View Full Version : Tae Kwon Do more effective than Muay Thai?

09-06-2001, 12:40 AM
Ok guys, I promise I am NOT trying to troll. I found this message on a tekken forum. Here is the link


This post was written by "Shin Hayato"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For all you naysayers of TKD (taekwondo) you know nothing of what you're talking about. TKD, especially Olympic style tkd, is known for it's devestatingly powerful kicks and lightning foot speed. In the time it takes most people (even trained fighters) to throw a punch a decent tkd practitioner can throw a kick from a distance keeping him safer and delivering MUCH more power than a punch. YES, punches are used in tkd but are not highlighted nearly as much in Olympic style tkd due to how the points are given and the rules of the game. YES, Olympic tkd IS full contact and points are only rewarded for blows that deliver trembling shock (which is why points generated with punches are harder to come by). We do use gear such as a trunk protector to fight and headgear, but boxers use headgear, and if we didn't use body protection the matches would be much shorter with a higher incedence of injury. No, we don't punch to the face because then it would end up being a kickboxing or point karate match. Every match would end quickly and knockouts would be occuring in almost every ring. Knockouts do still occur but I shudder to think what would happen with the addition of face punching to sparring. Yes, I do believe that our system of sparring is better than ITF Taekwondo and point sparring found in most Karate federations because we get to use full contact and will be better prepared for the shock of being struck in a regular fight.

Also, Muay Thai's kicks are not very good and are **** poor technique wise. Any decent TKD practioner will never be hit with a full power Muay Thai kick because they are so telegraphed and inherently slow due to the techniques used. Muay Thai kickboxers on the pro level may be tough but so are any of the national Olympic TKD practioners. Basically put a guys of equal level or years of experience (in actual fighting) against each other and tkd ownz muay thai.

Take Bruce Lee for instance. Who's kicking technique did he decide was the best for him to incorporate into JKD(jeet kun do)? Need you ask...it is from Taekwondo! He readily admitted it while he was alive. It is well documented in interviews and books he's written.

Also a large part of TKD is footwork as well as boxing so it can be argued there where Bruce got his influence from in that department. Emphasis on footwork, and modern training methods of Olympic Style sparring leave the practitioner well able to zone away from most in fighing (grappling) and leaves the practitioner in good enough condition and with reaction time to deal with most any attack. It's not even necessary for most Olympic style practitioners to work on complicated combinations with their hands or feet due to the increase of reaction time and speed of action that is acheived through dedicated and specific, and scientific training.

TKD's strong points are simplicity, speed, power, accuracy and conditioning. There aren't a large number of animal style moves to learn and whatnot. It is direct and to the point without wasted motion. Power is generated efficiently and to the best of your body's ability. Speed, footwork, accuracy (after having to kick very specific spots in order to get a score as well as being fast enough to hit it while it's open and have it be hard enough to generate shock or a knockout through the protective padding of the head and trunk of the body is a mean feat).

Also, no self respecting TKD master would enter a NHB tournament such as the UFC and whatnot. Maybe its due to the fact that our art has actual tenets to live by, or maybe its part of Korean and Japanese culture. None of the supposed TKD representatives were anyone I've ever heard of in the TKD community meaning they were either not learning real TKD from a real TKD instructor or were really not very good at TKD and decided to quit while later claiming to be in the style while really just using their own made up style mostly (there are many TKD school that don't really teach TKD such as the one someone posted about earlier that used muay thai ((lol)) kicks? and boxing and a 'little' grappling).

Also, for self defense is taught on top of that in various senario's and against weapons. This is mostly brought in from Hwoarangdo and Hapkido. Almost any TKD school that is decent (ie has a master from Korea or is actually in Korea) teachs Hapikido along with TKD for a more complete curiculum for self defense.

