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tanglangman
03-14-2001, 05:30 PM
I heard that different types of protein can have negative effects on your muscles flexibility. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? If so, should I cut out certain food groups that contain such a detrimental protein? Which ones?

Answers on a postcard....

joedoe
03-15-2001, 12:26 AM
I'm not sure about this, but I guess the fact that ballerinas, gymnasts, and contortionists follow a strict diet may indicate that this is the case.

Sorry I can't help more than that.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

IronFist
06-06-2001, 07:09 AM
"I heard that different types of protein can have negative effects on your muscles flexibility. "

Um, no. There's no such thing as a protein that can have "negative" effects on your muscles or anything else.

Protein maintains muscle, and repairs broken down muscle. It's good to eat.

Iron

joedoe
06-06-2001, 08:19 AM
Ironfist,

Protein does build muscle etc, and yes is probably not detrimental to muscle tissue (I am not sure as I am not qualified in this area) but certain proteins may affect the flexibility of muscle tissue.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

IronFist
06-06-2001, 10:04 AM
"but certain proteins may affect the flexibility of muscle tissue."

Eh? Can anyone substantiate this claim with research?

The only way protein can affect the flexibility is if you get large muscles and don't stretch. Then you will have flexibility problems.

Iron

joedoe
06-06-2001, 10:49 AM
The reason I said may, and also pointed out that I am not qualified to substantiate this statement, is because as I stated previously ballerinas, gymnasts, and contortionists usually follow a very strict low-protein diet to help maintain their flexibility. If you want harder evidence then I am sorry but I cannot provide it, and if you want to ridicule me for posting feel free to do so :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

adepss
06-06-2001, 03:58 PM
No! protein does not inhibit flexibility, your body metabolises and breaksdown foods you ingest and aminos are generated from the proteins to help maintain your bodies muscular system.

toxins like alcohol in your bloodstream can affect flexibility due to the acid build up and natural dehydration that takes place within your body, the less water in your muscles the weaker and less able to conract or stretch.

your tendons and cartilidge condition is also a factor in your ability to maintain flexibility but again proteins do not in any way hinder your flexibilty in fact it helps your muscles stay in good condition ..

UberShaman
06-06-2001, 06:49 PM
Ive had yoga teachers say the same thing, that animal proteins limit flexibility. However its definetly not true and there are some studys that suggest diets high in simple carbs can limit flexibility. If you check out the Stadion publishing site they used to have some info in there newsletters about these studies..

IronFist
06-06-2001, 10:12 PM
I gaurantee you that gymnists do not eat a low-protein diet. Pound for pound they are some of the strongest athletes out there, and they would NOT gain muscle without eating a lot of protein.

That's almost like saying Bodybuilders get huge from eating low-protein.

Iron

SevenStar
06-07-2001, 09:19 AM
Actually, research has shown that stretching stimulates the transport of amino acids (the building blocks of protein) into muscle cells, accelerates protein synthesis inside cells and inhibits protein degradation. Also, the protein elastin promotes flexibility.

-SevenStar©
Those who say "BJJ is superior!" are just repeating what they've been told and are too inexperienced to comment. Once you've been there and done that you know to never say never or that one is not always better than the other.

SevenStar
06-07-2001, 09:21 AM
Actually, research has shown that stretching stimulates the transport of amino acids (the building blocks of protein) into muscle cells, accelerates protein synthesis inside cells and inhibits protein degradation .

-SevenStar©
Those who say "BJJ is superior!" are just repeating what they've been told and are too inexperienced to comment. Once you've been there and done that you know to never say never or that one is not always better than the other.

SevenStar
06-07-2001, 09:22 AM
Actually, research has shown that stretching stimulates the transport of amino acids (the building blocks of protein) into muscle cells, accelerates protein synthesis inside cells and inhibits protein degradation.

-SevenStar©
Those who say "BJJ is superior!" are just repeating what they've been told and are too inexperienced to comment. Once you've been there and done that you know to never say never or that one is not always better than the other.

SevenStar
06-07-2001, 11:16 PM
Something screwy is going on with the backend systems of this board...

