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Ford Prefect
04-09-2003, 05:45 AM
http://www.livejournal.com/users/kim_jong_il__

It has just been discovered that Kim Jong Il has his own web journal. Follow the link...

Former castleva
04-09-2003, 11:29 AM
Brilliant.

Budokan
04-09-2003, 01:33 PM
Funny stuff. I have no doubt that's exactly how this little toad thinks and operates.

The Willow Sword
09-12-2003, 08:53 AM
Last Night (9-11). A show on PBS(public broadcasting station) aried a show on NORTH Korea and its perspectives on the Korean war and thier perspectives of us,as they call us," Imperialist Americans".
It was actually a real cool show. They showed some of the gymnastic activities that the young korean female students do for, as they call him,"the beloved general leader".
Some of the gymnastic routines looked like aspects of drunken kung fu(was quite cool to watch). Aside from that it was VERY interesting to listen to some of the people who live in N.Korea and how they see the rest of the world. ESPECIALLY US Americans.
TWS

Starchaser107
09-12-2003, 09:37 AM
nope, didn't see it.


will it replay?

Suntzu
09-12-2003, 11:01 AM
i caught the 1st half hour... i was very interesting... i wonder how uncensored the nationalism was... but i thot the communication was very open and sincere... i was on the floor when the lights came back on and mom was like "**** Americans"... i wonder if their school system has the same problem as ours... they SEEM to include students with the 'mass gymnastics"... where as students here feel left out... but the film DIDN"T showstudents that were not part of the 'mass games'... so they might feel just as alinated *shrug*... its also interesting how they had the 3 classes... and how blue collar workers are seen as being on equal ground with the while collar workers... where as here... if u are a labourer... u are almost a 2nd class citizen... but again they didn't focus on interactions between the classes... so classism might exist... beautiful country... i hope the politicals can figure it out.... hate for it to get bombed back into the stoneage... again...

norther practitioner
09-12-2003, 11:10 AM
I saw some of it, mostly about when they talked about the Korean war, etc... They talked about how even though it was a UN thing, the US bombs are what they hated most and so they blame the US for the devostations of that war.

Starchaser107
09-12-2003, 11:11 AM
Communist countries its hard to say.

I know an equal amout of cubans that love cuba as opposed to those who hate it and want to get away.
Same as ppl that visit there.

then again, it's probably like that everywhere to varying degrees regarless of what political stance. can't please everybody

tnwingtsun
09-12-2003, 11:57 AM
http://www.freenorthkorea.net/archives/freenorthkorea/000321.html

J
09-12-2003, 12:22 PM
Excellent piece of work. I missed the beginning but it was interesting to see access this documentary were given.

Keep in mind that all of the documentary (that I saw) was located in Pyongyang. People in Pyongyang have it good. Try to imagine how the rest of the country, people in the country, are doing. The family mentioned that they had only corn for two weeks. I'm sure the people in the country or poor areas had nothing; hence, the starvation and deaths. Also, North Koreans blame the US for everything because they truly believe that the US began the war. The US devastated their city without provocation in their mind. N. Koreans are so isolated and brain-washed that they do not know any better. It is a sad and dangerous country.

I recommend that people read the book "Two Koreas". It discusses modern North and South Korea.

Cheers,
J

Suntzu
09-12-2003, 01:05 PM
unfortunate when a country has to depend on the outside world to sustain itself... wish i could have watched the rest... PBS last week also did a thing on the World Bank and the IMF's role on globilization and it effect on different countries... and how it all started when international banks backed out of Indonesia, Japan, the Filipians etc... the effect of some African countries defaulting on loans and the way the IMF put conditions on loans to bail them out... which only made conditions worse... sounded like the credit card business... suck for a country that doesn't have control over its own resources...

tnwingtsun
09-12-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by The Willow Sword
Aside from that it was VERY interesting to listen to some of the people who live in N.Korea and how they see the rest of the world. ESPECIALLY US Americans.
TWS


You're one of those whom Lenin Called "Useful Fools"

The Willow Sword
09-12-2003, 02:52 PM
i am not a communist. but i do respect other peoples ways of governing themselves and although i feel that communism is a failed system i still feel as though we as a country of supposed independant people should not mess in the affairs of other countries.

oh and by the way, go suck a dead mans dik you white trash piece of sh!t.:)
love,,TWS.

Brad
09-12-2003, 04:15 PM
but i do respect other peoples ways of governing themselves
Umm, can they really be considered to be governing themselves when it's a dictatorship?

I saw an excerpt of a documentary on North Korea a while ago(either before the war in Iraq or during the initial bombings... don't remember), but North Korea is a pretty creepy place... the traffic cops directing phantom traffic... complete abscense of disabled people in the capital... the brainwashing... the unstable midget tyrant... that place is messed up.

Stranger
09-13-2003, 07:50 AM
i still feel as though we as a country of supposed independant people should not mess in the affairs of other countries. -TWS

Kind of like when the North Koreans stormed across South Korea's border an attacked without being provoked?

Or like the numerous incursions the North's commandoes have made over and around the 38th parallel since the cease fire?

If North Korea resents the Americans and the UN jumping into the war, can we resent the Red Chinese for jumping in? How about the Soviets who encouraged and backed the whole invasion and then sent Soviet pilots (Honcho's) to fight in the war?

The South is where people were allowed to govern themselves originally. Rhee was elected in a UN supervised democratic election. North Korea's dictator was handed control of the North by the Soviets- no election at all.

Any footage of prosperity coming from the North is as much BS propganda as Kijongdong Village, DPRK.

Leimeng
09-13-2003, 10:30 PM
~ North Korea is a sad sad situation. They have a fudgepacking midget dictator who directs worship at himself. They have not got enough food. Some riduculous amount of the economy goes to the war machine of the NKA (I think it is on the order of 65%) The only places with worse human rights records are Afghanistan under that Taliban, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.
~ South Korea with less arible land produces more food. It has less rivers and produces more electricity. Less natural resouces yet is one of the largest manufacturing economies in the world.
~ **** white male christian and jewish Americans, We are the only cause of problems that anyone in the world ever experiances...
~ In reality, North Korea represents the sort or society that the moronic left wing wishes to impose on the United States and the rest of the free world

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

Sin Loi’s Calvanist Martial Arts: My martial skills suck! Your martial skill sucks! We must work harder so we suck less!!!

The Willow Sword
09-14-2003, 01:25 AM
Mess around in the affairs of other countries. WW2 i believe was necessary for we were trying to stop a dictator from taking over the world following in the footsteps of Alexander the great and Napolean etc.
In the case of N.Korea Vs S.korea, i mean we went in there as a political affort to counter what we thought was this great communist threat to american and all of the "free world". But you know Public relations and propaganda can really brainwash a country into thinking that evertime they turn a corner something bad will happen to them,,which was the case after ww2 when the soviets put up thier wall and isolated themselves. i mean really when you think of it the casualties lost in ww2 on the soviet side was twice that of the jewish people being gassed and horribly murdered. is it any wonder that the russians closed off thier borders to everyone. Now dont get me wrong i still and will always contend that communism is a failed system of governemt. i mean the soviet government structure collapsed. N korea seems to be the only communist dictatorship around now. and they ARE isolated from the rest of the world. i mean the documentray showed this. i mean if we lifted sanctions on N korea i dont think they would get along very well with other countries they wouldnt get very far anyway,in my opinion, in trade or commerce. they really have nothing the rest of the world needs.
TWS

Chang Style Novice
09-14-2003, 06:52 AM
Stranger - all true, yet Korea was one nation until Western colonial powers charged in and divided it up arbitratrily. I don't like Jim Il Jong any better than anybody else, but let's not ignore the US' role in creating a situation where he could gain power. If we do feel the need to involve ourselves in the politics of other countries, we should do so with as light, compassionate, and cognizant of history touch as possible.

Stranger
09-14-2003, 07:28 AM
Stranger - all true, yet Korea was one nation until Western colonial powers charged in and divided it up arbitratrily. - CSN

How so? The Soviets occupied the North. They weren't leaving. We couldn't make them leave. We did the best we could- free elections in the part that we held. Western powers didn't divide Korea, they wanted to unify it. The Soviets wanted to unify it too, just under a dictator puppet they installed.

Stranger
09-14-2003, 07:38 AM
i mean if we lifted sanctions on N korea i dont think they would get along very well with other countries they wouldnt get very far anyway,in my opinion, in trade or commerce. they really have nothing the rest of the world needs. - TWS

North Korea has a lot too offer the world apparently in terms of arms, military training, and drugs.

If we lifted sanctions on the country, what would lead us to believe that in an unprecedented move the DPRK govt. would actually let the food, money, and medical supplies reach the population and not just bolster the military/ I mean, even when DPRK had the whole communist bloc trading with them the population was still starving and the productivity of the country was awful. To simplify it, if we gave the DPRK $10 the govt. and military would absorb about $9.99 and the people would get a penny. All we would be doing is strengthenening the true enemy of North and South Korean people- their govt.

That is unless DPRK did some unprecedented political act of kindness to their own people. He11, even when they have some excess money in the North, theyspend it on shallow propaganda efforts. As if any sane person from the South would want to defect to that economic wasteland.

tnwingtsun
09-14-2003, 09:05 PM
I am waiting for CSN to answer your question Stranger,he has no answer because his statment is rhetoric.

Enforcer-
09-28-2004, 05:38 PM
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040928%2F0515512476.htm&sc=1104&flok=NW_5-L2&floc=NW_1-T

funny part is, they are now saying they will only disarm if the US international policies change. Well this is great news. WW3 here we come. Because if 9/11 couldn't make us change our policies, this crazy little ****er pointing nukes at the far east surely won't.

norther practitioner
09-28-2004, 05:47 PM
****

omarthefish
09-28-2004, 06:20 PM
They are not pointed at us.

I seriously doubt they can reach us.

Nukes =/= intercontinental ballistic missiles

intercontinental ballistic missiles =/= intercontinental ballistic missiles that can get through our missle defenses. "Star Wars" may have been a joke when dealing with the then superpower of the Soviet Union but I'm sure we can handle anything the ROK can send out way.

The Willow Sword
09-28-2004, 07:54 PM
HOWEVER it would not stop them from using it somewhere else on our troops and other countries that N korea dislikes.

plus you have to wonder about the "sum of all fears" scenario.

will this be another excuse to go in and start a war before something like this happens to us? if GW is in for another 4 years will he do the same thing as he did in iraq? the cards are quite a bit different when your so called enemy has a few tactical nukes hidden up their sleeve.
it was easy to rush in to iraq but it will not be so easy to rush in to N korea.

i pray that a ww3 does not happen in my lifetime.


PEACE,,,TWS

Stranger
09-28-2004, 08:17 PM
I'm sure we can handle anything the ROK can send out way.



The ROK (Republic of Korea) is South Korea. North Korea is DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea).

Enforcer-
09-28-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by omarthefish
They are not pointed at us.

I seriously doubt they can reach us.

Nukes =/= intercontinental ballistic missiles

intercontinental ballistic missiles =/= intercontinental ballistic missiles that can get through our missle defenses. "Star Wars" may have been a joke when dealing with the then superpower of the Soviet Union but I'm sure we can handle anything the ROK can send out way.

there is no such thing as star wars. It was an idea that never materialized and the government does not want to spend the resources to do it and the rest of the world wont let it.

MonkeySlap Too
09-28-2004, 09:34 PM
Actually, a great deal of useable technology was developed - from theatre-based patriot missle batteries, to the Aegis (I may have the name wrong, Aegis might be older) radar systems, to the missle defense grid going up in Alaska... not to mention killer sattelites... All of these technologies and more fall under the 'Star Wars' umbrella...

Is it perfect? No.

Are we substantially more capable than the North? Yes.

Would the North cave? You bet. Even with the brainwashing, the people are starving, hungry, and desperate after decades of living in a 'workers paradise.'

More likely the PRC is behind this so they can move against Taiwan and seize the Sprately Islands for oil. Korea is just a diversion...

MonkeySlap Too
09-28-2004, 09:36 PM
How, pray tell, would the rest of the world stop us if we wanted to develop it? How arrogant.

