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View Full Version : Capoiera Vs Kung fu



Tzustone
03-15-2001, 01:25 PM
I recently recieved a challenge from a Capoiera practitioner from overseas who met a student of mine and wants to come to the island to challenge me.

What do you know of this style?

And how will it fare against kung fu?

Blood, Sweat and Breath Control = Success

Merryprankster
03-15-2001, 02:23 PM
Capoeira is a highly acrobatic, extremely evasive maneuver oriented art. I am going to tell you right now that it's going to seem very odd to you. Good Capoeiristas tend to be extremely flexible, quick, rangy, and have catlike agility. They also tend to be in ubelievable shape. It is not uncommon for them to execute strikes while in a handstand. They practice extremely mobile footwork and place great pride on being tricky. They will try to keep you off balance by continuously moving and creating angles.

Given their emphasis on kicking and leg sweeps, I imagine they will try to keep you at that range. The number of unconventional attacks is quite large. Even if they seem completely out of position, keep your guard up.

Check out http://www.bnbcomp.net/capoeira/

And here for some good small animations of common moves: http://newenglandcapoeira.com/pages/moves.html

Vankuen
03-15-2001, 02:41 PM
I have been "lucky" enough to have some experience with capoeira, and if you want to see some really crazy stuff, you need to go here:


Combastics media (http://www.combastics.com/media)

You will see the capoeira pics in the middle just when you scroll down.

But in any case, Ive fought only low level capoeria stylists, and they can be taken easily by simply watching their center instead of all the confusing angles and weird positions they get into...but I guess that may sound easier than it is.

They do perform a lot of sweeps and things of that nature, often time followed up with an overhead kick or something of that type. So watch out for that. I just watched the guy dance back and forth, staying out of range just long enough to see his openings and then went in to get him. I didnt want to wait for any of his little tricks to get me first. That was my experience.

If you do fight the guy, dont let up, once youre inside and can bridge him or grapple him, I think you will have the fight won as long as he doesnt know any other ways of fighting.

count
03-15-2001, 03:03 PM
Capoiera is a very good style with many features as marryprankster has pointed out already. In addition they use elbows and headbutts in a very lethal manner. Great ground work too. It is very circular and flowing so I suggest if you are fighting against this style make use of angles and jamming techniques. If they are in a handstand of course they will expect you to try and sweep the hands. Don't, they are very good at cartwheeling out of it and and coming down on top of your back. I think rather you should attack linear with front heel kicks or ax kicks. Check out the sites listed above, they show some good standard moves of their style. One thing to be careful of not really talked about on these sites. Capoiera's main weapon is straight razors which they use equally well with their hands and feet. Very dangerous! :eek:
Ï

SaekSan
03-15-2001, 04:29 PM
Do you know where this challenger is coming from (city or state)? What style of Capoeira does he do (Regional, Senzala or "de rua")?

Those particulars can give you more insight in how this person will approach you during the fight, each style has it's own philosophy of fighting and tricks.

As for weapons, the straight-razor between the toes is definetely something to watch out for, also be careful of the Maculele (they look kinda like double Escrima sticks) and if this guy does "de rua" be careful if he's wearing flip-flops (I'm not kidding!), if he catches you with a slap on the ear with 'em, it's pretty guaranteed you're out.

Good luck.

"Know your enemy and know yourself, win all the time"

Metal Fist
03-15-2001, 04:43 PM
When he starts his Ginga attack him at the mid-transition point of his step(when he is double weighted), I ve seen this work several times before but, you have to be quick and deliberate in your attack. Good Luck! :D :D :D

"Do whatever it takes to be the last man standing!"

YoungForest
03-15-2001, 06:06 PM
Capoiera is a joke when it comes to actual fighting...
I've seen a couple of capoiera guys in NHB tournements and they had no chance what so ever.

Maybe a master of the art would be good but rarely do you see good capoiera fighters..

ope
03-15-2001, 06:24 PM
Which student is that? and when did he challenge you...


Double Stump..

ope
03-15-2001, 06:29 PM
Stone i think you should try to break his rythem dont let him start flowing and get inside i know your an inside fighter...


Double Stump

Kung Lek
03-15-2001, 07:26 PM
Get inside and stay inside.
stay right on top of him and use relentlessness as your friend.

the dancer will get tied up. If your root is solid he has zero on you.

stay within 1 to 1.5 steps and his sweeps and kicks (all he has as there are near no hand techniques in this cultural dance display) are pretty much neutralized.

when you're done with him, shake his hand and offer him tea.

Caporeia has not been a martial art for a very long time, it used to be but was degenerated to a slave culture dance expression thing long ago.

