PDA

View Full Version : Tiger Schulman's Horror Stories



MonkeySlap Too
06-28-2001, 07:07 PM
What is the deal with Tiger Schulmann's lawsuit?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

rogue
06-30-2001, 01:52 AM
Can't find the URL for the news story. What it boils down to is that martial arts studios don't have to follow the same rules as a health club or gym. They don't have to be bonded in case they go out of business, offer certain conditions for cancelation of contracts and many other things that health clubs have to follow. I'll try and find the article.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

bdragon
07-10-2001, 06:17 PM
I'm curious to hear any horror stories those of you might have had with Tiger Schulman's Karate? A friend of mine went there and It was a nightmare

shaolinboxer
07-10-2001, 08:04 PM
It would be even more interesting to hear positive stories about TSK.

Horror stories are so common they are boring by now...

mileh
07-16-2001, 02:37 PM
Can someone please tell me who Tiger Schulman is?

http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/dvv/cwmnoid.gif

Budokan
07-16-2001, 04:31 PM
Yeah, and what are some of these horror stories? I'm unfamiliar with both aspects of this question.

K. Mark Hoover

jbmmaster
07-17-2001, 01:25 AM
I heard that tiger shulmans karate is easy. There were people in my kungfu class that switched from TSK to my school because they said it was to easy. I was going to go their also but I didn't think it was worth going to. People in my school make a joke out of tiger shulmans. I mean just look at the commercials for tiger shulmans, thats the most lamest stuff Ive ever seen. But Ive got to admitt they sure market their School well.

"Beware of the chi within JB"

bdragon
07-17-2001, 03:47 PM
It's Karate for the masses...........takes Mcdojo to a whole new level. Everything is prepackaged..

shaolinboxer
07-17-2001, 07:00 PM
www.tsk.com (http://www.tsk.com)

shaolinboxer
07-17-2001, 07:03 PM
Most of these tales of evil have to do with the fact that when you sign up for classes, you sign a very long contract for thousands of dollars. It guarantees you will become a black belt after x amount of time, and has clauses for additional fees if you do not make it to BB under the time indicated in the original contract.

The bad part comes when you decide you don't like the classes and want you 2g's back.

But hey man, caveat emptor (buyer beware).

bdragon
07-19-2001, 05:32 AM
Seven-------Tiger Schulman is a nobody who won a few tournaments and declared himslef Shihan of his own Karate system, totally egotistical too, there is a newsletter and there is a section called tracks of the tiger that talks about how great he is, its such a joke. It almost seems liek they are trying to form their own cult.

mileh
07-19-2001, 01:30 PM
LOL, thats all we need another Chung Moo Doo. :rolleyes:

http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/dvv/cwmnoid.gif

Wbarrett21
09-26-2006, 11:37 AM
Seven-------Tiger Schulman is a nobody who won a few tournaments and declared himslef Shihan of his own Karate system, totally egotistical too, there is a newsletter and there is a section called tracks of the tiger that talks about how great he is, its such a joke. It almost seems liek they are trying to form their own cult.

Do you know him or something? Did he seem Egotistical when you spoke with him?

This was from the Grappling Hall of fame for the worlds best Grapplers.

Daniel "Tiger" Schulmann has spent his entire life, first as a fighter, and then as a teacher, to achieve the greatest challenges that martial arts has to offer. During the 70s, Tiger Schulman won over 100 competitions, before he set his sights on the ultimate: full-contact, bare-knuckle, knockdown-knockout competition.

From 1979 to 1984, he was the North American Mas Oyama Full-Contact Karate Champion, an accomplishment still unequalled to this day. During that time, he also represented the United States in the World Open Full-Contact Karate Championships in Tokyo, Japan

Wbarrett21
09-26-2006, 11:48 AM
I heard that tiger shulmans karate is easy. There were people in my kungfu class that switched from TSK to my school because they said it was to easy. I was going to go their also but I didn't think it was worth going to. People in my school make a joke out of tiger shulmans. I mean just look at the commercials for tiger shulmans, thats the most lamest stuff Ive ever seen. But Ive got to admitt they sure market their School well.

"Beware of the chi within JB"

I have to agree with you that the commercials seem pretty lame but after I tried other classes in my area (Judo and Tae Kwon Do) I figured I would give it a shot because the classes I was in were not much of a workout at all and I didn't feel I was getting any benefit from taking them. Once I started Taking Tiger Shculmanns I realized that non of the stuff in the comercials is what we do that is only for the young young kids to make it fun and keep them interested. It's a way better workout than the other classes I took as well and I definatley feel like I'm getting somewhere after every class. Don't get me wrong your classes may be even more intense and if that is the case then I would see no reason to switch to any other schools at all.

I don't know what the above guy is talking about with them Guaranteeing you anything or giving you any time frame to become a black belt because they said that everyone takes a different amount of time to achieve a higher ranking and for some it may take a long time. Also there is no 2000 dollar charge that you can't get back either. You pay monthly and if you stop you don't pay anymore like most classes.

On top of that the current instructor at my school is currently the USKBA world Muay Thai Champion and has defended it and won as well.

Sorry to ramble on but I actually felt the same way you all did until I tried it and it just proves that you shouldn't Knock it till ya try it!

Crow4ever
10-09-2006, 12:50 PM
So I enrolled at TSK a few years back (I know, I know...) Was going okay for about 6 months... and somehow I was into it enough to sign up (and pay for) the extended classes (big mistake, obviously).

But things came up, and for a bunch of reasons, I stopped going. I always had intentions of going back and picking it up again, but it just never happened.

Now here I am, and in a situation where I could definitely use the money a lot more than I could use cookie-cutter "karate" instruction. I thought about trying to get my money back, but I know TSK's stance on the subject. So I started looking into it, and I came by this forum. Figured I'd at least throw up a post and see if anyone out there ever had dealings with these guys.

Anyone know of anyone who has tried to get any money back from TSK? Or maybe point me in a better direction to try to get more info about it? Thinking about filing a complaint with the Attorney General... dunno how much good that will do but I guess it can't hurt. It's all a shot in the dark, I'm sure - but I'll try anything at this point.

If anyone has any info, or can help in any way, please let me know.

The Xia
10-09-2006, 01:06 PM
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2000/nov/nov27a_00.html

sunfist
10-10-2006, 12:06 AM
Easy son, these people belonged to the carefree America of yesteryear, before osama showed us that the only true way to combat terror is with Tiger Schulmans Karate. They didnt know :(

doug maverick
10-10-2006, 08:28 AM
while i can't say much for some of his students! i heard from many reliable sources that tiger shulman himself was the reall deal. so while the school may be commercial(hey this is america and in america you gotta make buck you know) it's to say that the teaching is commercial. now hold on i'm not promoting his school because he some **** heads for students who can't fight to save there lives, and only no that tournament fighting crap. but mr. shulman himself can probably whip some ass....

Crow4ever
10-10-2006, 09:12 AM
That's a good start, although I'm not in NY and don't think I was part of that settlement.

Anyone else? ANY info is helpful!

Mr Punch
10-17-2006, 09:48 PM
Easy son, these people belonged to the carefree America of yesteryear, before osama showed us that the only true way to combat terror is with Tiger Schulmans Karate. They didnt know :(That was some funny ****! :D :D :D

greencloudtj
10-18-2006, 03:30 PM
I have to agree with you that the commercials seem pretty lame but after I tried other classes in my area (Judo and Tae Kwon Do) I figured I would give it a shot because the classes I was in were not much of a workout at all and I didn't feel I was getting any benefit from taking them. Once I started Taking Tiger Shculmanns I realized that non of the stuff in the comercials is what we do that is only for the young young kids to make it fun and keep them interested. It's a way better workout than the other classes I took as well and I definatley feel like I'm getting somewhere after every class. Don't get me wrong your classes may be even more intense and if that is the case then I would see no reason to switch to any other schools at all.

I don't know what the above guy is talking about with them Guaranteeing you anything or giving you any time frame to become a black belt because they said that everyone takes a different amount of time to achieve a higher ranking and for some it may take a long time. Also there is no 2000 dollar charge that you can't get back either. You pay monthly and if you stop you don't pay anymore like most classes.

On top of that the current instructor at my school is currently the USKBA world Muay Thai Champion and has defended it and won as well.

Sorry to ramble on but I actually felt the same way you all did until I tried it and it just proves that you shouldn't Knock it till ya try it!
what a joke bro...

ingchao
10-19-2006, 06:33 PM
I have to agree with you that the commercials seem pretty lame but after I tried other classes in my area (Judo and Tae Kwon Do) I figured I would give it a shot because the classes I was in were not much of a workout at all and I didn't feel I was getting any benefit from taking them. Once I started Taking Tiger Shculmanns I realized that non of the stuff in the comercials is what we do that is only for the young young kids to make it fun and keep them interested. It's a way better workout than the other classes I took as well and I definatley feel like I'm getting somewhere after every class. Don't get me wrong your classes may be even more intense and if that is the case then I would see no reason to switch to any other schools at all.

I don't know what the above guy is talking about with them Guaranteeing you anything or giving you any time frame to become a black belt because they said that everyone takes a different amount of time to achieve a higher ranking and for some it may take a long time. Also there is no 2000 dollar charge that you can't get back either. You pay monthly and if you stop you don't pay anymore like most classes.

On top of that the current instructor at my school is currently the USKBA world Muay Thai Champion and has defended it and won as well.

Sorry to ramble on but I actually felt the same way you all did until I tried it and it just proves that you shouldn't Knock it till ya try it!



And the Brainwashing continues........................:(

Try the ATA next if you feel your brain isn't washed enough.:D

David Jamieson
10-20-2006, 10:07 AM
mas oyama karate?

is that reference to Kyukoshin kai?

because Kyukoshin is is Mas Oyama's style.

so tiger shullman is a k1 fighter? If so, props, that's good karate!

If not, then that's a tad misleading.

Justaguy
10-26-2006, 05:16 PM
So, when my master was visiting from Beijing we happened to walk by a Tiger Schulman dojo. Stopping to look at a kickboxing class through the window I was expecting to hear him make fun of it. Instead he said it seemed pretty good - not amazing, but by no means horrible.

Justaguy
10-26-2006, 05:30 PM
It would mean a few phone calls and time on google, but it might be worth your time to:

Call your state attorney generals office and see if they had recieved any complaints against TSK.

Find out the specific office in the NY Attorney General's office and see if any legal agency in your state has contacted them about TSK.

Were the same high pressure sales techniques used on you? If so, call the better business bureau and see if there's anything that they can do about it.

If at the end of the day it all comes to nothing, you can always talk to the owner of the school, list all the different agencies that you've talked to, tell them the various complaints and law suits that they suggested and then say something along the lines of -

"Look, I know that I could drag you into court, I know that if I pressed it with complaints the (your state here) Attorney General might bring the same charges against you, but at the end of the day I don't want to screw you over or see you get all the legal bills and bad publicity. I just want my money back."

If you phrase it in a way that makes him see that you're being reasonable and you expect him to act the same (sure there's a place for insults, threats and acts of petty vandalism, but start with friendly conversation and see where that gets you - life's short and you can only manage so many vendettas at once) and think that there's a serious chance of him getting sued/brought up on charges he might give you the money. Even if he wins a trial against the AG, at $100-200 or so an hour the legal fees would be nothing compared to the money you're asking for.

just a thought.

Banjos_dad
10-27-2006, 01:12 PM
the way this resolves will really depend on how air-tight the contract is, in the legal sense.
the BBB is not going to help you at all...if anyone were to be helped by them, it would be the next person who checks out TSK with the BBB before they even call or go to the dojo

khidr
07-25-2007, 05:22 PM
I knew Tiger(Danny) Shulman years ago when he was 17.
His father showed me films of Danny fightin FULL CONTACT IN jAPAN, before he was 14 years old. I am sure your talent is no where near his as studying the martial arts teaches not only fighting but humility and respect for another. I cannot speak of Danny now as I have not seen him in years. As far as his ability, he surpaseed most when he was only 14 years old.

Wood Dragon
07-26-2007, 07:44 PM
I knew Tiger(Danny) Shulman years ago when he was 17.
His father showed me films of Danny fightin FULL CONTACT IN jAPAN, before he was 14 years old. I am sure your talent is no where near his as studying the martial arts teaches not only fighting but humility and respect for another. I cannot speak of Danny now as I have not seen him in years. As far as his ability, he surpaseed most when he was only 14 years old.

**This ad paid for by TSK, inc. All rights reserved.**

TenTigers
07-27-2007, 10:36 AM
I have an adult student who has also been traiinng in TSK for about two years. She really enjoys it-great workout,motivational teacher. The training is divided into Core-which is your pad drills, combos,and self-defense techniques, Kickboxing, which is sparring, and Submission Grappling. It seems that you buy a set amount of hours, say, 200 hrs. You then take classes in each catagory, and depending on how many hours-time on the floor training, will determine you moving up in rank. It's not the same as giving rank for attendance, but it makes sense that if you are spending so many hours training, naturally yuor skill level increases. It's expensive ,but they do alot of demographic research before opening up a new location, and they only open up in upscale, high traffic strip malls.
She may be an exception to the rule as far as what an average TSK student is, as she has been doing MA for many years and has BB in Kenpo, TKD, trains in Hung-Ga with me, and does Tiger Shullman's Karate.
Tiger Shullman is totally MMA now, and was probably one of the first to completely revamp his curriculum to MMA.
All school owners are Tiger Shullman students, so they are highly motivated as well. Sounds like a good school to model.

Wood Dragon
07-27-2007, 02:56 PM
Who are you, and what have you done with 10Tigers????

TenTigers
07-27-2007, 04:44 PM
I will admit however, that I don't care for their children's programs. Too much day care, and for young kids 9-12, they teach a macho attitude which in my book isn't healthy.
Since I teach for a living, and since I do not want to compromise, yet still make a decent living, I look at the ones who are doing it right, or at least doing big things which I can learn from. From TSK, I see a strong workout,heavy on conditioning, and heavy on motivation.(not simply feel good stuff, but good strong work) Kinda like Anthony Robins in a Gi. If I can inspire my students to push themselves and train hard, and enjoy it, if they walk out of my classes sweating and pumped, then they will not only get better, they will bring in others.
I doubt I will develop a curriculum like theirs, where each student has a card with a bar code, and are charged for hours...who knows? BUT, I have brought in Shuai Jiao and BJJ people to develop a curriculum for grappling, and one of my students, who is Thai, spends his summer in Thailand trainng with Col. Amnat Pooksrisuk learning Muay Chayat,and Muai Boran. This will also be a part of our school's training. (Tools,attributes, not trying to change anything or learn a style)SO ,learn and grow.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-12-2007, 12:11 PM
I have read this ignorant thread about TSK. The first thing that comes to my mind is that probably none of you have earned a Black Belt in ANY style. If you had, this thread of ignorance, hearsay, and rhetoric wouldn't be here. Having a Black Belt in Kenpo, high belts in American Combat Karate, and Tae Kwon Do - I can tell that none of you know too much about anything! All of this crap about "buying" your Black Belt from TSK is just what I called it...crap! In addition, TSK is THE ONLY STRUCTURED STYLE IN THIS COUNTRY WITH A PANEL OF HIGH RANKING BLACK BELTS,INCLUDING SHIHAN HIMSELF, THAT JUDGES EVERY ONE TESTING FOR BLACK IN THREE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, CLOSE RANGE DEFENSE, TAI KICK BOXING AND SUBMISSION GRAPPLING. Only Judo has a federation that judges every student for BB. In other words you will not know the fighters you fight or the judges judging you in the test. That means no sympathy black belts for anyone. TSK also has an entire curriculum of grappling moves you HAVE to know and demonstrate while grappling...as opposed to just over -powering your opponent. We have fight teams that compete and consistently win in NAGA (North American Grappling Association) ROC (ring of combat) The Capitale in Manhattan, have fought in MMA competitions in Atlantic City and had exhibition matches in the IFL this past summer where they won one and lost one. The IFL now wants Tiger Schulmann to coach a 5th team they are starting. TSK is also the only karate or (MMA school which, it now is) that has its 40 Sensei’s come to NJ Headquarters once per week to study with wrestlers, grapplers, Olympic boxers, and Jui Jitsu artists. They bring all of this knowledge back to their schools. Also, every sensei is certified by spending 100 hours on the floor under the supervision of another instructor, 3 written exams, and three practical exams in Grappling, Kick boxing, and Core.
How many of YOUR Sensei’s have to go through all of that just to teach and continue teaching? Answer = NONE! Once your instructor starts teaching he has no requirements to fullfill in order to "continue" teaching. Nor do most schools have an instructor that has done much of anything! Most of them couldn’t even tell you their lineage!