-SevenStar©
Those who say "BJJ is superior!" are just repeating what they've been told and are too inexperienced to comment. Once you've been there and done that you know to never say never or that one is not always better than the other.

SevenStar
06-07-2001, 11:17 PM
Something screwy is going on with the backend systems of this board...I noticed that it displays posts, but slowly. Server may need to be rebooted or something.

-SevenStar©
Those who say "BJJ is superior!" are just repeating what they've been told and are too inexperienced to comment. Once you've been there and done that you know to never say never or that one is not always better than the other.

David
06-10-2001, 05:30 PM
If I remember correctly from recent reading on the subject, there are 22 amino acids essential for health. 9 of these must be eaten in food and the other 13 can either be sourced from food or made within the body by recombining the essential 9.

-David
"I don't eat anything with a face."

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

Kairo
06-11-2001, 08:33 PM
If you eat too much protein then your flexibility will suffer. First of all the muscles next to your tendons will over exert themselves in an attempt to use all the protein, thus diffusing (taking) ingredients needed for respiration from your tendons, making you feel "stiff" or unflexible for long periods of time.
Secondly, you can get protein defficiancies which although they don't directly affect your flexibilty, your not gonna do much flexibility exercises in a hospital bed.
It would be good if you researched something before you say it Ironfist.
K.

IronFist
06-12-2001, 06:45 AM
(All quotes courtesy of Kairo, my replies in bold)

"It would be good if you researched something before you say it Ironfist."

Whoa, chill out there tough guy. First of all...

"If you eat too much protein then your flexibility will suffer."

Perhaps it is possible to eat too much protein and become less flexible, but the "suffering" of "flexibility" is most definately NOT direcly correlated to an increase in protein intake.

"First of all the muscles next to your tendons will over exert themselves in an attempt to use all the protein,..."

Where the hell did you get this info from? Any left over protein is stored as fat. Your muscles don't go "oh crap guys, we have to use ALL this protein!" They use what is required (providing you eat a sufficient amount), and the body stores the rest.

"...thus diffusing (taking) ingredients needed for respiration from your tendons, making you feel "stiff" or unflexible for long periods of time."

And just what part in "respiration" do your tendons play?

"Secondly, you can get protein defficiancies which although they don't directly affect your flexibilty, your not gonna do much flexibility exercises in a hospital bed."

Um, if you don't eat enough protein you may get protein deficiancies, true, they won't affect your flexibility much, but it will absolutely KILL your strength. Don't believe me? Find an ectomorph who has bulked up (I say use an ecto because their faster metabolism will allow you to see results faster) and deprive him of protein for a day or two. Watch both his strength and muscle mass plummet. My case in point earlier was that there is no way a gymnist could survive in his sport of a low protein diet. Gymnists are some of the strongest people around, thus they require a high level of protein to build/maintain their strength

Additionally, what was the relevance of the "hospital bed" remark? Please elaborate.

Iron

saochoy10
06-12-2001, 06:58 AM
but i have to totaly agree with iron here. i've heard exactly the same things that he is saying. even at the gym i go to i've read on a letter which states that your body just ****es or ****s out the extra protein or even stores it as fat. but i have never even remotely heard of your body trying to use every last bit of protein you put into you body. sorry to say here but it sounds like your wrong here to me. i also would like to hear where you came up with this info.
saochoy

[This message was edited by saochoy10 on 06-12-01 at 10:08 PM.]

UberShaman
06-12-2001, 04:02 PM
That has got to be one of the stupidest things Iv'e ever heard. The only part of your body that can be stressed by too much protein is your kidneys. And that is because like Iron Fist said you excrete the extra nitrogen from the metabolised protein in your urine, And this problem is non-existant if your taking in enough fluids.

harry_the_monk
06-14-2001, 03:42 PM
Does anyone have any good protein to bodyweight ratios, both for normal and active people??? :cool:

IronFist
06-15-2001, 02:41 AM
harry,

for active people trying to GAIN muscle, 1 gram or more per pound of bodyweight per day.

for active people not trying to gain muscle, .9-1g/lb per day.

for sedentary people, who cares, because they're sedentary and their muscles are atrophying because they're not using them.