Only recently has it re-emerged and it will be some time before the art can be truly redefined as "martial", so take him on at his behest, you will do well I'm sure.

peace

peace

Kung Lek

count
03-15-2001, 08:44 PM
I respect you and your advice about the distance is great but I have to disagree on your assesment of this martial art.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> all he has as there are near no hand techniques in this cultural dance display [/quote]
First of all, I got my first look at capoiera about 15 years ago and these guys had been doing it all their lives. It IS a brutal martial art. There are hidden in the dance great elbow strikes and hand techniques. The only purpose of the dance was to disguise the martial aspect of their practice which was illegal by law. But the dance aspect adds a timing element and teaches you to move with your opponent with great sensitivity. They are good at infighting and locking you up and destroying you with their elbows and knees too. Don't underestimate any martial art! Capoiera is a good one.

YoungForest
03-16-2001, 12:23 AM
I'm sorry but I have to disagree to that because Capoiera was used by the slaves in brazil to get away from the gaurds..
it was a dicgise but still....its not as effective these days for fighting professionally or at all because of the better awareness fighters have these days then lets say 20 or 30 years ago...

It's just different now....maybe 100 years ago it was working and it obviously has but these days I doubt it...Capoiera is not a close distance art..so if u get on top of the person, what are they gonna do?

It's just not as effective...

Eric
03-16-2001, 10:40 AM
Capoiera??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha!!!!

Play some polka music and throw their timing off...

sheesh....

count
03-17-2001, 12:18 AM
If you limit yourself to what you have seen in a few UFC or WWF sanctioned pay fights, or some neighborhood NHB matches, than it doesn't surprise me that you have a bad impression of Capoiera. In Bahia it is not for professional fighting but it is tested in life and death street situations much the way many Fillipino arts have proven themselves over time. There is much in-fighting and grappling in Capoiera too. It is not all long range kicking. They have many ground takedowns and will use their elbows and headbutts in close. Furthermore from what I have seen, which is limited to 2 3-day workshops, even beginners can use capoiera fairly quickly. I would not underestimate any martial art. Or are you one of those that think Kung Fu is not effective for fighting too?

NorthernMantis
03-17-2001, 02:24 AM
My friend took capoera.I used to go to a school full of capera practitioners.he showed me some tapes of people from back in brazil.Man they were fast and flexible.

Just don' let him start dancing.I'll tell you that.Most of their kicks require them to go low and put their hands on the ground.Strike their point of balance and thy'll topple over.Carefull though their kicks are tricky.Just watch an authentice vidoe if you can and you'll learn how to sse their kicks come.

One last thing they have no (if not little) hand techniques.Get in the inside and chain punch like your life depends on it.Don't give him room to breathe.

"Always be ready"

count
03-17-2001, 02:31 AM
There must be a ton of bad capoiera out there to have so many people with similiar misconceptions about it. I guess that's the same problem with kung fu?
:confused:

fiercest tiger
03-17-2001, 06:18 AM
wait till he does a hand stand and kick him in the face, or break his elbow...hahahah

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

tnwingtsun
03-17-2001, 07:02 AM
No disrespect because I have no knowledge of this art other than seeing Al D'son doing it in a movie.
But the polka thing got me cracking up,
a vision of John Candy(RIP) wearing sun glasses dancing around in
amazon tarzan shorts and deadly flip flops to polka music forever burned in my memory.

**** you Eric,only a cheese grower would
come up with that counter! :D

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-17-01 at 10:11 PM.]

YoungForest
03-17-2001, 07:54 AM
I don't disagree with your count because obviously there is something positive about the art that kept it alive ever since, BUT that doesn't mean that everyone who practices it will be a master of it. What is the chances of a good Capoeira fighter? 5 percent? 10 percent? 50 percent?....well i haven't seen one yet and there are capoeira schools where I live and its nothing but break dancing with tricky strikes...that's where we lead to the negative sides of the art like going along with a beat (your opponent can set u off), and its "trickyness".

count
03-17-2001, 01:42 PM
I would say the odds of a prationers proficiency would be 100 percent equal with that of ANY other martial art. You find poor quality people in all martial arts. Always a good rule of thumb to prepare for the best though.
I must admit, that polka concept cracked me up too.
I must caution fiercest tiger to go back and read my post about the handstand or you may get caught in a "fiercest tiger trap". I gave a direct method of attacking the posture but the correct way to beat any trap/set-up is to spring it.ˇ

Tien Long
03-17-2001, 01:58 PM
Hmmmmmmm, what can I tell you that can make you beat the capoeria guys...I guess I should say watch out when the person comes close to you. I can't tell you how many times I've been triped, or nearly head-butted by my master (course I've only been taking it for a couple of months). If you want to see a REALLY cool Capoeria vs. Kung Fu match, I suggest you rent "The Quest" with Jean Claude Van ****e. Skip through the first 20 mins. and go the match with CHina against Brazil. Man, monkey kung fu against capoeria was just too cool.