Brazillian Ju-jitsu and most grappling arts without a striking component will leave you defenseless against MULTIPLE attackers (ie You get into a fight after beating some Eddy scrub and all his gangster buddies decide that you should have lost and try to bum rush you). In these cases as you are trying to beat one guy and trap his arm and get in your 'defensive' stance by falling to the ground, his buddies are stomping you into the ground for your folly.

The NHB tournaments that I hear about the old masters (not just tkd) taking part in were overseas (Japan, Korea, China) had no referrees and no rules. The loser would end up dead or so badly injured that they would have to reconsider their fighting style or incorporate new untraditional techniques into their arsenal (ie stolen from their opponents).

So tekken 2000 and 'big' Dave? stop talking and disrespecting an art you know nothing about. Just because you got ripped from a bad tkd instructor in some watered down American tkd school don't think that that's all there is to TKD. You obviously know NOTHING about TKD.

Keep practicing poor technique from shoddy instructors and prepare to get yourz handed to you by an elite TKD player. All the training in all the martial arts in the world wont help you if you don't become proficient in any one of them.

All of you guys speak as you're an authority but not one of you has claimed to actually have any extended experience with any one martial art. And many are training spottily in many different arts. I'm not against training in different arts but it's better to put one's full concentration and effort into one to get all you can gain from it otherwise you're just wasting your time cause you will be a forever novice in them all and never understand the core differences that are involved with each[/quote]

What do you guys think? I've never seen someone speak so highly of TKD before. Do you think there is ANY truth to what this guy says?

09-06-2001, 12:53 AM

09-06-2001, 01:01 AM
As a former member of the WTF and student of the "Olympic" style of fighting, I can say that his rehtoric was programmed into him by some Korean Master who left Korea a 2nd Dan, but took the magic Belt Advancement Flight and laned on US soil a 4th Dan. This sort of propaganda is common in the WTF, and ITF communities. He's obviously young, and probably no higher rank than Red or possibly 1st Dan.

Now the reality: He's never been in a realy fight. He's never confronted more than one opponent. He's never fought with any other rules than WTF, at least not against someone who is a serious Martial Artist. He's limited his reading to TKD magazines and refuses to try other arts because he has been brainwashed by the WTF machine to believe that garbage he posted.

I'll agree that WTF fighters have great, fast, even powerful kicks. They do allow full contact, and some people do get knocked out. I do not, however, subscribe to his contention that it's better than any other tournament style. I've fought some good ITF guys, and they kick just as good, and they can use their hands far better that most WTF Players. I've also had the pleasure of having my butt kicked by Judo guys, BJJ guys, traditional Kung Fu, Karate, Wing Chun and Muay Thai guys. So what tournament or sport style is best is up to the person competing. Do they enjoy it? If so, great! Why get your panities in a wad and down everyone elses? If his contention is that WTF Players skills translate into real life self defense better.......well, I'm not sure I need to explain that to anyone who really trains.

Lastly, this poor fool is a victim of the system. Many of the large orgainizations, and I can say this because I've been in at least two, try to suck the creative and explorative tendencies right out of you. They brainwash you in to believing the very crap he posted there. There is nothing wrong with having a great deal of pride in what you do.....but you better put your ego in your back pocket before you get hurt. Best not to argue with a guy like this, he won't understand. Invite him along for a friendly sparring match. Try his rules first, only if he'll agree to yours. Then punk him and the egotistical beating will do the rest. Whew, I'll shut up now.

C. Martin
Founder Baek Ho Kwan
Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame 00'

09-06-2001, 01:24 AM
I'll agree with part of what he said about the quality of WTF/Olympic kickers, they are awesome. Are they better than Muay Thai? Maybe if the TKD guy stays at very long range and out of the clinch, which is very unlikly.

Other than that as a non-WTF TKD student, I'd agree that he's barking the party line.

Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

Dark Knight
09-06-2001, 01:25 AM
If you look at the other posters, its a group of kids, some are talking about how they developed thier own style by books and movies, but have never taken classes.