David Jamieson
09-29-2004, 05:18 AM
If we look at the laws of cause and effect. And we further understand a thing called ramifications, then Nuclear weapons can not be ruled out as a weapon of war and will likely be used as one, albeit, perhaps in a limited way, and in our lifetimes.

You can't expect someone to be given a gun and to never use it.
You don't honestly think humanity has that much honour do you?

That is laughable, as a species we have lost our way on so many levels. It is pretty much inevitable.

so, if you want to survive a post apocalyptic nuclear event, (which I wouldn't want to survive personally) then dig your bomb shelter now!

I'm guessing that in the current flow of the river of time we have about another 10 years of relatively ok life on the planet left. After that all the mistakes of our forfathers will be long forgotten because we won't have our grandfathers around to tell us about their great war anymore. Kinda like what happend after ww1. we have had a little longer of a respite since ww2, but pandoras box is open and fundamentally, humans are stupid that way.

And now that the non-proliferation treaties have been nixxed by the biggest kid on teh block, what is really there to stop it from happening?

nothing, that's what.

David Jamieson
09-29-2004, 05:20 AM
are you scare yet?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Merryprankster
09-29-2004, 05:49 AM
More likely the PRC is behind this

Highly unlikely. The PRC has even greater interest in a non-nuclear DPRK than we do. A nuclear DPRK is a regional, strategic player. Little flexibility in action, mind you, but a regional player nonetheless.

It's not the missles... (and they do have ICBM's last I checked, besides, the distance between the U.S. and North Korea via great circle route isn't very far, really)... It's the proliferation potential. A.Q. Khan is an amateur compared to the DPRK.

The military threat is totally overblown. Many people think our boy Kim Jong Il is a bit unpredictable and that the DPRK is erratic. Nothing could be further from the truth. He's crazy like a fox specifically because he recognizes his weak position.

Why develop a nuclear program? To get the big boys to play ball with you. It's not going to be a serious military option - it's going to be a bargaining chip at the negotiations table.

Meat Shake
09-29-2004, 06:11 AM
Am I the only one that watches discovery channel here?
Our current missile defense systems are absolutely unbelievable. The only threats really are from attacks within the country. Not something comming from across seas on radar.

Shaolinlueb
09-29-2004, 08:26 AM
doesnt korea have the 2nd/3rd biggest army in the world after china and russia? their troops look a lot more into fighting then the usa ones. plus they have a couple underground tunnels that could move troops into south korea quickly. crazy north koreans. im sure most of the people starving in that country would be welcoming a usa invasion.

MonkeySlap Too
09-29-2004, 08:59 AM
China is engaged in economic reapptoachment with the West. However, traditional tactics show they are likely to use proxies, willing or not, such as N. Korea to distract us from the bigger issues.

The mentality of the politiburo is still very insular and cold war focused. Strategically, China and the U.S. can make good allies and trading partners, however, until China feels it is "no. 1" that probably can't happen.

North Korea is a perfect distraction for the U.S., and it keeps Korea split, and less of a rival in the region.

Talk to any mid-level bueracrat from the PRC. They think we are so funny in how we seem to miss the most obvious strategies...

Proliferation is also a huge factor... Kung Lek I give us less time...

red5angel
09-29-2004, 09:01 AM
Last I heard they couldn't reach american soil, but that could change quickly and in the end it doesn't matter. We have more, and we have bigger.

So here's the plan -

Step One: We Nuke the fukk out of N. Korea. I know, sucks, innocent people get killed and there is some environmental damage.

Step Two: We point the finger at Iran and ask if they want to be next.

Step Three: Regardless of what happens to Iran, we point the finger at several countries in the middle east and we ask if they want a billion martyrs....

Step Four: We stop playing nice with the rest of the world, remind them we can destory the planet about 10 times over - even after nuking the hell out of Korea and possibly Iran - and then we see who get's in line. The rest we make conform to our ideas on what makes a solid society and eventually we end up with one big happy world community.

mortal
09-29-2004, 09:13 AM
Finally someone is using some logic.

TaiChiBob
09-29-2004, 10:33 AM
Greetings..

It is rare that a species becomes completely at odds with its own kind, yet.. here we are... differing cultural mindsets that rationalize the deaths of thousands, millions, or even billions.. in favor of "ideals".. It appears true that the mind that creates the problem is incapable of solving it..


Step Four: We stop playing nice with the rest of the world, remind them we can destory the planet about 10 times over - even after nuking the hell out of Korea and possibly Iran - and then we see who get's in line. The rest we make conform to our ideas on what makes a solid society and eventually we end up with one big happy world community.
Dang, that sounds like every other dictator's plan.. a page from Hitler's playbook.. Yeah, "one big happy world community", oh.. and we'll tell you what "happy" is... and, just like Iraq, our enemies will become invisible, striking from hidden positions and terrorizing every moment.. a conquered and subjugated world will not long tolerate its "masters".. a history lesson.

Be well...

Meat Shake
09-29-2004, 11:36 AM
There always has been terrorism and there always will be. Yin and Yang ideology... They may have the capacity to be more dangerous than ever before, but we also have the capabilities to remain as safe as ever.

red5angel
09-29-2004, 12:05 PM
taichibob - no one has been in the position the US is in now. Hitler, didn't have the ability to destroy the world a few times over. He didn't have the ability to erase entire countries from existance.
As meatshake said, there will always be terrorist and there will always be resistance, but geting the world all on board one boat whether they like it or not would certainly make inroads to making those issues smaller, especially since all the worlds resources would finally be used to fight those types of people, instead of spread out, being used as trump cards and hold outs for more from someone else. Under Step Four, France couldn't denounce action against terrorism, or support it unless of course it's ok'd by the US - but why would it be, we'd own everything? Spain couldn't pull out when their most needed, nor Taiwan. Italy couldn't capitulate to terrorist threats. No, terrorism would have no where to hide, not for long. eventually they'd learn the price is too high to pay, you can fight for freedom all you want but once the people/religion/land your "fighting for" get's bathed in the holy nuclear fire, suddenly your ideals don't have a leg to stand on.

TaiChiBob
09-29-2004, 12:55 PM
Greetings..




No, terrorism would have no where to hide, not for long. eventually they'd learn the price is too high to pay, you can fight for freedom all you want but once the people/religion/land your "fighting for" get's bathed in the holy nuclear fire, suddenly your ideals don't have a leg to stand on.

Look at Iraq.. we really showed them, huh?.. we continue to lose lives daily with no real hope of ending it.. we have lost more in the occupation than in the "war".. so, as we crush the terrorists under the heel of Capitalist Supremacy, the terrorists simply blend in with everyone else.. now, who do you nuke? do you nuke terrorist cells in L.A., in Paris, etc..

You may subugate and even conquer terrorist's homelands, but you cannot kill and idea, a belief.. what you suggest is that our freedoms supercede everyone elses.. and i promise you this is the seed of greater conflict.. Basically, what you are suggesting is no different than any other dictator or power hungry despot.. you have become the bully you once despised.. and, i assure you that the conflicts will come from within.. No, your scenario makes "big brother" look like a sissy, it is an arrogance fed by the power to end life on this planet..

Suppose the Chinese develop an inpenetrable defense system, suppose they develop a weapon more powerful than any previously known.. then, they enforce world communism in the same manner they now practice it.. "One happy world family", right?.. not likely! you and i would resist, go underground, become terrorists, etc.. same shoe, different foot.. forced loyality is temporary, always....

Are we to become that which we have always fought against? "World Dominators"? Are we so right that we can extinguish innocent lives at will..?... yeah, destroy their homeland, degrade an already fragile ecology in favor of our own Imperial Capitalist Supremacy...

Be well..

red5angel
09-29-2004, 01:15 PM
now, who do you nuke?

we haven't nuked anyone yet, and maybe that's the problem. There's a difference on many levels to sending troops in t pacify a region, and sending in nuclear weapons. See, with troops, you get localised damage, sure as the resistance, does what it does, you lose some of them, and some innocent bystanders along the way, but who really cares right? I own a small shop on the corner and either way the people that run this country will let me have it so I don't care.
But wait a minute, suddenly we're not talking just a few innocent bystanders, we're talking all of Iraq and then some. Suddenly the responsibility changes, the scope changes. Suddenly my life is definitely at risk, along with the lives of all my loved ones and everyone else out there. Maybe if I just quietly point out the safe houses and training camps, then I won't have to worry about it?


but you cannot kill and idea, a belief

I'd be interested to find out the beliefs of the native Japanese and the Japanese government before and after Horishima.....



then, they enforce world communism in the same manner they now practice it

so what? Then they are doing the same thing I am proposing, just with a different system. Does it matter? Does a dictatorship sound so bad, really? Especially when it encompasses the entirety of humanity? In every society we have to sacrifice some to live, that's just nature and human nature. We have to give up some freedoms and some would claim that even in the most free society that exists today, we don't have freedom. So who cares if we have to establish a dictatorship? Who really cares if some people are made to get in line. Down the road you get one people, all of us americans, or chinese, or whatever. If we have the power to do it then I say let's get some ballz and do it.


Are we so right that we can extinguish innocent lives at will..?...

what's right? What's wrong? How many lives is it acceptable to take, so you can stop the taking of lives. If today you were shown irrefutable and undoubtable proof that if you killed a certain type of person in society, that peace would reign on earth for a thousand years, where is right or wrong?

MasterKiller
09-29-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
I've gone beyond a narrow minded view of what should be and challeneged myself by looking at other cultures and ways of doing things. *sigh*

Merryprankster
09-29-2004, 01:45 PM
"willing or not,"

A true proxy must be willing. If they are not willing, they are not a proxy - they can serve as a distraction, and in that sense I agree with you. But they are not a proxy by any means, nor would I believe that the PRC helping the DPRK along. I'd need some serious evidence of this since, as I said, the PRC has a vested interest in NOT having a nuclear DPRK.


Talk to any mid-level bueracrat from the PRC. They think we are so funny in how we seem to miss the most obvious strategies...

There's only one thing worse than thinking somebody is always out to get you..., and that's being ignored. My point is that some of these "obvious strategies," are things we may not care about. Perhaps we don't believe it will be a factor. Perhaps we have already taken steps to neutralize said strategies. Perhaps such strategies are 30 years behind and playing catch up and it's not a big deal yet. Quite frankly, the Chinese have always tried to pretend that things are not as they are, as though the phrasing of a concept lends it reality - "Two systems, one China?" In name only.

Anyway, my points were very narrow:

1. The PRC is unlikely to be behind nuclearization of the DPRK.

2. The DPRK does not act erratically.

3. DPRK won't be using nuclear weapons and don't represent a truly bigger threat because of them. They will just use them and the program as bargaining chips at the table. Threat =intention + capability. If the intention is zero, then the capability doesn't matter - just don't **** them off - which is exactly why they get used as a bargaining chip and not a weapon.

red5angel
09-29-2004, 02:39 PM
*sigh*

thanks for underscoring my point from another thread, on this one. not only have I bothered to go beyond the general consensus on this topic, I've determined that there are serious flaws in the way those who think peace will solve things, think. Peace was where we were before WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc.... Peace was where we were before Sept. 11th 2001.
The only way to truly attain peace is for everyone to agree. The only way to make everyone agree is through superior force. Force, solves everything faster then just about anything else. Talking doesn't work, look at the UN, useless, dead weight. how do you make peace with someone who is not interested in living in the same world with you, as you are now?

TaiChiBob
09-29-2004, 02:40 PM
Greetings..


So who cares if we have to establish a dictatorship? Who really cares if some people are made to get in line. Down the road you get one people, all of us americans, or chinese, or whatever. If we have the power to do it then I say let's get some ballz and do it.

Sounds like something you might hear at a Klan rally..

Either you're trolling, or.. you have no self-worth.. are you willing to sacrifice your own life, your loved-ones for this ideal dictatorship.. you are amazingly eager to sacrifice others.. and, in your scenario, if it doesn't matter, some foreign power may nuke us and it would be okay.. just so we have one ruler, "one people"..

"Does it matter? Does a dictatorship sound so bad, really?"

