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View Full Version : The Whole Grappling Vs Standup Argument



KnightSabre
11-01-2001, 10:30 AM
I wasn't going to reply but reading some of these posts I think I'm gonna have to.

Not even sure where to begin.

Ok I've trained in a few styles including Wing Chun (2 years under world champ Steven Zippliers),Northern Long Fist and 5 Animals (4 and a half years).I really enjoyed them but I was still searching.

Now I train Muay Thai/JKD and BJJ/Submission Grappling.
I've been training MMA for about 5 years now.

I think that the striker vs grappler argument is stupid.The truth is you need to learn both.
Just think how well rounded you will be if you can fight at any range,striking,clinching,and the ground.

I sence that the kung fu guys feel threatened by BJJ.Apart from guys like Ralek shoving BJJ in your faces I really think that deep down inside you feel threatened.Instead of feeling like this and saying how your tiger rake,or snake strike to the eye could stop him from taking you down,why don't you combine it with your kung fu?

I have 3 friends who still train at the kung fu school that I trained at.They have been there like 8 almost 9 years.There standup fighting is good,but when they decided to come to me for private lessons in grappling they were amazed.They then told me that it's a different world on the ground and that the chin na they had learnt didn't work in most of those situations.

After about 6 months of privates they started to beat the guys 3 or 4 years ahead of them,they also told me that once they got one of the seniors to the ground the seniors didn't have a clue what was going on.

I'm not saying that kung fu is bad,in the same sence I sparred (full contact) against a pro Heavy Weight boxer,he hits like a mule and he was definately dominating the standup ,but once I got him on the ground it was so easy for me to avoid his punches and to put him into submissions or hit him.Why cause just like the kung fu guys he didn't know how to fight on the ground.Where is this guy now?He supplements his boxing with BJJ and is gonna be a real bad ass one of these days.
He also happens to be a bouncer and has told us on numerous occasions how he used grappling to defeat guys on the street.

I've had a NHB match (no biting,groin strikes,eye gouging) with a 2nd degree Ninjitsu instructor.I won the match in 35 seconds by using a slam take down and mounted punches,I think if I had tried to beat him standup the fight would have taken alot longer.

It also bewilders me when guys say "but on the street you won't tap".
Tapping is done to stop one of many things.
Arm bar - your arm will be broken.
Key Lock - Your shoulder will be dislocated.
Any choke - You will pass out and be kicked to death.
Ankle lock - Your ankle will be snapped.
Knee bar- Your knee will be popped.
Neck Cranks - tap out or expect serious damage.
Kimura - Shoulder dislocation.

BJJ is not perfect,no style is.
Thats why you combine two good styles to make a formidable combination.

I do however from my experience and from what I've witnessed believe that as a singular style BJJ is the best fighting style there is.The only guys that consistently beat BJJers are MMA.No single style has consistently beaten them.

Anywayz enough of my ranting,I respect all arts but I do believe that style has alot to do with how well you can fight.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

gfhegel21
11-01-2001, 03:17 PM
Good post.

Budokan
11-01-2001, 04:24 PM
"I sence (sic) that kung fu guys feel threatned by BJJ. I really think that deep down inside you feel threatened." --Knighsabre's psychological analysis on how we all feel deep down inside. :rolleyes:

Uh, thanks for the Freudian (or this actually may be Jungian, I don't know) analysis (I guess) but no thanks. I know this is going to come as a complete shock to your narrow-visioned world, but many of us DON'T feel threatened. I know it hurts to hear that, and shakes the foundation of your already misguided belief, but you're a big fellow now and sometimes people have to hear the truth so they don't go around wasting their time in La-La Land.

Trust me, we're not threatened either by your style, or you, or Rolls or any other BJJ bomb-thrower who comes onto these pages and makes similar claims.

In a nutshell, it's all so very *YAWN* tiresome. :rolleyes:

K. Mark Hoover

LEGEND
11-01-2001, 04:51 PM
Does that are willing to EMPTY their cup of tea and try something different...LOL...like I said before...to stop a grappler learn to sprawl, ****, crossface...learn the anti-takedown tactics...relying on KO( elbow or punch to the head crap ) is wishful thinking. It's not necessary for kf standup fighters to supplement their game with BJJ. Just learn to avoid the ground by anti takedown tactics.