Eric Larson
09-06-2001, 01:39 AM
It is all in the fighter. You put a skilled Tae Kwon Do guy against a not so skilled Muay Thai guy, and the Tae Kwon Do guy will win.

You put a skilled Muay Thai guy against a not so skilled Tae Kwon Do guy, and the Muay Thai guy will win.

It is quite simple.

Eric Larson
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

09-06-2001, 02:00 AM
Put a half decent Muay Thai fighter against almost any TKD student, and the Muay Thai guy will win. Simple isnt it?

09-06-2001, 02:04 AM
By the way in the same forum someone was saying that all the techniques of Muay Thai are in TKD. Is this true? I know some Kung Fu style have Muay Thai techniques, but I never thought TKD did.

09-06-2001, 02:42 AM
Sure they can kick like that. Its northern chinese kicking. Too bad they don't have any hands, infighting, standing grappling. Oh they have joint locks. all 5 of them. I tell tkd blackbelt that there are 108 and the practically **** in disbelief. Too bad that they are easier to beat up than non practitioners.

Kicking is great. Unless your tired, in a subway station, wearing heavy shoes and pants that arent white and gusseted. Or the floor is slick with beer.

09-06-2001, 03:02 AM

But thanks for the laugh...

09-06-2001, 03:46 AM
I love the idea that youre going to kick a lot agaisnt multiple opponents. THis would be about as smart as going to the ground against multipe opponents.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

09-06-2001, 04:19 AM

lemme see... average decent muay thai fighter, trained to absorb, block and deflect or avoid solid thai style kicks to any part of the body vs a average decent TKD guy who most likely doesn't know how to defend leg kicks because he's not allowed to use them, and kicks not NEARLY so powerfully due to the difference in generation (sorry, a chambered kick just isn't going to be as powerful, generally speaking. Snappy and quick, yes. Bonecrushingly hurtful, not so much.)

My money is on the Muay Thai artist. I don't see how, except for a lucky shot, or extreme disparity in ability levels, the TKD guy is going to hurt the Muay Thai guy. I've been hit by decent practicioners of both. The TKD kicks caught me off guard and hurt, and they were fast, but I still managed to take the guy down. After I was nailed by a thai kick I simply wanted to amputate my leg :)

Funny though, that this is all because of the rules. Change olympic TKD rules to Muay Thai rules and suddenly it would look very much, if not exactly like Muay Thai, and vice versa.

09-06-2001, 05:17 AM
MerryPrankster, as a side note, WTF has what's sometimes called a 45 degree kick which is similar (but not the same) to the MT round kick. Like the MT kick it's a b!tch.

I agree with you about the rules.

Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

09-06-2001, 11:14 AM
TKD is good if you're a beginner.
It's mcDojo environment has good social value and there's lots of cute girls.
But TKD tournament fights a fairly dissapointing. They bounce around too much. And you can't punch. I only managed second place heavyweight in the Austrlian titles in in mid 90's because of the restrictive rules.
Also 1st degree and beyond is dull dull dull. It's more about being a part of their cult and putting in heaps of $$ and time into gradings, and events and training fees. They DO try to brainwash you with "seminars" saying how ineffective other styles are. They are very close minded.
But kung fu just rocks. It has so much more flavour. I've entered "multiple style" tournaments representing my clf club. The rules are usually more laxed so none of this pansy tip-tap tkd tournament restriction. Let's just say TKD fighters wound up on the floor a few times. :)

Good, better, Me
09-06-2001, 01:43 PM
You all train martial arts, that teach to beat other arts?

I train taekwondo because it's propably the best art of kicking there is, at least in my country.
I don't want to learn how to fight other people, or something like that. I personally take TKD as a good sport (I train WTF, and I'm a competitioner) and the kicks they teach are just amazing. How many muay thai fighters can do all the tricky stuff like my favourite 540 degrees jumping spinning kick compared to a TKD artist? They may not always be that practical, but doing them is hell of alot more fun then kicking roundhouses in the legs. I admit that thai boxers are very dangerous, and I'm scared of them :p
Anyway, I train TKD because I like taekwondo. I don't train kung fu, because I'm not interested of it. But still I don't understand people who actually train martial art so that they could stand against other arts. People shouldn't forget the true meaning of budo. Allthough the word budo is japanese, but the true meaning goes for all the arts.

