A new book on Shaolin history, Buddhism, and martial practice is available at
www.shaolintemple.org
This is not a "how to" or picture book, it is a 300 page text filled with *information* on all things Shaolin.
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A new book on Shaolin history, Buddhism, and martial practice is available at
www.shaolintemple.org
This is not a "how to" or picture book, it is a 300 page text filled with *information* on all things Shaolin.
And why isn't the author more forward about who he or she is?
As a representative of the publisher, I can say that the book contains a detailed description of why the authors have chosen anonymity, and also contains lineal information. The book is the completion of a project begun many decades ago by three deceased masters. Their names can be found on the amazon.com's description page for the book.
Very few living sifu were personally acquainted with these priests, and fewer still trained under them - but if you have concerns of legitimacy, talk to sifu who were active in NYC Chinatown between 1930 and 1965.
Curious, but which temple were these Shaolin priests supposed to be from?
Just wondering, because the list of core styles seems like kind of an odd collection:
Southern Tiger (which has absorbed Shaolin's Leopard, Eagle Claw, and Monkey styles)
Crane (both White Crane and Black Crane)
Snake
Dragon (both Southern Dragon and Northern Dragon)
Northern Praying Mantis
Southern Praying Mantis
Pak Mei (White Eyebrow)
Wing Chun (Blessed Springtime)
Also, is there any more info about all this that can be found outside of the book? What makes it different than any other "Shaolin" book on the market? Are there any photos/videos or other information out there about the OSC?
Brad, different temples. Abbot Li was trained at Fukien, but served as abbot at Honan (and for the entire order). Hua was his "chancellor," I guess you'd call it. Master Ben served as one of the last abbots at Fukien. These priests were joined in NY by other Shaolin priests and masters (some who were not ordained) representing a few other temples as well.
The old core of Shaolin was the Five-Formed Fist, meaning Dragon, Tiger, Cobra, Leopard, and Black Crane (in the north). But Shaolin was kind of like a university where many subjects were studied, and where martial styles were experimented with and developed. So, the priests added material to their curriculum if they felt it was up to snuff. Southern Praying Mantis is a good example. The style was originally developed 1800-1830, and practiced in Shaolin from that time, as well as in Jook Lum - but the Fukien council of masters did not adopt the style officially into the temple until the mid/late 1800s.
Regarding videos, I know of no plans to ever produce any.
I think the book is fantastic, yet I respect others' skepticism and caution. You can always wait for more reviews.
...but the anonymity thing is really odd. Legitimacy resides not within the name but within the work.
Exactly!!!Quote:
Originally posted by GeneChing
Legitimacy resides not within the name but within the work.
I hope people find the book informative and useful.
.........................................
Just a Guy wrote.
The old core of Shaolin was the Five-Formed Fist, meaning Dragon, Tiger, Cobra, Leopard, and Crane.
.........................................
You are right, when you say that the core of old northern Shaolin is
wu xing.
r.
Dear Just a Guy:
After viewing the website and reviewing the information concerning Shao-Lin's effort to trademark being commercially driven, I was hoping that I might ask you to send me a copy of your book, free of charge. What say ye?
Sincerely,
dimmakseminar
i second dimmakseminar..i want a free copy too..=)
I just bought one :D ..only thing..shipping can take up to 4 weeks (for EU) :(
The publisher is a non-profit (as opposed to a commercial for-profit), and proceeds all go to support the preservation of Shaolin Ch'an and arts - but that doesn't mean the publisher can give away copies!!!
Nice try, though :)
HAHA, Wen just emailed them for some information and got back "buy the book" and "T" signed the email. It's sounds a bit fishy, doncha think??
I don't know what it is about the Northwest drawing all the freaks, but we sure do seem to be getting MORE then our share.. Anyone want to come up here and take some back to your own areas?? Lets spread them out a bit so it doesn't make ALL of us Northwesterners look REALLY bad (not that it's not that bad already).
Has anyone else ever heard of Black Crane before? I've never personally heard of it, but I'm just wondering if anyone (Such as Gene or NorthernShaolin) have!?!?!?
Thanks,
~Jason
There's plenty out east too :p The Chung Moo Doe cult, Count Dante's people, Ashida Kim's Kid's Club, Shaolin decended from a wearwolf, Kun Tao people who think they can turn into panthers, and there's a Grandmaster sending me personal emails calling me Castro and threatening to sue me over things I had no idea about(see main forum) :DQuote:
Anyone want to come up here and take some back to your own areas??