A

JWTAYLOR
11-01-2001, 05:18 PM
Legend, I agree, but you had better train your anti takedown techniques as much and as hard as they train their takedown techniques. Depending on the art, that's pretty hard to do. BJJ, for example, seems pretty weak in the takedown department as compared to something like Greco Roman or Freestyle wrestling or even Shuai Jiow.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Tigerstyle
11-01-2001, 05:25 PM
Budokan,
I think you lash out at BJJ'ers because, deep down, you fell threatened by BJJ. :p

KnightSabre,
I agree with you about a combined striking/grappling approach (as I'm sure most people here do too).

I started learning a bit of wrestling and BJJ with a friend a little over a year ago (only a little, because we don't have a set schedule to train together). It has really improved a lot of aspects of my MA training. I have even begun to see more applications in the forms that I know.

I don't go to a kung fu school that teaches the "complete style" (you know, the 5% of all kung fu schools that 80% of the kung fu people here seem to be lucky enough to have found ;) ), so I use the grappling to "recreate" my "complete style".

IMHO, Crosstraining is as old as martial arts, so I think I'm being very traditional in my approach.


BTW: Budokan, I saw a traditional Shotokan school at a MA demonstration not too long ago, and that school ROCKED!

Jaguar Wong
11-01-2001, 05:29 PM
"I sence that the kung fu guys feel threatened by BJJ.Apart from guys like Ralek shoving BJJ in your faces I really think that deep down inside you feel threatened.Instead of feeling like this and saying how your tiger rake,or snake strike to the eye could stop him from taking you down,why don't you combine it with your kung fu?"

I know Budokan didn't really agree with the first part of this quote, and I must say I think it's not entirely accurate. A lot of the traditionalists don't feel threatened, most just have a sense of security in their anti-takedown techniques. I'll admit that I learned a couple of techs to stop takedowns in Kung Fu, but I never really trusted them, only because I never tried them. I don't know if they'll work, but until I find out, I probably won't be relying on them.

But, the rest of the quote is good. I don't think they need to go and add BJJ to their arsenal (it can get pretty expensive if they don't have many options as to how they can learn it, along with their base style). I do, however feel that they need to at least find some compitent grapplers (preferably wrestlers, because they're very abundant, and more than willing to work with you) to attempt takedowns and actually see if your techs work. I would personally try to get at least a basic understanding of the other style, though, but I think you can get by if you're at least exposed to the style, and learning to use your art against other styles.

One of Musashi's key principles is "Become familiar with all arts." Meaning that if you are familiar with their tactics (not just what you see on TV, but a more in-depth knowledge with actual practitioners), you'll have a better chance at using your personal strengths to defeat them. Not 100% of the time, but at least you won't be caught off guard, and flop around until you're flattened with a rather thugish G&P (my personal favorite right now since I'm getting better at the knee on belly position :)).

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

gfhegel21
11-01-2001, 05:30 PM
Methinks budokan doth protest too much.

Jaguar Wong
11-01-2001, 05:32 PM
JWT, that's true, but I think a lot of stand up styles have much weaker takedown defenses, like Boxing :). Sometimes BJJ isn't concerned with stopping the takedown, because their working for a sub the second they hit (like Frank Shamrock vs Kevin Jackson, and Enson Inue vs Royce Algiers).

Some of the best anti takedown guys generally have a very indepth understanding of how to root, without having to go through all the stance work that we did :). Wrestlers and Judoka are pretty solid with both feet planted.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

thumper
11-01-2001, 05:45 PM
I've been taking Ba Gua now for a few years and I'd be down to take some bjj classes to understand their approach to taking fights to the ground. If anything, it'll improve my Ba Gua. Anyone know of any good classes in the NY/NJ, and the FL areas (i'm constantly going back and forth)?