"The students will eventually become like the teacher, so pick a good teacher :)"

09-06-2001, 01:53 PM
TKD the real street lethal!!!!!!!!

Dragon Warrior
09-06-2001, 01:58 PM
My sigung fought in the Pan Am games or something like that against the korean TKD fighters. He told us that they would put the legs in a sidekick chamber and from there break cinder blocks with ease.

Their modo was "if you get passed my legs, i deserve to lose." He has a lot of respect for these fighters, but he also said that it was easy to knock them out once you got passed their legs.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

09-06-2001, 03:20 PM
I can't stop laughing... my sides are cramping.... someone help me.........

" The reason that sportsmen such as boxers, and wrestlers have a higher success rate in self-defense situations over other martial artists is because they will fight in the same manner as they train." -Bruce Lee

09-06-2001, 04:14 PM
Oh my god...did he say that TKD was something BRUCE LEE took??? BRUCE uses NORTHERN SHAOLIN, WING CHUN and maybe some SAVATE kicks...I have never seen BRUCE use a WTF switch in my life.


yin lion
09-06-2001, 04:15 PM
all I know is that TKD was created so the farmers could protect themselfs from invading men on horseback thus the high kicks. now why would you use that which is made for a horseman against a standing horseless man ??? I think you would not thats why it is not that effective out of compition. :p

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

09-06-2001, 04:34 PM
Actually I agree about the Thai kicks. Thai fighters seem to be pretty limited on their kicks. Most camps only have the round kick and the front kick and the knee. Now forget about hands for a minute and if you can defend well against those 3 techs then the Thai fighter shouldn't be to much problem. Personally even though I like Thai fighting they are in the same boat as TKD, being mostly effective in the ring and not the street as much. TKD, I dunno about USA but I have seen footage of Korea training and they are strong fast kickers some of them even had good hand strikes. It's funny to me that you guys say to be open minded, I guess that only applies to Muay Thai and BJJ

New classes New online Catalog
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Crimson Phoenix
09-06-2001, 04:41 PM
As a savate player, I must say that Muai Thai kicks don't scare me that much...they are powerful alright, but kinda slow and predictable compared to the way savate kicks...their elbows and knees are what makes me all the more cautious when I spar a Muai Thai guy...Indeed TKD has incredibly skilled kicks, and it is hard to get past the storm as someone pointed out...but sport TKD guys are lost when you enter close range, so I don't even think they'd fare well against knees and elbows...I mean, come on, when they fight they let their arms hang lose alongside their bodies (head shot forbidden and point system)...if I do that just once in savate I'm dead...you cannot just rely on kicks even if you make them as good as they can be...
I'm convinced a good TKD can give a hard time to anyone, but honestly for me TKD cannot compare to Thai boxing, just their science of knees and elbows is incredible and deadly, and their low kicks, however limited on some aspects, are nevertheless devastating...
Just my 2 cents

09-06-2001, 05:02 PM
I don't think they should even be compared to completely different arts for to completely different sports for two completely different kinds of people. I think everybody should step back and see that all arts and artists are not invincible. They both have reputations people think Muay Thai is the best stand up fighting it's good but the best? :rolleyes: TKD has a reputation for sucking and I have sparred black belts and never been beaten but there is sombody out there that could probally hand me my @$$ on a platter. It just seems to me like alot of people just follow the crowd and repeat ads and things they read in articles without thinking about it themselves and giving their opinon at the risk of being "unpopular". For some reason I feel like I'm back in high school. :D

New classes New online Catalog
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09-06-2001, 05:34 PM
I also wondfer about the competition format when people talk about how good or bad TKD is. Do you allow clinchwork and shooting? IF so, TKD gets in trouble a lot easier.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Dark Knight
09-06-2001, 05:46 PM
"I also wondfer about the competition format when people talk about how good or bad TKD is. "

This is true for any style. When you compare them you must have an equal field. Boxing is the greatest fighting art for boxing rules. Olympic TKD is the best style for Olympic TKD rules. Throw a Judo guy against a TKD guy with TKD rules and see how well he does.

