. Somehow, I don't think you're one of them.

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 03:31 AM
You still haven't qualified what you've said. So far it's all conjecture. And as far as my ability, you've not seen me at all. Which is the ultimate point, you don't know. You can guess, but thats just an assumption. All you know is what little you've seen in so cal. You were more correct when you made that statement. "as far as you've seen"

You can't backpeddle now, qualify it as a whole or nothing.v

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Xebsball
10-05-2001, 06:16 AM
Knifefighter, i just have a question.

These kung fu fighters you've seen in nhb events, were they using San Da (kickboxing/wrestling) or tradicional stances and moves?

-------------------------
"Faltou luz mas era Dia, o Sol invadiu a sala. Fez da tv um espelho, refletindo o que a gente esquecia."

chokeyouout2
10-05-2001, 02:02 PM
The word you are butchering is "quantify", not qaulify.BTW the burden of proof is placed apon you.You are the one who posted pictures of yourself with men standing on your legs as well as you flying through the air posing in insect like stances.You are the joke.How can anyone take you seriously?Poses and human pillars.How in the hell does that equate to fighting ability?It dosen't.In your quest for suppositional prowess, you have failed to notice the **** trail you leave behind you.Once again, go home monkey boy.

Aint nobody talkin when i'm talkin so shut the fu9k up!

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 07:06 PM
Vascoknifechokejjj,

That's really something comeing from a guy who's never posted a picture of himself at all. Or will even decribe what his stats are. If it's so easy you do it. So which one are you in that picture you have. Thats just it isn't it? you can't, you're not in it. Before i didn't care but now i'm **** curious WHO exactly did you fight that is Kung Fu.

LOL! to think I've been argueing with the "3 faces of eve" all this time.

PS Your nose is still dripping.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-06-2001, 07:57 AM
Abel:
I hope for your sake that your fighting ability is better than your deductive reasoning.

As far as qualifying as a whole or nothing, I’m not sure exactly what you mean. I can only base my opinions on my own experiences and observations. Lets just say I have experienced and observed a of kung fu guys who don’t spar full contact, don’t groundfight, don’t hit hard and get hit hard in return, don’t understand conditioning concepts, and spend a truckload of time practicing solo forms and stances. Based on these things, my conclusions stand as I have stated them, although I am always willing to be proven wrong.

By the way, I am honestly interested in how your sparring sessions against the BJJ guys went and how you hooked up with them.


Xebsball:
The ones I saw used what I would consider traditional stances and moves, at least until the sh!t hit the fan.

SifuAbel
10-06-2001, 08:45 AM
Sybil,

Like I told your alter ego vasco, at first I didn't care about names now I'm **** curious. Just WHO exactly did you "observe" and WHO exactly did you beat up?

Just like you, I want names.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-06-2001, 08:53 AM
Not asking for names. Just interested in hearing about your experiences with the BJJ guys. I don't care who they were. If you don't want to tell me about it, that's fine.

By the way, are you still coming to LA?b

Braden
10-06-2001, 09:34 AM
Abel - You have to admit Knife is right. The majority of kungfu practitioners can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I love a couple styles of kungfu and spend a sick amount of time training in one of them. But I'm aware of reality. I've got to figure you are too.

I really don't think knife is the other people you're saying he is (Other than that Orchid thing).

As for your experiences with BJJ stylists, all KF is looking for is some elaboration. I don't think that's unrealistic. The last time I fought a groundfighter, I caught his shoot in what I've found out now is called a crucifix, only he still knocked me backwards and I used a wall for leverage to get the crank. When pushed for details, I posted about it. Granted, everyone said it was bull****. But whatever, that's not my problem. Why don't you do the same?

I think a good rule to run by in the forums is, don't bring it up if you don't want to talk about it.

And before you could turn that around on KF, I'll say again I really don't think he needs to defend what he said in the last post, because we all know it's true.

SifuAbel
10-06-2001, 09:41 AM
ahhhhhhhhhh no

It's time for the truth. I have heard claims of great acheivement from knifefighter from way back.
The guys I've fought were not famous, unlike our friend sybil here.

So don't avoid the question vasco, WHO was it?

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

chokeyouout2
10-06-2001, 10:44 PM
Abeline

I already posted this info, so I will cut and pate it for you.


Make me go home.Thats unique.How about this one abel, I know you are but what am I?There is a new one for you Abel.You post so much on this board i'm beginning to think you dont have any monkey students anymore.I am not knife, he probably dosen't like me anyways, so where is the connection?As far as the picture go's, I never said I was in it.That picture was taken in 1995.I have trained alot with one of the guys and the other is my instructor and homey.

There, are you happy.Now, monkey boy go home.

As far as qualifying as a whole or nothing, I’m not sure exactly what you mean. I can only base my opinions on my own experiences and observations. Lets just say I have experienced and observed a of kung fu guys who don’t spar full contact, don’t groundfight, don’t hit hard and get hit hard in return, don’t understand conditioning concepts, and spend a truckload of time practicing solo forms and stances. Based on these things, my conclusions stand as I have stated them, althou

Piccolo Junior
10-15-2001, 01:51 AM
http://www.taishingpekkwar.com/
http://www.liuhopafa.com/

What were you saying about Kung Fu guys fighting in MMA contests?

It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour.- Choki Motobu

jun_erh
10-16-2001, 03:32 AM
I've always thought the weakness of wrestling was that it left you open to all the dirty pool stuff like hair pulling, people jumping in etc. Much morso than if you're standing a regular/boxing distance. Just thought I'd throw that in there ;)

Jaguar Wong
10-16-2001, 05:00 PM
I had a friend that got into a fight on the Vegas Strip and he used wrestling pretty effectively (of course if you've got both crews there, no one wants to jump in so fast). In fact, the other guys crew was complaining that he was using wrestling. What kind of crap is that!?! The funnier thing is that my friend is too worried about what others think, so he actually let the guy to, and boxed toe to toe with him. What kind of crap is that!?!