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

Nexus
11-01-2001, 05:57 PM
Get a good foundation in the art that you train in, and then feel free to try out other arts and get a feel for what you need to modify in your art to accomodate the approach other MA take. Also keep in mind that at 80 years old, BJJ may not be as effective as it was when you were 25.

- Nexus

LEGEND
11-01-2001, 06:01 PM
nexus...i would have to say bjj is very effective primarily it's a leverage art like tai chi.

A

Ryu
11-01-2001, 06:01 PM
I like them both.
But I guess I consider myself prodominently a grappler. That being said, there is merit in being able to throw a guy onto the ground and G&P from there without necessarily going down there with him.
Happens all the time in NHB too.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Archangel
11-01-2001, 06:13 PM
Many fighters from Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing, Kyokoshin Kai readily admit that their art is incomplete and learn groundfighting. I don't see why it's so difficult for alot of Kung Fu fighters to humble themselves and do the same.

gfhegel21
11-01-2001, 06:34 PM
justa man:

Go to BJJ.org and poke around there; there are some top notch instructors both in NY/NJ and Florida. In particular, in the NYC area (including NJ) look for Renzo Gracie's school; they have a very good reputation.

Xebsball
11-01-2001, 06:35 PM
I fear no style, check out my signature.

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

Xebsball
11-01-2001, 06:44 PM
Seriusly, its not that i dont like bjj techniques, its not that i dont think its effective.
The reason why i dont do it its because first i want the basic from kung fu and only then crosstrain.
Other reason is that i'm not ******* paranoid, you know its not like: WOOOOO I DONT CROSS TRAIN GROUND FIGHTING, I'M GONNA DIE! DIE! SOMEBODY HELP ME!
I know two bjj guys and in future i may train with them in their school, but thats "future" not now.

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

Ralek
11-01-2001, 06:51 PM
Isn't it funny that kung fu guys are flocking around to learn BJJ, but no BJJ guys are trying to learn kung fu?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Xebsball
11-01-2001, 07:04 PM
Isnt it funny how no one really gives a **** about what you say?

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

yenhoi
11-01-2001, 07:30 PM
lol.

we are talking about FIGHTING.

strike!

chokeyouout2
11-01-2001, 07:46 PM
My egow kraw is undefeetable!

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Budokan
11-01-2001, 08:06 PM
Rolls, isn't it funny you get "plunger raped" every night by your neighbors?

K. Mark Hoover

Budokan
11-01-2001, 08:09 PM
LOL! @ Tigerstyle.

K. Mark Hoover

thumper
11-01-2001, 08:20 PM
ralek, who's "flocking"? i've read your posts and they are mostly nonsense so I wasn't gonna reply to this, but I don't notice any kung fu guy on this thread "flocking" to learn BJJ. i think I'm the only kung fu cat who said he'd be interested in BJJ, if only to make my kung fu better.
say no to drugs man.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

Water Dragon
11-01-2001, 08:37 PM
Here's my view. Almost every CMA has some type of horse stance. Almost every CMA has some type of front stance. Why shouldn't every CMA have some type of guard or some type of mount? Modification and adaptation does not cheapen tradition, it enhances it.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

Wongsifu
11-01-2001, 09:21 PM
erm isnt it usually the guy who feels threatened who allways wants to challenge others ?? erm maybe ?? you know like the guy who used to pick on people at school , when you gave him a dirty look he would shut up.
I think bjj guys are threatened by the fact that they keep on wanting to spar us and we aint bothered for shiat

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Johnny Hot Shot
11-01-2001, 09:34 PM
I agree BJJ is an excellent complement to stand up fighting. Since I have started (About 4 months now) I have really gained an appreciation for the style and how it has made me look at the complete picture a little more when it comes to fighting. But I'd still take a good KO to a tap out anyday. As for street effectiveness I would only go to the ground if I had to but I would not even think about taking it there.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

LEGEND
11-01-2001, 09:42 PM
Regarding taking it to the ground it is a personal preference...some peeps are just not willing to go toe to toe...they either don't have the body structure or chin to last in standup...so they are adaptable to grappling. The thing about grappling is when u use grappling...most peeps will attempt to out grapple you but u having more experience will outgrapple them...and vice versa with striking. So personal preference is the deciding factor!