Your schools are simply jealous of the success of TSK who now has 40 schools and 58 thousand students. If you think your style is better just because it seems esoteric than you're just plain stupid. And talk about "condemnation before investigation"! None of you have ever spent a month in TSK, and these supposed people who claim it's not "hard" enough in class, never learned it's what YOU put in to it! There are good and bad black belts in every style. this is not arguable. If you want to be the best than you have to go that extra mile in ANY style!

One last note...if you're going to mouth off about something at least learn how to spell it! There are 2 N's in Schulmann! What a bunch of amateurs you all are. And quite juvenile as well. Nobody can “buy” a black belt in TSK. I have a friend who was high Brown for over ten years before being sent for his test. The sensei decides when you are ready no matter how much you have paid!

If you would like to challenge me on any of these points, feel free. I have been studying martial arts since 1976 before the majority of you were probably born! I'll be happy to answer any serious questions you may have.

doug maverick
11-12-2007, 04:34 PM
so if you have a black belt then it gives you magical psychic powers that give you the ability to tell when other people do not have black belts. i'm wearing a black belt right now and its telling me you don't have a black belt. man why all the lies. seriously thou you shouldn't take what people say on here seriously or accused them of things you no nothing about. i've studied chinese martial arts for most of my life which usually doesn't have any belts. but i did earn a black belt 2nd degree in shotokon karate, goju ryu and shorin ryu. and i think i commented on this thread so that means that your psychic black belt powers have failed.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-12-2007, 11:44 PM
"Why all the lies"? What lies? And if you're listening to your Black belt that is telling you I don't have one, then your "psychic powers" are as bad as mine. However, I could easily prove that I do have one but it would mean giving up my complete identity. –And this board is not worth doing that.

Shotokon is a great style; the sensei that gave me my BB in Kenpo also had a BB in shotokan. And, I guess you missed my point which I think I stated..."If the people on the board are trashing TSK then they don't have (or shouldn't have) a Black belt" because what I learned after receiving mine, is that I was now simply at the beginning of a new level. In other words-you become smart and don't trash other styles that you have not studied yourself because it's not the way a Black Belt should behave. That's the way of people who don't take that long journey to receive a BB in any syle. Our minds should be at that point where you open up to the realization that no one style has it all, and that you could learn something from every style.

Why don't you re-read my post and think about what I have told you in this reply. You won't be able to deny that the negative posts automatically raise a red flag to me about their knowledge and ranks, as it should you. A real BB does not arrogantly believe that they now know everything. I think the show on the history channel "Human Weapon" does a great job of educating people on the different styles of martial arts. I appreciate a spirited conversation, so thanks for your reply.

doug maverick
11-13-2007, 07:25 AM
i lost alot of repect for that show because the host don't know alot. i was joking about the psychic thing. but i agree about the negative post thing. i've personally have never studied at any tiger shulman schools. but i do remember meeting a friend there and when they heard i did CMA they looked at me like they could kick my ass so i asked the sensei there(i forget his name) if i could spar with some of his black belts(he said no, but it was a no with a look of fear) he said they would need shihan's permission so i was whatever but i felt disrespected when i went there. and i feel like if you are a sensei of a style of martial arts you should respect all styles of martial arts regardless. that shows poor teaching skills if you can;t teach your students respect. i think thats what alot of people are talking about on this post. not saying shihan shulman doesn;t have that respect in fact i'm sure he does.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-13-2007, 09:38 PM
Greetings,
As far as Human Weapon - you're right. But, I'm taping the episodes to educate myself (and more importantly, for my 4 and 1 yr. olds) about the Martial Arts, not because of dumb and dumber. Forget those guys and "take what you can and leave the rest".

As far as you asking a Sensei in a school not your own, I don't think many schools would allow that. I would never think about doing that-so more power to ya. What they told you though, is correct: everything has to be approved by Shihan. That is his way of making sure that every sensei is doing things the same way in order to protect the organization's structure and integrity which, I think is what sets TSK apart from the rest; Every BB has to be obtained from Shihan himself. Nobody skates through.

My philosophy now (at 41) is a lot like the philosophy of Human Weapon, and that means, after receiving a BB in a well established style, there is no reason to stop learning as much as you can from other styles. TSK allows for me to do that. Albeit, it is rare that two BB's would end up in a fight-if they were taught properly- but, if you did, it can only help to have a bigger tool bag than your opponent.

A friend of mine that I received my BB with is also training at a different school today. We talk all the time and feel bad for those of us that got stuck in one dojo. What I learned in TSK (and I have a Brown Belt that will probably turn Black if I pass, this summer) in just submission grappling alone was worth signing up for me. I didn't learn any new kicks or punches having had a BB in Kenpo, but in the Kickboxing classes I learned a lot of counters, boxing strategies, changing angles while slipping, fighting a south paw and more. I got much better at kickboxing than I was prior. If they seem more expensive well, you get what you pay for.

I think you live in NY, right? If you're on Long Island or Manhattan you could train one month for $99.00 or I'll give a 50$ discount card and you tell me what you think. I mean this with true sincerity. If you live in Manhattan, I understand they recently built a school there that is like a sports club. That would be great for you to go to.

The little one is vomiting, so I have to go.
Later

doug maverick
11-13-2007, 09:59 PM
my karate days are over long over. chinese martial arts is so vast that i'm good with studing it. i've been studing xing yi chuan for 4 years and it is the style for me. it is simplicity at its finest. i'm not looking to be a professional fighter or anything i'm just looking to maintain health and to be able to do martial arts when i'm in my seventies. but hope your school grows big, and i wish you well

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-13-2007, 10:39 PM
I heard that tiger shulmans karate is easy. There were people in my kungfu class that switched from TSK to my school because they said it was to easy. I was going to go their also but I didn't think it was worth going to. People in my school make a joke out of tiger shulmans. I mean just look at the commercials for tiger shulmans, thats the most lamest stuff Ive ever seen. But Ive got to admitt they sure market their School well.

"Beware of the chi within JB"

Please see my post on page two.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-13-2007, 10:44 PM
I heard that tiger shulmans karate is easy. There were people in my kungfu class that switched from TSK to my school because they said it was to easy. I was going to go their also but I didn't think it was worth going to. People in my school make a joke out of tiger shulmans. I mean just look at the commercials for tiger shulmans, thats the most lamest stuff Ive ever seen. But Ive got to admitt they sure market their School well.

"Beware of the chi within JB"

To all who really want to know...
PLEASE SEE MY POST ON P.2 - kenpoTkdAckTSK

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-13-2007, 10:50 PM
Spoken like a true black belt which is a gentleman and a warrior. I respect your dedication to the arts, and consider you in high standing.
Later, and best wishes.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-15-2007, 09:39 PM
I have an adult student who has also been traiinng in TSK for about two years. She really enjoys it-great workout,motivational teacher. The training is divided into Core-which is your pad drills, combos,and self-defense techniques, Kickboxing, which is sparring, and Submission Grappling. It seems that you buy a set amount of hours, say, 200 hrs. You then take classes in each catagory, and depending on how many hours-time on the floor training, will determine you moving up in rank. It's not the same as giving rank for attendance, but it makes sense that if you are spending so many hours training, naturally yuor skill level increases. It's expensive ,but they do alot of demographic research before opening up a new location, and they only open up in upscale, high traffic strip malls.
She may be an exception to the rule as far as what an average TSK student is, as she has been doing MA for many years and has BB in Kenpo, TKD, trains in Hung-Ga with me, and does Tiger Shullman's Karate.
Tiger Shullman is totally MMA now, and was probably one of the first to completely revamp his curriculum to MMA.
All school owners are Tiger Shullman students, so they are highly motivated as well. Sounds like a good school to model.

TSK is an unbelievable organization. It is always revamping its' curriculum for the grappling and kick boxing because they have their top guys work with the best of the best in all sorts of styles. So as the Olympic Boxing trainers modify their techniques, so does TSK. So everyone in TSK should know that they're always learning cutting edge techniques all the time.

Kenpo is also the style I carry a BB in - as your wife does. I think it’s also an extremely pragmatic style.

The bottom line of all of it is; it enables a person to live at peace within himself knowing he can handle any situation of protecting his family or himself and is the last person that should raise his hands in anger. Every BB should learn and behave with restraint. It’s about walking with your head high and realizing that “arts” are NEVER perfected or they would be sciences. And most importantly – it’s about progress not perfection. I have more respect for the less talented people who work hard and always give their best rather then, the person who is simply more talented and achieves getting a BB because of that. Heart is the most important aspect, in my opinion, not talent.

Just my opinion.

SayocBlade
11-17-2007, 11:56 PM
TSK is an unbelievable organization. It is always revamping its' curriculum for the grappling and kick boxing because they have their top guys work with the best of the best in all sorts of styles. So as the Olympic Boxing trainers modify their techniques, so does TSK. So everyone in TSK should know that they're always learning cutting edge techniques all the time.

Kenpo is also the style I carry a BB in - as your wife does. I think it’s also an extremely pragmatic style.

The bottom line of all of it is; it enables a person to live at peace within himself knowing he can handle any situation of protecting his family or himself and is the last person that should raise his hands in anger. Every BB should learn and behave with restraint. It’s about walking with your head high and realizing that “arts” are NEVER perfected or they would be sciences. And most importantly – it’s about progress not perfection. I have more respect for the less talented people who work hard and always give their best rather then, the person who is simply more talented and achieves getting a BB because of that. Heart is the most important aspect, in my opinion, not talent.

Just my opinion.

You are correct in saying that TSK is always revamping their styles to comform with today's popular styles that are out there. Its a good marketing ploy to get people to come to their schools to train and sign up. (I'm not saying its bad at all) Most schools don't go with the latest and greatest martial art out there because they do not want to 'sub' out another instructor that knows more than the head instructor. Its a shame because most of the other schools out there think because their Sensei is a 6th degree black belt, that he knows EVERYTHING. In reality, he doesn't and tries to move you to something else that relates to MMA. It seems that you have gotten to see some other aspects of martial arts instead of sticking to one style. Good for you!

"Every BB should learn and behave with restraint". Let me add that not only Black Belts but martial artists as a whole regardless of rank. If you are taking martial arts, the first thing you are taught is to be humble. Never show off your stuff, or brag, etc. That will get you in trouble fast and you'll be defending yourself before you know it.

You have lots of good valid points. You're pro TSK and I don't blame you. The membership is enormous, the curriculum keeps up with today's arts (you're not sitting there in a horse stance throwing stiff blocks and punches), and its a well structured organization. If all schools were like this, everyone who signs up for martial arts would be getting their money's worth.

My .02 cents.....

SayocBlade

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-22-2007, 12:50 AM
I appreciate your comments greatly. You seem to have a good understanding of "the way" re: the martial arts...and that is - "humility".

I truly have been studying since I am 10, on and off, and have learned the same thing about martial arts as I have about college professors: It's easy to fall in to the spell of who you are currently studying under and not until you study with someone else, do you realize how much more there is to learn out there. That's the way of a true student - always being open-minded and teachable.
Happy Thanksgiving.
W
;)

SayocBlade
11-22-2007, 09:36 PM
Its called... 'Not seeing the light'. Everyone idolizes their teacher/sensei/shihan, etc. What they don't know is that someone else can teach you something new and better within that same style/system. Its unfortunate but everyone falls prey to that. Thank god you and I see the outside light..and no what's inside the barrel. :) Happy thanksgiving to you and you family :)

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-24-2007, 07:40 PM
re: you're handle "sayocblade". One of my closest friends whom I earned a BB in Kenpo with, has also seen the light, and is currently studying Kali and Sayoc. I think he's crazy and is gonna end up in jail if he ever uses those knives. Do you study sayoc? if so, what are your feelings about it?
:confused:

SayocBlade
11-24-2007, 11:02 PM
re: you're handle "sayocblade". One of my closest friends whom I earned a BB in Kenpo with, has also seen the light, and is currently studying Kali and Sayoc. I think he's crazy and is gonna end up in jail if he ever uses those knives. Do you study sayoc? if so, what are your feelings about it?
:confused:

He should be smarter than using a knife to defend himself. The knife is there for last resort or when the odds are totally against him like 8 to 1. Life isn't fair so a fight will not be fair either. Sayoc, kali, etc are all warriror arts. They teach defense just like kickboxing, etc. Most of the moves you use in Kali, sayoc can be used without weapons. Sayoc just uses blades all the time (and thats their quote, All blade all the time) but they also teach awareness. As one trains in Sayoc, its more that just slashing.

I wouldn't worry about your friend. Seems that he's intelligent enough to get a BB in kenpo, therefore he's just expanding his horizon in the arts. No shame in that. The more knowledge the better. Guarantee if there was a confrontation, he wouldn't pull out his blade. He would just walk away. If something were to come about, the knife would still be in his pocket while he defended himself.

As a note, there are always consequences to your actions in a violent confrontation. Whether or not your are armed, yes the penalities for concealed weapons carry and usage can be stiff, but also empty hand usage does the same. In a recent schoolyard altercation, a teenager was struck on the side of the neck, and a short time later passed out and died due to the swelling of the bruising shutting off the blood flow in his carotid artery.

In Sayoc Kali, they review cases of justifiable defense of one's self or others in the eyes of the law. Not only this, but we are constantly reminded (and Instructors reinforce this with the students as well) that not all conflicts result in the drawing and use of a weapon. The caveat is that we treat all attacks as if the are an armed one, de-escalating the use of force if necessary.

just my .02 :)

doug maverick
11-25-2007, 12:47 AM
I wouldn't worry about your friend. Seems that he's intelligent enough to get a BB in kenpo,

hey i know some real *******s and idiots who have third and forth degree black belts in kenpo. and i wouldn't trust them around a tooth pick let alone a knife. while in theory gaining a black belt should come from building your character as well as your body mind and spirit it does not. we all know it to be true. anyway continue on with your conversation just thought i'd add that. also not saying your friend is dumb just saying.