NHB is not TKD rules, so TKD will not do well against it, its not what they train for.

I did TKD for a few years, it was a lot of fun, very dynamic. But I like the fighting that comes from other styles. (I like to trap and grab someone, hit them hard a couple times, drop them and hit them hard some more hopefully breaking something during the process)

TKD may not have the arsenal that other styles have, but if you cant make it work it wont matter, and its important that you enjoy what you are doing with your training.

09-06-2001, 05:47 PM
Let's also not forget the fact that most martial arts schools, in the United States, don't train to fight. They train to play fight. I've never worked out with a real student of Muay Thai, who regarless of whether or not he intended to fight in the ring, didn't train like he was taking it to the ring. It's the nature of the art, just like boxing and wrestling. The missing element in most TKD, and other styles, is the lack of training for the real thing. I don't care how many 540* kicks you can do, or if you know the secret turkey lip back fist....if you aren't pressure testing this material in a heightened emotional state, you are dead meat when the poop hits the fan.

WTF TKD does NOT pressure test their material this way. It's designed to enhance tournament performance, bottom line. If that's what they want to do, great....but don't get it confused with training for real bad guys who won't follow any rules.

Train like you fight, fight like you train.

C. Martin
Founder Baek Ho Kwan
Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame 00'

Dark Knight
09-06-2001, 05:57 PM
"WTF TKD does NOT pressure test their material this way. It's designed to enhance tournament performance, bottom line. If that's what they want to do, great....but don't get it confused with training for real bad guys who won't follow any rules. "

Exactly, and I have seen mny Karate and KF schools that are the same way. Theyhave a ton of trophys to show the world, but actual street fighting is not the emphases.

But most parents want to be the proud parent of johnny who has won 50 trophys and the national championship. Not the parent of Mike "The Killer" Killowski who has been the greatest schoolyard fighter all through High School.

"or if you know the secret turkey lip back fist"

SHHHH, dont let out.

09-06-2001, 06:03 PM
What's funny is I keep forgetting WTF also stands for World TaeKwonDo Federation instead of What The F***


The Machado Philosophy:
We respect everyone and every style of martial arts.We share what we know and are open to new ideas.Martial arts is not about
fighting,but about lifestyle.Harmony is our goal,hard training is our way..

09-06-2001, 08:14 PM
Sorry, it takes a while to load, but it is worth it..

Here is a great example, as found by Bad Karma on the UG Kickboxing forum (where all of us "Sport-Warriors" post)

I still can't beleive its 2001 and we still can't get respect from some members of the traditional arts. thats the great thing about pugilism. There is a very easy way to test it. Good thing the muay thai boxer didn't use elbows or knees.... and those slow kicks.... what a shame..

" The reason that sportsmen such as boxers, and wrestlers have a higher success rate in self-defense situations over other martial artists is because they will fight in the same manner as they train." -Bruce Lee

[This message was edited by ShaolinTiger00 on 09-07-01 at 11:27 AM.]

Dark Knight
09-06-2001, 08:53 PM
he was playing with that TKD guy. That was an unfair advantage he had over him, if it were more serious the TKD guy would have been hurt.

09-06-2001, 09:06 PM
It doesn't matter. Muy Thai, TKD, Karate, Kung Fu... all are weak arts :P So you are ALL equal losers....

Except of course TKD has cuter girls in class... maybe Karate also.
I've NEVER seen a cute girl in BJJ class.... (girlfriends and such but no one actually rolling)

Dragon Warrior
09-06-2001, 09:07 PM
Are you saying that Muy Thai is not a "traditional" art??? Because if so, then you are wrong.