A

Braden
11-01-2001, 10:14 PM
There are just as many options for smaller individuals in 'stand-up' or 'striking' as there is in 'groundfighting' or 'grappling.'

yenhoi
11-01-2001, 10:38 PM
I never, never, never want to be on the ground with a enemy - regardless of numbers.

strike!

Buhma
11-01-2001, 10:43 PM
So then what happens if you end up on the ground... you just give up and die?

<hr>
If ya ain't got the skills, I will take you out!

yenhoi
11-01-2001, 10:54 PM
If for some god forsaken reason I end up on the ground, I will fight my opponents there until I can get back on my feet.

I didnt say I didnt know how to fight on the ground, just that I dont want to.

:p

strike!

Water Dragon
11-01-2001, 10:57 PM
I never thought I'd see myself typing this but...

SifuAbel, you are dead on. Just because you don't want to be there, you **** well better be able to defend yourself if you do.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

Archangel
11-03-2001, 03:42 AM
Can you explain how you'd fight your way out from the ground? what techniques would you use to defend yourself?

jimmy23
11-03-2001, 04:06 AM
I cant comprehend a serious martial artist who doesnt have the desire to have a balanced set of skills. I cant understand grapplers who dont achieve a basic level of proficiency in stand up, not strikers who dont do the same for ground fighting.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Watchman
11-03-2001, 04:07 AM
That's not the "real" SifuAbel.

Grahf1
11-03-2001, 04:42 AM
Every law enforcement officer I have talked to says that the easiest way for them to win a fight is to choke out the opponent.

I agree that some kung fu people feel threatened by BJJ. It's not just kung fu people, but Karate, TKD, Judo. For some reason, boxers and kickboxers seem more open minded to BJJ. This is just MY experience.

KungFuGuy!
11-03-2001, 05:23 AM
BJJ is flawed, it has absolutely no value when you are attacked by more than one person. Also, it doesn't teach defense against weapons.
It's good in the ring, but there are many scenarios where it has no use on the street.

Watchman
11-03-2001, 05:28 AM
Where's Art's dead horse pic when you need it?

Grahf1
11-03-2001, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BJJ is flawed, it has absolutely no value when you are attacked by more than one person. Also, it doesn't teach defense against weapons.
It's good in the ring, but there are many scenarios where it has no use on the street.[/quote]

Oh but wait! Isn't it the style, not the person that matters????

jimmy23
11-03-2001, 05:47 AM
uh, ok, kung fu guy,


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

KungFuGuy!
11-03-2001, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grahf1:

Oh but wait! Isn't it the style, not the person that matters????[/quote]

I never said that, style is very important.

My statement received some sarcastic responses, but no one bothered to attempt at disproving what I said.

Grahf1
11-03-2001, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I never said that, style is very important.[/quote]

Oh, but aren't you now contradicting what most of this forum believes??

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My statement received some sarcastic responses, but no one bothered to attempt at disproving what I said.[/quote]

Thats because you brought up a lame, old argument.

And what makes you think Kung Fu will save you against multiple opponents? Just one guy must be a piece of cake for you people :)

KungFuGuy!
11-03-2001, 06:56 AM
I haven't been here long, so I didn't realize that I was just beating a dead horse. All I was saying is that kung fu isn't incomplete like bjj.
Although multiple opponents would be challenging for just about anyone, a kung fu student has a far better chance of winning that fight than an equaly skilled bjj student.

Ryu
11-03-2001, 07:26 AM
I do judo and I'm not threatened by BJJ.
When it first came out I was heading for the closest BJJ schools.
I think BJJ addresses groundfighting more completely than other arts (yes including judo). Their mount skills and knee on stomach skills are probably the easiest to learn for self-defense, and that's what I like about it.
I think a great number of people on this board want to learn more about groundfighting, and some of them have even taken up BJJ and judo.
Focus on them more.

Even though I consider myself a grappler I don't think other arts have nothing I can't use.
I like the Biu Jee from Wing Chun,
I like groin kicks from various Kung Fu arts,
and I think boxing has some of the best hand skills out there.