SayocBlade
11-25-2007, 06:02 PM
hey i know some real *******s and idiots who have third and forth degree black belts in kenpo. and i wouldn't trust them around a tooth pick let alone a knife. while in theory gaining a black belt should come from building your character as well as your body mind and spirit it does not. we all know it to be true. anyway continue on with your conversation just thought i'd add that. also not saying your friend is dumb just saying.

Oops! sorry, I was writing this at 2am and I was doing the death nod while drinkiing a cup of coffee to wake up! LOL..sorry

You are correct. I meant to say that he was at least responsible enough to get a BB in Kenpo. I sorta know where this guy KenpoTkdAckTSK received his bb from and if anyone gets their bb from this school, they are responsible..and I would trust them with a toothpick and knife :) All the kenpo bb from this school are responsible enough NOT to get into trouble and so forth. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-25-2007, 08:44 PM
How was your t-giving? Hope it was as nice as mine.

I believe you said you study Chinese Martial Arts. Did you know that Kenpo's roots go back to the Shaolin Temples? You have to stop focusing on the losers which are present in EVERY style, and determining which is the best art to know based on the students rather than the school.

We all know from watching the first UFC competitions, with Gracie beating everyone with his grappling skills and greatly impacted the martial arts world because it put to rest those laborious and tedious arguments of which style is best.

Everyone with a brain learned that not having ground technique is very limiting especially against a bigger opponent.

Also, i was told that Bruce Lee also believed in taking in other techniques such as Savate, and Grappling. He was 35 years ahead of the curve. Is this true...you're the CMA expert.
Night

And thank you for proving my point when you said some of these kenpo guys were 3rd and 4th degree black belts! Who promoted them? so many of the local schools self promote their students. In TSK, you're simply given a number and sent to NJ headquarters to test for black in Core(technique) CRD (close range defense) Kick boxing and grappling. There is a different committee for all 4 areas and ALL of it is overseen by Shihan. Getting a 3rd degree in TSK is next to impossible! And like Judo only, the test is overseen at many levels but it is structured and fair. No favors for anyone. That's what I respect about it along with other reasons.

doug maverick
11-25-2007, 09:35 PM
yes i know the history of kenpo. one guy i know whose a fourth degree was actually promoted by a student of mister ed parker, the other got his in japan when where he is from. i studied small circle jiu jutsu and brazillian jiu jutsu so i know something about ground game. as for CMA expert i don;t know anybody who can claim that. even masters can't claim that CMA is vast hundreds of systems from grappling to striking.i believe in cross training its good to have an understanding of defferent styles of martial arts. however the martial arts is filled with alot of bad guys some guys had no choice but to go that way other guys just were bad from the start. my first kung fu teacher was actually in the triad and is currently doing life in jail. now here's the funny thing he was a great guy and an even better teacher and i didn't know what he was invovled in till i got a phone call from him telling me the school was closing and then later finding out it was because he was going to jail for a long time. but the two dim wits i'm talk about the kenpo guys are just really stupid not in intelligence just in the things they do.

P.S. my thanks giving was great went to the gym the next day to work off all the food i scarfed down.

SayocBlade
11-26-2007, 07:08 PM
Also, i was told that Bruce Lee also believed in taking in other techniques such as Savate, and Grappling. He was 35 years ahead of the curve. Is this true...you're the CMA expert.

And thank you for proving my point when you said some of these kenpo guys were 3rd and 4th degree black belts! Who promoted them? so many of the local schools self promote their students. In TSK, you're simply given a number and sent to NJ headquarters to test for black in Core(technique) CRD (close range defense) Kick boxing and grappling. There is a different committee for all 4 areas and ALL of it is overseen by Shihan. Getting a 3rd degree in TSK is next to impossible! And like Judo only, the test is overseen at many levels but it is structured and fair. No favors for anyone. That's what I respect about it along with other reasons.

Yes, Bruce Lee was very interested in other arts. He incorporated lots of other styles into his own art. If you ever read the book, the Tao Of Jeet Kune Do, you'll see his styles took on lots of boxing and grappling. Now I'm not saying he was a Gracie or Mohommad Ali but he knew that there was some sort of grappling/boxing that each individual had to learn.

doug maverick
11-26-2007, 07:45 PM
but yet his whole system is still based on wing chun theory. i read tao of jeet kuen do. while it does have grabs(which kung fu has, it has a whole system dedicated to it Chin na) it doesn't really have grappling. what it does focus on is striking, mostly center line strike finger jabs etc.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-28-2007, 07:28 PM
I haven't read Bruce Lee's writings. I know about his interest in grappling from a friend of mine only. You seem to be well read on your art form. Good for you. If only others would act the same way as you, we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads trashing other styles because in the end it's about respect, humility, and dedication. I enjoy talking with you and look forward to hearing from you again.
sincerely,
W:)

SayocBlade
11-28-2007, 07:48 PM
I haven't read Bruce Lee's writings. I know about his interest in grappling from a friend of mine only. You seem to be well read on your art form. Good for you. If only others would act the same way as you, we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads trashing other styles because in the end it's about respect, humility, and dedication. I enjoy talking with you and look forward to hearing from you again.
sincerely,
W:)

Thanks, I too have a blackbelt in Kenpo. I came from a good school but the school isn't part of the USKKA (United States Kenpo Karate Association). Whatever though but I learned how to fight well. Thats all that matters in the street right? Now I have weapons training that gives me an edge on my opponent. The martial arts world is small, perhaps we'll run into each other one day :)

KenpoTkdAckTSK
11-29-2007, 08:32 PM
My Kenpo school is not part of the USKKA either! I wonder if we are from the same school?
How can we figure this out anonymously?

SayocBlade
12-01-2007, 07:42 AM
My Kenpo school is not part of the USKKA either! I wonder if we are from the same school?
How can we figure this out anonymously?

Perhaps we could see if your 'kung fu is better than mine' or in our case, if your kenpo is better than mine! hahahhahahah just kidding.

have a nice weekend :)

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-02-2007, 07:53 AM
What's your weight and height? I'm 5'10 172 pd.s and I'm in my 40's.
How about yourself?
:)

No blades though.
:)

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-02-2007, 07:54 AM
Began training in the martial arts as a child in New York.Has trained and competed throughout the continental United States,Hawaii,and internationally in Japan and Israel.

North American Mas Oyama Full-Contact Karate Champion for six consecutive years (1979-1984),an accomplishment still unequalled today. US representative in the World Open Full-Contact Karate Championships in Tokyo, Japan,1979.Was the youngest and lightest fighter,and one of only eight chosen nationwide.

Winner of over 100 forms and fighting competitions.
Retired undefeated from competition to create a style of martial arts that combines the most effective streetwise self-defense from the various styles he studied.This hybrid style is known today as Tiger Schulmann’s Karate.

Spearheaded the development and growth of Tiger Schulmann’s Karate from 1 school (1984)to 36 schools (2001),located in New York,New Jersey,Pennsylvania, Connecticut,and Florida.

Received national recognition for his “proven recipe of success on the street”fea-tured in Black Belt Magazine -June 1999,Karate/Kung-Fu illustrated -October 1994,Fighter Magazine -February 1988 and M.A.Training Magazine.

Currently oversees Tiger Schulmann’s Karate Headquarters and Instructor Training Center,a 15,000 square foot state of the art facility,located in northern New Jersey,where he personally trains each of his instructors.

SayocBlade
12-02-2007, 12:51 PM
What's your weight and height? I'm 5'10 172 pd.s and I'm in my 40's.
How about yourself?
:)

No blades though.
:)

almost the same...

5'10, 185lbs, i'm in my early 30's.

must have blades..life isn't fair...is it? LOL. Just kidding..

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-03-2007, 04:59 PM
Well if you need blades then can I just bring a gun?
lol

:confused:

SayocBlade
12-03-2007, 05:58 PM
Well if you need blades then can I just bring a gun?
lol

:confused:

sure..try to draw it on me...guarantee i'll get a knife in your body and another one coming to your neck before the gun comes out of your holster! LOL

I'll explain one day.

Anyway, enough of this. I sent you a private message. Look on top of the page to the right, its says Private Message. Let me know. Thanks

Sayocblade
*All Blade, All the time*
*Atienza Kali-Discipline of the blade*

冠木侍
12-05-2007, 10:48 PM
People can say what they will about Tiger Schulmann. It is not perfect and I do have some criticisms with their policies.

I can say from experience that it had prepared and conditioned me to continue on to other martial arts. I originally started out with a traditional art and was looking for something along the same lines. After taking a partial class, I decided to join even though it was non-traditional. The workouts were some of the best that I have ever been through. Coupled with regular workouts at the gym, my conditioning improved a lot.

I guess depending on the Sensei, some schools were run a little differently than others. They told me that there were no weapons trainings at this particular school which was fine.

Drilling me with basics in the beginning, I was able to improve my punches. This was a big help for later on. And one of the more interesting aspects of the curriculum is their course on Submission Grappling. If you are a UFC fan or watch the Ultimate Fighter ever now and then, you know that ground techniques are part of the equation. I learned a lot and when i watch matches, I can understand some of the terminology like passing the guard or side control. The exposure was very educational and I learned a few moves that have worked elsewhere. Having gone up against people bigger and stronger than myself, I was able to improve and see the things that needed improvement in my game.

Due to some issues, I have not been there to train in a while. (has nothing to do with the proceeding critiques).

Some criticisms I have (based on what I remember about their policies when I was still training);

The payment plan was not very flexible and it took a considerable chunk out of my wallet initially. Having not much money to begin with, it hit me hard.

The commercials, even though entertaining, are a bit misleading. All the participants are black belts.

It is not nor ever really was "karate". It is, and I've heard it advertised (occasionally) as a MMA. Parents would ask what style of "karate" and there would be no answer to that.

The "gear" could be very costly if bought all at once.

Other than those and some that I decided to leave out, I think it is a good starting point for people who are trying to stay in shape, meet new people and learn striking and ground techniques. I wonder if the payment policy has changed.

When I hear people criticize, I can agree with some comments and at others, I just shake my head.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-08-2007, 11:57 PM
When I joined TSK, they had already been teaching Muay Tai kick boxing, Core, and S. Grappling. And yes they are, in fact already have, changed their name to TSMMA.
anyone who remembers the original UFC where Royce Gracie beat everyone with S. Grappling, the Martial Arts world was completely changed forever. It was a no-brainer that surviving a fight had to include S. Grappling. MMA schools are popping up everywhere, but they are really just bringing in a grappler once a week and few learn it well.

Then, just within, i would say 1-2 years ago, Gracie returned and was tapped out by Matt Hughes in 1 min and 40 sec.'s Again the world of M. Arts was rocked to see just how fast good fighters could adapt to the new situation.

It was really the grappling at TSK that drew me in. It happens to be excellently taught by people who really know their stuff.
As far as the money thing goes, Martial Art schools have to pay the bills to run their school. Local places often charge less but make you wait longer to advance making this whole thing a wash.

SayocBlade
12-09-2007, 08:40 AM
As far as the money thing goes, Martial Art schools have to pay the bills to run their school. Local places often charge less but make you wait longer to advance making this whole thing a wash.

Its all about money. If they advance you too fast, they don't get money for your promotions, belts, etc.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-09-2007, 09:22 PM
You pay for your college and graduate education and what you're simply paying for is knowledge. So why should Martial Arts be any different?

SayocBlade
12-10-2007, 06:12 PM
You pay for your college and graduate education and what you're simply paying for is knowledge. So why should Martial Arts be any different?

Its is different my friend. When you pay for college, you pay to get an education and you take a test to fail or pass. If you fail, you still have to take the course again and take the test. In martial arts, if you don't get techniques, or you're sloppy, and you've been at that rank for a while, they will still pass you... they don't want you to be frustrated or just sitting there at blue belt or whatever. I know most schools are not like this but I've seen plenty like it.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-10-2007, 09:37 PM
I can assure you of this about TSK or TSMMA, their is absolutely no social promotions at all. Of'Course the woman fight the woman and the men fight the men in the BB test. The only other organization to actually have an over site committee is JUDO (since 1964) that, every judo BB has to go in front of.

"...Karate, and all its off shoots, are the most corrupt when it comes to BB's, and that explains the difference in ability that is so wide in the BB club..." - Paraphrasing the Encyclopedia of Martial Arts.

冠木侍
12-11-2007, 07:24 AM
Its is different my friend. When you pay for college, you pay to get an education and you take a test to fail or pass. If you fail, you still have to take the course again and take the test. In martial arts, if you don't get techniques, or you're sloppy, and you've been at that rank for a while, they will still pass you... they don't want you to be frustrated or just sitting there at blue belt or whatever. I know most schools are not like this but I've seen plenty like it.

Some schools operate like that and some don't. I remember at a certain TSK test, one of the students could not perform some of the physical aspects of the test. And they did not pass her. She had to wait for the next exam. I respected that.

Even in another school. I find that there is no guarantee of "passing." That is on your ability. We just pay to take the test. Almost like at a university.

I guess it depends on the school and how the chief instructor runs things. Some are into quality and some are in it for the dinero.

しかたがありあねえん。 We just need to shop around.

冠木侍
12-11-2007, 07:37 AM
When I joined TSK, they had already been teaching Muay Tai kick boxing, Core, and S. Grappling. And yes they are, in fact already have, changed their name to TSMMA.
anyone who remembers the original UFC where Royce Gracie beat everyone with S. Grappling, the Martial Arts world was completely changed forever. It was a no-brainer that surviving a fight had to include S. Grappling. MMA schools are popping up everywhere, but they are really just bringing in a grappler once a week and few learn it well.

Then, just within, i would say 1-2 years ago, Gracie returned and was tapped out by Matt Hughes in 1 min and 40 sec.'s Again the world of M. Arts was rocked to see just how fast good fighters could adapt to the new situation.

It was really the grappling at TSK that drew me in. It happens to be excellently taught by people who really know their stuff.
As far as the money thing goes, Martial Art schools have to pay the bills to run their school. Local places often charge less but make you wait longer to advance making this whole thing a wash.

I did not know about submission grappling until I learned it. Adapting to ground techniques was fun. At the time, I was still adjusting to striking as well, so the learning process was very enlightening.

I think Gracie was on the cover of Black Belt Magazine. Just a reminiscent look back at the evolution of MMA and how he changed it forever. Even though he got beat by Hughes, it still doesn't mean he isn't good. Time stands still for no one...not even martial artists. Like you said, the learning curve seems to be getting less and less. The contemporary fighters know it is important to learn grappling and it is a standard in the curriculum.

Right now, I'm seeing if I can perfect a kimura from different positions. It's hard because I don't train as much as I used to (grppling). Going by instruction alone works good for strikes. But as you well know, for grappling, emulation is difficult. It's like feeling your way in the dark and looking for an opening, without looking.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-11-2007, 08:51 PM
Because of my experience in Tae Kwon Do, and the Kick boxing in Kenpo, I still, to this day feel much more "in my comfort zone" of stand up kick boxing. However, I have also come to feel that within their [TSK] kick boxing (which, is tai Kick boxing without the elbows) I have learned a lot more about boxing skills then my kicking skills, which were always my strength and the reason thereof...it's not because they don't teach how to kick.

I've come to the sad realization that S. grappling to Tai Kick boxing is like Chess to Checkers. It really does take a long time for your body to develop the muscle memory of all the grappling moves and counters. Muscle memory being equal in this case to the term "Second Nature"

I'm prepared to go that route. I need goals in my life or i implode!