Anyway, I think I'm going to see if our library will order this book for me. $40 is a bit steep for a book that I know nothing about... if I was wealthy, I'd probably pick it up in a second though :p
Yes, but not much.Quote:
Has anyone else ever heard of Black Crane before?
wanna see black crane??get a white crane and pour black paint over him...u got black crane..=)
sorrie gay joke..just wanted to type
LIKE...
is this some channeling or angel dust thing?
~doc
Hahaha Stylez you ol' joker :D
Does that mean you'll donate the proceeds to the Shaolin Temple in Henan? ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Just a Guy
The publisher is a non-profit (as opposed to a commercial for-profit), and proceeds all go to support the preservation of Shaolin Ch'an and arts -
What you're saying, that the book should be judged on its own merit, does not apply here. The authors of this book, whoever they are, claim authority over the Shaolin arts. They expect us to listen to what they have to say and pay for it and not a small sum either. I would hope that the book isn't a rehash of things we've all heard and read before, that it contains some new information. In that case, how are we supposed to judge the veracity of said information, if the authors aren't even willing to stand behind their own work?
You say these 3 monks were from the Southern Shaolin Temple, the existence of which has been a hotly debated topic for a number of years. In fact, it has also been the subject of archeological research if I'm not mistaken. If these people had information as to the whereabouts and proof of existence of the Fujian Shaolin Temple, why didn't they come forward and help the researchers with their valuable information and put an end to this debate all this time?
Some good questions.
1. The authors do not claim authority over anything. Information is presented. People can take it or leave it - assess everything you read with your own brain to see if it makes sense and is wholesome. That's the Buddha's advice.
2. The authors do not expect anything, and have no desire to ram anything down anyone's throat - see #1. The book's price reflects its high quality construction (hardback, Smythe-sewn bining) and the high quality and sheer volume of information presented.
3. The copyright for the book is held by the Order of Shaolin Ch'an, and the OSC stands behind the work. There were many contributors. The primary contributors still living have chosen anonymity for many reasons, not least of which is to protect their privacy. What is wrong with wishing to live a quiet and peaceful life free of the material and egoistic burdens of "fame"?
4. Would the words of a few old monks now or 40 years ago really change the archaeological debates going on today in China regarding the southern temple? Does it really even matter? The temple isn't there anymore. The temple travels with the sangha, not the other way round. During the 1800s and the early 1900s, the Fukien Temple was located at the forest site near the river. Pre-Ch'ing dynasty, it was the site up in the mountains. There you have it. Do you think the archaeologists will stop the debate now?
1. Maybe I should write a book on Shaolin and publish it anonymously too. Would you buy it? How would you know I have any first hand information about anything Shaolin?
People who write books or teach have to show reason for why they're "qualified" to teach. This means either presenting a verifiable lineage, or if your lineage is not verifiable or you don't want to disclose it for whatever reason, by demonstrating the skills that you're talking about personally.
3. Unfortunately, the website of the "order" is also lacking in verifiable information as to their authenticity and what it is that they exactly do or teach. What is the big secret containted within the pages of this book that would catapult its authors into overnight stardom and disrupt their peaceful lives? Will kung fu paparazzi line up at their doorsteps, if their identities are revealed?
4. I'm sure if the exact location was pointed out, the researchers could find some remains and if we're lucky maybe even a couple of historical artifacts. Is that a bad thing?
Well, I'll be the first to call BS on the high quality comment, but not in a negative way. What determines the price of any publication is not the quality unless it's extreme high quality, like an art book. Take the new Muhammed Ali book for example (well, that's an extreme example). What determines the price of any publication is how many are printed. Print more and it costs less. Now I'm assuming from the lack of any crediting to a known publisher that this book is vanity published or self published. Generally speaking, that bodes poorly for a book because it means that it could be published by a known publisher, but in the martial arts industry, most people are do-it-yourselfers, to a fault, so it's pretty common to see independant publications. For an independantly published hardbound book of that length, $40 is reasonable. I'd be interested to see a review copy.