YES, it matters.. unless, of course, you are comfortable doing as you're told, content to be a puppet for fear of conflict.. "those that would surrender freedoms for the promises of security neither recieve nor deserve either".. Thomas Jefferson.

Is life so cheap as to treat it so lightly? The most potent weapon we have is education.. use it wisely.. and, no, red5angel, i don't educate them with fear or vaporizing cultures..

Be well..

GLW
09-29-2004, 02:45 PM
Oh...TaichiBob, I don't know...

A planet full of corpses with the occasional radioactive roach and fly is pretty d@mned peaceful....

Of course, the only ones enjoying it would be the roaches.

red5angel
09-29-2004, 03:00 PM
Sounds like something you might hear at a Klan rally..

That's neither accurate or true. What I'm saying has no basis in hatred, just reality. I'm just acknowledging the thing we all know deep down inside, that there will be no real peace and no real freedom, while we as human beings remain so fractured.



you are amazingly eager to sacrifice others

I'm ok with a little sacrifice period. So has anyone else who has ever fought for what is "right".




unless, of course, you are comfortable doing as you're told, content to be a puppet for fear of conflict..

The most potent weapon we have is education.

ever seen a class of children where on or two kids keep acting up? no ones' learning anything because it's so distracting. So what do you do? You send them away, paddle them, or put them in the corner until they realize that the pattern of behaviour they are perofrming is unacceptable in the local culture, the culture of the classroom. Onc ethey accept that, or are taken out of the picture, the process of education can go forth, but not until that is addressed.
Hitler had an education. So did The Emporer of Japan. Is the education you recieved in school as accurate as it was back then, today? I've learned all sorts of "facts" and figures tha I come to find later on aren't what I was told way back then, so where's the wisdom and the education?

Doing what your told is a bad thing? You and I do what we're told every day. We drive on the right side of the road, we come to work and we do our work how we're told to do it. You're fooling yourself if you don't think your life is practically being led for you right now anyway. Your freedom is just an illusion. It's the Matrix man, you get the illusion of hapiness, and so you get in line anyway. That's all you need, the illusion, then you'll do what your told.

Of course there would always be growing pains. You and I are trained to want what we want for ourselves, but our children and their children will learn to operate within the parameters of the dictatorship, learn to find happiness in it. Then where's the wrong?

as for my self worth? I know exactly what it is, it's the same as it is for anyone else at any given time.

red5angel
09-29-2004, 03:06 PM
it's all about ego and self right now. ever seen Logan's Run? What's wrong with killing people before they become a burden on the rest of society? You miss then a little, and they think it sucks to have to go out, but generally speaking, it's for the good of the people in general.
The same with people who want to make war. Why not kill them? They just want what you want anyway, they want you to be just like them. They want you to behave just like they do. So it runs to only the strong sruvive. That's the only real universal truth. Our world is so fukked up right now because we've allowed and created an environment where the weak have been allowed to breed in abundance. Not only that but some of the weakest now lead our governments. Is Geroge Bush Jr. weak? You'd like to think so wouldn't you, but he's risen to the top, he's getting what he wants. that's not weakness, that's uncommon strength. Something we don't see a whole lot anymore because our society as a whole supports the weak out of misplaced sentimentality and twisted morality that claims everyone has the "right" to life. I don't hear the lions or the tigers talking about how the slowest antelope have the right to life.

omarthefish
09-29-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Stranger
The ROK (Republic of Korea) is South Korea. North Korea is DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea).

woops. Thanks.

omarthefish
09-29-2004, 04:18 PM
I have to go to work now so I don't have time to finish the thread but I just had to point out this little gem that made me laugh. (my humour has always been a bit black.)


Originally posted by red5angel
[B]we haven't nuked anyone yet, and maybe that's the problem.

Yes we have. Twice.

David Jamieson
09-29-2004, 04:44 PM
doesnt korea have the 2nd/3rd biggest army in the world after china and russia?

large armies don't mean squat except in terms of occupational forces.

all a large army is, is lots of cannon fodder. Or missile fodder these days. who cares how many troops are on the ground in teh thick of battle. It only matters afterwards when you have to secure the buildings you are occupying.

You know, like in Iraq where the ground forces wait for the jets to finish kerblasting everything then the ground forces go in and become targets for the remaining suicide bombers and angry rock throwing civ kids.

Merryprankster
09-29-2004, 08:06 PM
Doing what your told is a bad thing? You and I do what we're told every day. We drive on the right side of the road, we come to work and we do our work how we're told to do it. You're fooling yourself if you don't think your life is practically being led for you right now anyway. Your freedom is just an illusion. It's the Matrix man, you get the illusion of hapiness, and so you get in line anyway. That's all you need, the illusion, then you'll do what your told.

Boundaries, my friend, set you free. It's not an illusion - it's just a quirk of humanity.

TaiChiBob
09-30-2004, 04:58 AM
Greetings..

If you believe that the threat of, or the use of, supreme power will make things right.. you are wrong.. under any dictatorship, even a benevolent one, people must have the hope of self determination.. motivation and incentive decay under forced rule..

we drive on the correct side of the road to preserve harmony of traffic flow (common sense).. we do many things that are codified out of a sense of order and social agreement.. and, we can change those agreements by social consensus.. remove the ability of self-determination and resistance will not be far behind.. only in that scenario, it will be internal.. no formal enemy.. What you suggest is a police state on a global scale.. and YES, it does have Klan overtones, the Klan doesn't see it as hate, they see it as a "cleansing", making the world a better place..

Total power corrupts totally.. how soon till this utopian police state begins to exterminate other less desirable elements of society.. the poor, the elderly, the sick, etc..

So it runs to only the strong sruvive. That's the only real universal truth. Our world is so fukked up right now because we've allowed and created an environment where the weak have been allowed to breed in abundance. That quote has probably been repeated at more Klan rallies than not. Everyone has the right to exist. Each has the right to their opinion. But, not each opinion has the right to be come public policy..

Whew!! either you're trolling.. or too demented to be taken seriously.. this thought process is born of fear and insecurity, a complete lack of spiritual development.. it considers life as a commodity to be bargained, not a unique gift of the universe.. Sure, it makes sense that St. Bush would inspire such awe and respect.. a means to a self-serving end..

"That's the only real universal truth.".. a simply absurd statement, no further commentary required..

In this world, today.. it greives me to think someone with sufficient intellect to use a computer can spew such nonsense.. it is inflamatory and contrary to the spirit of humanity..

Be well..

David Jamieson
09-30-2004, 06:02 AM
i love that name "democratic peoples republic" lol.

we picked up 40 something of their countrymen as they scrambled over our embassy fence in Beijing yesterday.

dunno if you americans got that in your news, i'm pretty certain it won't make the news in china.

anyway, they are starving in north korea, they have nothing to eat. they have been in such a sticky wicket for so long with the little madman at the helm they haven't had normalized relations with anyone but china for more than 40 years.

red5- I think you think waaaaaaayyy to much about american military power. America could be crushed just like any other country could be crushed. BY the way, there are terrorist organizations, living, functioning and doing fund raising in america right now as I type this. The same could be said for any nation with relatively good freedoms.

Don't fool yourself with propaganda that america is the great superpower and what not, they are not. There are other nuclear powers on the planet and frankly, some of these guys are not to be fukked with to put it bluntly.

If so, why didn't the US invade pakistan? Afterall that and Saudi arabia is the biggest stronghold of Al Qaeda in many scenarios.

I'll give you a hint, "freaking holocaust", that's why.

Americas enemies are more often than not right inside her own gates you better believe it. And, to top it all off, even the wasps of some factions are enemies of the state. I give you the Tim McVies of the world of which there are many more like him walking down the next aisle in walmart right now.

It is dangerous to be so simplistic about things.

resources on this planet are going to dry up eventually. the people who waste the most are in the west. When waste is made, others starve. When people starve, they rebel and rise up and strike.

Who is in the right then?


food for thought

red5angel
09-30-2004, 07:48 AM
omarthefish - correct but onlypartially, those were tiny bombs, barely nuclear. Only a few tens' of thousands were killed and it made the point.


even a benevolent one, people must have the hope of self determination.

They just need the illusion of self determination. What if I were to tell you that right now the voting populace in america didn't determine who was president. That it was 12 guys in a room, every four years that determined who would lead the country? Pacifying the masses is easy.




That quote has probably been repeated at more Klan rallies than not.

so, how many clan rallies have you been to exactly?


this thought process is born of fear and insecurity, a complete lack of spiritual development


I completely disagree, as a matter of fact I'd challenge you and say that it's exactly the OPPOSITE. That one who is comfortable with these ideas has gone past fear and insecurity. Remember, I didn't say it had to be my "people" who carried out those four steps, only that we are in the best position to do it at the moment. To me, it doesn't matter who does it. Beyond my own desire for self preservation, it doesn't even matter if I benefit or not.
Supposed "spiritual" developement is anochronistic and unnecessary now that science has taken the lead in explaining our world for us. We no longer need to create something mystical and magical to understand the ways of the world around us.



"That's the only real universal truth.".. a simply absurd statement, no further commentary required..

No commentary can be made. It can't be refuted. The lion and the sheep don't refute who is supreme. The cheetah and the antelope don't argue over what is and what is not right. The first primte or psuedo primate to pick up a stick and beat to death another primate, never asked if he deserved it or not.


it is inflamatory and contrary to the spirit of humanity..

Hardly, human beings are naturally xenophobic and clannish. We see it on all levels of our society. Mentally we sometimes try to fight that but even the punk rocker sitting on the curb panhandling looks just like every other punk rocker he hangs out with. Humans are predators and they are territorial. However our brains have pushed our territory into the intellectual as well and so we fight over religion and ideas like democracy and so called freedom.


I think you think waaaaaaayyy to much about american military power.

I'm not underestimating the effect of several thousand megatons of nuclear explosives.


There are other nuclear powers on the planet and frankly, some of these guys are not to be fukked with to put it bluntly.

Not really. So what they could hit a couple of our major cities or bases. There's not a territory on the face of this planet that we couldn't glass in the blink of an eye. No on else can do that but possibly the soviet union, and my guess is they'd be on board anyway.


I'll give you a hint, "freaking holocaust", that's why.

Oh I know why things like that haven't happened yet, but in my 4 step plan, we take the risk. Worst comes to worst we hit the reset button and start the whole process over. Who knows, maybe this time around, if Taichibob is correct andhumans are inherently good people, we'll get it right and learn to get a long.


the people who waste the most are in the west.

That's actually a poor argument. Like saying the people who waste the most gas are those that drive.

omarthefish
09-30-2004, 05:22 PM
They were the biggest bombs the human race had ever seen dropped on people by margins hard to even imagine.


Actually, they still hold that distinction. We have in the entire course of human history never seen anything even close to such massive destruction in such short time. More lives may have been lost in the firebombing of Berilin but that was over a period of time and furthermore...that didn't have any effect on the willingness of mad *******s like Saddam to do their thing either.

The size and scope of those "tiny" atomic bombs is beyond the ability of most people to even accurately imagine. What makes you think dropping a still bigger bomb somehwere will change anything. It's like the difference between 10000000000000000 and 10000000000000000000 dollars in 1 dollar bills. A factor of 1000 but beyong a certain point, in realistic emotional terms, it is simple "a lot". Same for A-bombs. Do you have a tangible conrete experientially based ideo of how much a megaton of explosive power is? How about radiation sickness? Do you personally know what it is like?

KC Elbows
09-30-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
it's all about ego and self right now. ever seen Logan's Run? What's wrong with killing people before they become a burden on the rest of society? You miss then a little, and they think it sucks to have to go out, but generally speaking, it's for the good of the people in general.
The same with people who want to make war. Why not kill them? They just want what you want anyway, they want you to be just like them. They want you to behave just like they do. So it runs to only the strong sruvive. That's the only real universal truth. Our world is so fukked up right now because we've allowed and created an environment where the weak have been allowed to breed in abundance. Not only that but some of the weakest now lead our governments. Is Geroge Bush Jr. weak? You'd like to think so wouldn't you, but he's risen to the top, he's getting what he wants. that's not weakness, that's uncommon strength. Something we don't see a whole lot anymore because our society as a whole supports the weak out of misplaced sentimentality and twisted morality that claims everyone has the "right" to life. I don't hear the lions or the tigers talking about how the slowest antelope have the right to life.

