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View Full Version : Southern Mantis compared to Wing Chun



cha kuen
10-12-2000, 10:09 PM
I've seen a few clips of Gin Foon Mark doing southern mantis. I remember seeing that southern mantis has chi sao identical to wing chun's sticky hand excercise. Is it exactly the same or are there differnces in the chi sao excercise? How many hand forms are in southern mantis? Any info is appreciated. thanks

10-13-2000, 12:40 AM
in fighting i'll pick sm any day over ving stun, but thats my opinion. similarites maybe centerline but most southern systems control and dominate centerline.

peace

cha kuen
10-13-2000, 04:19 AM
But southern mantis and wing chun are both southern styles. I dont understand your last statement..?

Fubokuen
10-14-2000, 12:02 AM
Yeah, I think he's saying what they have in common they also have in common with other South Hand arts.

I personally don't feel WC has much in common with these other systems. There's a different stance and upper posture and even the handwork isn't that similar.

10-14-2000, 12:42 AM
fu bu kuen--correctamundo!

WongFeHung
10-23-2000, 01:12 AM
Actually, there are more similarities than differences, but that also depends upon the Sifu. My Sifu taught both Wing Chun and Hung gar and they being sister arts, are very similar. Most people mistakenly view Hung Gar as a longer range art than wing chun, and the hand techniques in the Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen are also found in Sam Bo Gin and Sup Dim Kuen as well as the wing chun forms. As I said, it depends on how the systems . Some Wing Chun seems very linear and jerky, and some Hung Gar schools don't fight tight inside, or utilize chi-sao, tui-sao, etc. To each his own, I suppose.

WongFeHung
10-23-2000, 01:13 AM
ooops, I meant to say Sup Bot Dim Kuen-(can't count)

Fubokuen
10-23-2000, 09:38 PM
Any similarities are external, IMO.

It is not the apparent physical moves that make a style, but the intention and direction behind them. No matter what "scientific" approaches there have appeared within WC recently, it does not have the complexity of South mantis. The comparison is quite weak from my perspective. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

10-23-2000, 11:54 PM
southern mantis gou choy will destroy the wing chun guys pretty fast.

vingtsunstudent
10-24-2000, 08:16 AM
since when does the complexity have anything to do with practicality.
if anything the complexity makes it longer & harder to learn & master let alone use.
fierce tiger, again this is your opinion but i must say that again i feel you are wrong.
if you could both give me your exact reasoning & where your knowledge of wing chun comes from then i would be willing to listen.
you have made very bold statemants without one ounce of evidence to support it..
do you really believe that wing chun is that limited?so what is your depth of knowledge.
vts

10-24-2000, 02:09 PM
hell yip man /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
i personally think that the gou choy is more powerful and would easily break the defence of the wing chun style. that just my judgement, ive practised both styles and that my opinion.

where have you been lately anyway?

hows your sifu?

peace

vingtsunstudent
10-24-2000, 03:50 PM
hey bleached blonde eyebrows hows it going.
you say you studied both styles, so how long each respectively?
i saw in another post that you said that southern mantis would dominate the centreline, what do believe that a system that is based on this premise would not be able to control their centre?
i think whoever you may have studied wing chun with was either not a good coach or you didn't listen & train hard enough in the system.
as to where i have been, i have just put up a new fence & am preparing to build a new gym for myself in my back yard(my new training area should be about 13metres x 8metres)
other than that i have just been training & trying to be a tolerant father.
vts

BIU JI
10-24-2000, 09:27 PM
What else other than wc have you studied to be able agree or disagree with this about mantis or other systems such. You appear quite convinced of your wc's simplcity and pure **** grit to over come a more complex system.Do you choose wc because it's simple? Perhaps they've anwsered some questions your wc is still scratching it's head about. Is that too complex for you?

10-25-2000, 12:25 AM
hi yip man,
yes i have studied wc, but it wasnt for me. i did it for three yrs many yrs ago about 15 to be exact. i cross hand with many styles of north an south, the straight blast got wraped up and i got hammered a few times. wc is good but i found pak mei, southern mantis to be more a complete system.

i think you wrote an thread once and said you studied pak mei under sifu andy in australia is that right, how did you find the traing and how did he teach the sysytem.