Slow down guys ! what's the big deal here ? Read the book first and then start to talk about the 'true/fake' things....It's just a f**ing book....:rolleyes: Or maybe You guys don't have anything better to do than talk on this board here....?I have an idea, save $40 bucks,buy the book and read it. Come back to discuss when You finished it..What You all think ?
And $40 isn't that kind of expensive.....come on...
That's exactly the attitude I need for my upcoming 50$ secrets of Shaolin and Dim Mak book.Quote:
Originally posted by xiao
have an idea, save $40 bucks,buy the book and read it. Come back to discuss when You finished it..What You all think ?
And $40 isn't that kind of expensive.....come on...
Buy it first, then you can bash me if you don't like it. While I spend your hard earned money. ;)
Oh, I can't disclose my qualifications for writing this book, other than the fact that I learned everything from an enlightened grandmaster of both Wudan and Shaolin that was Bai Mei's distant cousin. You'll have to take everything on faith.
You guys have heard of this forthcoming title from Wisdom Publications The Spiritual Legacy of Shaolin Temple by Andy James.
Man, I should pull my Shaolin book together like everyone keeps telling me. Until then, you'll just have to read my articles. ;)
The only place I ever heard of black crane was at shaolin.com.
is there a connection? :p
I saw that too KL!!! lol
OSC ~vs~ TCMA the Movie! B Rated
FWK> I Fen Wen Ke have come to challenge you! ( Synthesizer SFX as FWK comes though the gate )
OSC> I will except your challenge…. and I will use my Black Crane Style, …… and I will DEFEAT YOU! (Synthesizer SFX)
FWK> So you think your Black Crane Style is good?!!...... (echo, reverb)
Well …..then ...now…….
I will use my POISONOUS DEATH KICK MONKEY FIST!!! ( echo, reverb, synth SFX)
That Tong Na Ho and I created and made a secret manual for!!!!!
***Insert Cheesy Clint Eastwood western movie theme song here***
LMAO!!!!
~Jason
Hmmmmmm...... the secret manual by nameless...
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!
AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... (echo,reverb,sfx)
.......quickly finishes the remainder of the jasmine pearls and slams the small clay cup onto the old wooden table and heads out to amazon.com.....
~somewhere in the distance a black crane cries~
Actuallly, I don't mean to sound all sour or anything, but hwat the heck!
That site I mentioned, shaolin.com is loaded with erroneous and egrigious materials. Some of it is complete and utter nonsense. I think it is a source of disinformation about Shaolin more than anything else.
More arguments ahve been started because of the incorrect or outright wrong information being spread through that site.
One day, the net will be governed in its publications the same way newspapers are. hopefully that day will come soon and we can be rid of all the shyte we have to sift through in our attempts to find a single pearl of wisdom.
That is a very good question!Quote:
Originally posted by Kung Lek
The only place I ever heard of black crane was at shaolin.com.
is there a connection? :p
Here's an interesting snippet from the FAQ at Shaolin.com:
Hmmm.Quote:
9. Where did you get all this information?
All the information on this web site comes directly or indirectly from refugee Shaolin priests who fled China and emigrated to America before the temples were destroyed in the 1920's.
The Shaolintemple.org website also refers people to Shaolin.com for further information, a website that sells gongfu online, and teaches exactly the same list of styles that this book claims to be about! Learn Shaolin at the comfort of your home, all you need is internet access, lol!
And this is the horse stance they teach!
http://www.shaolin.com/assets/images...nce_horse2.jpg
:D
:D
Further research reveals that our mysterious Shaolin Monk is in fact a computer scientist that lives in Seattle and works for Boeing.
lol!
Our bookworm... cough... Shaolin Monk, is behind both Order of Shaolin Chan and Shaolin.com, the latter of which is a website that teaches you authentic Shaolin gongfu on the internet.
:rolleyes:
No no...this is by FAR my fave question....
2. Is this the same as the "kung fu" TV series?
Both of the styles seen on the original Warner Brothers series (1971-1977), black crane or Chin Na (David Chow as technical advisor) in the earlier shows and praying mantis (Kam Yuen as technical advisor) in the later ones, are Shaolin kung fu styles. The philosophical content of this series was mostly accurate (in our estimation, the temple flashbacks were arguably the best part of the series). The more recent "Kung Fu: The Legend Continues" (1992--) uses a random assortment of styles, many, we suspect, devised just for a particular episode...