However, high protein intake can retard atrophy in inactive people.

Good luck.

Remember, increased protein intake requires increased water intake. at LEAST a half gallon a day.

Iron

harry_the_monk
06-15-2001, 04:04 PM
Cool, take it it doesn't matter which source I use for the protein.(I mainly just get it from dairy products, beans, and what my body can digest from oats.)
btw...does anyone know how much 1lb of body weight is equal to in kilos? :D ...sorry, just don't understand stone/pound/ounces..etc., :D
If not I'll find it somewhere I'm sure....
Half a gallon, is that like 4 pints?..I normally drink lots of fruit teas throughout the day, as well as about 1 litre of water.

Oh yer, and LMAO at the sedentary people comment, guess there's no sedentary people interested in their health much anyway...

Peace...

[This message was edited by harry_the_monk on 06-16-01 at 07:10 AM.]

IronFist
06-16-2001, 06:23 AM
"Cool, take it it doesn't matter which source I use for the protein.(I mainly just get it from dairy products, beans, and what my body can digest from oats.)"

Harry,

Um, really only count it from like meats, poultry and fish. See, beans DO have protein, but with the exception of soy beans (which are a complete protein), the protein in beans is an incomplete protein, and you need to eat it with like rice to complete the amino acid sequence.

I don't know about the conversion thing. I know there's sources online tho.

Iron

PS. Hey Kairo, I'm still waiting for your argument to what I said when I replied to your post about protein.

kungfudude
06-17-2001, 06:45 AM
well i hate to burst your guys bubbles about what you have been taught about protein but i think you should take a look at this article at

http://www.dsiegel.com/wiwd/diet/protein.html

and also check this article for information on how much calcium you really need

http://www.dsiegel.com/wiwd/diet/calcium.html

and no i'm not saying i'm a doctor and i'm not an expert on these matters but if you read the articles you'll find that it makes sense

and yes i am a vegan and eat no animal products at all and i still weigh 180 pounds and i'm not just skin and bones either
i actually go out of my way to eat UNDER 30 grams of protein per day not 180 grams as IronFist recommends
I have no problem getting enough protein from plants and grains and nuts
and you dont need to mix foods to get complete protein just read the article and you'll understand

Thanks for listening
KungFuDude

[This message was edited by kungfudude on 06-17-01 at 09:51 PM.]

IronFist
06-17-2001, 08:13 AM
kungfudude,

That article is bull****. Here is the first error:

"The protein myth tells us that protein is fuel"

I've never heard anyone (myths included) that say protein is fuel. Protein has ONE PURPOSE and that is to repair (build, etc) muscle. Granted, protein may be used for fuel, but only if you eat protein and then workout immediately. Protein in and of itselff is a rather worthless supply of "fuel." The body would much rather burn carbs or fat (in that order) than protein.

The article then says:
"They then deduced that humans cannot mature on protein exclusively derived from plant sources."

Well, obviously. That's why (with the exception of soy beans) non-meat protein sources suck. You post this article, and THEN say you're a vegetarian?

It also said "your body is not mostly protein."

That's great, because no one claimed it was. This article is full of irrelevant points.

Another article from that site said:
"But the biggest reason not to eat fish is that it's a concentrated source of protein and fat. "

Um, actually there's not much fat in fish at all. Another lie.


You said:

"and yes i am a vegan and eat no animal products at all and i still weigh 180 pounds and i'm not just skin and bones either. i actually go out of my way to eat UNDER 30 grams of protein per day not 180 grams as IronFist recommends"

Not all skin and bones, but probably pretty fat if you're 180lbs. Unless you're 8 feet tall.

I'm calling your bluff, mr. kungfudude. You cannot maintain ANY significant amount of muscle mass if you eat under 30 grams of protein a day.

Iron

dave the dragon
06-17-2001, 03:14 PM
whoah!
chill out ironfist , just because you didnt agree with the article that the guy posted theres no need to give him a hard time like that
you dont know that the guys fat and have no reason not to believe him

lets try and get a bit more constructive !