Anyway, after pounding the guy for a while, he clinched, took him down again, and started bouncing the guy's forehead off the asphalt until his crew pulled him off.

Jaguar Wong

jun_erh
10-17-2001, 01:38 AM
It would be cool if all the discussions on this board led to a breakthrough in martial arts. It sounds lke your friend in Vegas knew alot about fighting period. I don't need to tell you that wrestling and fighting are not the exact same thing, yunno? A + B does not neccesitate C. that's why I like "The Tao of Jeet Kun Do" by Bruce Lee because it's the style of no style. In that book he talks about all different disciplines and really makes sense to me anyway :D

Jaguar Wong
10-17-2001, 05:41 PM
Actually he wasn't really a street fighter. I think that was probably his first real street confrontation. The rest being little school yard stuff. He just has a big ego, and a lot of aggression. He's careful about walking into a punch, because he used to put on boxing gloves and go at it with the neighborhood kids (with no real training of course). Then joined the wrestling team, and he got pretty strong after that.

He just doesn't think about stuff like the other guy packing a blade, or a pistol, which to me was rather stupid of him, but hey...He's still alive.

I agree with you about wanting a lot of the discussions here leading to "martial breakthroughs", but most of the threads are bragging, style arguments, training method arguments, and just plain jokes. But, I have had a few "breakthrough" moments reading some of the posts about other people's experiences, and I have improved my own skills using them. It's just a rare occurance. I'm sure if we all had an open mind, and could look past silly comments, we would all find some very useful info here.

Jaguar Wong

jun_erh
10-18-2001, 02:36 AM
I was watching old Shaw Bros movie "3 masters" or something and one guy was throwing knives and I thought that would be a good time to know chin na or wrestling because you could prevent him from having the distance to throw. I keep coming back to Bruce Lee because to me he was the first MMA guy in alot of ways. Like he added boxing stuff like uppercuts and hooks to Kung Fu because of his frustration with not being able to reach those areas with the Wing Chun. My new style is going to be a combination of Water Ballet and WWF circa 1982 like Iron Sheik and Mr. Wonderful. Eureka! ;)

grounded
10-20-2001, 06:29 AM
UFC type fighting goes against the basic philosophy of gung fu. I do not know if this is universal, but my Chinese teachers have always emphasized the idea that fighting is only to be used when necessary- not just for money or attention. I also crosstra in in grappling as well as internal arts to make myself a complete fighter. However, this does not phase my conviction that fighting for any reason besides honor and safety is self defeating.

so

please reconsider your stance before slandering the fathe r of martial arts again.

besides
one of the marks of a great martial artist (besides being soft spoken and gentle) is the ability to put oneself in his opponent's shoes. Since you have clearly made your oppenent clear shut up and go practice horse stance.

and better yet
Royce Gracie is humble
why aren't you?o

Knifefighter
10-21-2001, 09:27 PM
grounded:
Do you know Royce? I didn't think so. I doubt that you are qualified to comment on whether or not he is humble.

NHB is just the next level up from sparring. It's a good venue to test and hone your techniques and strategies. Do you spar? If so, how can you justify that in terms of your "kung fu philosophy"? If not, how will you ever know what works and what doesn't?

JWTAYLOR
10-22-2001, 12:05 AM
KF, although I agree with your premise that NHB is valuable way to test your skill, I would hope you would admit that it has devloped into something far more than just a step up from sparring. Lots of people are training just for specific NHB events, removing some techniques from their inventory and replacing them with others to fit rules. Now it has become a major sporting event and I would suspect that many champions of Pride and the UFC fight would not be fighting if there was no money on the line.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Knifefighter
10-22-2001, 02:42 AM
JWT:
At the level of Pride and UFC, I agree with what you are saying. However, at the more local events, there are many who just use it as a learning experience and the next level up from sparring..

JWTAYLOR
10-24-2001, 04:49 PM
Absolutely.
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Zedekiah
10-29-2001, 05:42 PM
Hey ppl...

One thing I think some of you UFC people need to realise is that UFC is not the same as an actual fight that would occur on the street etc...

Kungfu (and Martial Arts in general) are created for fighting. That is, fighting in real life. UFC is not a realistic simulation of a fight where really anything is allowed - and therefore should not be used to measure how good a fighting style is.

Kungfu people do not enter UFC because they do not wish to. Most kungfu practicioners learn kungfu for self defence, or personal health - not to fight on TV.

Hope this make sense to you all :)

Only that which has been previously created, can be looked at as if it is from the future.

gfhegel21
10-31-2001, 05:03 PM
Bull****.

In terms of one on one unarmed combat, top-level NHB fighters (whether their base is in kung fu, karate, bjj or whatever) are the best fighters in the world.

It is true that NHB is not "real" in the sense of multiple opponents, potential use of weapons, no time limits etc. However, to dismiss the lessons of NHB events based on that is idiotic.

This notion that there are these lethal fighters that could simply walk out of the shadows and, provided they get the rules they ask for, would be able to kill NHB fighters with their "lethal" techniques is a fantasy. Who knows? Maybe it'll happen one day, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

This is NOT to suggest that there aren't good fighters in kung fu etc. I'm just taking issue with the idea that UFC etc. can be ignored because it's not "real." That's a cop out. I've seen all kinds of karate school web sites etc. use that excuse. I suspect the reason is to keep their client base. If they just were to come out and admit that they aren't teaching self-defense, that there is almost no "martial" in their martial art, then how could they stay in business?