Everything has something you can use. Just gotta find it and functionalize it.


Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Braden
11-03-2001, 08:27 AM
KungfuGuy - I don't like the "completeness" argument, but since you opened that can of worms - kungfu is as negligent in approaching groundwork as BJJ is at standing. So to say one is complete and the other isn't would be absurd.

As far as BJJ being "useless" is various scenarios - if you're brought to the ground, you're clearly in a much better predicament if you have competency on the ground than if you don't - regardless of other factors such as multiple opponents, etc.

SevenStar
11-03-2001, 08:35 AM
"Every law enforcement officer I have talked to says that the easiest way for them to win a fight is to choke out the opponent."

I'm sure they didn't mean by taking him to the ground and going for a rear naked. We would have a high law enforcement mortality rate if that were the case. As for choking from a standup position, sure, but you don't need BJJ for that. Actually, from what I have seen of military and police training, most of the grappling/throws are more closely related to chin na and judo. Dealing with the situations that they do, the ground is the last place they need to be.

However, I do see reason to know grappling, which is why I do it also. If I get taken down, I want to know how to handle myself, and how to quickly get back up.

As for kung fu not containing ground grappling, I'm willing to bet that there are styles that contain it - I would guess monkey and snake at least - most schools today don't teach it.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

SevenStar
11-03-2001, 08:58 AM
"Everything has something you can use. Just gotta find it and functionalize it."

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

yenhoi
11-03-2001, 10:27 AM
I am competent in Chin Na and have studied/trained some BJJ, as for techniques..


Still dont want to goto the ground, like Seven Star said.

strike!

Archangel
11-03-2001, 05:46 PM
Yen

I'm curious to what Chin Na exactly is. Can you or someone point me to a websight or a book that has info on techniques, structure, direction etc.

Braden
11-03-2001, 06:25 PM
AA - Chin Na is a generic term for chinese grasping and locking methods. Most chinese arts have their version of it. If you're interested in it, there is a book and companion video available: http://www.shenwu.com/books.htm . I haven't read them myself, but I've heard good things, and his 'effortless combat throws' book is very, very good.

Royal Dragon
11-03-2001, 06:46 PM
First, I want to say I LOVE Kung Fu!! It's a passion of mine. BUT, I would also croos train in wrestling BJJ or some other submission ground if I could. Why? you ask? Is it because I feel my Kung Fu is "incomlete?", Is it because I feel Grappeling is the ultimate fighting method?

NOOOOOOOO!! It's because grappeling is COOL!!!

It also has some Liability advantages. I mean pinning a guy on the ground till the cops show up is going to look WAY better to a judge than breaking his jaw. Right?

You Said
"I'm sure they didn't mean by taking him to the ground and going for a rear naked. We would have a high law enforcement mortality rate if that were the case. "

Reply]
Actually, if you watch cops alot, you'll see they bring criminlals to the ground all the time, and pin them well enough to cuff'em!! For cops, BJJ mixed with Taji, Bagua or Aikido would be a perfect mix as striking is not thier goal due to the fact that they are trying to apprehend thier criminal, not maim or kil him.

Just a though,

Royal Dragon

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. "The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!"


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

yenhoi
11-03-2001, 06:52 PM
I dont know of any books for Chin Na - there are thousands on BJJ. The Fighters Notebook (I think thats it's name) has been very helpful to me, you get it at mma.com (i think).

Find an instructor. You qill get quicker 'results' from BJJ.

Any BJJ blue can teach you things.

strike!

yenhoi
11-03-2001, 06:58 PM
Watch cops alot and see:

how many 'criminals' (hostiles, opponents) they are dealing with at one time.

how many cops there are (generally more then the hostiles - the swat ones are neat tho.)

notice the opponent is usually running from the cops not 'agressing.'

although, in some, the criminal is definitly a resisting opponent.

:D

strike!

Royal Dragon
11-03-2001, 07:06 PM
I spent just over a year training with a Cook County Sherif in the mid 90's, and he DID have to pound a few guys into submission before going to a pinn and cuff technique, so were back to the just learn it all, and you'll do fine mentality again.