That fight was awesome, it definetely shows the effectiveness of muy thai. But at the same time it doesnt show anything about TKD.

That guy was horrible, i could have done the same thing to him. He did not look very experienced, and was scared as hell after the first kick the Muy Thai fighter threw. But that fight was awesome.

It basically proves how bad these commercial schools have gotton in the past 30 years.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

09-06-2001, 09:30 PM
I thought Muay Thai itself wasn't a traditional art, but a pared down version of an older art.

09-06-2001, 09:37 PM
Well, they still seal off the ring against evil spirits, yeah? And they still perform the ram muay. Seems more traditional than a lot of karate schools to me.

Of course, I doubt that all muay thai schools still do this, but I believe it's common enough practice.

Stuart B.

09-06-2001, 09:38 PM
DW, of course MT has a long history much earlier than any sporting competitions began. I do not want to debate about "what is traditional and what is not? " so, In that regard I'm not wrong (I rarely am. ;) ) just a miscommunication.

" The reason that sportsmen such as boxers, and wrestlers have a higher success rate in self-defense situations over other martial artists is because they will fight in the same manner as they train." -Bruce Lee

09-06-2001, 10:30 PM
That's a great video Shaolin Tiger. It's so funny that the sport styles destroy the traditional ones. Traditional sucks.

Note: Your religion and beliefs to not have anythign to do with something being traditional. Just becuase thai fighters seal off evil spirits or something doesn't mean their fighting style is traditional.

Dragon Warrior. You say that the TKD guy was not a qualified representative or TKD? He looked Korean. Not that race has anything to do with it but it does mean he was probably trained in Korea. He was wearing a red belt i think. I think Red belt is higher than black. And the TKD guy was throwing some fast, but ineffective kicks. He had the athletic ability to throw kicks high and fast. He was probably one of the best TKD guys. It's just that muy thai is a superior style. That's why TKD was destroyed.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

09-06-2001, 11:08 PM
im sure glad you have bested everyone from all those styles...i mean i would hate for you to actually not know what your talking about.

PS note:that was sarcasm

09-08-2001, 07:35 AM
I've done taekwondo before but now do muay thai and it's become my favorite martial art out of everything i've done. i think that they're both great as art forms and both great for physical development. But to be honest i do not think taekwondo compares to thai boxing for real fighting. not to say that a good taekwondo guy cannot fight but i think that in general muay thai is much more realistic and well rounded. muay thai seems to be directed at really fighting while taekwondo i felt was more for its own sport. yes i know muay thai people are ring fighters as well but it is still very close to real fighting whereas taekwondo competition isn't. we mostly did stuff for sport taekwondo and point fighting in the place i did taekwondo but we also had time devoted to self defense and fighting techniques. knowing what i know now i feel that the self defense part of what we learned at that club wasn't so great. but still taekwondo was a lot of fun because we were always moving and bouncing around and it was very energetic. it was a lot more fun than karate even though karate was better for fighting.

Deadliness is often masked by beauty

09-14-2001, 01:28 PM
No, red belt is not higher than black ;). That was a lousy fight and all it proves is that a better trained/skilled, determined, agressive and more confident fighter can win over an unskilled(in MMA anyway) fighter who has in himself been mentally defeated from his first contact.

The TKD fighter acts like a defensive fighter, in that he does nothing but retreats, yet he does not try to side-step or advance and attempts a few little weak, lone ,probing attacks, to which the Muay Thai responds with an onlsaught of counters everytime. The TKD guy use mostly roundhouse, i saw 1 or 2 desperatly mistimed crescents and an uncommited attempt at a spinning side/back kick. Need I go on? Indeed the muay thai guy wasn't exactly the best, but he knew exactly what he was doing and what he needed to do to win the match.


09-14-2001, 06:17 PM
The TKD guy didn't want to be there.


Never forget