You are inferring that social darwinism as proposed by industrialists of Darwin's time is right, and that Darwin is wrong. Darwin was not suggesting that strength was the sole determining factor- the strongest working element of a system survived within that species. As such, there are many more gazelles than there are lions, and the gazelle would probably persist if there were no lions whatsoever, expecially considering that the gazelle poses less threat to humans than lions. Therefore, the gazelle probably has superior survival traits for the world it lives in than the lion.

The other thing you are missing is that times of contention force migrations and lead to races for more resources. The fight for the new world is more likely to be the model for human expansion outward from earth than would some one world government's utopian plan. Note that the space race slowed dramatically once the soviet union was out of it. You propose a recipe for stagnation based on a universal truth that is neither universal or true, at least according to Darwin. A quick glance at your corgi would confirm that.

There is also a key difference between desirable traits and strength. Stephen Hawkings has more direct impact than most, but without a great many consumers taking part in the economy, that place might not be that important. Even the destitute have their place, especially in America; there are lessons regarding coming from nothing that are important to the US culture, and you cannot come from nothing without there being a populace who manages to make nothing of something, imo. By the same token, the idle rich eventually guarantee their own fall and provide a sure opening for new blood in the upper class, endlessly. This isn't the same as extinction, of course, but just changing strata.

I'm not suggesting moral relativism here, in a moral sense there is right and wrong, etc. However, I try to keep in mind that if you stamp out the gene that gives sickle cell anemia, you stamp out resistance to malaria. There are many things that are only there to kill us and make room, and that is a desirable trait, not undesirable. Including the need to seize power endlessly, as you suggest, because it almost guarantees that power will not be centralized for long, because it creates more resistance than it can ever destroy, over an area too great to police, and soon pragmatists from the ruling state will see it as a pipe dream, and get what profit out of the venture they can before it goes bust, which hastens the cycle, since then, any illusion of the intentions of the ruler is broken.

As for George W. Bush being strong, your argument makes all presidents uncommonly strong by virtue of being presidents, a point I can't agree with. There are cases of being in the right place at the right time without the right talent(Ford, Carter), and there are cases of being of the priveledged class with no real opposition in place(GWB). There is a real case to be made that his culture's influence on him, meaning the GOP and the neo-conservatives and Iran-Contra folk that he is surrounded by, is actually stronger than him, and that he is not the driving force of his decisions at all, but that his cultural dogma is, except on spending, obviously.

scotty1
10-01-2004, 03:19 AM
So to sum up Red5, your ideas are completely loopy.

Looper! :D

blooming lotus
10-01-2004, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer-
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040928%2F0515512476.htm&sc=1104&flok=NW_5-L2&floc=NW_1-T

funny part is, they are now saying they will only disarm if the US international policies change. Well this is great news. WW3 here we come. Because if 9/11 couldn't make us change our policies, this crazy little ****er pointing nukes at the far east surely won't.

I haven't read most of the thread , so my bad if repeating previous comments.

That there is just straight on scary, pending where you're reading this from!!! Already The North Korea / US war / conflict brews , and considering the US and ally defence budget and costs expected for the nxt however long, and the fact that several yrs back Nth Korea had over 200 000 troops, we couldn't defend on savings nor numbers back then.................. enjoy each day as it comes.........

Blooming Lotus

David Jamieson
10-01-2004, 04:53 AM
red-

you are so way out standing in the field i have no idea what to say to you.

Icewater
10-01-2004, 05:05 AM
Bah, China's problem.

blooming lotus
10-01-2004, 05:11 AM
actuually and korea have been making a little happy -chat recently so vote wisely ha

omarthefish
10-01-2004, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by KC Elbows
You are inferring that social darwinism as proposed by industrialists of Darwin's time is right, and that Darwin is wrong. ....

****.

Nice post.

red5angel
10-01-2004, 07:53 AM
You are inferring that social darwinism as proposed by industrialists of Darwin's time is right, and that Darwin is wrong.

nope.




You propose a recipe for stagnation based on a universal truth that is neither universal or true, at least according to Darwin.

That's not true either. Can you name one instance where it wasn't true?


I'm not suggesting moral relativism here, in a moral sense there is right and wrong, etc. However, I try to keep in mind that if you stamp out the gene that gives sickle cell anemia, you stamp out resistance to malaria. There are many things that are only there to kill us and make room, and that is a desirable trait, not undesirable. Including the need to seize power endlessly, as you suggest, because it almost guarantees that power will not be centralized for long, because it creates more resistance than it can ever destroy, over an area too great to police, and soon pragmatists from the ruling state will see it as a pipe dream, and get what profit out of the venture they can before it goes bust, which hastens the cycle, since then, any illusion of the intentions of the ruler is broken.

agreed, it's a never ending cycle and I suggest that we stop fighting that cycle and hop on whole heartedly. America can't last forever but it can last a long time if it's enemies no longer exist or resist.


As for George W. Bush being strong, your argument makes all presidents uncommonly strong by virtue of being presidents

whether strong inherently or strong because you lead a strong party, it's still strength. You don't accidently get made president and it's silly even to claim that, even with the worst of presidents. My argument is that politically, even the worst president is strong because he has made it that far. It's fanciful and wishful thinking to believe that it can happen by accident or through who you know alone. That's like claiming that some of the worlds top athletes get to the olympics only because of who they know.

The desire for peace is just fearful and paranoid. We desire peace "naturally" oinly because of our deep desire for self preservation. It is however amazing that even with that said, the desire to propgate the species can over ride that instinct. In fact, we are able to over come that instinct only with the instinct to fight, whether it be fighting to save someones life, or fighting to destroy our enemies. I say we feed that insticnt to fight, push beyond just self preservation and look at what is best for the race as a whole. One people, united, would certainly make things easier. We have the ability we just dont' have the will as a nation. Even if a leader stepped up who was willing to take the steps need to unite the world, my four step plan, it could never happen because of the fearfulness that stil sits at the pit of your stomach, that, what if fear. What if I'm killed or drafted then killed or someone else nukes my home and I'm killed. It's not about saving OTHER people, it's about saving ourselves that leads us to protest war and conflict. We could own this planet if we so chose, we could abolish conflict on a larger scale - you'll always have conflict on a smaller scale, but if it's state supported then you watch and see how resistance fades away.

MasterKiller
10-01-2004, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
America can't last forever but it can last a long time if it's enemies no longer exist or resist. Without an external enemy to focus on, we would inevitably turn on ourselves. A common enemy breeds unity between those who would otherwise be opposed.

red5angel
10-01-2004, 07:57 AM
state approved violence. All human beings ar elooking for is a source for conflict. Instead of resisting it, you feed it to them.

TaiChiBob
10-01-2004, 08:38 AM
Greetings..


I say we feed that insticnt to fight, push beyond just self preservation and look at what is best for the race as a whole. One people, united, would certainly make things easier. We have the ability we just dont' have the will as a nation. Even if a leader stepped up who was willing to take the steps need to unite the world, my four step plan, it could never happen because of the fearfulness that stil sits at the pit of your stomach, that, what if fear. What if I'm killed or drafted then killed or someone else nukes my home and I'm killed. It's not about saving OTHER people, it's about saving ourselves that leads us to protest war and conflict. We could own this planet if we so chose, we could abolish conflict on a larger scale - you'll always have conflict on a smaller scale, but if it's state supported then you watch and see how resistance fades away.

The "fear" is that our action will cause a reaction.. the "fear" that other nuclear powers would respond out of "fear".. we enjoy a shaky peace due to MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction)..

The scenario cited above is asserted from a position of power.. if you were somewhere in Iraq hoping for relief from oppression by the USA only to to be vaporized by your supposed salvation, lends no credence to leadership..


The desire for peace is just fearful and paranoid.
No, it a desire to prosper apart from fear.. War and violence is evidence of fear, destroy that which you fear.. it's beginning to sound like red5angel simply likes war and conflict.. a fear that in a peaceful society his nature would be a liability.. Rule by force and fear has never sustained a government..


I say we feed that insticnt to fight, push beyond just self preservation and look at what is best for the race as a whole.
Sure, unless that leads to the end of life on this planet.. an option that is very real.. in the "fearful" reaction to a policy that dispicable, desperation could easily lead people to unleash armaggedon... you know, the ultimate reset button..

Again, i suggest this a well thought-out troll, in fact, a well executed troll.. Being that articulate, red5angel cannot really suggest such nonsense.. that would contradict Darwin's theory..

Early species development relied on strength.. in this era, though, it is intellect and wisdom that assure survival..

Be well..

red5angel
10-01-2004, 09:02 AM
The "fear" is that our action will cause a reaction

right, what I was saying.




The scenario cited above is asserted from a position of power

exactly, in the long term it doesn't matter if you're in power or not, only that those in power have the ability to enact the four step plan.


War and violence is evidence of fear, destroy that which you fear.

That's not entirely true. In this case it's not about feare so much as facing facts and acting on those facts. Of course war can be caused by fear, I'm not debating that, but not in this case.


Early species development relied on strength.. in this era, though, it is intellect and wisdom that assure survival..

Those are still just other ways of being strong. By strenth I don't literally mean how much you can lift or how long your body will let you fight. I mostly mean willpower more then anything else, or the will to do whatever it takes to get things done.

MasterKiller
10-01-2004, 12:19 PM
http://www.stedoyle.com/funny6/getabrain.jpg

red5angel
10-01-2004, 12:25 PM
"It's about survival of the species boys and girls..."

omarthefish
10-01-2004, 02:16 PM
I'm guessing red is either a mason, OTO or some sort of proto-neo-natzi.

That's just where his stated beliefs can be reflected most clearly.

KC Elbows
10-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by red5angel


That's not true either. Can you name one instance where it wasn't true?



I already did. Your corgi.

Darwin was very opposed to social darwinism as it was presented because it was horribly misinformed, it neglected the larger ecosystem and its relevance on the process. Fittest does not mean strongest. It means needing only what the system has to give and giving exactly what the system needs(or, more aptly, giving a surplus that can be of use). The system does not need an unchecked industrial and economic juggernaut, and gains nothing from it that it needs.

You could make the case that economic prosperity creates a place for your corgi, but in reality your corgi is still a tiny, frail little tax on the ecosystem. It culls the ranks of no species, and nothing culls it's ranks. Your corgi is the devil.

If you're going to use darwinism to prove your point, your current argument doesn't make use of that. You are mixing up Darwinism and social darwinism. One is a valid, if disputed concept, the other, completely unsupported.

And to further point out a case where the strongest didn't survive, although the romans faced setbacks from a variety of strong adversaries, in the end, they fell under the weight of empire, because such empire was not the fittest model for that time, and while no people stamped out the romans to the last man, it is important to note that the word Italian comes from the Italien people, who were not the romans.

Empire is not always the prudent course, sometimes it is the least fit course. And those who pursued world empires have never achieved them, even when the known world was a much smaller thing.

Enforcer-
10-01-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Actually, a great deal of useable technology was developed - from theatre-based patriot missle batteries, to the Aegis (I may have the name wrong, Aegis might be older) radar systems, to the missle defense grid going up in Alaska... not to mention killer sattelites... All of these technologies and more fall under the 'Star Wars' umbrella...

Is it perfect? No.

Are we substantially more capable than the North? Yes.

Would the North cave? You bet. Even with the brainwashing, the people are starving, hungry, and desperate after decades of living in a 'workers paradise.'

More likely the PRC is behind this so they can move against Taiwan and seize the Sprately Islands for oil. Korea is just a diversion...

The u.S doesn't have lasers that will fire form satelites and destroy nukes. Laster technology for weapons hasnt even been developed yet at least on paper. and nothing could stop nukes going as fast as they do in mid air. They cant evens top a meteroid if it was coming our way and was about to destroy earth.

red5angel
10-04-2004, 07:50 AM
I'm guessing red is either a mason, OTO or some sort of proto-neo-natzi.