And people teased ME about Capo Fu Do?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
First off Sifu Kam- the narator in the movie says he's doing PM, it's actually Shaolin 4.
Second- WTF Black Crane = Chin Na?? I'm utterly confuseled by this....
And Third- KARATE GI'S-------need I say more??
And it STILL doesn't say who the hell teaches (not that I found) just like shaolin.org doesn't say who put out the book or anything- just got the response to my email from "T".
~Wen~
Setting:
***OSC and FWK face off with OSC in a Black Crane pose (like Daniel-San from The Karate Kid). FWK just stands there trying to suppress his laugher while holding a black Gaiwan full of Dragon Pearl Tea (-the tea compliments of Tao of Tea , Portland Oregon.)
*Rain beats upon the ground and the tables surrounding them in the courtyard at the headquarters of “The Order of Shaolin Ch'an” (hmmm…can we say very CULT sounding??? Hmmmmmmm)***
FWK> “And now, as you have dishonored the name of Shaolin and all of us that believe in it, I will now destroy you and all that you stand for.”
***FWK places the Gaiwan upon the table nearest him.
***OSC takes a step back and tries to define his Black Crane pose.
OSC> “NO- I will defeat you with my BLACK CRANE techniques. You will no longer question me and I will have DEFEATED YOU…..Muahahahahahahahahaha” (sfx, reverb echo)
***FWK moves with lightening speed before another drop of water can hit the ground. He lands and pulls of the Monkey slaps the peach technique on OSC. A high pitched screech comes from OSC while he falls to the ground.
OSC> EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
FWK> “SO, you think your kung fu is good?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.” (synth fx)
OSC> “I WILL DESTROY YOU…….”
***With rage in his eyes, he stands back up onto his feet and begins to run for FWK while flapping his arms like he’s trying to lift off the ground. We here that this is a highly efficient Black Crane technique used all over the world. (Flash back to Jim Carrey in Batman & Robin at the asylum for the next scene…….)
OSC> “I am the BLACK CRANE MAN………I……AM…..THE…..BLACK……CRANE……MAN”
***FWK- In one fatal move, he applies the Shaolin Death Kick as he watches his opponent fall helplessly to the ground. He steps back into the “Taming the Tiger” pose. He then stands up, grabs his Gaiwan with his Dragon Pearl tea (compliments of Tao of Tea , Portland Oregon) and walks to the door. He stops, looks over his shoulder and laughs.
FWK> “MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.” (reverb echo, synth fx)
***Somewhere in the distance Tong Na Ho hears a black crane cry.
I fear our friends might be more qualified to write books on the mating habits of cranes than the fighting arts modeled after them. ;)
Heart-warming amusements.
Black Crane is a legitimate style with very few folks still practicing. David Chow is a master of Black Crane. Call him up and tell him his style is crap. Much of the ch'in na in White Crane was adopted from the older Black Crane style. Is it so hard to believe that there may be martial styles in the world which you haven't heard of? There're plenty I've never heard of.
The Order of Shaolin Ch'an is in no way affiliated with shaolin.com. Shaolin.com is an informational website run by a student of a master who *is* a member of the Order of Shaolin Ch'an. This student runs that website as his own activity, and yes, there are inaccuracies and problems with some of the information presented. There is also a variety of useful and accurate information on that website.
If people aren't interested in this new book, that isn't a problem. Don't buy it. Ignore it.
Our organization does not make a fetish out of secrecy. But realize that this whole Confucian business of comparing lineages is a pai/gar activity. It has never been a Shaolin tradition to do anything to "make a name" for oneself or discuss who one's teachers are with anyone besides other Shaolin. We have stretched beyond our custom in putting the names of some deceased masters of our organization on the amazon.com description page for The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text (and some details about them in the book). If people lack the resources to verify who these men were, and so wish to substitute derision for curiosity or (at worst) disinterest, that's unfortunate.
It's astonishing that anonymity should upset some people so much. I can only assume those who are upset are interested, but also wary, and for some reason have decided that snide put-downs will make for a fun pastime. That's fine. Wait for reviews. We have posted a few comments by Sifu Paul Eng (who studied T'ai Chi Mantis with Chiu Chuk Kai, Tiger with Wong Moon Toy, and Seven Stars Mantis with Kam Yuen) on www.shaolintemple.org. There will be more reviews, some being published in the future which I have already received advance notice of.