"Watch the skies, the DRAGON flies!"

rogue
03-17-2001, 02:47 PM
Ask the BJJ guys, the Brazillian ones, about it. I'm sure they've got some good counters to it.
A good quick leg lock would seem to slow them down, just watch for the other foot.

Tvebak
03-17-2001, 09:58 PM
Many people teach capoeira in a way that is not very usefull in combat,this is actually the same with many forms of MA.
Capoeira is effective if the practisioner has looked into the right aspects of his art.
Being young and foolish i have myself tested my capoeira against other forms of MA, i have had my ass handed to me several times, but often i have been able to take my sparring partners by surprice.
Make sure if you take a sparring session with a capoeirista that its in a friendly way.
Capoeira is also hitting you with a car or shooting your head off with a gun.
In my wiew if the guy steps up in front of you and start to ginga, either its not a fight or that guy is not a experienced capoeirista.
The best way to know good capoeira is when it stabs you in the back.

"Capoeira is threachery"
-Mestre Bimba.

AsianSifu
03-18-2001, 05:23 AM
Stab him in the back? How about showing those big tough guys by bringing guns to school? Is that Capoira? It was a wrestling art hidden in dances. Its like Janet Jackson putting wushu into her dancing and learning to fight by watching. If he sweeps, jump kick his face. Capoera has throwing. I know that, but basically the art is for dancing and making fun.

http://www.cyberbeaver.com/karups/pics3/thumbs/72.jpg

I don't have a signature because I have no pen to write it.

AsianSifu
03-18-2001, 06:09 AM
http://www.terra.es/personal4/free4you/danielle/tn_04_jpg.jpg

I don't have a signature because I have no pen to write it.

Tvebak
03-18-2001, 07:59 AM
I can not in any way imagine the point you are trying to make with your two posts.
I can see that you took my comments about guns a bit hard, and i am sorry for that.
The point i was trying to make was that in capoeira many people have a diffrent understanding of the word fighting.
I dont fight capoeira with my friends, i play capoeira with my friends.
I may play rough, this including throwing,using elbows,fists,cutting hands, finger attacks to the eyes and throat,headbutts,takedowns, grappling and knees but i will do so in such a way that we still remain friends afterwards.
Lets keep the same spirit in the discussions here.
Peace.

naturesfist
03-21-2001, 03:17 PM
i study kung fu and have an interest in the other art in question. and from the posts gone before many have some serious flaws with their thought on capoiera. the art does have hand strikes and most of them are directed towards pressure points that bring about uncontiosness. the ginga(or dance), it's rhythym can be changed and adjusted to suit the pace of the fight (so the polka thing won't work. Another inportant point of the art for is that the practioner can start one move and finish with another that's why assuming a capoierist's next move can cost you dearly. your best bet with fighting a capoierist is to fight in close and keep him having to cahange his rhythym as each rhythym has its own mind set and it's harder to do some move at faster or slower rhythyms.

and to anyone who doubts the effectiveness of capoiera just check out the history of the art where a group of slave armed with only razor wiped out an entire army equipped with guns with minimal to no loss.

Budokan
03-21-2001, 03:29 PM
"And to anyone who doubts the effectiveness of capoiera just check out the history of the art where a group of slave armed with only razor wiped out an entire army equipped with guns with minimal to no loss."

This sounds like one of those legends that crop up in all styles of martial arts over the years. I find this claim as doubtful as the one about the tiger killing people with it's powerful tail in Shaolin-do, or Gichin Funakoshi battling a hurricane.

K. Mark Hoover

Ghost Dog
03-21-2001, 06:05 PM
Eh, I guess I ought to stick up for my capoeirista brothers and sisters.

Like all arts, there are skilled and not so skilled practioners. It is true that capoeira is often perceived as a fluid type of break-dancing. However, at a medium to advanced level, a capoeirista would stand as good a chance as any in a scrap.
Concerning BJJ, there have been some slightly unofficial competitions (i.e. fights behind the bikesheds after school) between the two - which was inevitable really. The capoeristas faired rather well.
Because it is a full contact fighting art by origin, many people still play capoeira in a physical manner- you can really get the stuffing knocked out of you in a roda. Back in the day, local disputes were settled by capoeira - whoever came out of the roda in one piece won (we are not supposed to ask what happened to the other guy).
If you have never boxed or fought with a capoeira player, have no doubts as to his or her competence as a fighter. The use of words such as play, and game in capoeira are rather disconcerting - kind of like 'All in cricket' if anyone remembers the brilliant Monty Python sketch. Anywho, I've wasted enough of your time.
But before I go, if you want to improve your flexibility, start capoeira. Also, if anyone here does any full contact fighting, throwing in a jinga and a mae lua de compasso (spell check!) will scare the be-jesus out of your opponent.
Feel the ryhthm of your heart :)

Ghost Dog
03-21-2001, 06:06 PM
Eh, I guess I ought to stick up for my capoeirista brothers and sisters.