Also, if you watch the ground work of most law enforcment guys, they generally seem to slam thier opponents into the ground face first and pin with a knee to the spine wile grabbing arms and bringing them back into what I have dubbed "the policeman's arm bar" as it is a good position to get the cuffs on thier opponents.

I wonder how long you could hold a guy down like that WITHOUT cuffs?

Royal Dragon

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. "The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!"


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

blaktiger
11-03-2001, 11:44 PM
In response to this overwrought topic, some of us aren't looking to fight, period.

BJJ is fine if you want to compete in UFC, etc. I'm sure most CMA's including myself, want to stop an opponent in a few seconds and walk away. Who the hell wants to tie up with some drunk or some 'roid freak, just to wait for his buddies to show up from behind you?

And for those of you who think muggers run up and tackle people, so everyone needs to add BJJ to their repetoir - let me respond with a hearty DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH :rolleyes: Ask someone from the ghetto (Newark, NJ; Washington DC, and Tacoma, Wa myself) it just doesn't happen that way. Muggers don't bother with strongarm robbery anymore; it takes too long. So why don't we all add anti-knife/gun techniques to our arts and leave it alone.

The dead horse is still dead.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

Ryu
11-03-2001, 11:52 PM
I add anti-knife stuff to my art! :D
I'm so cool!!!


;)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Archangel
11-04-2001, 02:33 AM
Thanks Braden,

Thats a really informative sight.

Budokan
11-04-2001, 02:45 AM
Do the BJJ guys think that if they just keep hitting a little harder maybe that dead horse will actually get up? :rolleyes:

Or do they misinterpret the flinches of this dead horse from their blows to be signs of actual life? More's the pity. :rolleyes:

K. Mark Hoover

Braden
11-04-2001, 02:50 AM
AA - I'm glad you liked it. Tim is surely some of the rare 'good oil' that's out there.

BAI HE
11-04-2001, 01:25 PM
I think Yang, Jwing Ming has a book on Shaolin Chin Na.

Also there is a chinese fast-wrestling book, but I'm not sure who wrote it.

Jaguar Wong
11-04-2001, 06:01 PM
The Practical Chin Na book is a good one (It's on the Shen Wu site). It's a very detailed yet easily understandable description to how the locks work, and it's also got a lot about the different principles of using Chin Na (like mixing it with strikes, and other off balancing techs). I just didn't like the actual applications section relying on stuff like catching the strikes. I used a lot of the techniques in there (especially the basic techniques that are listed in the beginning), but I don't try to "catch" anything with it. And I'm sure most Kung Fu guys that use Chin Na would agree :)

As for the Yan Jwing Ming books. They tend to be more like encyclopedias of good solid Chin Na principles and techniques, but if you're looking for basic principles and a good foundation, I would recomend starting with Practical Chin Na. But if you're coming from a predominatly stand up locking art (Aikido, Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Hapkido, etc), you would probably understand a lot of what's in YJM's books. I didn't have as solid of an understanding as most do, so I picked up the Practical Chin Na book first. I also have a friend that's pretty good at Chin Na (He learned it as a child without realizing it), that shows me how to clean up my basics.

If you're looking for ground fighting techs, I'm sure you could use a lot of the Chin Na stuff on the ground, but I don't know of any books that show you the details on that. You would have to experiment on your own, so if that's your thing, I would suggest just sticking with BJJ. There are a lot of good Chin Na techniques that can bring your opponent down, if you're in a clinch, or if you get a hold of a limb, and there are a couple of good tekedowns that can be done from striking range that don't require contact to initiate, but I think the primary strength of Chin Na is the ability to suppliment strikes with off balancing and locking techniques so you can stay on your feet if possible. It will also teach you how to escape any locking attempts. I use the simple stuff to stay out of submissions, but I haven't been able to use Chin Na to escape the subs once they're on. I just rely on what little BJJ I know for that. :)

One thing I want to Mention. Yang Jwing Ming's books not only show the techniques, but he shows the escapes, so you'll know what to watch out for no matter which end of the lock you're on. The Practical Chin Na book doesn't really show that stuff.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx