View Full Version : Isshinryu Seisan vs other Seisan

07-07-2001, 06:12 AM
I've never seen another styles seisan, so what are the differences? Any good books or videos out there?

Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

07-07-2001, 03:00 PM
Here's Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu's version:
1) Salutations.
2) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi immediate L.outside block-R. reverse punch (Solar Plexus)-R. outside block (performed in combo, as 1 tech)
3) Crescent sweeping step forward w/ the right foot into R. Pinan dachi into immediate L. reverse punch (S.P.)- L. outside block combo
4) Step forward into L. Pinan-Lead Hand punch
5) Slide back into L. Forward Stance (not too deep) and simultaneous Low Double Fist block-strike (hitting groin/low kick with first 2 knuckles), into R. (rear leg) low whip kick
6)Still in L. forward stance, drop weight while simultaneously performing double outside block (both arms). this tech may also be interpreted as an a lapel or double arm grab. Sinking your weight upsets opponent's balance and locks in Ti technique.
7) Quickly step rear (right) foot in front and outside left foot (counter-clockwise spin), immed. Execute X-block at head level, and then low double knife hand block/strike/control to your sides (all done in passai stance).
8) Step forward with your right into R. 45 degree stance and do right reverse ridge-hand to head/neck and L. hand pull/rear block ( thumb to the side of outer thigh w/ palm facing behind you), then straighten back foot (into Pinan dachi) as you perform snake fist strike to neck/eyes (slight twisting adds torque to tech.). Repeat this combo 2 more times ending with R. forward stance (Pinan Dachi)
9) Step 45 deg. out to L. Pinan stance-double punch-R. low whip kick
10) Step 45 deg out to R. Pinan-double punch-L. low whip kick
11) Step 45 deg. to the middle into L. Pinan-double punch- R. whip kick
12) Spin clockwise into R. foot forward "L" stance while simultaneosly performing circular R. strike/block/grab, Right fist protecting Solar Plexus and L. chambered (ti tech not strike).
13) Step forward w/ R. into R. L-Stance and simult. R. overhand backfist.
14) Step back into R. Pinan execute R. outside block (L. chambered)
15) L. ft. steps forward into hidden leg, to R. rear low whip kick
16) Step into R. forward stance-R. down block
17) L. reverse punch (S.P.) into R. outside block-whip kick combo
18) Spin counter clokwise facing opp. direction into L. outside circular block/strike/grab into L. L-stance
19) Step forward into L. L-stance, do L. overhead backhand, then step back into L. Pinan w/ L. outside block
20) R. foot forward Hidden foot (crooked) stance L. low whip kick
21) Step to R. Pinan stance w/ right low block then L. reverse punch
22) Execute R. outside block/strike-lead leg whip kick and step clockwise into spinning hidden R. outside backfist (L. on top almost straight protecting upper body, R. hidden under L. just outside centerline). You should be in R. forward stance
23) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi and perform double low knife hand Seisan kickig (foot/leg trap)
24) Throw both hands into double outward half-moon leg "throw". Double knife hand Ti chamber (palms up). Execute Seisan "trap" again (double low shutos, palms down
25) Pull leg to R. knife hand grab/pull (chambering straight back)
26) With left in open hand position (shuto), strike/cross chambered R. hand over open left in closed fist position simult. closing left fist to form low x-block/strike/grab (Kiai)
27 Step L. back to right, finishing kata with Matsumura salutation.

Whewww! I hope this helps. I think I got it right, but I may have made a mistake here or there. I'm pretty sure (99.9999%), though. In Matsumura Seito the head/body is either level or sinking to provide mass to the tech.. Rising is discouraged usually as gravity works the opposite way. Our stances are NEVER deep. I think that that's one of the major differences between this style and other Japanese/Okinawan styles (even the other Shorin Ryuha). Peep this sequence and tell me if I conveyed the Kata techs in an intelligible way. Is there a Seisan in Shotokan or TKD? Do you know the Isshin Seisan, and if so what are the differences? Matsumura Orthodox also likes toe-kicks (especially at BB level), and uses a 3/4 twist punch. Anatomically/biomech. Much more stable than even the traditional horiz. Karate punch. It's just as fast as the vertical punch but stronger. By the way we have a really intricate belt system. It consists of white belt and black belt, so don't be fooled by a Matsumura Shorin white belt! Have a great week and happy training!!! :)

07-07-2001, 03:03 PM
Step 7's X or Eagle wing block/grab is performed in a forward (Pinan Dachi) not Pai Sai stance...