No, both you and Taichibob are incorrect in your assumption that my plan has anything to do with nazis, the klan or any other hate group. In both cases you're talking about groups that do not like or approve of others, not like themselves. I only propose that we as americans carry out my four step plan because we have the ability to do so. If china had a better potential, then let them do it. If Australia had a better chance at it, then let them do it. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with hate unless you count the hate I feel for the way we allow war to continue whiule having the power to do something about it once and for all.

red5angel
10-04-2004, 07:56 AM
KC - my corgi would destroy you, you fear it's wrath, I know you do, I can smell it.


The system does not need an unchecked industrial and economic juggernaut, and gains nothing from it that it needs.

what is this "system" you speak of?


You are mixing up Darwinism and social darwinism. One is a valid, if disputed concept, the other, completely unsupported.

completely unsupported by Darwin, but that doesn't make it any less true.

The romans fell because they became weak. They were no longer the strong empire they once were and for that, they were destroyed. The Roman empire is a perfect example of what I'm saying. It lost the ability to survive in a brutal world, and so it fell. Before thta, it used FORCE to unite peoples and countries that before that time, had never been united on such a scale. It turns out it DOES work, if it's done right. The Mongols, did it, The Qin did it.
Of course all things must come to an end. I don't take the example that all these empires eventually fell as proof it doesn't work. Nothng lasts, but we could be in a position to make a single world nation last long enough for people to realize it's importance to our survival.....

SimonM
10-04-2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by red5angel

So here's the plan -

Step One: We Nuke the fukk out of N. Korea. I know, sucks, innocent people get killed and there is some environmental damage.


Step Two: Congradulations, you just caused WWIII moron. If I have to ditch everything and head for Northern Manitoba to avoid fallout from your stupid nuclear weapons I am going to be REALLY ****ED.

red5angel
10-04-2004, 08:33 AM
very little chance of an actual "war" or real exchange of any sort in this case. Even though we would pull the trigger, there are very few people out there willing to pull the trigger as well, why? Because they can't match us for sheer destructive force.
Besides, that is sort of the failsafe see. If it does start WWIII and we all get taken out, ok. The reset button ahs been pushed, let's cross our fingers they get it right this time.

Kaitain(UK)
10-04-2004, 08:46 AM
Yeah, cos you're making such a success of Iraq, the world should be a piece of ****.

red5angel
10-04-2004, 09:15 AM
was I suddenly put in charge of Iraq? I'm pretty sure I have had nothing to do with it in anyway.

See, if it were me, We would have nuked Afghanistan. Why? Because all the people we wanted were there anyway. We may not have got them on the first strike, but the radiation would surely have killed them eventually. Then we could have just skipped Korea, and moved on to Step 2.

SimonM
10-04-2004, 10:09 AM
The "people you wanted" were holed up in mountain hideouts. You would have had to nuke pretty much the whole (huge) country. That many nukes would spell disaster for the ecosystem of Pakistan and India - they would either start lobbing nukes at each other or at you. If you had made use of Nukes in Afghanistan, we would probably be cosying up to a nice nuclear winter for the next decade or so right now.

I know that stupid people like the pretty lights and big noises but really, just buy some fireworks instead.

red5angel
10-04-2004, 10:26 AM
Well, no matter who you nuke, you're going to cause problems for other people, but that is how far you go to show resolve. By doing so you're saying "Look, here is how serious we are about it, either you start listening to us, or we all go."

Once everyone get's on board your first step is to help out the countries who got inadvertantly exposed to your nuking of chosen target. Then you're taking another step to say, "look how serious we are about peace? Now we're trying to fix the problems we had to cause to get your attentions."

but you know what they sa, you have to break a few eggs to baek a cake.

SimonM
10-04-2004, 03:07 PM
So you think that destroying all of the near east is a small price to pay for killing Ossama Bin Ladin because that is what "Nuking Afghanistan" would be. At MINIMUM, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Northern India, part of Southern Russia, part of Eastern Iran and part of Western China would be rendered radioactive and not safe for human habitation for the next ten thousand years. And you are still making the foolish assumption that none of those countries (all of which have nukes except for Iran and Afghanistan) would retaliate against the country that killed them. Because that is what a nuclear strike against the entirety of rural
Afghanistan would do.

Red5Angel, you are a fool.

red5angel
10-04-2004, 03:28 PM
nope, I think it's a small price to pay for several centuries of peace and quiet. You have to read the Four Step Plan on the first page of this thread to understand.....










(I don't seem to get along with canadians very well do I?)

SimonM
10-04-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
nope, I think it's a small price to pay for several centuries of peace and quiet. You have to read the Four Step Plan on the first page of this thread to understand.....


I read your four step plan. The only word to describe it was lunacy. Or mabey foolishness, I can't decide.

And you are the only person I have seen who calls nuclear winter "several centuries of peace and quiet". I mean, do you know what the environmental effect of modern nuclear weapons are? Most of them make Hiroshima look like a christmas cracker. All they leave is radioactive wasteland - everywhere the fallout falls. Now Afghanistan is 652,000 square Kilometers. Think about the number of nukes that it would take to blast all of it's outback. You would be luck if Fallout didn't reach the states!

MoreMisfortune
10-04-2004, 06:13 PM
Redangel, this hate of yours clearly demonstrates humanity still has a lot to learn before calling itself "inteligent". Please re-think your positions about the value of other peoples lives and the enviroment too.

Merryprankster
10-04-2004, 07:43 PM
Red is ****ing with you all.

It's funny though. Mostly because I get a good chuckle out of watching the whackadoos on here sputter in righteous indignation. I'm expecting the internet version of an apoplectic fit complete with spitting and seizure sometime in the immediate future.

I'm not sure what's funnier. Red's trolling or the idea that people are taking it seriously.

ZIM
10-04-2004, 08:45 PM
"No matter how bad things are, there are always survivors"

LMAO

Oh, & R5A-you wanted to know how the Japanese thought after the bombs. (http://www.boomerbible.com/nip25.html)

ZIM
10-04-2004, 08:59 PM
Hey...Kerry just 'clarified' his 'global test' remark:

"But I can do a better job of protecting America's security because the test that I was talking about was a test of legitimacy, not just in the globe, but elsewhere.
link (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/04/kerry.global/index.html)

Now we have to ask the permission of the Ferengi & Vulcans before we can do anything...

...is there anyone he won't pander to? :rolleyes:

KC Elbows
10-04-2004, 09:48 PM
Of course he's trolling. There is no other way to look at anyone who believes in the corgi as anything but an alternate to pork, chicken, or shrimp moo shu.

red5angel
10-05-2004, 07:32 AM
Now Afghanistan is 652,000 square Kilometers. Think about the number of nukes that it would take to blast all of it's outback. You would be luck if Fallout didn't reach the states!

I don't mean to literally blanket the country in nuclear fire, although that might be a nice thought for some extremists. You hit it enough, so that the rest of the country is bathed in nuclear fallout, and just about nobody survives., Including those we went into afghanistan to get. A missed oppurtunity.

As for nuclear winter being peace and quiet, I guess it is in it's own way. I don't believe the scientist are all that accurate on nuclear winter to begin with but that is neither here nor there since if we made an all out nuclear strike it wouldn't really matter hwat the scientists claim.
However, I don't mind the idea of hitting the reset button. What's wrong with it, except of course your desire for self preservation? As much as we'd like to believe it, we can't destroy the planet, we don't have that capability. We could certainly drastically alter it, but never destroy it, mother nature has plans for that. That's certainly a nother argument for the possibility of all out nuclear war if no one wants to jump on board wit the four step plan. Even Mother Nature hits the reset button from time to time. Things get stagnant, you don't have to be a dictatorship for things to get dull and stagnant.


Redangel, this hate of yours clearly demonstrates humanity still has a lot to learn before calling itself "inteligent". Please re-think your positions about the value of other peoples lives and the enviroment too.

Where's the hate moremisfortune? I don't hate anyone, I'm not even insisting we nuke any one particular person/place/religion. What I am saying is that we pick the right target to strongly underscore out point that we are no longer going to take anyone's crap, and if you don't like it, we're serious about making you suffer the same fate.
I'm not even saying it HAS to be the US that takes the first step, all I'm saying is that currently we are in the best position to. Sure it would suck if I turned out to be the target of Step One, but ok, what do I really matter when it comes to the survival of the species? Not a whole lot. And that leads me to the value of life....what is it? How much is a human life worth exactly moremisfortune? Where do you draw the line and trade it for the lives of many many more? When it all will most likley get wiped out in the future anyway, or change so drastically over time you woudlnt' be able to recognize it from yourself, how much is it actually worth and what does it really mean anyway? Atleast for now we can live thin relative peace if we choose to follow the plan.

KC - on my way back up from florida next weekend I may have to stop by KC to let the Corgi of Death loose, just to prove how mean those short sunsofbiznatches are....

MoreMisfortune
10-05-2004, 09:34 AM
Redangle, although your name is of angelical nature, I still dont think you have seen your mistakes. Please re-think your positions again... this time try to visualize the peaceful way how the butterflies fly from flower to flower and how their actions are completely in tune with the energy from the enviroment. :)

What else, I think this lyrics could help you on your new quest now, ok? :)


Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

rubthebuddha
10-05-2004, 09:41 AM
I'm not sure what's funnier. Red's trolling or the idea that people are taking it seriously. the latter. if it was just one person, red would be funnier, but so many people have been fishhooked by this one that red is quickly losing ground.

red5angel
10-05-2004, 10:06 AM
moremisfortune -

A - I'm not a big John Lennon fan. I can't say I'm glad he's dead, but I can say I'm glad he's not making music anymore. Now if only Yoko would follow suit.

B - Angels were both harbingers of great pain and sorrow, punishment as it were, and bringers of light and peace. My screen name then becomes extremely appropriate since I say that you cannot get the latterm, without the former.

C - what is all this mystical energy you are talking about? Until I see irrefutable and scientifically tested proof, I'm going to live in the world I can see, touch, feel and understand. Butterflies fly from flower to flower on wings developed through evolution, of course it's in tune with nature, nature created it.

I still have yet to hear one solid argument for why my Four Step Plan could not work. I've heard that dictatorships grow stagnant and foment rebellion. That's not completely true and pointed at the Roman Empire and several other vast kingdoms that came to unite large areas of peoples by force. I even went so far as to admit it wouldn't be a permanent situtaion, because nothing ever is.
Rebellion can be curbed by catering to the human need for violence. You'd be surprised to see what might happen if war became less about hatred and more about entertainment. Our Psyche's are practicaly there anyway.

You want to avoid war? You can't take away the reasons for war, you never will. Human's like to fight, they like to band together against a common enemy and they like to not like things that are different from them.
You can however take away the ability to fight. However, people aren't going to give up there ability to fight, just ask the NRA. So what do you do? You have to take it, and you have to use force to do so. In this case you have to make a show of force, the likes of which have never been seen before and you have to convince the rest of the world you're very serious about it, you're not bluffing. Suddenly that instinct to survive takes over and people start to get in line with your way of thinking. A few bad eggs have to be disposed of, of course. By "bad" I don't mean evil or wrong, I just mean those who want to resist your bid for change. They're no more right then you are, they just don't have the ability to back it all up like you do. You're holding a 4 Aces and your SHOWING it ti all the people on the other side of the table.
Once that happens you will have resistance, it's human nature to resist. But two things begin to happen, first, younger generations come in. For lack of a better word, they are indoctrinated and acclimated to your way of thinking and doing things, they find it comfortable and so are less likely to rebel against your vision.
For those who will resist, and there will always be resistance, you can turn to violence, run by the state. Hold a lottery to see how many rebels will get killed tonight. Capture them, put them on teams and make them kill each other for survival. Barbaric? Maybe, but it appeals to the people in general and it distracts them from any other ideals that may come along.
Worry about the military you say? Nope, not if they are in charge, then you have nothing to really worry about. Why would they want to shake things up when they are the people at the top? Of course you may get military coups, things like that, but there are ways to set up a system so it can survive and continue either way.
It's the perfect plan as long as you can give up the idea of self, and the ideas of right and wrong. Those ideas can all be remade and rebuilt, or re-adjusted. Right and wrong are subjective. They don't exist except how we define them.

MoreMisfortune
10-05-2004, 10:12 AM
Redangle, I am sorry but you are mistaken again... Angels are beings of light and love, the only who is not has become Satan, this is the real story of angels that has not been modified to fit any particular belief :)
I think I should give you more time to think about how every peaceful thing in live is in complete syncrony of non-violence and non-destruction my friend :)
Please think about how the beauty of nature is on construction (love) and not on destruction (hate), ok? Once you done all this re-thinking again you will feel refreshed... but please do not rush... please understand its a long process of overcoming the anger that is built up through the years between you... might take days and nights until you finally see that wich is the overwelming force of peace :)
Have good days on your task, remember to focus on good things.

Merryprankster
10-05-2004, 10:18 AM
Angels are beings of light and love

Ah. I see somebody has bought into feelgoodism.

You need to think about what an Angel IS before you say things like this.

red5angel
10-05-2004, 10:18 AM
you'll have to do more researchinto angels and what they are all about. They aren't good or evil really, they just are. They are supposed to do a lot for God, including bringing his wrath.

Also, you have to keep in mind that reality is a cycle, and a series of cycles, creation....and destruction. You can't have one without the other.

Merryprankster
10-05-2004, 10:20 AM
LOL at red and I sharing the same thought.

BTW, Iran now claims it has missiles that can reach Southeastern Europe.

red5angel
10-05-2004, 10:26 AM
BTW, Iran now claims it has missiles that can reach Southeastern Europe.


well now we have 2 targest for step one.

ZIM
10-05-2004, 11:41 AM
You know, oddly enough there's a political/military concept thats very close to R5A's 4 step plan to world peace. Its known as the Sampson Option and its specific to the Middle East. There are supporters.

red5angel
10-05-2004, 12:50 PM
The Samsom Option is not really what I'm talking about. That's a defensive measure instituted by Israel to assure that anyone who attacks or pressures them in a way they feel "uncomfortable" with, they can reign down nuclear fire on their heads.

Israel doesn't have enough weapons, with enough range, to make a bid for world peace like I mentione. They could certainly wipe out a good portion of the middle east, and while that may turn some heads, and get some people to thnk about their actions, it isn't the decisive action I'm talking about.

Of course Israel could take the four step plan on a smaller scale. Nuke an arabic neighbor and make it clear they don't and won't have a problem using the rest of them. My guess is it wouldn't work very well. I've also imagined that in the 4 step plan, the middle east would again be a problem area, since dying in martyrdom is a way to make it to heaven, it's always gong to be a hot spot for any sort of insane resistance. That's why Israels plan would most likley fail unless they do indeed have enough nuclear weapons, and the capability to deliver them to all their opponents in the middle east.

The US however, doesn't have that issue. We can hit anyone, anywhere, anytime and not one person on this planet can stop us. That's the major difference betwene us and all the other so-called nuclear powers. They're only considered powers under our current state of morality because as a posessor of nuclear weapons, they can retaliate to some degree, killing innocent people.
The 4 step plan takes that morality out of the equation. You don't sort of nuke someone in step one, say Koea or Iran. You turn the country into glass so there can be no response. The rest of the world sit saround in shock and horror, so you let them absorb what just happened, but not too long, you have to act quickly.
Hopefully, those survival instincts kick in, we've made them our ally now, and everyone who has the capability to respond in anyway, now weighs the numbers and decides to go to the negotiating table. Except there is no negotiating. Sadly, at this step someone else may need to be nuked. Only because people are going to balk when we suggest they need to get in line, or they get checked out. Probably some upstart country who has some sort of religious basis for acting suicidally, or someone else who wants to be a "hero".
Best case scenario, is everyone realizes we're very serious, and we'll take everyone out and hit the reset button if need be.


It's elegant, it's simple, and it can work because of those two things and the fact we have the capability for the most amount of force and everyone else does not.

KC Elbows
10-05-2004, 11:24 PM
Wouldn't Russia have enough nukes to be a problem?

Of course, you could just nuke them first and hope they don't reciprocate. Of course, that's a pretty big hope.

As for your corgi, do you dress it up in little sweaters, or is the little feller warm enough just sitting in your purse?:D :p :D

red5angel
10-06-2004, 08:15 AM
I mentioned russia already. Technically the DO have enough nukes to pull the same thing, their just not stable enough to pull off the four step plan currently. They could of course try, but they would certainly not be as successful.

As for nuking Russia, a big no no unless you just want to reset the whole thing. That's why you pick a smaler country who's nuclear program is just getting off the ground.


Nah, he's shaggy enough as it is, although I do have to go out and shovel snow off the back deck and part of the yard wen ti get's to deep. H's a killer but a finicky one.

Sifu Darkfist
07-04-2006, 05:27 PM
Why do we here in the U.S. not encourage the rearming of the dreaded Japanese Army? It is obvious that other powers in the region do not wish to put a stop to the mad man who is testing world resolve. I would like to see China smack the North down with its Giant lions claw, but they have nothing to gain by this. Also they are not threatened by N.K.,,,, But Japan is. N.K. better not revive militancy in Japan it will be more than they bargained for.

Any way thanks for a nice peaceful 4th kimmy, sleep well with 12,000 nukes aimed at ya

Mr Punch
07-04-2006, 05:41 PM
What are you talking about? The American govt is always trying to encourage the Japanese military expansion, but

a) Japan has an army, and a very well-equipped one thanks to the US arms dealers,

and

b) The issue of amending Article 9 in their constitution (which commits them to not engaging in any military action on foreign soil) is always being debated in Japanese parliament, but it's always smacked down because nobody agrees (with the changing of it to mean offensive action + nuclear armament) except for the ultra-right, who would also want the US out of Japan completely... do you really want those people to be in control and re-arming?

What do you really want? The Japanese to re-arm and invade NK, or nuke it? Be careful of what you wish for...

Sifu Darkfist
07-04-2006, 05:50 PM
when i said we encourage i mean the public, as we have seen over the past five years public image has increased and importance.

Also i am only wishing that the Japanese spark action from other sources the nukes if ever needed would more than likely come from us. I only pray for my brothers on the line and pray for their removal.

Mr Punch
07-04-2006, 06:16 PM
First you said encourage the rearming of the Japanese army, now you're saying encourage the public...? Which one?

And I still don't know what you want to encourage the public to do...

The public has many heads... but in general the Japanese people are vehemently against the nuclear option, and many of them support a moderate change to Article 9. But it's to what extent Article 9 is changed that's the rub.

It was only through a loophole that Koizumi could actually deploy any troops in Iraq, and many believe that that was a good thing. But in Iraq, the Japanese army is not allowed to fire or return fire on attackers (hence the British army having to babysit them! :rolleyes: ) which most people agree is stupid.

But do 'most people' want the army to have fully offensive deployment capability? They're afraid of NK, but no, most of them can't agree what they should do about it.

That's why I'm bringing the question back to you... what on earth does 'spark action from other sources' mean? Invade? Invade a little bit?! Just as far as a bit of a beach party?

NK is already sabre-rattling enough for the whole region. The reason it doesn't escalate is because the US, and Japan, and to some extent China, is showing great restraint and pushing for talks. Kim is mad but he's a self-preservationist. And the NK people know nothing at all, and most of them don't even eat very well.

There has been some success over there, and rocking the boat even further would just undo it. The relationship between NK and Japan is as much to do with Yasukuni Shrine, NK kidnapping of Japanese citizens and comfort women reparations as is to do with armament.

If you're just thinking 'The NK situation is ****ing ridiculous...' and wanted to let off steam by starting a thread about it fair enough, but otherwise the nitty-gritty details are the whole point here, not just moaning about how ball-less the Japanese are. They are some of your staunchest allies come what may, in more ways than military, for whatever god-known reason.

Mr Punch
07-04-2006, 06:18 PM
Or sorry, but did you mean the US public should encourage someone about Japanese military expansionism? If so that is even more confusing.

GeneChing
04-09-2013, 09:39 AM
I've been avoiding this subject here since Red Dawn (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1072) but this video is too good to pass up.

Kim Jong Un guides Martial Arts and Shooting Exercise of Soldiers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIH16qsRiE)

So...anyone recognize those forms?

sanjuro_ronin
04-09-2013, 09:57 AM
Looks like some old ITF, maybe moodukwon...

mawali
04-09-2013, 11:08 AM
They seem to be forms adapted for the military within a CQB training and conditioning format. Modern TKD (I did ITF curriculum) when you (I) compare the forms, the video has the postures closer together within a functional utility base.
Modern forms have too wide a gap between postures and how they are used.

Syn7
04-09-2013, 12:00 PM
Dayum, them some fat ass officers!!! Makes you wonder if they were ever actually soldiers.

mawali
04-09-2013, 03:39 PM
It seems that the well placed officers had enough 'face time' and influence to reach where they are now so they, probably, were chosen due to trust and family affiliation than to some 'warrior ethic' in defense of something.

Syn7
04-09-2013, 04:13 PM
You ever wonder why we fear Iran and laugh at NK? Considering the fact that NK actually has nukes.

Whaddya think? Israel? Oil? Or both?

I wonder how much of a threat NK would be if we wanted their rare earths.

GoldenBrain
04-09-2013, 07:32 PM
Thanks for that entertaining video Gene! I don't recognize the forms but they looked pitifully sloppy to me. The shooting was also a mess. I could understand holding large center mass groups like that at a tactical shooting pace, if you were drunk, but when target shooting while sober and being military, they should be able to hold 2" groups. I especially liked the throw at 36 to 38 seconds where the dude landed on his opponent. He would have had his ass choked out cold if he tried that sloppy crap on a decent fighter with even the most basic understanding of grappling. And, what in the heck was that at 1:06?:rolleyes:

pazman
04-12-2013, 10:01 AM
I've been avoiding this subject here since Red Dawn (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1072) but this video is too good to pass up.

Kim Jong Un guides Martial Arts and Shooting Exercise of Soldiers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIH16qsRiE)

So...anyone recognize those forms?

I don't recognize the forms but I haven't done taekwondo forms in years.

I really wonder what's gonna happen in North Korea, though. Tensions are very high. Where is China's "soft power"?

sanjuro_ronin
04-12-2013, 10:16 AM
I don't recognize the forms but I haven't done taekwondo forms in years.

I really wonder what's gonna happen in North Korea, though. Tensions are very high. Where is China's "soft power"?

War is bad for business and China is all about business.

Jimbo
04-12-2013, 10:55 AM
IMO, *if* NK were to actually fire a missile, I could imagine them more likely to fire one over Japan (again...?) than into SK.

Syn7
04-12-2013, 12:33 PM
China looks at NK as their retarded cousin that they have to put on their team when playing basketball even though he ruins the fun. Not because they sympathize with NK, but because they cannot allow the US to have control of the NK/China border. And you gotta see where China is coming from with that one. In the end if it does come to hostilities the only way to keep China from jumping in will be to give guarantees that there will be no militarization within a certain area near that border. It's about keeping the real threats at bay. NK can do some damage, but it would be their end. They haven't a chance of reaching mainland. Not even Hawaii. But they can hit SK and MAYBE Japan. MAYBE. You gotta understand that it's not just about how far their missiles can travel, but also about how much protection the rest have nearby. If people believed there was a legit threat of a nuclear attack, I doubt that it would even venture very far from their airspace before being knocked down. It's a legit threat and I have no doubt that appropriate countermeasures have been taken. Gotta justify that budget somehow, ya know.

Syn7
04-12-2013, 12:55 PM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y9YCaCOI3X0/UWhRhLYpINI/AAAAAAAAJV8/AsWx0e4kP-0/w497-h373/photo.jpg

Drake
04-13-2013, 10:39 AM
You ever wonder why we fear Iran and laugh at NK? Considering the fact that NK actually has nukes.

Whaddya think? Israel? Oil? Or both?

I wonder how much of a threat NK would be if we wanted their rare earths.

Why do you fear Iran?

Syn7
04-13-2013, 11:25 AM
Why do you fear Iran?