SayocBlade
12-11-2007, 10:04 PM
Because of my experience in Tae Kwon Do, and the Kick boxing in Kenpo, I still, to this day feel much more "in my comfort zone" of stand up kick boxing. However, I have also come to feel that within their [TSK] kick boxing (which, is tai Kick boxing without the elbows) I have learned a lot more about boxing skills then my kicking skills, which were always my strength and the reason thereof...it's not because they don't teach how to kick.

I've come to the sad realization that S. grappling to Tai Kick boxing is like Chess to Checkers. It really does take a long time for your body to develop the muscle memory of all the grappling moves and counters. Muscle memory being equal in this case to the term "Second Nature"

I'm prepared to go that route. I need goals in my life or i implode!

Yes, i agree with you. When training for many years as a stand up fighter and then try to fight on the ground, its hard as hell. I don't like to grapple but I do know how to do somethig if the situation calls for it. You're more comfortable in what you like to do. If you have to go the other route, be prepared and hopefully your training will help you out.

SayocBlade
12-11-2007, 10:10 PM
I can assure you of this about TSK or TSMMA, their is absolutely no social promotions at all. Of'Course the woman fight the woman and the men fight the men in the BB test. The only other organization to actually have an over site committee is JUDO (since 1964) that, every judo BB has to go in front of.

"...Karate, and all its off shoots, are the most corrupt when it comes to BB's, and that explains the difference in ability that is so wide in the BB club..." - Paraphrasing the Encyclopedia of Martial Arts.

Yes. I've seen it where the BB does come into social play. I used to take Isshin-Ryu and there was this one brown belt, 3rd degree, and he *****ed and moaned for his Blackbelt. I saw him on Monday, Wednesday he had his blackbelt. Everything was hush hush about it till I found out about it. Nevertheless, I quit and never came back. He was a total ass*ole anyway. He was this big muscle bounded guy that thought since he had muscle, he could beat every teenager in the house..LOL!!!!!!! But one time his little 4 yr old son was in our class. The son held up a kicking shield and the father (the newly bb), took a back kick to it. The son had his hands up and popped himself in the mouth. The kick was 75% full power... and the kid was bleeding. What an ass.. that was the last straw. Not only did he cry for his blackbelt, he didn't set a good example.

冠木侍
12-12-2007, 03:29 PM
Because of my experience in Tae Kwon Do, and the Kick boxing in Kenpo, I still, to this day feel much more "in my comfort zone" of stand up kick boxing. However, I have also come to feel that within their [TSK] kick boxing (which, is tai Kick boxing without the elbows) I have learned a lot more about boxing skills then my kicking skills, which were always my strength and the reason thereof...it's not because they don't teach how to kick.

I've come to the sad realization that S. grappling to Tai Kick boxing is like Chess to Checkers. It really does take a long time for your body to develop the muscle memory of all the grappling moves and counters. Muscle memory being equal in this case to the term "Second Nature"

I'm prepared to go that route. I need goals in my life or i implode!

That analogy is appropriate. The chief instructor was explaining to us the difference between stand up fighting and ground techniques. I'm starting to feel comfortable with both but there's always room for improvement.

Goals are necessary. In addition, learning from challenge and change is another facet that I try to follow (a motto taken from a business).

冠木侍
12-12-2007, 03:49 PM
Yes. I've seen it where the BB does come into social play. I used to take Isshin-Ryu and there was this one brown belt, 3rd degree, and he *****ed and moaned for his Blackbelt. I saw him on Monday, Wednesday he had his blackbelt. Everything was hush hush about it till I found out about it. Nevertheless, I quit and never came back. He was a total ass*ole anyway. He was this big muscle bounded guy that thought since he had muscle, he could beat every teenager in the house..LOL!!!!!!! But one time his little 4 yr old son was in our class. The son held up a kicking shield and the father (the newly bb), took a back kick to it. The son had his hands up and popped himself in the mouth. The kick was 75% full power... and the kid was bleeding. What an ass.. that was the last straw. Not only did he cry for his blackbelt, he didn't set a good example.

So, if I read this correctly...this dude made his own son bleed?! Nice (not). I bet Father's Day wasn't so special that year.

People like that make me sick. At the gym, I see guys with that type of mentality all the time. They may be strong but they are still lacking something.

Bravo. I think I would have left in a similar situation. There's no way you could train knowing that your superiors did not earn their ranks (at least that is my opinion).

And as for that dude, he must be some piece of work if he would actually strut around in a Black Belt that he earned by whining. The symbol of the BB was totally lost. I'm sure his four year old son was more mature than he was.

I don't know. Maybe I've matured over the years but I find that a lot of times, belts cause more trouble than they are worth. Too much emphasis on color and not on skill, ability or attitude. As one chief instructor had said..."In the street, everyone's a white belt. I take it to mean that when you meet a stranger, you don't know what he knows. There is no indication of training (if any at all or to what degree); so to get into a physical confrontation should be a last resort. I know my own abilities and have no need to show off unnecessarily or to go looking for trouble.

SayocBlade
12-12-2007, 07:28 PM
So, if I read this correctly...this dude made his own son bleed?! Nice (not). I bet Father's Day wasn't so special that year.

People like that make me sick. At the gym, I see guys with that type of mentality all the time. They may be strong but they are still lacking something.

Bravo. I think I would have left in a similar situation. There's no way you could train knowing that your superiors did not earn their ranks (at least that is my opinion).

And as for that dude, he must be some piece of work if he would actually strut around in a Black Belt that he earned by whining. The symbol of the BB was totally lost. I'm sure his four year old son was more mature than he was.

I don't know. Maybe I've matured over the years but I find that a lot of times, belts cause more trouble than they are worth. Too much emphasis on color and not on skill, ability or attitude. As one chief instructor had said..."In the street, everyone's a white belt. I take it to mean that when you meet a stranger, you don't know what he knows. There is no indication of training (if any at all or to what degree); so to get into a physical confrontation should be a last resort. I know my own abilities and have no need to show off unnecessarily or to go looking for trouble.

Yup. He was so proud of his blackbelt. I found out how he whined about getting his black belt a few years after one of the instructors left also. Said he was a crying *****..LOL .

Yes, the place where I'm at, my instructor doesn't like rank either but he does it to see where everyone is with the cirriculum. Whatever, I like what your chief instructor said about everyone being a white belt. Very interesting!

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-12-2007, 07:42 PM
I agree with both of you entirely. Obviously this ******* never learned "the way" that every good BB should know. It was pretty well demonstrated if recollection serves me on the TV show Kung Fu. Strength through Humility, Sacrifice, being the better person, Giving to others, and pushing yourself beyond your limits. etc.

As far as Do Jo edicate... It's not about being able to kick everyones ass including maybe the Sensei, that determines a persons' rank or, they wouldn't have had weight classes in boxing since the turn of the 20th Century! For god sake!What Stupidity!

At least in TSK there are so many students, close to 70K, there is ALWAYS somebody they have to match your size, strength and skills. From what I understand from my friends who have recently earned their blacks,the word is..." do what you have to do...no more and no less. if you just happen to luckily face someone you can take advantage of...DON'T!"

Good people on this thread.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-12-2007, 08:15 PM
;)I too saw a "social promotion" in the Kenpo school I earned a BB from. Only this guy guy was just SO pathetic he would have never passed the test! The test for the rest of us was brutal but comprehensive. 75 Sit-ups and Push ups. Then, in front of all kinds of onlookers i.e. parents, friends and others - I had to perform 160 self-defense moves against every attack under the sun, and they all had 2 or 3 sub-parts, 9 Katas, and then 12 three minute rounds with one minute in between against a fresh BB each round. what made it kind of brutal was that a tradition started by the original or first wave of BB's was passed down to all of us and, that was anything goes! They literally kick the **** out of you. Then there is an interview to break you phsycologically- this is insanity.
But this whiner got a pass on the test after months of complaining! What Bull****!
He was just too lazy to get his fat ass in shape enough to actually have a chance!
Well, there it is. The truth and nothing but the truth. I don't even remember 5 out of the 12 rounds. I was on sheer auto-pilot!

SayocBlade
12-15-2007, 12:25 AM
;)I too saw a "social promotion" in the Kenpo school I earned a BB from. Only this guy guy was just SO pathetic he would have never passed the test! The test for the rest of us was brutal but comprehensive. 75 Sit-ups and Push ups. Then, in front of all kinds of onlookers i.e. parents, friends and others - I had to perform 160 self-defense moves against every attack under the sun, and they all had 2 or 3 sub-parts, 9 Katas, and then 12 three minute rounds with one minute in between against a fresh BB each round. what made it kind of brutal was that a tradition started by the original or first wave of BB's was passed down to all of us and, that was anything goes! They literally kick the **** out of you. Then there is an interview to break you phsycologically- this is insanity.
But this whiner got a pass on the test after months of complaining! What Bull****!
He was just too lazy to get his fat ass in shape enough to actually have a chance!
Well, there it is. The truth and nothing but the truth. I don't even remember 5 out of the 12 rounds. I was on sheer auto-pilot!

wow, seems like a rough test. But let me ask you this. You got your butt kicked for 12 rounds, 3 minutes each. Does that determine that you were a blackbelt or that you knew your stuff? Let just say for arugments sake, a 17yr old kid can do all of your stuff within a year. Jump in the ring, fight 12 black belts for 3 minutes each, would he deserve a blackbelt because he can do all of this or because he survived? 4 Questoins, different views on each. Would like to hear you out on this.

what happened to the 'whiner' blackbelt? Is he teaching? Does he have his own school? Did he ever slim down?

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-15-2007, 04:35 PM
1. "wow, seems like a rough test. But let me ask you this. You got your butt kicked for 12 rounds, 3 minutes each. Does that determine that you were a black belt or that you knew your stuff?

ans. -The test , from what was explained to me later, wasn't about winning. It was about "heart". Each person was watched closely to see if they had too much or too little left around round six. If he thought you had too much, he would send in some one rough. So it wouldn't matter if you were 40 or 20 - everyone was pushed beyond their limits. And, - NO, that is not all there is to it. And even if a guy trained (took privates) 5 days per week, I would find it hard for him to learn all of the 160+ self-defense moves and 9 Kata's that are required.


2. "what happened to the 'whiner' black belt? Is he teaching? Does he have his own school? Did he ever slim down?"

ans. He disappeared I think to Florida and tried to open his own school. All I remember was my Sensei complaining about him emailing for advice all the time. Then I lost all track of it, and never heard about it again.

Does this suffice?

冠木侍
12-15-2007, 11:51 PM
Yup. He was so proud of his blackbelt. I found out how he whined about getting his black belt a few years after one of the instructors left also. Said he was a crying *****..LOL .

Yes, the place where I'm at, my instructor doesn't like rank either but he does it to see where everyone is with the cirriculum. Whatever, I like what your chief instructor said about everyone being a white belt. Very interesting!

Well, it was one of my former chief instructors. Just one of those phrases that stuck in my head.

Yep, I thought it worth mentioning. I'm glad that it was able to translate well.

冠木侍
12-15-2007, 11:56 PM
;)I too saw a "social promotion" in the Kenpo school I earned a BB from. Only this guy guy was just SO pathetic he would have never passed the test! The test for the rest of us was brutal but comprehensive. 75 Sit-ups and Push ups. Then, in front of all kinds of onlookers i.e. parents, friends and others - I had to perform 160 self-defense moves against every attack under the sun, and they all had 2 or 3 sub-parts, 9 Katas, and then 12 three minute rounds with one minute in between against a fresh BB each round. what made it kind of brutal was that a tradition started by the original or first wave of BB's was passed down to all of us and, that was anything goes! They literally kick the **** out of you. Then there is an interview to break you phsycologically- this is insanity.
But this whiner got a pass on the test after months of complaining! What Bull****!
He was just too lazy to get his fat ass in shape enough to actually have a chance!
Well, there it is. The truth and nothing but the truth. I don't even remember 5 out of the 12 rounds. I was on sheer auto-pilot!

I wonder. I've heard stories of the first degree BB test but no one really talks about it. Aren't you giving away something that is supposed to be kept secret?

I would rather have sate out then let them take it easy on me. Why would I pay all that money (i'm assuming it costs a lot for the tests) for something that I did not earn on my own?

Yes, I agree. There are some good, decent people in this thread. Gives me a better perspective on the martial arts...indeed.

SayocBlade
12-16-2007, 09:11 PM
1. "wow, seems like a rough test. But let me ask you this. You got your butt kicked for 12 rounds, 3 minutes each. Does that determine that you were a black belt or that you knew your stuff?

ans. -The test , from what was explained to me later, wasn't about winning. It was about "heart". Each person was watched closely to see if they had too much or too little left around round six. If he thought you had too much, he would send in some one rough. So it wouldn't matter if you were 40 or 20 - everyone was pushed beyond their limits. And, - NO, that is not all there is to it. And even if a guy trained (took privates) 5 days per week, I would find it hard for him to learn all of the 160+ self-defense moves and 9 Kata's that are required.


2. "what happened to the 'whiner' black belt? Is he teaching? Does he have his own school? Did he ever slim down?"

ans. He disappeared I think to Florida and tried to open his own school. All I remember was my Sensei complaining about him emailing for advice all the time. Then I lost all track of it, and never heard about it again.


Interesting..



Does this suffice?
Yes. I'm not meaning to nit pick your stuff. Just asking a question. Sorry if it looks like I came off that way.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-17-2007, 12:52 PM
I will always be honest and I did not take it as nit-picking.
Take care.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-17-2007, 12:58 PM
I wonder. I've heard stories of the first degree BB test but no one really talks about it. Aren't you giving away something that is supposed to be kept secret?

I would rather have sate out then let them take it easy on me. Why would I pay all that money (i'm assuming it costs a lot for the tests) for something that I did not earn on my own?

Yes, I agree. There are some good, decent people in this thread. Gives me a better perspective on the martial arts...indeed.


Yes...things about the test are supposed to be kept secret. But I didn't tell you anything that any person who watched the tests don't know. Maybe the interview. But everyone saw us going in for the interview as well, and I didn't exactly say anything about the details of the interview. I kept those to my self.

冠木侍
12-17-2007, 01:32 PM
Yes...things about the test are supposed to be kept secret. But I didn't tell you anything that any person who watched the tests don't know. Maybe the interview. But everyone saw us going in for the interview as well, and I didn't exactly say anything about the details of the interview. I kept those to my self.

I see. So people are allowed to watch you test or was it only the chosen few (chief instructors, black belts...etc) that watched the test? Of course, those who saw the test know what went on. I think what I was getting at was the nature of how much was made public. In some schools, I've seen where parents had recorded their children testing in each phase. And then there are some schools where parents are not allowed to attend the ranking tests. In my experience, people tend not to talk about the tests...at least not in the detail that you had described. Just something that stuck out during the discussions.

TSK usually holds such tests at the Rex Plex. I believe that such events are open to the public (the testing portions). I guess it depends on the school.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-19-2007, 07:57 PM
The tests were open to the public, but only BB's were in the interview which is the secretive part that I didn't divulge. There was another part of the test that I did not mention at all as well. But no, it's not just students or instructors who get to see tests.

At TSK, they are completely transparent about their tests, and you can find that information on their website. They hide nothing.