Like all arts, there are skilled and not so skilled practioners. It is true that capoeira is often perceived as a fluid type of break-dancing. However, at a medium to advanced level, a capoeirista would stand as good a chance as any in a scrap.
Concerning BJJ, there have been some slightly unofficial competitions (i.e. fights behind the bikesheds after school) between the two - which was inevitable really. The capoeristas faired rather well.
Because it is a full contact fighting art by origin, many people still play capoeira in a physical manner- you can really get the stuffing knocked out of you in a roda. Back in the day, local disputes were settled by capoeira - whoever came out of the roda in one piece won (we are not supposed to ask what happened to the other guy).
If you have never boxed or fought with a capoeira player, have no doubts as to his or her competence as a fighter. The use of words such as play, and game in capoeira are rather disconcerting - kind of like 'All in cricket' if anyone remembers the brilliant Monty Python sketch. Anywho, I've wasted enough of your time.
But before I go, if you want to improve your flexibility, start capoeira. Also, if anyone here does any full contact fighting, throwing in a jinga and a mae lua de compasso (spell check!) will scare the be-jesus out of your opponent.
Feel the ryhthm of your heart ;)

Rei
03-21-2001, 06:48 PM
capoeira CAN be deadly if practiced for the purpous of fighting. Ive seen it plied in fights and woa :D pretty cool stuff.

Ok, have u ever fought an american kickboxer? Its the same thing. The dance sets a rythm they can off beat when they want to get an extra hit in. the difference is that capoeira is much more lower and longer then american kickboxing. if they go for hand stands... GOOD hehe grab the foot break the ankle... go for joints ;) since they cartwheel a lot its different from tae kwon do where they stand up. Againts tkd you hit the legs, them, its the arms. then hell hace to stand so all the targets are open... have fun ;)

good luck if you take the challenge lose or win its a learning experience thast all that matters!

Peace!

*To conquer others, you must first conquer yourself*

Rei
03-21-2001, 06:49 PM
what style of Kungfu do you practice? that could help more if the people knew ;)<

Peace!

*To conquer others, you must first conquer yourself*

ope
03-21-2001, 07:40 PM
If you check his profile he practices Nature fist or some call it natural style i think the chinese name is TZU JAN MEN...

Tvebak
03-21-2001, 07:54 PM
What many people get confused with, is the use of acrobatics in capoeira.
Where the traditional acrobatics allways are related to fighting technique, not that the acrobatics themselves allways have uses in a fight
but they often teach you some way of moving the body that will support your fighting technique.
The most common example i think is the Sintura Despresada by mestre Bimba, a series of acrobatic throws that teaches you to fall well.
In the game of capoeira as it is played today, many people change the movements without really understanding them, just to make it look good.
One other thing people seem to miss is the fact that there is a great number of different "games" in capoeira, and allmost unlimited variations within the games.
Some off these games are not used so much anymore, for instance santa maria (knifegame) is seldomly seen, especially not outside bahia.
In one game i might do a open cartwheel but that does not mean i will do it in another kin of game, or in a fight.
On capoeira teacher explained his acrobatics with "having hands in case i run out of feet"
This is one aspect of the truth, and in a fight this may be the most common use of acrobatics.

Tzustone
03-21-2001, 08:33 PM
Nature fist or Tzu Jan Men called natural boxing is the style which i practice.

I presently do the "rolling stone" forms.

For more info check out www.alhikmahkungfu.com (http://www.alhikmahkungfu.com)
or www.dokungfu.com (http://www.dokungfu.com)

Wah Ren Jie
03-21-2001, 08:39 PM
If you, or anyone else with Cap.. experience saw Only the Strong with Mark Dacascos, how close to the genuine article was what they were doing in that movie? Thanks.

Got Chi?

Rei
03-21-2001, 09:42 PM
well in my young age i still got LOTS to learn bout just how many styles there are i never even heard of that style before :D oh well!

Peace!

*To conquer others, you must first conquer yourself*

rogue
03-22-2001, 03:47 AM
It's interesting how many people consider Capoiera an effective fighting art, but not Olympic TKD or Modern Wushu .

Rei
03-22-2001, 04:37 AM
woa there friend,

if i chose between wushu and capoeira its WUSHU! oh... might be the fact that i am doing it :D

anyways.. they all have ups and downs it all depends on what u like

Peace!

*To conquer others, you must first conquer yourself*

Tvebak
03-22-2001, 07:47 AM
Hmmm...i havent seen it in a while, i think its ok, none of the players in the film seems like anyone especially good.
As far as giving a good picture of capo in a fight, i think its lacking a lot.
But as i said its been a while, i think i will watch it and post again.