Personally.... I don't. You know what I meant.

pazman
04-13-2013, 01:50 PM
You ever wonder why we fear Iran and laugh at NK? Considering the fact that NK actually has nukes.

Whaddya think? Israel? Oil? Or both?

I wonder how much of a threat NK would be if we wanted their rare earths.

I'm not sure if I get this impression. We have thousands of soldiers at NK's border. We fought a bloody war against NK and China 60 years ago. We laugh at NK, but its a sad kind of laugh, using comedy to cope with the fact that it's the one last holdout of the old-style communism, and a brutal and belligerent dictatorship. You ask people in South Korea or Japan, who have suffered through kidnappings, terrorism, shellings, etc, if this is a laughing matter.

bawang
04-13-2013, 03:13 PM
eastern buffer zone is north korea, western buffer zone is afghanistan, southern buffer zone is shan state + va state.


this is an ancient method called "use barbarian to attack barbarian".

Syn7
04-13-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm talking about the propaganda. Not the realities. In the media NK is looked at as small threat while Iran acquiring nukes is used to generate fear. I don't say this to minimize the impact of that conflict. I'm talking about the perception being created on cable news stations, which of course comedians pick up on.

The US has a long history in both regions and have made friends and enemies in both regions.

Syn7
04-13-2013, 03:20 PM
eastern buffer zone is north korea, western buffer zone is afghanistan, southern buffer zone is shan state + va state.


this is an ancient method called "use barbarian to attack barbarian".

Shan is burma and va is ....????

bawang
04-13-2013, 03:21 PM
I'm talking about the propaganda. Not the realities. In the media NK is looked at as small threat while Iran acquiring nukes is used to generate fear.

because iran is an easier target to attack.

Shan is burma and va is ....????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB3fU0j5tx0

SimonM
04-13-2013, 04:03 PM
War is bad for business and China is all about business.

Somebody give the man a prize. :D

Syn7
04-13-2013, 05:11 PM
because iran is an easier target to attack.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB3fU0j5tx0

Myanmar/Burma + va.... and va is???

Syn7
04-13-2013, 05:12 PM
Somebody give the man a prize. :D

Kinda depends on your biz, doncha think? Not that I disagree about them not wanting war and that it would hurt their economy. Just sayin.

bawang
04-13-2013, 05:35 PM
Myanmar/Burma + va.... and va is???

a state in burma

GeneChing
07-08-2014, 09:40 AM
Japanese politician to host North Korea martial arts extravaganza (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/08/kanji-inoki-antonio-japan-politician-wrestler-north-korea)
Former wrestler Kanji Inoki to leave for Pyongyang event days after Tokyo revoked some unilateral sanctions against the state
Associated Press in Tokyo
theguardian.com, Tuesday 8 July 2014 05.27 EDT

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/8/1404811037454/Japans-Kanji-Antonio-Inok-011.jpg
Kanji 'Antonio' Inoki fought Muhammad Ali in Tokyo in 1976 and was inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in 2010. Photograph: Toru Yamanaka/AFP/Getty


A Japanese professional wrestling legend-turned-politician is planning to entertain North Korea with a martial arts extravaganza next month, and hopefully meet some senior leaders while he is there.

Kanji "Antonio" Inoki is set to leave for Pyongyang on Wednesday for the 30-31 August event, which organisers say will feature pro wrestling, taekwondo, the Japanese martial art aikido and a traditional Korean style of wrestling.

Like former NBA star Dennis Rodman – who has said he and North Korean leader Kim Jong-un are friends for life following a trip to Pyongyang in January – Inoki is both a savvy showman and charismatically eccentric. For a politician – he's serving his third term in Japan's parliament – he is also famously fond of being politically incorrect.

During the Gulf War, Inoki organised a pro-wrestling show in Iraq and has visited North Korea nearly 30 times. He was suspended in parliament last year for 30 days after making an unauthorised trip to Pyongyang.

Government officials are not expected to protest against his current plans.

Though he is a household name in Japan, the square-jawed, 6ft 3in Inoki is best remembered elsewhere for fighting Muhammad Ali in Tokyo in 1976. Inoki was inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in 2010 after retiring from the ring in 1998.

In 1995, Inoki fought American Ric Flair in a bout dubbed "Collision in Korea" – a two-day event held in Pyongyang's huge May Day stadium that drew a reported 380,000 spectators and was the biggest pay-per-view in pro-wrestling history. Ali was among the guest attendees.

Tokyo has cut off virtually all official ties with Pyongyang since 2006 over its nuclear weapons programme and other issues. Inoki, however, runs a non-profit organisation that opened an office in Pyongyang last year to promote international sports exchange. His connection to North Korea comes from his mentor, Rikidozan, a post-war wrestling legend in Japan who was born in North Korea.

Last week, Tokyo announced it was lifting some unilateral sanctions after North Korea agreed to revive a probe into the fates of at least a dozen Japanese who were abducted by North Korean agents in the 1970s and 80s. Though Tokyo will continue to enforce UN sanctions over North Korea's nuclear programme, the breakthrough on the abductions issue is expected to allow more contact between the countries.

I merged several old North Korea threads into this one just now.

Jimbo
07-08-2014, 10:02 AM
Seth Rogan and James Franco attempt to assassinate Kim Jong-Un in The Interview.

Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnalZzJ-XS4&sns=em

Looks like a funny one, IMO, though North Korea has made threats about it.

GeneChing
10-15-2014, 10:04 AM
Kim Jong Lee!!! :p


Kim Jong Un seen in public for first time in weeks (http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/14/kim-jong-un-seen-in-public-for-first-time-in-weeks-4904926/)
Tuesday 14 Oct 2014 7:27 am

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ad_148762100.jpg?w=644&h=433&crop=1#038;h=673
Kim Jong Un was pictured in Rodong Sinmun, the newspaper of North Korea’s ruling Workers Party, on 14 October 2014 (Picture: AFP/Getty)

The Dear Leader has returned!

Kim Jong Un has finally come down from his mountain and graced North Korea with his presence.

He hasn’t been seen for several weeks sparking speculation over his grip on power and whether he had eaten too much cheese.

But the ever-reliable Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea news service tweeted saying he had been taking part in.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ad_148789021.jpg?w=644&h=363&crop=1#038;h=447
Kim Jong Lee? (Credit: Rex/Metro)

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ad_148762132.jpg?w=644&h=429&crop=1#038;h=667
Furious note-taking continues after the return of Kim Jong Un (Is that a packet of Marlboro Lights on the table?) (Picture: AFP/Getty)
They said the dictator had been using the time to ‘defend people against Japanese aggression’.

Pictures emerged of him wandering around with a walking stick, surrounded by his ever-faithful aides.

There have been no official reports on the 31-year-old Kim appearing in public since he attended a concert with his wife on September 3. He missed an important political anniversary on Friday as well as a recent session of the country’s parliament.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ad_148766032.jpg?w=644&h=358&crop=1#038;h=557
All screens in North Korea broadcast pictures of the Supreme Leader (Picture: AP)

A story in the official KCNA news agency on two public appearances by Kim was dated Tuesday but also did not specify on which day he made the visits. It also did not mention Kim’s health or lengthy absence from public view.

We have not been able to independently verify the reports.

The North Korean news agency added that he gave ‘field guidance’ to the new Wisong Scientists Residential District and visited the newly built Natural Energy Institute of the State Academy of Sciences.

So it definitely wasn’t too much Emmenthal then.

GeneChing
02-17-2017, 09:17 AM
With the inundation of news lately, the Kim Jong Nam assassination has been overshadowed for the most part. It's a twisty story, too long to fit in a tweet, but here's a little taste.


Kim Jong Nam assassination suspects reportedly spent time in China practicing poisoning 'prank' (http://shanghaiist.com/2017/02/18/kim_jong_nam_assassination_suspects.php)
BY ALEX LINDER IN NEWS ON FEB 18, 2017 1:00 AM

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/kim_jong_nam5.jpg

In one of the latest twists in the sensational assassination of Kim Jong Nam, the China Press, a Chinese-language newspaper in Malaysia, is reporting that before carrying out the poisoning, the two female suspects had lived in China for up to three months practicing the "prank" that would kill Kim Jong-un's half-brother.
The two women -- Indonesian Siti Aisyah, 25, and Vietnamese Doan Thi Huong, 29 -- worked part-time as female escorts in China for between one and three months, according to the China Press.
During that time a mysterious man traveled with the women abroad several times to various countries like Vietnam and South Korea, allegedly to gain their trust. He also introduced them to four men who the police are now hunting down for possibly masterminding the operation.
The report alleges that the women were made to repeatedly rehearse a "prank" in which they would use a handkerchief to cover a person's face.
These details would seem to agree with an interpretation given by Indonesia's national police chief Tito Karnavian yesterday that Siti had been duped into thinking she was part of a comedy prank show. Karnavian claimed that the two women had been paid to perform pranks such as convincing men to close their eyes and then spraying them with water.
“Such an action was done three or four times and they were given a few dollars for it, and with the last target, Kim Jong Nam, allegedly there were dangerous materials in the sprayer,” Karnavian said. “She was not aware that it was an assassination attempt by alleged foreign agents.”
After the poisoning, the two women quickly got into a taxi and fled.
The case is still under investigation by police. Siti's mother has said she was shocked to hear about her daughter's involvement in the poisoning, describing her as a "simple country girl" and a "struggling mother." For her part, Siti claims she was paid $100 for the "prank."
Following his fall from grace as the likely successor to his father as the "supreme leader" of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Kim Jong Nam moved to Macau in the early 2000s where he was believed to enjoy Chinese protection. In the wake of his ill-timed assassination his family has received the protection of police in Macau.

-N-
02-17-2017, 09:22 AM
Assassinated by someone wearing an "LOL" shirt... :(

MarathonTmatt
02-17-2017, 09:35 AM
With the inundation of news lately, the Kim Jong Nam assassination has been overshadowed for the most part. It's a twisty story, too long to fit in a tweet, but here's a little taste.

:eek:

That's crazy! Some Spy Vs. Spy stuff right here, with young escort girls thrown into the mix

GeneChing
02-17-2017, 10:55 AM
It might be the start of a major conflict. :mad:


In China, a sense of betrayal after the assassination of Kim Jong Nam (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-china-a-sense-of-betrayal-after-the-assassination-of-kim-jong-nam/2017/02/17/434d7626-f4f0-11e6-8873-a962f11835fb_story.html?utm_term=.44a622a3c032)

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2017/02/17/Foreign/Images/05795207-4220.jpg?uuid=S1OL3vT7Eea5yeg_zkL7YQ
North Korean leader Kim Jong Un pictured on a South Korean news show about the assassination of his half brother. If North Korea was involved, it would be embarassing for China. (Jeon Heon-Kyun/EPA)
By Simon Denyer February 17 at 11:33 AM

BEIJING — China’s Foreign Ministry has been at its stonewalling, noncommittal best this week after news of the dramatic assassination of Kim Jong Nam, the half brother of North Korea’s leader, repeating the mantra that it has “noticed relevant media reports and is closely following developments.”

But behind the scenes, there is a sense of shock and dismay in Beijing, officials and experts say: If, indeed, Kim Jong Nam was assassinated on the orders of the North Korean leader, it would be seen as an affront to the country that has afforded him protection for many years.

“China’s inner circle of government is highly nervous about this,” said Wang Weimin, a professor at the School of International Relations and Public Affairs at Fudan University in Shanghai.

“Kim Jong Nam’s assassination makes China more aware of how unpredictable and cruel the current North Korean regime is, as well as Kim Jong Un’s willingness to abandon China and sell it for his own benefit at any second.”

Kim Jong Nam had lived for over a decade in Beijing and Macau, apparently with wives and children in both places, and had a reputation as something of a playboy who liked to visit casinos. Chinese experts said he had received 24-hour protection — and monitoring — from China’s security services, as well as financial assistance when he needed it.

Yet despite his status as the eldest son of Kim Jong Il, he had shown no obvious political ambitions. Fudan University’s Wang said Chinese authorities realized long ago he lacked leadership potential, and did not pin huge hopes on him. Nevertheless, he was a guest of their country, who would probably have provided valuable intelligence in the past.