Take care

SayocBlade
12-19-2007, 09:35 PM
The tests were open to the public, but only BB's were in the interview which is the secretive part that I didn't divulge. There was another part of the test that I did not mention at all as well. But no, it's not just students or instructors who get to see tests.

At TSK, they are completely transparent about their tests, and you can find that information on their website. They hide nothing.

Take care

I think all schools should have something that's hidden from the general public. Why should they show you everything?

冠木侍
12-19-2007, 10:11 PM
I think all schools should have something that's hidden from the general public. Why should they show you everything?

There are aspects that are esoteric. Some schools are open about their methods, and some aren't. I'm sure with your experience, you know about stuff like that.

冠木侍
12-19-2007, 10:16 PM
The tests were open to the public, but only BB's were in the interview which is the secretive part that I didn't divulge. There was another part of the test that I did not mention at all as well. But no, it's not just students or instructors who get to see tests.

At TSK, they are completely transparent about their tests, and you can find that information on their website. They hide nothing.

Take care

The workout portion seems to be a common factor. It's intensity just increases with rank. I appreciate you taking time out to consider my question. Well, it was more of a concern I guess. But you seem to be assured that nothing significant was divulged and only you would know about such things (as it pertains to your test).

I just thought it was an interesting topic.

TSK is very open about what they do. I don't know if that is to their benefit or detriment.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-20-2007, 11:09 PM
I think all schools should have something that's hidden from the general public. Why should they show you everything?

In Kenpo for example, if you just go to you tube and punch in Kenpo, you will some pretty brutal stuff. As a student you learn HOW to do them, and as a BB you learn WHEN to use it , how to use it against different types of opponents - one thing I learned in grappling is - strength MATTERS - so you must be able to adapt quickly, and there are deadly moves in every style that should be kept private.

But on the other hand, TSK is an open book and I think that's a GOOD thing too.
So, i guess i don't really mind either philosophy as long as people are respectful enough to follow what ever their school says.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE A GOOD SUCCER PUNCH!

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-21-2007, 09:42 PM
Is it just me, or is fighting a competent fighter who has the reach over you a *****?
5'10 is average height, but i have short arms I think. Sometimes I just take one to give one. Can anyone relate?:mad:

SayocBlade
12-22-2007, 02:15 PM
Is it just me, or is fighting a competent fighter who has the reach over you a *****?
5'10 is average height, but i have short arms I think. Sometimes I just take one to give one. Can anyone relate?:mad:

If both of you are competent fighters, you should always be one step ahead of this guy. You should have a plan and stick to it to defeat him on whatever his game is. You don't have short arms. If you did, you would have known since growing up! LOL. Remember, its just like boxing and karate. You have angles, fade in and fade out, and speed. All that will get you around you oppenent even if he's competent. :)

冠木侍
12-22-2007, 06:51 PM
Is it just me, or is fighting a competent fighter who has the reach over you a *****?
5'10 is average height, but i have short arms I think. Sometimes I just take one to give one. Can anyone relate?:mad:

A competent fighter can and will use their reach as an advantage. You can always take one to get one because in the street that will no doubt be the case. However, in point sparring, that may be a different story. So, use the hands to fake and distract, then throw some kicks when they are expecting some hand strikes. You know your stuff and you will be able to feel out the opponent after some seconds of exchanging blows. Use what you were taught and sometimes even for a BB, basics get the job done just as well.

Hope that helps.


If both of you are competent fighters, you should always be one step ahead of this guy. You should have a plan and stick to it to defeat him on whatever his game is. You don't have short arms. If you did, you would have known since growing up! LOL. Remember, its just like boxing and karate. You have angles, fade in and fade out, and speed. All that will get you around you oppenent even if he's competent. :)


This makes sense. I was told how angles would give the advantage as well. Speed is a great help and developing it has helped me be a better student in the eyes of my teacher. Always have a plan, a back up and one to back that up just in case. When fighting a real-life moving target, the variables are difficult to foresee.

SayocBlade
12-22-2007, 10:13 PM
Hey man..whats your name? its in Chinese and I can't read it :)

Anyway you did have a good point. But I'm wondering if KenpoTkdAckTSK was asking about a sparring full contact match, point sparring or street fight? If it was a street fight, I would toss Muy Thai elbows into the scene to counter the long reach by the other opponent. Or..if you get an inch of sunlight to break through his defenses, take it all and take the opponent down. Then thats when it gets interesting..

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-23-2007, 12:16 AM
Full contact sparring with gear, muay tai without the elbows.( to answer one persons question) I know all about "in and out", easier said then done. I look to the great boxers i.e. Joe Frasier, who seem to share this with me and what they did to overcome it, but boxing doesn't include knees and kicks so it's not a great thing to learn from if you don't know the difference between which boxing techniques are OK to use and which ones are unsafe against a mauy tai fighter. I.e. Mostly "rolling under" techniques toward the center will line you up perfectly for a knee (devastating).

I was just throwin that out there. Glad to see so many responses.

I tend to slip toward the out side anyway so I have only caught two knees in my life. but one of them was against a good fighter, and a SOUTH PAW (which probably explains it. i was probably circling to the right when I should have been circling to the left), and man - even at half power the knee felt like it broke my eye bone.

冠木侍
12-23-2007, 06:28 PM
Hey man..whats your name? its in Chinese and I can't read it :)

Anyway you did have a good point. But I'm wondering if KenpoTkdAckTSK was asking about a sparring full contact match, point sparring or street fight? If it was a street fight, I would toss Muy Thai elbows into the scene to counter the long reach by the other opponent. Or..if you get an inch of sunlight to break through his defenses, take it all and take the opponent down. Then thats when it gets interesting..

I used the kanji; It is supposed to read KabukiSamurai. Sorry for the inconvenience. I guess I was under the impression that someone had translated it because no one had asked me until now. :p I rarely ever see user names in other characters so I thought it would be cool to do for a forum like this.

"An inch of sunlight." Pretty good analogy in regards to combat. I guess that's all you need to get in there and do what you gotta do. Yeah, taking it down to the ground does yield interesting results.

I was searching YouTube the other day (something that I don't usually do) and came across a video of Royce Gracie demonstrating his Brazilian Ju-jutsu against a skeptic Hapkido master. Needless to say, when Gracie took him down and mounted, the fight was over (the guy would not admit defeat and lost a total of three times). It was one of his early demonstrations.

I wish I could provide the link.

冠木侍
12-23-2007, 07:11 PM
Full contact sparring with gear, muay tai without the elbows.( to answer one persons question) I know all about "in and out", easier said then done. I look to the great boxers i.e. Joe Frasier, who seem to share this with me and what they did to overcome it, but boxing doesn't include knees and kicks so it's not a great thing to learn from if you don't know the difference between which boxing techniques are OK to use and which ones are unsafe against a mauy tai fighter. I.e. Mostly "rolling under" techniques toward the center will line you up perfectly for a knee (devastating).

I was just throwin that out there. Glad to see so many responses.

I tend to slip toward the out side anyway so I have only caught two knees in my life. but one of them was against a good fighter, and a SOUTH PAW (which probably explains it. i was probably circling to the right when I should have been circling to the left), and man - even at half power the knee felt like it broke my eye bone.

Nothing wrong with throwing in some real life combat scenarios. We would be glad to hear of any concerns that you have with your training. You may benefit from some of our experience and we may benefit from looking at things from a different perspective. In any case, it is a learning experience for all of us.

Funny thing. For now, it just seems to be the three of us in this exchange.

I was told for punching, look to the shoulders to determine if your opponent is about to throw one. Is there a similar method for knee strikes? My experience with kickboxing, especially Muy Thai is limited at this point in my training. Obviously, if the leg is chambered, that could mean a possible kick...key word is possible. But I know that the kicks in Muy Thai don't come from chamber, they just come! If I were to make an educated guess, I would say look to hips or the upper body. Some fighters move their arms before delivering a kick in order to stabilize themselves, which choreographs all their intentions to me.

Knees are much sneakier and they definitely hurt more. Especially near the eye (using your example). Half power or not, I have no doubt about the destructive power that it will inflict. Hurts me just thinking about it. Just getting a little knee tap in a certain sensitive spot...the rest I'm sure you can fill in.

Of course, I've added conjecture in my response. I'm sure someone else can add or improve upon this.

Best Regards to all.

冠木侍
12-23-2007, 09:05 PM
I was searching YouTube the other day (something that I don't usually do) and came across a video of Royce Gracie demonstrating his Brazilian Ju-jutsu against a skeptic Hapkido master. Needless to say, when Gracie took him down and mounted, the fight was over (the guy would not admit defeat and lost a total of three times). It was one of his early demonstrations.

I wish I could provide the link.

I erred. It was Rorion Gracie and here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4&NR=1

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-25-2007, 12:58 AM
Actually, I do focus on the shoulder line when fighting and also watch their stance . Both can provide telegraphing i.e. a switch from a conventional stance to a side horse stance tells me right away to anticipate either a front leg kick or a spinning kick) but you have to move quickly.

The problem with the knee is that it's not thrown from a chamber like other kicks. It comes straight up from the rear or power leg when you are in a clinch. The counter to this is to drop both hands ( he's got both hands on your neck, so it's safe to do this) and block the knee. The problem starts when there are multiple knees thrown; you lose a lot of energy fighting the clinch and blocking at the same time. And, if he's heavier and stronger, he can keep you in that clinch and throw you around quite a bit. Thank god for weight classes in the professional leagues.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-25-2007, 01:05 AM
Punch in "kenpo karate", and you'll see how devastating some of the self defense moves are and, I believe the the Israeli style of fighting is a conglomerate of things stolen from other styles which, they openly admitted on Human Weapon. A lot of it looks like Kenpo to me.

冠木侍
12-25-2007, 04:59 PM
Actually, I do focus on the shoulder line when fighting and also watch their stance . Both can provide telegraphing i.e. a switch from a conventional stance to a side horse stance tells me right away to anticipate either a front leg kick or a spinning kick) but you have to move quickly.

The problem with the knee is that it's not thrown from a chamber like other kicks. It comes straight up from the rear or power leg when you are in a clinch. The counter to this is to drop both hands ( he's got both hands on your neck, so it's safe to do this) and block the knee. The problem starts when there are multiple knees thrown; you lose a lot of energy fighting the clinch and blocking at the same time. And, if he's heavier and stronger, he can keep you in that clinch and throw you around quite a bit. Thank god for weight classes in the professional leagues.

Yeah. Velocity is an important part of the equation.

I understand what you are saying about the knee and it is similar to what I had in mind. But I did not think about being in the clinch for this example. The only time I ever do that is when I am grappling and knees are NOT allowed.

I would have to say...if you could find a way to hinder the your opponent's leg and then deliver your own knees. To what you said, simultaneously fighting the clinch while blocking knees is an aspect that I guess one needs to get used to. I notice that boxers and fighters clinch either when they tired and/or they are trying to go for a take-down. Getting into a clinch with a bigger stronger opponent should be avoided unless you think it will give you the advantage at that moment. It seems as if their strategy is to get you in the clinch, which would be a sure-fire way to get you with knees. In that situation, I would try and step around and go for some kind of trip or take-down by sweeping the back leg. Get in close and the knees should be nullified for a short time till you pull off the move.

On a side note; I agree with weight classes and see why they were put into place. However, personally I enjoy fighting someone who is bigger and stronger than myself. It is one of the very few ways that one can improve more rapidly and become stronger. So then when you fight someone in your own weight class, it will be an easy victory. During my submission grappling days, it was a lot of fun.

I threw out some suggestions based on your scenario. As I said before, I am not so familiar with that type of fighting. Hope that helps.

Happy Holidays.

冠木侍
12-25-2007, 05:03 PM
Punch in "kenpo karate", and you'll see how devastating some of the self defense moves are and, I believe the the Israeli style of fighting is a conglomerate of things stolen from other styles which, they openly admitted on Human Weapon. A lot of it looks like Kenpo to me.

I take it you are a student of Ed Parker's style then?

I've seen some kenpo (I've seen it spelled Kempo) in action. Brutal, fast, destructive...basically "take no prisoners."

I actually missed the Krav Maga episode of Human Weapon. It seems somewhat like a hybrid martial art. I'm waiting for a repeat show. But this week there is the new Fight Quest which comes on at the same time (but on Discovery Channel).

SayocBlade
12-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Actually, I do focus on the shoulder line when fighting and also watch their stance . Both can provide telegraphing i.e. a switch from a conventional stance to a side horse stance tells me right away to anticipate either a front leg kick or a spinning kick) but you have to move quickly.

The problem with the knee is that it's not thrown from a chamber like other kicks. It comes straight up from the rear or power leg when you are in a clinch. The counter to this is to drop both hands ( he's got both hands on your neck, so it's safe to do this) and block the knee. The problem starts when there are multiple knees thrown; you lose a lot of energy fighting the clinch and blocking at the same time. And, if he's heavier and stronger, he can keep you in that clinch and throw you around quite a bit. Thank god for weight classes in the professional leagues.

The knee is very nasty and devestating. You can prevent the other guy from throwing a knee if you are in a clinch by pushing is waist away from you. The knee will never touch you but you're inline for a devestating elbow from the dropped hand holding the waist. Either or, you're screwed when clinched up.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-27-2007, 08:20 PM
I know I am talking with good martial artists when they take the time to discuss things like this without any egotistical slant. Moreover, I just yesterday, when I gave him a belated x-mas gift, talked with my sensei about it and his suggestion was to time the knee and throw a body punch to the ribs on the side that their back leg is. For ex. if his right leg is back, then that is the next knee; and if he is inexperienced, he will throw those multiples in a rhythm that can be timed.
So, if you are capable of thinking in the heat of the moment, you can land that punch and use your weight to push him off balance at the same time. Pushing him off balance toward the front leg will take away his ability to throw the rear leg knee, as well as the front leg knee (which is rarely if never used). Since it is now gonna carry most of the weight trying to keep me from pushing that direction, it will put him on the defensive.

thats confusing. e.x. He's got his hands on the back of your neck with his elbows pointed vertically down controlling ur upper body. His right leg is in the back which will be the next knee thrown. Let him throw it. Block it by dropping your right hand in to a horizontal position. As soon as that leg lands on the ground, throw a left hook to the ribs(his right ribs). Immediately use your body weight to push him toward the ropes or the wall if he doesn't let go. Usually, if u land a solid hook to his ribs he WILL let go.

And, ur right ! It is always better to train with heavier people because then, fighting your own weight class is easier. That's why I talked about bigger stronger opponents, and guys that have the reach on me. When I am faced up with someone my own size it's like a gift from god!

Thanks and Merry X-mas.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-27-2007, 09:31 PM
I take it you are a student of Ed Parker's style then?

I've seen some kenpo (I've seen it spelled Kempo) in action. Brutal, fast, destructive...basically "take no prisoners."

I actually missed the Krav Maga episode of Human Weapon. It seems somewhat like a hybrid martial art. I'm waiting for a repeat show. But this week there is the new Fight Quest which comes on at the same time (but on Discovery Channel).

Yes. I am a direct descendant through my former sensei and the Tracy leg (there are two legs or ways of teaching kenpo that came out of Ed Parker's style) of Parker. Ed Parker was born ( i believe) in Hawaii where, he studied kenpo under William S. Chow - a Chinese American. Parker then modified it specifically for the streets of the U.S. mainland. If you Google ed Parker, you'll see he was quite an important figure in the history of martial arts in America. It's not a long history in America, it supposedly started here when the soldiers who fought against the Japanese in WW2 returned from war.