take it easy my bold headed yip man

vingtsunstudent
10-25-2000, 03:47 AM
well, my knowledge comes from the fact that one of our students spent several years studing southern mantis, from which i learnt the first 5 hand sets & training drills(although at the time i learnt off him he had been studing that longer than i had my wing chun, i think he was a bit dissapionted that i could control his centre easily, esp. seeing as though he is also quite a solid rugby union player)
i have studied loong ying with a man who retired from teaching over 20 years ago(he is quite well known in our chinese comunity as being a former gangster, i was also his first white student & it took me well over a year to even get him to teach me)
when i studied for a while with andy i practiced jow gar(it was just something to fill in my sundays & to get a view on other chines systems)
although we discussed bak mei many times, the funny thing is that andy also knows a viet. version of wing chun that he keeps for himself & doesn't teach.
the thing is i know what my skill level is & i know what i like, as do you.
i am not saying that wing chun is better, unlike what you people are doing with your arts, i am just trying to say that it is just as diverse & practical as any of the arts you may care to mention.
i think you should all take a good long look at your arrogance before it jumps up & bites you on the a$$, again i am just trying to offer you some insight into a system that more than proved its affectiveness this century alone.
vts

vingtsunstudent
10-25-2000, 05:27 AM
biu ji
i know you study in sydney but would you mind telling me who your sifu might be?(the chances are good that i will know him or know of him, as he probably will of my instructor)
what questions have these systems answered that wing chun might still be scratching its head about?
for the most part you to seem to have a very limited knowledge of wing chun(we do learn just a little more than how to chain punch)& your love of your art is to be admired but please again pull your head out of your a$$ & realise that all this complexity sh*t means nothing when it comes time to dance.
vts

10-25-2000, 07:27 AM
yip man,
viet wc has animal forms, why didnt you asked to learn this rare wc. i heard its little more complexed that yip mans version, can you shed some light on this. was sifu andy a good teacher.

peace

vingtsunstudent
10-25-2000, 10:39 AM
andy is quite a good teacher. although we never overly discussed, at great lengths, the wing chun he does, i do not recall him mentioning that it had animal forms.
like i said earlier he keeps this one to himself, infact he does not even advertise the fact that he knows it.
vts

10-25-2000, 01:45 PM
yip man,
there was an article in a mag i think inside kung fu last year or so on vietnam wing chun and it mentions these forms. i'll try and dig it up for you.

peace

vingtsunstudent
10-25-2000, 02:15 PM
thanks anyway ft but i already have that article
vts

10-25-2000, 02:22 PM
yip man,
ok i'll let the article go then cool..
you must site on this **** thing all night, its like a drug this computer. train hard dude!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

vingtsunstudent
10-25-2000, 02:32 PM
man i'm only new at this compter & intenet thingy, so when ever i have a spare moment i try & play around with it.
besides that i don't work at the moment so i can just train, hang out with my family & sit on the computer.(tv here is pretty lame & so is pay tv)
vts
ps you are right this is a bad drug & i think i'm hooked.

10-25-2000, 02:38 PM
what you need to do is have a iron palm bench, some dit dar beside you, a mook jong on the otherside of the computer. hehe /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

its got me hooked, even though i get the ****s reading/ half are the wons coming back. i sit here and laugh my head of at everyone. isnt it great tat ever person here is defensive on there own style- thats respect for ya...

later

billy_pilgrim
10-26-2000, 07:19 AM
Everyone is defensive, but I win the award for being most defensive...and if anyone disagrees, then just step up to the plate...
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

10-26-2000, 08:39 AM
a cant find the steps..where are they.

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

David
10-26-2000, 11:59 AM
There's a thread on this at http://www.mantis.org.uk

As an aside, Chow Gar southern mantis GM Ip Shui fought a challenge with a wing chun master and called it a draw after an HOUR of fighting

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

meltdawn
10-26-2000, 06:57 PM
Just remember, it's the artist, not the art. While we all stand up for what we practice (hell, many of us are part of a family or lineage so of COURSE we stick up for it) not all of us have had the opportunity to be exposed to GOOD practitioners of other styles.

Fierce, while you sound very convincing about crossing hands with styles other than your own, and also studying many, you still rarely divulge indepth comparisons. The only thing you've mentioned in this thread indicating experience is that your wing chun straight punch got wrapped up, so now you think it's less superior. I'm not attempting to incite your anger. I just want you to share some of this knowledge that you proclaim to have. It's been MY experience that true masters like to teach. Your posts are like an itch I can't scratch. No wait, like watching wushu - it's pretty and fascinating, but does it work?

I have limited exposure to either art. I really WANT to know how people compare them.

"Your kung fu is no good!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Meltdawn

10-27-2000, 12:07 AM
look all i talk about is what i have practised, do you see me in jkd or bbj SH!T. no you dont so back up a step.
i have been around and have crossed hand, not just with kung fu guys, karate, jujitsu, aikido,thai boxing to test myself, plus as mention i have been fighting in tourneys full contact. my view on wing chun was just that! i dont think wing chun is less superior as in fighting but as a system to learn. it is not as complete for MY LIKEINGS. I HAVE HAD 4 SOUTHERN MANIS STUDENTS COME TO ME TO LEARN DOES THAT MAKE SM INSUPERIOR AS WELL.
wushu does work by the way.