The assassination has come at an uncomfortable time for China, just days after North Korea conducted a missile test and when the new Trump administration has been asking China to do more to rein in its troublesome neighbor and ally.

China responded to that missile test by asking the United States not to escalate the situation, but instead to start a dialogue with Pyongyang.

Then, on Monday, Kim Jong Nam was apparently poisoned in an attack by two women at Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Malaysia. It was a reminder, according to Marcus Noland and Stephan Haggard at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, of the North Korean regime’s true nature: “a cruel and ultimately capricious dictatorship that cannot be trusted on anything.”

While China’s official Communist Party mouthpieces, the People’s Daily newspaper and Xinhua news agency, have confined themselves to bland news reports on the incident, the nationalist Global Times tabloid, given a freer rein, has been more forthright, reflecting views shared by some officials and ordinary citizens.

Speculation sharply points at Pyongyang’s hand in the murder, in-house commentator Shan Renping wrote Thursday: If that is confirmed, China would join the international community in condemning it.

“Regardless of how intense a country's political struggle might be, there is no doubt that it should never rely on assassination methods as means for its advancement,” he wrote. “Human civilization is now in the 21st century, and such a savage and outdated political device should be cast into the museums of history.”

China’s critics, however, accuse the country of reaching across borders to kidnap its own dissidents.

Relations between Beijing and Pyongyang have deteriorated significantly in recent years. Chinese President Xi Jinping and Kim Jong Un have never met and are believed to share mutual disdain, experts say.

In a sign that China’s patience might be running out, it rejected a shipment of coal from North Korea on Monday, a day after the ballistic missile test, South Korea’s Yonhap News Agency reported.

Fudan University’s Wang said China recently received intelligence indicating that some people in North Korean leadership circles have been suggesting sacrificing ties with China and trying to establish closer links with the United States, Japan and South Korea.

“The idea that China cannot be trusted and can only be used, that Japan has been the deadly enemy for hundreds of years but China has been the old enemy for thousands of years — that mentality still prevails in their internal party meetings and was inherited from Kim Jong Un’s grandfather,” he said.

In that context, the assassination of Kim Jong Nam could be a signal of the regime’s unhappiness with Beijing for supporting United Nations sanctions and of a desire to distance itself from China, he said.

Other experts say it is more likely that Kim Jong Nam was killed by the Southeast Asian underworld, or that — if Pyongyang was responsible — it had more to do with the regime’s internal dynamics and paranoia than a desire to send a signal to the world.

Nevertheless, as commentator Ding Gang wrote in the Global Times, the development has not made the task of reining in North Korea’s nuclear program any easier — and that’s not good news for China.

“North Korea’s nuclear facilities and missile bases are located near China’s border,” he wrote. “Once the situation in the Korean Peninsula spirals out of control, the facilities will be primary targets or the final fortress of North Korea's defense. Either way, the effects on China will be severe.”

The murder of Kim Jong Nam, he warned, could reinforce destabilizing calls for tougher action to force “regime change” in Pyongyang.

“People in the U.S., Japan and South Korea will more likely opt for hard-line approaches, which will trigger nuclear security problems,” he wrote. “We had better prepare for a nuclear emergency in North Korea rather than wasting our time discussing who is behind the assassination.”

Congcong Zhang and Jin Xin contributed to this report.

GeneChing
02-22-2017, 02:31 PM
MarathonTmatt is right. This story is so SPY VS. SPY.


Vietnam's accused assassin: From keen singer to killer (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/1202989/vietnams-accused-assassin-from-keen-singer-to-killer)
23 Feb 2017 at 00:41
WRITER: REUTERS AND ASSOCIATED PRESS

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Doan Thi Huong, posted glamour-type photos on her Facebook page called 'Ruby Ruby', and many of her Facebook friends were Koreans.

The Vietnamese woman suspected of helping to kill the North Korean leader's half-brother was a keen singer whose Facebook pages featured pouting portraits and pictures of parties.

Four days before Kim Jong Nam was killed at a Malaysian airport, she appears to have posted a picture of herself wearing a shirt emblazoned with the acronym "LOL", similar to the one on the fleeing suspect caught on CCTV cameras.


SUMMARY
The Vietnamese suspect in the death of the North Korean leader's estranged half brother appeared to be wearing an "LOL" shirt like the attacker's in photos on her Facebook page.

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Enhanced video grab from Kuala Lumpur International Airport shows alleged assassin.

Doan Thi Huong, 28, had posted to Facebook under the name Ruby Ruby, according to her niece, 18-year-old Dinh Thi Quyen.
Her profile picture shows Huong wearing a red cut-out swimsuit at a pool. Other photos are selfies taken in Phnom Penh and in Kuala Lumpur, a few days before two women attacked Kim Jong Nam at the city's airport, and rubbed his face with suspected poison.

The account's first post was made Dec 14 and the last was Feb 11 from an area near the airport. "I want to sleep more but by your side," it said above a photo of Huong with closed eyes and short blonde hair.
Many of her 65 Facebook friends are men, including several Koreans.

Doan Thi Huong worked at an entertainment outlet, according to Malaysian police, who have arrested her over the murder of Kim Jong Nam.

On a rice farm in northern Vietnam, the family whose daughter's details match those from Malaysian police said it rarely knew where she was since she left home a decade ago aged 18.

The last post on a Facebook page in the name of "Ruby Ruby", which family members confirmed to be one of Huong's accounts, is dated Feb 11 from Kampong Besut, Malaysia.

"I want to sleep more but by your side," the post reads above a picture of her, eyes closed and wrapped up in bed.

Malaysian police have said Huong and an Indonesian woman wiped a liquid, containing an as yet unidentified toxic substance, on Kim Jong Nam's face at Kuala Lumpur's budget air terminal on Feb 13.

The estranged half-brother of North Korean leader Kim Jong Un died soon afterwards.

Huong was described by police as an "entertainment outlet employee", but they did not give details of where she had been employed or what her immigration status was.

TALENT SHOW

Among the links on another Facebook account, which the family also said featured pictures of Huong, was one to the page of the Vietnam Idol talent show. This account was in the name "Bella Tron Tron Bella" - Chubby Bella. There were no posts after November.

A woman bearing a close resemblance to Huong sang on the show as contestant number 67816 on June 3, 2016.

Facial recognition tools give a match to the pictures released by Malaysian police of Huong in custody.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/media/content/20170223/2224205.jpg
The Facebook page belonging to the accused assassin shows her in an 'LOL' shirt.

The contestant gave Nam Dinh as her home town - the same as Huong's according to passport details from the Malaysian police - but her name was given as Dinh Thi Khuyen.

She left the show in the first round.

A member of the Vietnam Idol casting team declined to comment on the appearance and its spokeswoman did not immediately return a request for comment.

"Can I sing you a song tonight?" she wrote in a Facebook post on March 24 last year. "Reply the fastest and put your phone number in the comment. I will call and sing for you."

Family members mostly work the rice paddies around their home in Nam Dinh, in the Red River Delta southeast of Hanoi.

Huong only visited occasionally, they said, and she was vague about where she had been. She is now 28.

Her father, who fought for the North in the Vietnam War, lost part of his leg in the fighting. Vietnamese authorities had been in touch since the arrest, he said.

"They only say they will support Huong as she is Vietnamese, but did not tell me if she is really a suspect," he told Reuters.

"Even though I am her father I cannot control things that happened when she is out there. I cannot know," said Doan Van Thanh, 63, who works as a security guard in the local market.

Family members said they only found out she was abroad from the media. They had thought she was working in Hanoi.

So far, Vietnamese officials have only confirmed to media that investigations continue and they are in touch with Malaysia.

KOREAN LINK

A South Korean police official said Huong visited the holiday destination of Jeju Island in November for four days and they were looking into what she may have been doing there, but declined to provide further details.

Of 65 friends on the "Ruby Ruby" Facebook page, 27 have Korean names. Fifty six of the friends are men.

One status update on the first Facebook account was posted in the Korean language on March 23 last year, saying "I love you, I miss you", although it did not use words that would be expected for someone familiar with the language.

Most photographs in the accounts are of Huong attending parties, in hotel rooms or portraits. In many she blew kisses to the camera.

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Ms Huong of Vietnam (left) and Indonesian Siti Aisyah are accused of wiping poison on the face of Kim Jong Nam immediately before his death. (Photos via Royal Malaysian Police)

Cosmetics, clothing and fast food shops were among Huong's likes on Facebook. Her place of education was given as Harvard, although the family did not believe that was true.

On Jan 3, Huong posted a picture of a boarding pass from Hanoi to Kuala Lumpur. Family members said Huong was last at home in Nam Dinh from Jan 25-29.

Huong also appears to feature in another online video. Posted last April, it is on the channel of a Vietnamese YouTuber who gets women to kiss him in the street.

The woman in that video matches the one in the latest police photo from Malaysia.

In the video she is shown giggling before a kiss with the man on a park bench.

In the photo, she wears no makeup and stares uncertainly towards the camera.

GeneChing
10-02-2017, 12:12 PM
Such a crazy story.



WHO KILLED NORTH KOREA'S LEADER KIM JONG UN'S HALF-BROTHER? WOMEN FACING DEATH SENTENCE PLEAD NOT GUILTY (http://www.newsweek.com/who-killed-north-koreas-leader-kim-jong-uns-half-brother-women-facing-death-675232)
BY SOFIA LOTTO PERSIO ON 10/2/17 AT 6:29 AM

Eight months after Kim Jong Nam dropped dead at Kuala Lumpur international airport, two women arrested and charged with his murder pleaded not guilty on the first day of the much-anticipated trial in Malaysia on Monday.

The women wore bulletproof vests in court and nodded as interpreters read out the charges. The interpreters said both women pleaded not guilty, Reuters reported.

The estranged half-brother of North Korean leader Kim Jong Un was killed with a banned nerve agent on February 13. Footage from the airport security cameras showed the two women, 25-year-old Indonesian citizen Siti Aisyah and 28-year-old Doan Thi Huong of Vietnam, smearing his face with VX, which the U.N. describes as a weapon of mass destruction.

According to the prosecution, the assassination was practiced several times in Kuala Lumpur's shopping malls with the aid of four other North Korean citizens, who are treated as suspects in the case and were caught on video footage observing the murder from a distance.

"The prank practice carried out by the first and second accused with the supervision of the four who are still at large was preparation to see through their common intention to kill the victim," stated the prosecution's charge sheet.

The four suspects' names have not been released although police said an Interpol red notice, an international alert just short of an arrest warrant, was issued because they are believed to have fled Malaysia.

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Vietnamese Doan Thi Huong (L) and Indonesian Siti Aishah are seen in this combination picture from undated handouts released by the Royal Malaysia Police to Reuters on February 19, 2017. The two women pleaded not guilty as the trial began on October 2, 2017.
ROYAL MALAYSIA POLICE/HANDOUT VIA REUTERS/FILE PHOTO

Diplomatic relations between North Korea and Malaysia, once somewhat friendly, collapsed as a result of the murder. The two countries fell out after Malaysia expelled the North Korean ambassador—believing that embassy staff had been involved in the murder—leading Pyongyang to bar all Malaysians from leaving the country.

Malaysia secured its citizens’ release in return for Kim’s body and safe passage home for the North Korean citizens sought in relation to the murder. Last week, Malaysia imposed a North Korea travel ban, forcing the postponement of a football match that was scheduled to take place in Pyongyang this Thursday, after it was alread rescheduled twice in the wake of the assassination.

The women face the death penalty if convicted. They claim they did not know they were participating in an assassination and were told they were partaking in a prank for a reality TV show.

The court heard the testimony of airport worker Juliana Idris and Police Lance Corporal Mohd Zulkarnain Sanudin, who saw Kim before he died in the airport clinic. Kim said he had been attacked by a woman from behind. His eyes were red and the police officer said he could still see some liquid on Kim’s face.

Zulkarnain also said he mistakenly recorded Kim’s nationality as South Korean, as he could not understand the acronym “DPR Korea” written on his passport—which stands for North Korea’s official name, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.

“I did not know what DPR meant. I was only sure that Korea was South Korea," he told the court.

The trial is expected to last until November 30.