The difference in spelling between Kenpo or KeMpo - well it depends who you ask, some will say ignorantly that Kempo is Chinese and Kenpo is Japanese. One of my closest friends who got his BB with me, and is Asian American (Chinese) told me that it was a simple misunderstanding and that they both mean the same thing. Like many words in Asian languages you can have one word mean 2 to 3 different things. i.e. Ous ! Japanese for hello, goodbye, and I understand.

However, the three books by ed parker that I was required to read spelled it Kenpo, and the Encyclopedia of Martial Arts, uses the spelling Kempo until they get to ed Parker in which they then use the spelling Kenpo. But, they don't address the issue, they just switch spellings.

And, it is a "take no prisoner" brutal style that I don't want my sons to know yet which is why my 4 yr. old is in TSMMA. I figure, if he can take a kid down and hold him in a submission, the school can't say he should be suspended, and on the street he won't get arrested. When I feel he is old enough to understand the brutality of kenpo, I will teach it to him myself. Hopefully he'll reach a point when he knows he can be charged with excessive force, and, when he can't. My opinion- If you r a BB - "less is more". A 10-cent lawyer will argue " if you have a BB, then why couldn't you do less damage in defending yourself? The law sucks today and I don't want him knocked off his course for a good life simply because a slip and fall lawyer convinced a stupid jury that he committed a crime in defending himself.

Hell, if a guy breaks in to your house today u can't just shoot him like when I was a kid. If he has no gun, and you shoot him -at least in NY, each state is different, you could be charged with Manslaughter! How f-d up is that?

doug maverick
12-27-2007, 10:15 PM
actually inew york you can shoot him. but there are guide lines you have to anounce to the guy your their and that you have a gun. if he still moves or goes toward you you can then shoot him as a legal act of self defense.

冠木侍
12-27-2007, 11:26 PM
actually inew york you can shoot him. but there are guide lines you have to anounce to the guy your their and that you have a gun. if he still moves or goes toward you you can then shoot him as a legal act of self defense.

I've heard of something like that. A bit comical. As martial artists, it is a good idea to know what the boundaries are in self-defense (constraints that the law puts upon us). Of course, respective to where we live. Then again, if you like to travel, you've got quite a bit of homework to do :cool:

冠木侍
12-27-2007, 11:38 PM
Interesting scenario you put forth. It was a good idea to talk to your Sensei for experience is a great way to gain an advantage.

You had suggested that if the fighter was inexperienced, they will use the rear (power leg) for a well-timed knee strike. Furthermore, understanding their timing is important just in case they throw multiples. This makes a lot of sense. Those who know what they are doing will use their "quick" leg and that creates an interesting scenario as well....

As you described it, I was able to picture everything from the rear knee attack to the block and all the way to the rib strike. Seems like a very effective counter. But quickness and anticipation seem like important factors.

**I've come across people in forums who study "hard" styles of martial arts. Their attitudes are just juvenile (there are better terms but I am just throwing in one euphemism...fill in the blank with whatever you like). Kind of turned me off to the martial arts at first. Glad that there are some serious grown-ups (and I welcome precocious children and teens) who can discuss martial arts without being overly competitive.

冠木侍
12-28-2007, 12:00 AM
Yes. I am a direct descendant through my former sensei and the Tracy leg (there are two legs or ways of teaching kenpo that came out of Ed Parker's style) of Parker. Ed Parker was born ( i believe) in Hawaii where, he studied kenpo under William S. Chow - a Chinese American. Parker then modified it specifically for the streets of the U.S. mainland. If you Google ed Parker, you'll see he was quite an important figure in the history of martial arts in America. It's not a long history in America, it supposedly started here when the soldiers who fought against the Japanese in WW2 returned from war.

The difference in spelling between Kenpo or KeMpo - well it depends who you ask, some will say ignorantly that Kempo is Chinese and Kenpo is Japanese. One of my closest friends who got his BB with me, and is Asian American (Chinese) told me that it was a simple misunderstanding and that they both mean the same thing. Like many words in Asian languages you can have one word mean 2 to 3 different things. i.e. Ous ! Japanese for hello, goodbye, and I understand.

However, the three books by ed parker that I was required to read spelled it Kenpo, and the Encyclopedia of Martial Arts, uses the spelling Kempo until they get to ed Parker in which they then use the spelling Kenpo. But, they don't address the issue, they just switch spellings.

And, it is a "take no prisoner" brutal style that I don't want my sons to know yet which is why my 4 yr. old is in TSMMA. I figure, if he can take a kid down and hold him in a submission, the school can't say he should be suspended, and on the street he won't get arrested. When I feel he is old enough to understand the brutality of kenpo, I will teach it to him myself. Hopefully he'll reach a point when he knows he can be charged with excessive force, and, when he can't. My opinion- If you r a BB - "less is more". A 10-cent lawyer will argue " if you have a BB, then why couldn't you do less damage in defending yourself? The law sucks today and I don't want him knocked off his course for a good life simply because a slip and fall lawyer convinced a stupid jury that he committed a crime in defending himself.

Hell, if a guy breaks in to your house today u can't just shoot him like when I was a kid. If he has no gun, and you shoot him -at least in NY, each state is different, you could be charged with Manslaughter! How f-d up is that?

The thing about Kenpo and Kempo is probably a phonetic issue. In my Japanese studies, if you were to to write the word using hiragana, the "N" would be used. The English translation seems to use both the "N" and "M." I had read something one day where a dude tried to explain why it was spelled differently.

I've heard of Tracy. Isn't he also involved with the Kung Fu aspect of kempo?...a martial art called Wun Hop Ken, which the Dacascos are famous for. The Hawaii story I've heard of, although I didn't know Parker was born there as well. Chow is a name I have heard and also Mitose.

I guess the reason I seem to spell it with the "M" is because I am familiar with another famous person from Hawaii; Adriano Emperado. I'm sure you are very familiar with him if you are with Parker. One of the five founding members of a system called "Kajukenbo." One of its nicknames is the "Art of Dirty Street Fighting." He spends a lot of time in wheelchair now and I was fortunate enough to meet him (well actually see him from a distance). Anyways I was told all kempo...kenpo originated from the same place and it is a relatively young martial art. It's ability to evolve and change with the times is something that it's students and instructors seem to like about it. Goes hand in hand with Bruce Lee's philosophies about martial arts.

"The usefulness of the cup is it's emptiness."

I respect what you are doing for your son. It is not uncommon for four or five year olds to start training in that style (or any other). TSK(MMA) is a good jumping off point. Plus, they train some good fighters as well. A street fight is a whole different game and you will be able to decide when he is ready for that. As martial artists, I think sometimes that we are burdened with a heavy responsibility because of our knowledge and abilities. The younger generation leaves much to be desired. To put such a responsibility in their hands...it would have to be on a case by case basis. Just one opinion.

Sorry, but I will address the self-defense issue another time. There was an article in Black Belt magazine a couple of issues ago.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-28-2007, 10:04 PM
you're exactly right! The difference is nothing more than a phonetic issue. That's what I said my friend (who is Chinese American and a BB in kenpo as well) claimed it was but, i was not as articulate as you were.
Thanks for clarifying what I believe is the difference between the spellings.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-28-2007, 11:27 PM
The thing about Kenpo and Kempo is probably a phonetic issue. In my Japanese studies, if you were to to write the word using hiragana, the "N" would be used. The English translation seems to use both the "N" and "M." I had read something one day where a dude tried to explain why it was spelled differently.

I've heard of Tracy. Isn't he also involved with the Kung Fu aspect of kempo?...a martial art called Wun Hop Ken, which the Dacascos are famous for. The Hawaii story I've heard of, although I didn't know Parker was born there as well. Chow is a name I have heard and also Mitose.

I guess the reason I seem to spell it with the "M" is because I am familiar with another famous person from Hawaii; Adriano Emperado. I'm sure you are very familiar with him if you are with Parker. One of the five founding members of a system called "Kajukenbo." One of its nicknames is the "Art of Dirty Street Fighting." He spends a lot of time in wheelchair now and I was fortunate enough to meet him (well actually see him from a distance). Anyways I was told all kempo...kenpo originated from the same place and it is a relatively young martial art. It's ability to evolve and change with the times is something that it's students and instructors seem to like about it. Goes hand in hand with Bruce Lee's philosophies about martial arts.

"The usefulness of the cup is it's emptiness."

I respect what you are doing for your son. It is not uncommon for four or five year olds to start training in that style (or any other). TSK(MMA) is a good jumping off point. Plus, they train some good fighters as well. A street fight is a whole different game and you will be able to decide when he is ready for that. As martial artists, I think sometimes that we are burdened with a heavy responsibility because of our knowledge and abilities. The younger generation leaves much to be desired. To put such a responsibility in their hands...it would have to be on a case by case basis. Just one opinion.

Sorry, but I will address the self-defense issue another time. There was an article in Black Belt magazine a couple of issues ago.



Kajukenbo
Intro:
An eclectic martial art that is a blend of Karate, Judo, Kenpo, and Boxing, from which it takes its name.

The man credited with the founding of Kajukenbo is Siju Adriano D. Emperado who practiced Kenpo and Escrima. It was decided that Kenpo would be the scafolding around which Kajukenbo was built. The arts drawn upon to found Kajukenbo are Karate, Judo, Ju-jitsu, Kempo, and Chu'an Fa Gung Fu (Chinese boxing); hence the name Ka-ju-ken-bo.

Modern martial art history is much easier to follow. During the l8th century, China and Japan were engaged in trade both material and cultural. At that time a senior member of the Mitose clan of Japan traveled to China to study the martial arts at the Shaolin Temple where he remained for many years. Upon his return to Japan he introduced the art of Chu'an Fa which he called Kempo (Japanese for "Way of the Fist"). This was later developed into a system for healing, health, and fighting called Kosho-Ryu Kempo. The Okinawans had always termed the Martial Arts as "Te" which literally means hand. During this period (1609-1903) "Karate" meaning "Hands of China" replaced the word "Te" (during the latter part of the 19th century) until the Chinese character which denoted "Hands of China" or "China Hand" (the latter being more correct) was changed by the Japanese to their character which meant "empty hand". This change (officially dated to 1923) angered many of the Okinawan masters who were proud of the term designating their fighting style. They also did not wish to dispense with their loyalty and association with China. However, there was great pressure by the Japanese and the masters very reluctantly accepted the new character change. The change was spearheaded by a student of Chogun Miyagi named Nagashi Hanage of the Goju-ryu style of karate. It was actually Chogun Miyagi himself who desired to make the change and compelled his disciple Nagashi Hanage to pursue the change with great vigor. While the change may have brought a deeper meaning according to Chogun Myagi, in which spiritual overcomes the physical, it is yet another example of how the Japanese managed to make many think that the Art was theirs and not the Chinese from whom it descended. The Bonsai tree is also an example because the Bonsai tree was propagated in China long before anyone ever heard of it from Japan.

This art was practiced and passed down in the Mitose line until James Mitose, who lived in Hawaii in 1940, began teaching publicly. One of his students, William Chow, who also extensively studied Chinese martial arts from his own family, took over teaching the classes. William Chow taught a young Hawaiian named Edmund Parker who eventually developed Kenpo into the art we know and practice today.


Here's the very brief scoop:
What is Kenpo?

Ed Parker Sr., founder of American Kenpo, in his Encyclopedia of Kenpo, says: Kenpo is "a modern term describing one of the more innovative systems of the Martial Arts which originally started in Hawaii, is heavily practiced in the Americas, and has now spread worldwide. KEN means fist and PO means law." The term stems from the Chinese "Kempo" which refers to all migrating Chinese Martial Arts outside of China. Mr. Parker brought Kenpo to the mainland from Hawaii and made "numerous contributions of innovative concepts and principles." Kenpo is a system of self defense based on logic and the scientific study of movement. By studying motion in all its nuances, Kenpo provides both maximum efficiency (no wasted time, movements, or energy) and maximum effectiveness (speed, power, focus). It offers "explosive action with minimum target exposure. It employs linear as well as circular moves, utilizing intermittent power when and where needed, interspersed with minor and major moves that flow with continuity. It is flexible in thought and action so as to blend with encounters as they occur."

Hope I didn't add too much. but I was asked about Mitose, and if Ed Parker was a native of Hawaii.

Al and Jim Tracy where original students of Ed Parker back in the 60's and 70's. The brothers cut their association with Parker in order to pursue their own system. From what I know, they thought that Ed Parker's innovations and alterations where pulling the art too far from it's original Chinese roots and that it was becoming something other then Kenpo. Claims are that Parker Kenpo is only a small percentage of what Original Chinese Kenpo is. What is the difference you ask? What is the big conspiracy? Which system is better? In my opinion there is no real difference between the systems in terms of technique or principles. Studying at a school that hybrids Tracy Kenpo, The Joe Lewis Karate System, Parker Kenpo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and even Judo, I've seen some of the similarities and differences.

My former Sensei received his 6th degree from Joe Lewis, and i have been to 2 clinics of his in which he came in to our dojo. He looked fierce. Not somebody I would want to fight. So I guess i am from the Tracy's and the Joe Lewis philosophies as well as the Parker stem. The patch we wore was of the Parker Kenpo.

SayocBlade
12-29-2007, 02:40 PM
I don't care who it is or what law determines if you goto jail or not. Someone breaks into your home and you're in there with that perp, I'm killing him or maiming him till he yells UNCLE. That person has INTENT to violate your personal property and wanting to help himself to everything you own. No way. That guy or guys will not be walking out of my house without a knife in their stomach, a piece missing from their body from my machete or busted bones. Forget the law. My family is more important that the law. Think about it. If you see these perps by your son's room and they are in it, then what? OH YEAH, THE LAW SAY THIS.... nope, you won't think twice about it. They are dead meat....

In our Atienza Kali (AK) forums, I met a friend who I train with had a scary situation. He was in his house when 2 guys just showed up in his living room!!!! HOLY CRAP! YOu have to be kidding me. Somehow they got into the house. He ran towards them screaming and tney took off. Now when he answers the front door, he goes upstairs, opens the window and asks who it is. Yes, ghetto as it sounds, but as long as the door is still locked, the threat for a push-in robbery would be slim.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-30-2007, 11:29 AM
Obviously, it depends on the situation. However, I wasn't talking about a response with a knife. I said If you take out a SHOT GUN and kill an unarmed burgler, you ARE going to face charges, at least in NY. And it's because I of my two sons that I would not be so fast to pull out a gun because they need me home to raise them, not to see me once a week in an orange suit (not my favorite color), in jail.

If they are just crack heads, I would probably just pull out my Escrima stick and go nuts on them. But Then again I don't know what the hell I would do because it has never happened! Nobody knows until it happens! We can sit here and talk all we want, but until it happens, who knows?

Maybe I should just get my house set up with an alarm system and all the bells and whistles that go with it. That would probably be enough. I live in a very safe neighborhood and have good neighbors that WOULD do something to help me if I needed it.

Tried by 12 rather than carried by six? Tried by twelve without ending up in iron bracelets is my best scenario.
Happy New Year

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-30-2007, 11:41 AM
Happy new year.