07-07-2001, 03:13 PM
No Seisan in TKD that I know of, unless Shotokan has it under a different name. I'll research it though as it may be in the upper BB ranks. Maybe Budokan would know, since he's studies Shotokan. Budokan are you there?

I know seisan and it's a favorite of mine, but instead of me trying to explain it here's a site where you can see it and notice the differences.

Isshinryu Seisan kata in words and pictures (http://www.isshinryu.com/seisan1a.htm)

Right to the pictures (http://www.isshinryu.com/seisan2a.htm)

BTW, glad to hear that about the 3/4 punch, since that's what I've noticed my TKD master using when he demonstrates or spars, and what I've adopted also. For some reason it's not what he teaches, so for kata it's the ye ol' horizontal punch. I also use the verticle when in close since it seems to work better inside than any other punch.

Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[This message was edited by rogue on 07-08-01 at 06:21 AM.]

07-08-2001, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the link. The Isshin Ryu Seisan is very similar to our version. Some of the hand techs are different, and the stances more upright, but all-in-all even the bunkai illustrated is similar to the application of that technique in Matsumura Seisan. I also noticed that this Isshin kata was a bit "rawer", as we use a few of techs/steps that I didn't see in this rendering. Our Seisan has more of a Chinese (Southern) flair to it. It's definitely a cool kata and I'm sure all Seisans, even the original Chinese form, share similarities. Later...

07-08-2001, 10:38 PM
Some other karate styles call it Hangetsu. But it is still the same form,...basically. :)

07-09-2001, 05:08 AM
Thanks Daedalus, then I guess we do have a version of seisan.

Hangetsu Kata in words (http://ryanshroyer.tripod.com/shotokan/hangetsu.txt)

As an added bonus here's Gankaku (Chinto) (http://ryanshroyer.tripod.com/shotokan/gankaku.txt).

While different than the Isshinryu version, close enough to recognize.

Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

07-09-2001, 10:45 AM
You're right. There are some slight differences, but the sequences are very similar. Thanks for the link.... :D

07-09-2001, 11:33 AM
Yeah, seisan is in shotokan, but I don't know how it differs from other seisans of other styles.

Over the years different style instructors have put little twists and turns in all the katas. I don't know of any kata that is exactly the same as in another style, but they may exist.

24fightingchickens.com has a good kata section that could perhaps give you more insight. It's a much better website now that the moderator closed down his forums where he normally spent time spewing vitriol.

K. Mark Hoover

07-10-2001, 04:35 AM
Thanks Budo' for the link and info...Peace!!

07-12-2001, 01:22 AM
Mr. Hoover that site is awesome. Not only do you hear the impressions a Shotokan practitioner has of MAs and Japanese Karate in particular, you're hearing it from a guy who trained in Asia (Spec. Ja)pan like me. It seems that we have a similar take on the reality of MAs. Especially the Japanization of Ti. He's 100% on point. The Japanese are no different than most racists in that their own lack of self-esteem forces them to project those insecurities on the Non-Japanese world.

They know deep inside that what they have is diluted sport just like 98% of MAs out there. They just try to hide it through control and structure. That's why I despise it when CMAs and MAs in general try to classify all Karate as Japanese or TKD. the Okinawans who created it laugh at the Japanese interpretation (humbly) and it's fine with the majority of them that the representatives of Japanese Karate are being unveiled for propagating sport as reality. Now the whole world thinks Karate is wack and we can thank The Japanese and Koreans for that. That's why I'll NEVER train in Japanese sport fighting and will stick to the original blueprint for Karate the Ryukyuan styles. I try to be diplomatic, but sometimes the truth compells me to speak out. Thanks again for the link and affirmation of what I always knew to be true. PAX ROMANA...Ryon :D

07-13-2001, 11:04 PM
video -


uechi sanchin, seisan, and sanseiryu.


"I have been in
sorrow's kitchen and
licked out all the pots.
Then I have stood on
the peaky mountain
wrapped in rainbows,
with a harp and a
sword in my hands." -
Zora Neale Hurston