IronFist
06-17-2001, 10:41 PM
Dave the dragon said:

"whoah!
chill out ironfist , just because you didnt agree with the article that the guy posted theres no need to give him a hard time like that
you dont know that the guys fat and have no reason not to believe him"

I have every reason not to believe him. At only 30g of protein per day, your muscles would atrophy, especially if you were an athlete. In fact, overtraining would occur extremely frequently at this protein level.

Granted, I did assume he is a MA/athlete since he has been registered here since 12/00. He may be a very sedentary individual, which may infact explain the fact that he thinks 30g/day is ok. But I assure you if he actively participates in MA/weight training he could not survive on 30g protein and make any progress what so ever.

kungfudude, i challenge you to bring up your opinions on protein to the bodybuilding community. they will make my reply seem polite by comparison.

I have thought of one final possibility. Perhaps kungfudude thought i was talking about fat instead of protein. 1 gram of fat per pound would make most people a fatass. But then again, it's hard to reach kungfudude's 180lbs bodyweight eating only 30g fat a day (unless he is an endomorph and by eating under 30g fat a day for prolonged peroids he has messed up his metabolism and thyroid...)

Anyway, yeah.

Oh yeah, and on his other article that kungfudude posted a link to, the calcium one, it states:

"Muscle deterioration comes with disuse, not protein deficiency--anyone who's ever worn a cast knows that"

That's also wrong. Muscle deterioration comes with disuse, true, but ALSO protein deficiency. Take away a bodybuilder's protein and watch him shrink! As for the cast refrence, yes, the muscles are atrophying from disuse, but if the person in the cast ate higher protein, the rate of atrophy would be slower. Protein not only rebuilds used muscle, but it MAINTAINS muscle as well. Why do you think bodybuilders eat extra protein when they are dieting and can't workout as hard as when they are bulking? Because the extra protein helps prevent muscle loss.

This guy (dsiegel.com) is apparently some new aged "hey let's rebel against popular thought" vegan guy with an obsession with marilyn monroe and sex, who can't support anything he says with research. If he practices what he preaches, I assure you he is not in the best of shape.

Iron

[This message was edited by IronFist on 06-18-01 at 01:53 PM.]

kungfudude
06-18-2001, 06:16 AM
Well i try to politely give out some good information, and what do i get? I get called fat by some guy name IronFist.

IronFist, I know a guy who has been vegetarian for 5 years and trains in Kung Fu very vigourously and gets under 30 grams of protein per day as well, and if I were to bet on a fight between him and you I would definetly bet on him.
He's the fastest guy I've ever seen and if he ate 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day like you suggest, I assure you he would be as slow as you are.

And I dont think his muscles have atrpohied either as he can hold the horse stance for almost 10 minutes straight.

Why do you think cancer is so prevalent in todays society? My theory is that its because when you eat too much protein and your body can't get rid of it the protein will be used to build new cells sometimes even cancer cells. If there's too much building material, your body can go out of control with it and build new cells sporadically.

And saying that you need to eat meat or mix different foods to get complete protein is a load of crap. If you eat enough healthy food(vegetables, fruit, nuts, seeds, etc.) your body will take parts from each food to create the proteins it needs, you dont need to eat complete proteins at every meal at the same time!
Thats like saying if you go to replace your cars tires you have to replace the engine too and the brakes and every other part so that its "complete". It just doesn't make sense does it.

And i suggest if your going to argue a point you don't call people names as if your a 3 year old child. Why dont you try acting like an adult and argue construtively instead of calling people fat?

I thank you all for listening, and you dont have to believe me if you dont want to but i assure you that i am a lot more healthy than i ever was since becoming vegan and my endurance has increased dramatically. And i am not a fat, weakling either or 8 feet tall (i'm 6 feet 2 inches) and am somewhat strong but of course must still work hard to get better :). I apologize to every one of you for the actions of guys like IronFist and beg your forgiveness for setting him off. I guess some people just don't understand the etiquette and humbility of Chinese Martial Arts and would rather result to name calling and mud slinging.

Thanks for listening

KungFuDude

IronFist
06-18-2001, 08:45 AM
Quotes here from kungfudude, replies in bold.