Don't fight when you're drunk, I did that once and made an ass of myself. (that was about 22 years ago in a college bar).

K,T,A,TSKMMA

:)

KenpoTkdAckTSK
12-30-2007, 04:57 PM
Don't kill anyone this new years. Leave your blades home and have fun.
Take care,
TSKMMA

SayocBlade
12-30-2007, 08:08 PM
Obviously, it depends on the situation. However, I wasn't talking about a response with a knife. I said If you take out a SHOT GUN and kill an unarmed burgler, you ARE going to face charges, at least in NY. And it's because I of my two sons that I would not be so fast to pull out a gun because they need me home to raise them, not to see me once a week in an orange suit (not my favorite color), in jail.

If they are just crack heads, I would probably just pull out my Escrima stick and go nuts on them. But Then again I don't know what the hell I would do because it has never happened! Nobody knows until it happens! We can sit here and talk all we want, but until it happens, who knows?

Maybe I should just get my house set up with an alarm system and all the bells and whistles that go with it. That would probably be enough. I live in a very safe neighborhood and have good neighbors that WOULD do something to help me if I needed it.

Tried by 12 rather than carried by six? Tried by twelve without ending up in iron bracelets is my best scenario.
Happy New Year

My friend,
I'm not referring to knives or guns or whatever. The situation you have placed here is determining WHAT to do when someone is in YOUR home. I understand the fact that you want your sons to grow up seeing dad but god forbid something happens to them when a burglar comes in?!

One scenario, they come in demanding money and one of your sons just happens to come by not knowing whats going on. One of the burglars takes you son hostage and puts a weapon to his head. Now what? From the time they came in to grabbing your kid, total time that has elapsed was 25 seonds. What would you have done before your kid came out his room wondering what was going on?

This is all hypothetical and just to raise some thoughts. Keep the brain going. Ya know?!?

btw, I see that you live on Long Island. Even if you live in nice neighborhoods, don't let that fool you. There was a gang of thugs going around NICE neighborhoods and robbing them. Do a seach on Newsday and find out about these stories. Makes you think twice huh?

Check this out (gotta go through the advertisement first):

http://video.ap.org/v/default.aspx?g=a22b5e6a-e188-4ba0-a567-653c878a9224&f=1123225&fg=email

Here's more food for thought copied from the Atienza Kali forums:

In one of the local papers today, I ran across this story.

-Two men reportedly pistol-whipped Michael Messina in his apartment at 214 Douglas street. Messina said he and his wife Anna heard a knock on the door a little after 2 a.m. When he answerd the door two men wearing ski mask and brandishing guns forced their wa inside and demanded money.
After Nessuba saud ge didn't have any money, one of the two robbers struck him in the head, causing him to fall to the floor. The other robber than hit him the back of the head with a handgun before leaving empty handed.-

The story does leave 2 very important questions unanswered.

1. Why did the man open the door at 2am?
2. Why was his house targeted specificly?

The question above are ones that are being handled by the investigators but the point of this post is that people feel the safest in their homes and in their cars. Most people can't imagine someone getting into either to do violence against them or their family.

I talk to many people about being prepared for anything that could happen and when I bring up the home, most people brush it off with the usual comment of "That won't happen here" but those are the thoughts and mindset that keep you from being prepared.

Some of the key points I bring up are:
-Do you have practice sessions with your family if there is a intruder in your house?
-Do you have weapons in close proximity to where you sleep?
-What are the various escape points from you home? back doors, windows, basement hatches
-What are the meeting places for your family to go to if you get separated.
-Do your children know what to do if they think someone is in the house?
-Do you have a go bag with supplies in case you need to leave your house in a hurry?

This is just the tip of the ice berg but I would like to know what other things people do to keep themselves safe as they live their lives.

SayocBlade
12-30-2007, 08:09 PM
Don't kill anyone this new years. Leave your blades home and have fun.
Take care,
TSKMMA

I'm a Sayoc/Atienza guy. If not a knife, then a nice sharp pen. Is that better?! :)

Happy New Year TSKMMA.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE

SayocBlade
12-30-2007, 08:13 PM
Obviously, it depends on the situation.

But Then again I don't know what the hell I would do because it has never happened! Nobody knows until it happens! We can sit here and talk all we want, but until it happens, who knows?


Sorry man. You just answered my post and thoughts. :)

冠木侍
01-03-2008, 04:12 PM
To all here and new friends, i hope that everyone enjoyed their holiday and started out the new year on the correct foot. Later all.

冠木侍
01-03-2008, 04:26 PM
Kajukenbo
Intro:
An eclectic martial art that is a blend of Karate, Judo, Kenpo, and Boxing, from which it takes its name.

The man credited with the founding of Kajukenbo is Siju Adriano D. Emperado who practiced Kenpo and Escrima. It was decided that Kenpo would be the scafolding around which Kajukenbo was built. The arts drawn upon to found Kajukenbo are Karate, Judo, Ju-jitsu, Kempo, and Chu'an Fa Gung Fu (Chinese boxing); hence the name Ka-ju-ken-bo.

Modern martial art history is much easier to follow. During the l8th century, China and Japan were engaged in trade both material and cultural. At that time a senior member of the Mitose clan of Japan traveled to China to study the martial arts at the Shaolin Temple where he remained for many years. Upon his return to Japan he introduced the art of Chu'an Fa which he called Kempo (Japanese for "Way of the Fist"). This was later developed into a system for healing, health, and fighting called Kosho-Ryu Kempo. The Okinawans had always termed the Martial Arts as "Te" which literally means hand. During this period (1609-1903) "Karate" meaning "Hands of China" replaced the word "Te" (during the latter part of the 19th century) until the Chinese character which denoted "Hands of China" or "China Hand" (the latter being more correct) was changed by the Japanese to their character which meant "empty hand". This change (officially dated to 1923) angered many of the Okinawan masters who were proud of the term designating their fighting style. They also did not wish to dispense with their loyalty and association with China. However, there was great pressure by the Japanese and the masters very reluctantly accepted the new character change. The change was spearheaded by a student of Chogun Miyagi named Nagashi Hanage of the Goju-ryu style of karate. It was actually Chogun Miyagi himself who desired to make the change and compelled his disciple Nagashi Hanage to pursue the change with great vigor. While the change may have brought a deeper meaning according to Chogun Myagi, in which spiritual overcomes the physical, it is yet another example of how the Japanese managed to make many think that the Art was theirs and not the Chinese from whom it descended. The Bonsai tree is also an example because the Bonsai tree was propagated in China long before anyone ever heard of it from Japan.

This art was practiced and passed down in the Mitose line until James Mitose, who lived in Hawaii in 1940, began teaching publicly. One of his students, William Chow, who also extensively studied Chinese martial arts from his own family, took over teaching the classes. William Chow taught a young Hawaiian named Edmund Parker who eventually developed Kenpo into the art we know and practice today.


Here's the very brief scoop:
What is Kenpo?

Ed Parker Sr., founder of American Kenpo, in his Encyclopedia of Kenpo, says: Kenpo is "a modern term describing one of the more innovative systems of the Martial Arts which originally started in Hawaii, is heavily practiced in the Americas, and has now spread worldwide. KEN means fist and PO means law." The term stems from the Chinese "Kempo" which refers to all migrating Chinese Martial Arts outside of China. Mr. Parker brought Kenpo to the mainland from Hawaii and made "numerous contributions of innovative concepts and principles." Kenpo is a system of self defense based on logic and the scientific study of movement. By studying motion in all its nuances, Kenpo provides both maximum efficiency (no wasted time, movements, or energy) and maximum effectiveness (speed, power, focus). It offers "explosive action with minimum target exposure. It employs linear as well as circular moves, utilizing intermittent power when and where needed, interspersed with minor and major moves that flow with continuity. It is flexible in thought and action so as to blend with encounters as they occur."

Hope I didn't add too much. but I was asked about Mitose, and if Ed Parker was a native of Hawaii.

Al and Jim Tracy where original students of Ed Parker back in the 60's and 70's. The brothers cut their association with Parker in order to pursue their own system. From what I know, they thought that Ed Parker's innovations and alterations where pulling the art too far from it's original Chinese roots and that it was becoming something other then Kenpo. Claims are that Parker Kenpo is only a small percentage of what Original Chinese Kenpo is. What is the difference you ask? What is the big conspiracy? Which system is better? In my opinion there is no real difference between the systems in terms of technique or principles. Studying at a school that hybrids Tracy Kenpo, The Joe Lewis Karate System, Parker Kenpo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and even Judo, I've seen some of the similarities and differences.

My former Sensei received his 6th degree from Joe Lewis, and i have been to 2 clinics of his in which he came in to our dojo. He looked fierce. Not somebody I would want to fight. So I guess i am from the Tracy's and the Joe Lewis philosophies as well as the Parker stem. The patch we wore was of the Parker Kenpo.

I appreciate you taking the time for that description. Seems that you know quite a bit about the subject. Good stuff. It never fails to interest me every time this topic is brought up. I'm not exactly a stranger to kajukenbo myself (Emperado's method)...;)The info about Parker was some new info. I've heard of him but never really looked into anything about him.

Thank you for doing the homework. Kem(n)po is still a relatively young martial art but i think that with good students and teachers (just as any other art), it will have lasting power.

What is a better system is probably relative. It works, so it is good. I am told that even the Chinese forms in kajukenbo are very much "watered down." Taking what is only necessary, borrowing from Bruce Lee's philosophies about "economy of motion," there is somewhat of a shared history with ken(m)po.

Thanks again. Take care.

冠木侍
01-03-2008, 04:34 PM
you're exactly right! The difference is nothing more than a phonetic issue. That's what I said my friend (who is Chinese American and a BB in kenpo as well) claimed it was but, i was not as articulate as you were.
Thanks for clarifying what I believe is the difference between the spellings.

I understood what you were saying before. It was just a way to explain the differences in pronunciation that I was conveying. I tried to put forth my best educated guess. This topic may pop up again...different people have different opinions on the issue.

GLad I was able to help clarify.

Take Care.

SayocBlade
01-06-2008, 08:27 PM
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=8ab879d0-dbc6-4f53-bccf-8422c0cdd52f&k=21556

冠木侍
01-06-2008, 09:54 PM
Very relevant to what was brought up earlier...

I know not about the laws regarding self-defense in that state. For all we know, the relatives of the slain intruder could turn around and sue the farmer. He should get a good lawyer.

This still requires more research...As martial artists, we should be aware of the laws that pertain to us for we will not be looked upon as innocent at first. It seems that the burden of proof will fall on us to show what justified any amount of force that we use in a self defense situation.

Thanks for the article.
Welcome back and Happy new year.

doug maverick
01-07-2008, 12:16 AM
I've heard of something like that. A bit comical. As martial artists, it is a good idea to know what the boundaries are in self-defense (constraints that the law puts upon us). Of course, respective to where we live. Then again, if you like to travel, you've got quite a bit of homework to do :cool:

hey i've trained for a pretty long time(nearly all my life) and sometimes hands ain;t gonna cut it. you got people out who really know what there doing, i had a friend who lost a finger trying to defend against this guy with a knife and he grab the guys risk but the guy was holding the knife in reverse(which i always thought wat stupid but hey normal people don't hold knives like that and in the street you not gonna look to see if he's holding the knife inside or outside) and he just pulled back and yank finger came right off(it was sowed back on but i'm told it was a bloody mess).

SayocBlade
01-07-2008, 08:27 PM
hey i've trained for a pretty long time(nearly all my life) and sometimes hands ain;t gonna cut it. you got people out who really know what there doing, i had a friend who lost a finger trying to defend against this guy with a knife and he grab the guys risk but the guy was holding the knife in reverse(which i always thought wat stupid but hey normal people don't hold knives like that and in the street you not gonna look to see if he's holding the knife inside or outside) and he just pulled back and yank finger came right off(it was sowed back on but i'm told it was a bloody mess).

you are so right Doug. Thats why I trained in knife fighting. I know my kickboxing will always be there for hand to hand, but you never know if someone will draw a weapon on you.

Reverse grip on a knife is just as deadly as foward grip. Although its harder to thrust the knife into the person a lot can be done with the reverse grip. Thank god your friend is ok.

冠木侍
01-07-2008, 08:35 PM
hey i've trained for a pretty long time(nearly all my life) and sometimes hands ain;t gonna cut it. you got people out who really know what there doing, i had a friend who lost a finger trying to defend against this guy with a knife and he grab the guys risk but the guy was holding the knife in reverse(which i always thought wat stupid but hey normal people don't hold knives like that and in the street you not gonna look to see if he's holding the knife inside or outside) and he just pulled back and yank finger came right off(it was sowed back on but i'm told it was a bloody mess).

Word?

It was unfortunate that had happened to your friend.

If you shoot, the burden will be on you to prove that it was indeed self-defense and that you gave a fair warning. That was what I was driving at with my statement. If possible, we need to be careful. However, if loved ones are involved or it comes down to your life or the other guy, you know what you have to do.

I definitely agree that sometimes bare hands won't get the job done. In the street, there is no such thing as a fair fight. But our training usually starts out with empty-hand type combat, so that will seemingly be a first resort. But if you find something that can help you out, then by all means, it should be utilized.

If in that situation, I'm sure I'll know what to do. Ultimately, I believe that it will depend on the circumstances and who happens to be there with me.

BTW Doug. This is a bit off topic but it says you joined the forum in 1969 but then you would have to be older than what you state in your profile. AM I missing something bro, or is just a typo on the part of the forum? Just wondering cuz there are quite a few of you who had joined in the same year.

doug maverick
01-08-2008, 08:21 AM
Word?

It was unfortunate that had happened to your friend.

If you shoot, the burden will be on you to prove that it was indeed self-defense and that you gave a fair warning. That was what I was driving at with my statement. If possible, we need to be careful. However, if loved ones are involved or it comes down to your life or the other guy, you know what you have to do.

I definitely agree that sometimes bare hands won't get the job done. In the street, there is no such thing as a fair fight. But our training usually starts out with empty-hand type combat, so that will seemingly be a first resort. But if you find something that can help you out, then by all means, it should be utilized.

If in that situation, I'm sure I'll know what to do. Ultimately, I believe that it will depend on the circumstances and who happens to be there with me.

BTW Doug. This is a bit off topic but it says you joined the forum in 1969 but then you would have to be older than what you state in your profile. AM I missing something bro, or is just a typo on the part of the forum? Just wondering cuz there are quite a few of you who had joined in the same year.


there wasn't even an internet in 1969 and computers were the size of a giant as room as you know. people who say 1969 in there join date have been here since before 2000. i've been here since 98-99. after 9-11 the person who use to own this site kung fu online. aperantly flipped out and i guess either sold or gave the forum to kfm. don't know if thats true or not but thats what i was told.

冠木侍
01-08-2008, 06:25 PM
there wasn't even an internet in 1969 and computers were the size of a giant as room as you know. people who say 1969 in there join date have been here since before 2000. i've been here since 98-99. after 9-11 the person who use to own this site kung fu online. aperantly flipped out and i guess either sold or gave the forum to kfm. don't know if thats true or not but thats what i was told.

Thank you for that brief history of the site.

I was only inquiring as to the significance of your join date. Being new here, it was a fair question. Already knowing about the history of computers and Internet, I thought that the significance of that date was that you(and others with said year) might have been a long time veteran that was part of the organization (non-employee obviously).