THAT SCRATCH IS PROBABLY CRABS- GO GET IT LOOKED AT.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif peace

meltdawn
10-27-2000, 06:49 AM
"no you dont so back up a step."
I guess you missed my sentence "I don't wish to incite your anger". I meant it.

"look all i talk about is what i have practised"
Yes, that's right! But you don't convey any of the vast knowledge you assert you have accumulated. I still don't know much about your bak mei. The last thing you said was that it was heavily influenced by dragon. No revelation there. I know you're new here, but some of us do want to learn from each other, which is hard to do when all anyone says is "I beat a such and such guy" or "my style kicked his style's ass"
I want to know WHY you think wing chun is less effective for you, a practitioner of bak mei, another style based in simple principles. I want to know WHY and HOW your wing chun got scrabled when sparring southern mantis. I want to know WHY you think these SM guys came to you, thinking your style superior to theirs. Rock/scissors/paper = bak mei/southern mantis/wing chun?

What I'm trying to say is that I don't care if your opinion is for this or against that, but I would benefit from knowing your experiences from which you have deriven your conclusions. Lay it on the line, DUDE.

Meltdawn

10-27-2000, 10:03 PM
meltdawn,
i only studied wc for 3 years. i met a few people of southern mantis. after some time we were friends, so i politely asked to play cross hands, i tried many wing chun techniques that i favoured and they simple used heavy elbow skills and wrapping hands, they had really good sticking skill. i tried lop sau,bong sau many things anyway i learn alot from these guys.

so i travelled to southern china and leant bak mei. this bak mei is similar to the jook lum mantis. similar san sau drills, conditioning.etc

maybe my wing chun was not at a standard yet. though i do like there chi sau, and leg drills.

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

humblefist
11-01-2000, 02:30 AM
I've practiced PM and have sparred/chi sao with WC guys and even though it was pretty even, for every hit I got, they got 2. I found that PM was more natural and flexible while WC was a bit too stiff and they tired.

11-01-2000, 02:57 AM
my pak mei has no relations with dragon, you must be thinking clc pak mei.

peace

Kong Jianshen
11-02-2000, 05:38 AM
*SIGH* There is no superior style! If it works for you, it works for you, if not, oh well.

Bruce said there is no chinese way of fighting, no japanese way of fighting, it is all the same. Not until we have 3 arms and 4 legs will it be "different". Sheesh, people forget that ALL styles claim the best. Karate has Mas Oyamas many think he was he best, Aikido has Morihei U., W/C had Wong S.L. the same is thought of him, JKD has Bruce Lee, etc etc etc. And each style thinks thier guy is the baddest of the bad. List goes on and on and on. No style is better then any! Bottom line. Its like saying a blue car is faster then a red car simply because it is blue.

You must understand and belive in what your doing. If the art and you dont merge into one, you will be defeated. And you should find something that suits you better.

Some arts are better for other people and individualism is what its about.

Fierce Tiger, if you have studied so many martial arts and know so much, act like it! If you are going to make comments back them up with facts and not "well they wrapped me and uh I dont know why but it didnt work, therefore W/C sucks" Come on, we are all adults here right? meltdawn had some EXCELLENT points. The rock paper scissor thing is a great example!

Thats it for me.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

11-02-2000, 05:59 AM
i never said once that i have done plenty of styles, but what i have studied i know mostly about. vingstunstudent and i are just having a inside joke about wc and having ago at each other all fun to me, so take your sh!t elsewhere. wc didnt suit me and i feel better doing pak mei for the last 15 years.i havent studied any other style for that amount of time, i ask alot of questions on all different styles to understand there style. i never once said i know so much. anyway DILL practise what you preach,WHAT ARE YOU DOING RIGHT KNOW TALKING SH!T. are you up set that i said this about wc? IF I UPSET YOU GOOD WHO GIVES A F# WHAT YOU THINK. AND THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY.


/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

WongFeHung
12-12-2000, 01:16 AM
(sigh) okay, here goes:
I studied both systems-as well as bak mei-ya'know what I discovered? Both systems are great infighting systems,both cover centerline, both have trapping, destructions,multiple inch-power strikes,chi-sao,etc. WC likes to be on top of the bridge, and on the blind sides, SM is very comfortable on the inside gate (what wc people sometimes refer to as the inferior position)SM's jow sau is really good. It seems that one complements the other in terms of developing attributes. As far as outward appearance, it really depends on how the system is taught. I see alot of WC guys who are rigid, stiff,insistant that wc utilses straight lines rather than circles, etc. Frankly, my sifus taught elipses rather than lines. potato-po-tahto