Well I have an e-mail in to Sifu Eng to see if this is true? Also Be a where that Sifu Eng is my kung fu uncle. He is my Sifus Sihing..Quote:
Reviews: from http://www.shaolintemple.org./publication.htm#reviews
"The book is excellent...Finally, after all of these years there is a book that every martial artist should read to get the true meaning of gung fu."
Sifu Paul Eng (www.taimantiskungfu.com)
~Jason
Indeed...Quote:
Originally posted by Just a Guy
Heart-warming amusements.
The Shaolin.com domain is registered under a "Small Forest Company" in Seattle.Quote:
The Order of Shaolin Ch'an is in no way affiliated with shaolin.com. Shaolin.com is an informational website run by a student of a master who *is* a member of the Order of Shaolin Ch'an. This student runs that website as his own activity, and yes, there are inaccuracies and problems with some of the information presented. There is also a variety of useful and accurate information on that website.
There's a branch of the Order of Shaolin Chan called "Virtual Museum of Natural History", which can be found at curator.org. They are both registered under the order under the same PO box in WA. The president and director, Robert George Sprackland, is also the founder of the Small Forest Company(aren't Buddhists not supposed to lie?). He's a Zoologist, who I'm guessing assumes his secret monk identity on weekends and uses a pu-dao to chop onions for his wife.
Another one of the directors, Daniel J Diessner, can be identified as one of the "masters" for the Order of Shaolin Chan, since one of his email adresses begins with sibak@. This man is a computer scientist and works for Boeing. Right Livelihood in his case is working for a huge corporation. ;) Shaolin Monk indeed, I wonder how much time he's had to master the Shaolin arts that he's claiming mastery and lineage of. What's his qualification to teach?
Yet another one, secretary and director Chip E. Miller, PhD, is one of the few people recommended as a master to train under outside of their own at the website of the Order. He teaches the Black Crane style so must have learned it from these people.Once again, makes one wonder how much time he had to master it between his dissertation, his professional career and his charity work.
For all their ragging on the Henan Shaolin temple and its Monks, these are a bunch of weekend warriors that are only playing Monk. The 16 year old Wushu students in Denfeng probably have more real gongfu than these guys, because that's all they do, every day.
If people hide, it's because they have something to hide. These people know that if they came out and published a book that claimed to be written by "Two living Shaolin monks, based on materials left by three deceased Shaolin grandmasters" , they would be laughed at by the whole MA community because they are no Monks. So instead they hide their identity, and try to live off of the name of Shaolin, which they so readily abuse on their Shaolin.com website, which is commercial and not informational by the way, while all the time making a ruckus about the trademarking of Shaolin. Wonder why. ;)
I don't know if those 3 Monks ever were in NYC or if they ever taught anyone, I'm sure that'll come out soon too. What I do know is that these guys are no monks, they're just delusional enough to think they are.
The truth will set you free. ;)
I call bull.Quote:
Originally posted by Just a Guy
Our organization does not make a fetish out of secrecy. But realize that this whole Confucian business of comparing lineages is a pai/gar activity. It has never been a Shaolin tradition to do anything to "make a name" for oneself or discuss who one's teachers are with anyone besides other Shaolin.
The whole lineage thing is the traditional equivalent of having a degree, which I'm sure your members [cough] monks are all too familiar with. They are quite proud when they display their college degrees and see no need to hide them.
Being a lineage disciple and indoor student of someone who is in turn a lineage disciple is the "qualification" to teach the art, just like having a PhD is the qualification to teach at a university. When you write a book, you're essentially teaching publicly, and you're required to disclose the accurate source of information, who you are and why you're qualified to teach.
Unless, of course, who you are is nothing like who you can give the impression of being by hiding under a veil of secrecy and the latter is much more financially rewarding...
No offense to Mr. Eng, since he's a legitimate master, but these guys seem to have a connection with him. They sell his books and he's on their very short "recommended list". Then he seems to have read the book before it was even published, so...Quote:
Originally posted by tao of wushu
Well I have an e-mail in to Sifu Eng to see if this is true? Also Be a where that Sifu Eng is my kung fu uncle. He is my Sifus Sihing..
We'll need some completely independent sources to get to the bottom of the Chinatown end of the story.
Hello emre.
I'm cuorious, what CMA do you practice and who is your teacher?
r.