"Well i try to politely give out some good information, and what do i get? I get called fat by some guy name IronFist. "

I didn't call you fat, my quote was "Not all skin and bones, but probably pretty fat if you're 180lbs. Unless you're 8 feet tall." I said you are "probably fat," not you "are fat." But let's not argue semantics.

"IronFist, I know a guy who has been vegetarian for 5 years and trains in Kung Fu very vigourously and gets under 30 grams of protein per day as well, and if I were to bet on a fight between him and you I would definetly bet on him."

I'm glad you know how well I can fight. Also, what gauges power? I could break a board with a one inch punch through 3 phonebooks long before I ever picked up my first weight. What I'm saying is, I never said that muscles and protein are the ONLY way to gain power.

"He's the fastest guy I've ever seen and if he ate 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day like you suggest, I assure you he would be as slow as you are. "

Whoa buddy, first of all, I'm not slow. Second of all, protein, as I already explained on the first page of this thread, does NOT make one slow (or inflexible, as was the original argument). Because I know you want proof, go read the book "The Art of Expressing the Human Body," by Bruce Lee. Read about how much protein he consumed daily. It was quite a bit! Now, try to argue that Bruce was so slow because he ate a lot of protein.

"And I dont think his muscles have atrpohied either as he can hold the horse stance for almost 10 minutes straight. "

Well, if he's doing it properly, he wouldn't be using much muscle strength anyway.

"Why do you think cancer is so prevalent in todays society? My theory is that its because when you eat too much protein and your body can't get rid of it the protein will be used to build new cells sometimes even cancer cells. If there's too much building material, your body can go out of control with it and build new cells sporadically."

Well, I don't know why cancer is so prevalent. As for protein, if you read what I said, I've always said that inactive people don't require as much as active people. So, ideally, you wouldn't eat more than you need. I also always advise people to drink lots of water if they increase their protein intake. In fact, it's been proven that extra (unused) protein is excreted in the urine, so I doubt much of it is stored aside from what is actually used.

"And saying that you need to eat meat or mix different foods to get complete protein is a load of crap"

Kungfudude, go get an organic chemistry textbook and read up on proteins and amino acid sequences.

"And i suggest if your going to argue a point you don't call people names as if your a 3 year old child. Why dont you try acting like an adult and argue construtively instead of calling people fat?"

A) I didn't call you any names. I called the author of the articles you listed some names, but not you. B) I'm arguing very constructively :)


"I thank you all for listening, and you dont have to believe me if you dont want to but i assure you that i am a lot more healthy than i ever was since becoming vegan and my endurance has increased dramatically. "

If you have found a way to increase your energy, then I applaud you. The only point I've argued up until this post, however, is that 30g of protein daily is not enough to build or maintain any significant muscle mass or strenght. I said nothing of energy (of which protein isn't even related). In fact, if protein is in fact related to energy levels, then how come when people do low/no carb high protein diets, they feel like crap and have absolutely NO energy even tho there is an abundance of protein? Exactly. Because protein is not a significant energy source (again, this is refuting what was said in the article you listed). I said nothing about a person's "power" either. All I've ever argued was muscle.

"I apologize to every one of you for the actions of guys like IronFist and beg your forgiveness for setting him off."

Setting me off, eh? I haven't been set off, I'm just afraid that some beginner athlete here might start eating only 30g of protein per day and not make any progress.

"I guess some people just don't understand the etiquette and humbility of Chinese Martial Arts and would rather result to name calling and mud slinging. "

And I guess some people not only play for the sympathy of the other members here, but also don't research things themselves.

If you wish to continue this conversation, then I look forward to our discussion. However, please don't take my quotes out of context."

Iron

David
06-18-2001, 12:08 PM
IronFist,

I refer you to my previous post at the end of page 1.

All proteins are created by plants. The animals you eat to get protein got that protein from plants or from lower animals who got it from plants.

Without fortified food. The only reason you need fish is because the algae and seaweed that's in their food chain contains one of the essential protein acids.

Meat is a lowest common denominator protein source. The plants are the source and it comes packed with super phytochemicals, too - not present in any meat.