I'm sure you can understand where I was coming from.

doug maverick
01-08-2008, 11:14 PM
Thank you for that brief history of the site.

I was only inquiring as to the significance of your join date. Being new here, it was a fair question. Already knowing about the history of computers and Internet, I thought that the significance of that date was that you(and others with said year) might have been a long time veteran that was part of the organization (non-employee obviously).

I'm sure you can understand where I was coming from.

i was joking about the computer thing you know that right? yeah well alot of new people don't know to much about the site when they come here so yea i just said it, how acurate it is with some of the info like why it changed hands is again beyond me and just hear say. as to why all the veterans have 1968 as their join date you have to ask gene or one of the other mods. about that cause honestly i have no idea maybe it was a weird attempt at humor or something.

冠木侍
01-10-2008, 01:55 AM
I'll have to get used to your sense of humor man. But it's all good.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
01-13-2008, 07:17 PM
Let's watch how this turns out.




Very relevant to what was brought up earlier...

I know not about the laws regarding self-defense in that state. For all we know, the relatives of the slain intruder could turn around and sue the farmer. He should get a good lawyer.

This still requires more research...As martial artists, we should be aware of the laws that pertain to us for we will not be looked upon as innocent at first. It seems that the burden of proof will fall on us to show what justified any amount of force that we use in a self defense situation.

Thanks for the article.
Welcome back and Happy new year.

SayocBlade
01-14-2008, 07:13 PM
Check it out. This guy is awesome. Although he was stabbed 9 times and had his OWN knife he took 3 guys out..killing one and wounding 2 others.. The other took off. What they didn't say was that the martial artist (transit worker) had a knife.

http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=A5B1CE470B7D6E46CEC64936CCE6C41F ?contentId=5461171&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

watch the news story.....

martialartspeon
01-14-2008, 11:17 PM
I have heard really good things about it from multiple friends. Especially for the youngins.

martialartspeon
01-14-2008, 11:28 PM
Check it out. This guy is awesome. Although he was stabbed 9 times and had his OWN knife he took 3 guys out..killing one and wounding 2 others.. The other took off. What they didn't say was that the martial artist (transit worker) had a knife.

http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=A5B1CE470B7D6E46CEC64936CCE6C41F ?contentId=5461171&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

watch the news story.....


Man that sucks that he was put in that situation. That dude calling the attack innocent! Oh man that ****es me off.

冠木侍
01-15-2008, 12:13 PM
Check it out. This guy is awesome. Although he was stabbed 9 times and had his OWN knife he took 3 guys out..killing one and wounding 2 others.. The other took off. What they didn't say was that the martial artist (transit worker) had a knife.

http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=A5B1CE470B7D6E46CEC64936CCE6C41F ?contentId=5461171&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

watch the news story.....


Did he use his own knife?

Anyways, self-defense all the way. I hope that they don't waste tax dollars by trying to put this guy in prison.

To even attempt to convict the transit worker of a crime would be a travesty. I believe that he was fighting to save his own life.

SayocBlade
01-15-2008, 07:22 PM
Did he use his own knife?

Anyways, self-defense all the way. I hope that they don't waste tax dollars by trying to put this guy in prison.

To even attempt to convict the transit worker of a crime would be a travesty. I believe that he was fighting to save his own life.

Yes he was. He had his own knife and the fools tried to take his life/money from him. Innocent bystandard killed trying to help out the ma/transit worker? Bull****. If you saw a fight, I highly doubt that you would help. Not in today's society. That guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

冠木侍
01-15-2008, 08:54 PM
Yes he was. He had his own knife and the fools tried to take his life/money from him. Innocent bystandard killed trying to help out the ma/transit worker? Bull****. If you saw a fight, I highly doubt that you would help. Not in today's society. That guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thank you for supplying the link to the video.

So that's the angle they are trying to play? Their are trying to make the dead guy out to be a good samaritan? Absurd.

Well, if we saw something like that, it might be a different story. It would be difficult to watch an injustice occur. When push comes to shove...who knows what we will do. But in any case, the transit worker was well-prepared for this scenario. His training video was intense, to say the least.

Today's society...hit someone with a two ton machine and then drive away like it never happened.

KenpoTkdAckTSK
01-18-2008, 10:15 PM
Check it out. This guy is awesome. Although he was stabbed 9 times and had his OWN knife he took 3 guys out..killing one and wounding 2 others.. The other took off. What they didn't say was that the martial artist (transit worker) had a knife.

http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=A5B1CE470B7D6E46CEC64936CCE6C41F ?contentId=5461171&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

watch the news story.....

I didn't see any knives in the MA's hands while training for his 3rd degree. But he looks awesome, and if this goes the way the cops call it-self defense, then I applaud him. Even if he gets charged with anything, I still applaud him. It would be great for all of us if it goes the MA's way, don't u think?

冠木侍
01-19-2008, 04:27 PM
I didn't see any knives in the MA's hands while training for his 3rd degree. But he looks awesome, and if this goes the way the cops call it-self defense, then I applaud him. Even if he gets charged with anything, I still applaud him. It would be great for all of us if it goes the MA's way, don't u think?

In a perfect world that would be the case. I honestly wouldn't be able to say how things are going to turn out. People have a way of obscuring the real issues nowadays. We can only wish this dude luck.

BTW...Non stop breakfalls...hurt me just looking at it. It was only a portion of the test used for the news story. I'm sure there were weapons during the test. I wonder if that test video is posted on youtube....?

SayocBlade
01-20-2008, 08:15 PM
I went to an Atienza Kali knife seminar and found out that one of the people in the group actually knows this guy first hand!! Here's the real truth:

1. The transit worker was stabbed 4 times.
2. the transit worker had very very limited knowledge of knife work, just a bit, but I think that saved his life.
3. The so called 'innocent' thug, well, in the heat of the moment, he just went at anyone that was on top of him. He was in SURVIVAL mode to get these attackers off of him, defend himself, kill them and get out If there were other people that jumped in, they would have been dead also.

There was no knife training in his black belt test, his 3rd degree actually. He probably learned some drills or defensive moves..which was with him when this happened. He won't get charged for the killing unless Al Sharpton makes a stink

冠木侍
01-20-2008, 08:28 PM
I went to an Atienza Kali knife seminar and found out that one of the people in the group actually knows this guy first hand!! Here's the real truth:

1. The transit worker was stabbed 4 times.
2. the transit worker had very very limited knowledge of knife work, just a bit, but I think that saved his life.
3. The so called 'innocent' thug, well, in the heat of the moment, he just went at anyone that was on top of him. He was in SURVIVAL mode to get these attackers off of him, defend himself, kill them and get out If there were other people that jumped in, they would have been dead also.

There was no knife training in his black belt test, his 3rd degree actually. He probably learned some drills or defensive moves..which was with him when this happened. He won't get charged for the killing unless Al Sharpton makes a stink

What a small world we live in! Yo, what are the odds?!

It is nice to know a little more detail about what had happened.

The third statement has me a little confused. I'm not sure who you are referring to...it sounds like the transit worker but you refer to him as ""so-called 'innocent' thug?" I'm sorry but that threw me off.

Mr. Sharpton is very infamous in the way of influencing policy and seems to garner support for whatever cause he happens to fighting for.

*He has done great things and I tried not to come across very negative. But it was in response to your last posted statement. :cool:

冠木侍
01-20-2008, 08:38 PM
We've been in dialog for some time now and you seem like good people who have trained extensively.

My question is;

For those of you who train in more than one style of combat or martial art, how were you able to find the yin and yang in regards to time, financial and family responsibilities, school and work? Of course, discuss the parts that only apply to your situation as I threw in a lot of plausible and real variables. If I inadvertently left any out, feel free to add anything from your own experiences.

Your input is appreciated.

SayocBlade
01-27-2008, 09:13 PM
What a small world we live in! Yo, what are the odds?!

It is nice to know a little more detail about what had happened.

The third statement has me a little confused. I'm not sure who you are referring to...it sounds like the transit worker but you refer to him as ""so-called 'innocent' thug?" I'm sorry but that threw me off.

Mr. Sharpton is very infamous in the way of influencing policy and seems to garner support for whatever cause he happens to fighting for.

*He has done great things and I tried not to come across very negative. But it was in response to your last posted statement. :cool:

Sorry, the innocent thug was the one who was supposed to help out but got killed.

冠木侍
02-01-2008, 09:07 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

What have you all been up to lately?

KenpoTkdAckTSK
02-03-2008, 11:14 PM
Very interesting stuff and almost always wins out. We did a little work together, and my initial blocks were completely opposite of what they should have been.
For the street, it is a must look at.

SayocBlade
02-04-2008, 06:38 PM
Very interesting stuff and almost always wins out. We did a little work together, and my initial blocks were completely opposite of what they should have been.
For the street, it is a must look at.

What KenpoTkdAckTSk is meaning to say is that I was showing him some blade work and how to 'respect' the blade. You learn something new everyday and if your mind is open, everything is pretty neat :)

Sayocblade

冠木侍
02-05-2008, 12:40 PM
What I actually meant when I had asked what you guys were up to was really just a general 'what's up' type of question. I inquired because you two don't seem to post very often. So then either you must be diligently training, dealing with stuff from personal lives or this forum is just a low priority (I'm not being judgmental). Either way, just saying what's up.

Anyhow, itz cool that you were able to show him some of your techniques.

How effective were the kenpo blocking techniques against a knife attack? New stuff is always nice to learn...and if it works on the street, then it is twice as neat.

Later people.

SayocBlade
02-25-2008, 08:28 PM
What I actually meant when I had asked what you guys were up to was really just a general 'what's up' type of question. I inquired because you two don't seem to post very often. So then either you must be diligently training, dealing with stuff from personal lives or this forum is just a low priority (I'm not being judgmental). Either way, just saying what's up.

Anyhow, itz cool that you were able to show him some of your techniques.

How effective were the kenpo blocking techniques against a knife attack? New stuff is always nice to learn...and if it works on the street, then it is twice as neat.

Later people.

Hey man,

been busy lately. Whats going on?

nikcar75
02-22-2009, 03:26 AM
As earlier stated, it is all about the money, they will say and do anything to get your money into their account, "That is OK, if you move we will simply reimburse the outstanding classes". Yeah right, as that ever happened.

This would be fine though, if they had professional classes with professional instructors. Atleast in the Hoboken (NJ) school it was more important drinking coffee, checking the computer or being on the phone while conducting a class.
The only feed-back I ever heard was "great" or "good" when thas was obviously not the case from time to time, but Hey, what don´t you do to keep the students happy and make them believe they are improving and keep them coming back to spend money.

The sparring classes are a joke, especially for those who have picked up a skill or two since 80% of the time you need o sparr with someone who hasn´t spent as much money as you have.

The ten first classes you will get tired, but since each class is more or less equal your body will get used to it and the classes become truly simple.

-So if you want to get value for your money, go somewhere else!

//Nick

KenpoTkdAckTSK
05-24-2009, 12:52 AM
I'm curious to hear any horror stories those of you might have had with Tiger Schulman's Karate? A friend of mine went there and It was a nightmare

North American Grappling Association a.k.a. NAGA, as of latest event;

ADULT NO-GI TEAM WINNERS
1st Place TSMMA 1870
2nd Place West Point 580
3rd Place Jerry Jones/Impulse MMA 510
4th Place Renzo Gracie 490
5th Place K Dojo 380
6th Place Jersey Fight Club 220
7th Place Underdog BJJ 210
TIE Daddis 210
9th Place End Game 190

We hold belts in the ROC, Muay Thai Organization at the Capitale in NY, We have cage fighters, IFL fighters, Golden Glove Boxers, and it's just a matter of time before we enter the UFC and end all this bull**** and get the respect we deserve.
That's what you should fear!TSMMA 1870 v.s. Gracie in 4th position with only 490 wins. The numbers speak for themselves. Get over it.

冠木侍
06-04-2009, 01:34 AM
North American Grappling Association a.k.a. NAGA, as of latest event;

ADULT NO-GI TEAM WINNERS
1st Place TSMMA 1870
2nd Place West Point 580
3rd Place Jerry Jones/Impulse MMA 510
4th Place Renzo Gracie 490
5th Place K Dojo 380
6th Place Jersey Fight Club 220
7th Place Underdog BJJ 210
TIE Daddis 210
9th Place End Game 190

We hold belts in the ROC, Muay Thai Organization at the Capitale in NY, We have cage fighters, IFL fighters, Golden Glove Boxers, and it's just a matter of time before we enter the UFC and end all this bull**** and get the respect we deserve.
That's what you should fear!TSMMA 1870 v.s. Gracie in 4th position with only 490 wins. The numbers speak for themselves. Get over it.

You took a brief hiatus there buddy. I'm sure you are all very busy. It seems that even in this recession, people will pay for martial arts instruction and I hear that TSKMMA classes are booked solid for the summer.

GeneChing
06-06-2016, 09:16 AM
Nice crib. Guess he made bank. ;)



‘Tiger’ Schulmann puts $2.19M Soho loft on the market (http://nypost.com/2016/06/02/tiger-schulmanns-puts-2-19m-soho-loft-on-the-market/)
By Jennifer Gould Keil June 2, 2016 | 6:12am

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/196_sixth_ave-_facade.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1
196 Sixth Ave. Photo: Yale Wagner

Daniel “Tiger” Schulmann, who received his black belt at age 12 and is the owner of an eponymous chain of martial arts academies, has put his two-bedroom, two-bathroom Soho loft on the market for $2.19 million.

The third-floor co-op at 196 Sixth Ave. is 1,362 square feet.

It features a woodburning fireplace with a brick mantle and custom floor-to-ceiling millwork.

There’s also a chef’s kitchen, a master suite with a spa-like bathroom and lots of storage.

“A two-bedroom, two-bathroom loft directly below is also on the market. Combined, they are asking $3.97 million as a four-bedroom duplex.”

The building dates to 1893.

It was designed by Sgt. Nathaniel Bush, who was then the New York Police Department’s official architect, and used as the 10th Precinct police station before becoming the NYPD quartermaster’s storehouse. It was converted into a residential co-op in 1987.

Both listings are repped by Sotheby’s brokers Jeremy Stein and Jennifer Lanza.

wiz cool c
06-06-2016, 07:46 PM
I have a story. Back in the early to mid 90s I worked at a mc dojo full time for three years. I already had over a decade of martial arts training at the time mostly in tang soo do, bujinkan budo taijutsu,and some Bak mei kung fu. The school was run by a guy that called himself professor, and created his own martial arts which was an eclectic mix of karate ,boxing and some grappling and others. The system itself was not bad, but the place was run in the usually mc dojo fashion. The PROFESSOR would basically hire people with black belt in other systems and begin teaching them his curriculum to teach to the masses.

During this time there was a guy that worked part time at the school that came from a Tiger Schulman background, he was a black belt in the Tiger Schulman system. He was about the same age as myself at the time and a little taller than me about the same weight.During the black belt sparring classes I had the pleasure to spar with him. I remember catching him with three or four strike combos. I mean clear shoots, four in a row. Never had that before when sparring a black belt from any style, imagine jab cross, then round house kick then side kick all connecting one after the other. Really can't say if it was his ability or the school/systems that made him such a poor fighter, could just be an isolated incident. He also refused to grapple me in sparring.