The cancer thing that Dude was on about is to do with meat, fish and dairy products being primarily indicated in 12 of 16 most common cancers. In the other 4, it made no difference.

I've only been vegan since Arpil 30th but I'm loving it and having a good time getting stronger.

From my reading 30g of protein isn't enough for a 180 pound martial artist - not even from the top source Tofu (from soya).

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

IronFist
06-19-2001, 09:16 AM
Quotes from David.

"All proteins are created by plants. The animals you eat to get protein got that protein from plants or from lower animals who got it from plants."

True, however, humans only get protein from eating the muscles of animals. When you eat a chicken breast, for example, that's muscle. Protein = muscle. (this doesn't apply to things like soy beans, tofu, milk, etc... i can't wait for someone to misquote me on that, however).

"Without fortified food. The only reason you need fish is because the algae and seaweed that's in their food chain contains one of the essential protein acids."

Umm... fish is just a good low fat low carb protein souce. That, and it contains the essential fatty acid omega 3 :)

"Meat is a lowest common denominator protein source. The plants are the source and it comes packed with super phytochemicals, too - not present in any meat."

Perhaps, but eat all the plants you want and you won't get adaquate protein.

"The cancer thing that Dude was on about is to do with meat, fish and dairy products being primarily indicated in 12 of 16 most common cancers. In the other 4, it made no difference."

I think he just made it up.

"I've only been vegan since Arpil 30th but I'm loving it and having a good time getting stronger."

If it works for you, go for it! Just please tell me you're eating more than 30g protein per day.

"From my reading 30g of protein isn't enough for a 180 pound martial artist - not even from the top source Tofu (from soya)."

Thank you!!!
But what do you mean Tofu is the "top source?" I assume you mean for vegetarians.

Iron

David
06-19-2001, 12:24 PM
Hi IronFist,

My protein intake is about 140g/day. the thing about veganism is you have to really know what you're doing in the kitchen. It's a real eye-opener.

As for the quality of protein found in plants vs meat, it's the bit you didn't quote that has the answer. The phyto-chemicals in the plants are conducive to better use of the the protein in our bodies.

I don't get you saying humans only get protein from animals at all... I can almost hear the blood lust in that statement!

Without wanting to name anyone, I know a senior master in my style has been vegan for close on 10 years but you'd never guess by looking. The veggie argument came up once before on this site and it was observed that elephants are vegetarian... Don't worry, mate -we'll be fine.

BTW I was a confirmed carnivore until going vegan and I'm glad I'm out of it. The levels of heavy metals, dioxins, hormones, anti-biotics etc etc in meat and fish are alarming. And, of course, animal fats are largely the worst. You get your omega-3 from fish but the fish get it from algae and seaweed... I get mine from seaweed, linseed and a bit from nuts.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

harry_the_monk
06-19-2001, 03:36 PM
I have actually been a veggie for the last 6 months, and have taken up weight training, and more cardio work, my shape(toned+bigger) and speed has grown considerably in such a short space of time. My worry is that two weeks ago I decided to go vegan. Question from me was more how much protein should be used as intake, which I think Ironfist answered quite directly. Can any of you vegans suggest a site where I can find good food combos for a daily intake?
Sorry Ironfist, but I just can't cause any more unneccesary killing(please do not comment on the fact that plants are alive also!!!!) :D :D

Peace...

David
06-19-2001, 05:06 PM
I was lucky when I went vegan because my girlfriend was already long term vegan. She pointed me at books, helped me shop and showed me what to cook and eat.

Sorry, I don't have any internet links - the internet is for my daily Dilbert cartoon, Saab discussion, kung fu discussion and playing Half-Life CounterStrike.

I can recommend the first book I bought. It might even have a site of it's own cos it mentions the web a fair amount... Sorry, I can't remember the title or author - will look it up. It has a section listing loads of meals and a chapter on athletes.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

Lost_Disciple
10-01-2001, 11:08 PM
TTT

Just thought maybe I could pull up some background for anyone reading the Protein Drinks thread. And maybe why more "pro-protein" people aren't responding.

Still trying to find my 50g/meal research study... and my old stretching program too as a matter of fact.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.