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Thread: Karate

  1. #16
    rogue Guest
    Yo Omega, that Angle Dust is bad for ya dude! :rolleyes:


    Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

    Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
    Louis L'Amour

    BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman



  2. #17
    omegapoint Guest

    No Dust...

    Rogue: No dust, just testosterone that sometimes makes me "testy". I apologize for the rant, as it ain't y'alls fault for knowing what you know. There is a reason America isn't in the top ten of nations as far as grade school education is concerned.
    What is Shuri Te and Naha Te? Jesus I hope you're not a Karateka. If so then that's scary!!! Let me simplify this. Shuri Te= Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu and its Japanese offshoots (ex. Shotokan) (basically) and Naha Te= Okinawan Goju Ryu, and Uechi ryu (Pangai Noon) and its offshoots (ex.Japanese Goju Ryu). Shuri and Naha are names of cities (villages in Okinawa). Te means "hand" or "hand art". Kyokushinkai is a mixture of Shuri and Naha Te with an emphasis on Funakoshi's "modernized" Shorin Ryu(which means Shaolin Way) called Shotokan. Another misunderstood style is Kenpo. It is NOT originally an American contrivance and in fact Mas Oyama's (Kyokushinkai's founder) took Chinese Kempo as his first style. Okinawan Kenpo was around long before Ed Parker or James Mitose! Kenpo means "Chuan Fa" in Japanese and I think that my next point is apparent. From China to Okinawa and Japan, to Hawaii to the mainland USA. The original Kenpo was an original art, but it isn't what Mitose and Parker "reformulated". Hope this helps, you level-headed intellectuals!Later...
    :cool:

  3. #18
    Daedalus Guest

    omegapoint

    I agree whole-heartedly!

    As far as karate goes though, I'd say that 75% of what's being taught in the U.S. right now is the watered down stuff that came out of post WWII Japan/Okinawa.

    Why?

    Let's think about it. If you just got your @$$ kicked, would you turn around and teach all your fighting secrets to the guy who just stomped you?
    No! But you'd take his money and teach him a bunch of crap instead. Just like the Okinawans did to American servicemen after WWII.

    I think that most karate styles are still effected by this deception today. Those who are followers will never grow beyond it; those who are innovators already have.

  4. #19
    oldwolf Guest

    Omegapoint

    You are obviously well read and researched and I believe a crane stylist, despite well thought out replies on this and other boards you view is blinkered by the very brand loyalty you accuse Karateka of.

    I am glad, that after 26 years of misguided karate of various varieies, ****oryu (Tani Ha, Tsukada), Goju ryu (M,Higoana), Kyokushin (S.Arneil), Sankukai (Butch White) etc, I have come on the internet and been enlightened by a practitioner of a style I claim my heritage from.
    In spite of the ineffective styles I have trained in I have managed to survive so far and must have been lucky in the confrontations I have been in as a bodyguard / bouncer and some time bare knuckle fighter, Karma neh!

    I am enlightened, I will not sin again.

    Please feel free to point out my nearest crane stylist (that you recommend) that I may be enlightened further.

    "And the crowd called out for more"

  5. #20
    omegapoint Guest

    Forgive me for my arrogance...

    Old Wolf: Sir, your fighting lineage is very admirable. I didn't meant to say all of the styles you've been involved with were ineffective, just that some may be modern interpretations of a complete, older artform. Kyokushinkai is an awesome form of fighting as is Okinawan ****o Ryu. I haven't had vast experience with Japanese ****o Ryu stylists, but it seems to be an effective system. You are probably also a prime example of an artist's vs. the art's effectiveness. I would gather being a bouncer would entail some street experience and size to boot. Thank you for the compliment on my knowledge, and I agree I can be prejudicial when it comes to my interpretation of Martial Art.

    I don't mean to downgrade others, but lack of knowledge is one of my pet peeves. That is a flaw I need desperately to work on! I myself am far from ILLuminated or enlightened, and on the contrary am wishing to dispose of convention and eventually interpret for myself. "From the void springs everything", is a maxim I wish to embrace and understand. So as you can see I have a looooong way to go.

    As for Crane stylists, anyone versed in Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu or even Okinawan Goju Ryu should be able to help you or at least point you in the right direction. Also, anyone with Fukien white Crane GongFu knowledge would be ideal. I don't know of any practitioners off-hand on the British Isles, but I can ask some people I know if they can help me help you.

    Peace, and I hope you find what you're looking for in MAs and life.Have a great week/weekend!!! :D

  6. #21
    oldwolf Guest
    Omegapoint, you are forgiven!

    I do know of several 'white crane stylists' in the UK, but they are laughable, I reckon they jumped on the band wagon.

    Not long back from a lomg weekend training with Ryozu Tsukada (****oryu) which we spent on the Bunkai of Tomari Rohai, Itosu Rohai, Goju Sesan and Matsumura Sesan. Although I had worked on these Kata before what was refreshing was Tsukada Senseis intimate knowledge of the subtle (and sometimes not so) differences and the nuances of the different schools. Bunkai, bunkai and then more Bunkai. Good training.
    Also recently been training with a Shotkan godan under Taji Kase, who recognise the limitation of their style but boy can they make it work for them.
    Train hard, train soft, but train. :D

    "And the crowd called out for more"

  7. #22
    omegapoint Guest

    Sesan?

    Sesan is one of my favorite forms! It has numerous hidden grappling techs. Your style of ****o Ryu practices Matsumura Sesan? Awesome!!! What is the difference between Goju's Sesan and Matsumura's Sesan. Rohai is a beautiful form, I wonder if it's similar to the Shorin version(s) ?
    I think I remember of one Dojo my Sensei did a seminar at a few years back. This was in the late 80's but the dude might still be around. If I remember correctly it was in Hatfield, England, but I can't remember any instructor or school names. I'll ask Kyoshi Lindsey this weekend when I train.
    In Sensei Lindsey's organization (Kokusai ShuriTe Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai, All Shorin Ryu Style) we are continuously learning and researching the White Crane aspects of our style. He corresponds and trains with a Sifu Wong of Fujian White Crane in NYC. Many people from multiple styles, Kyokushin, Goju Ryu, Shotokan, ****o Ryu, all styles of Karate, study under Lindsey, and many travel hundreds of miles to do so. He is truly a hidden font of fighting info! He can be reached at this address: Ronald Lindsey, PO Box 689, Bastrop, Tx. 78602. Ask about our professional journal "Maishin Shorinji" and any other questions you may have. The info in the journal is history, strategy, and bunkai, as well as a reflections section which concentrates on a notable Okinawan stylist. Unlike Black Belt mag it is very well written with no advertisements. Peace and I hope this helps... :)

  8. #23
    oldwolf Guest

    Sesan

    Hi OP,
    Difficult to explain in any detail over the net without writing out each Kata, move for move.

    Basic differences, Goju sesan is very short and is performed in sanchin dachi, the moves are similar but the central section of the Matsumura version is missing and of course the matsumura version is performed in ayooba(sp?) dachi.
    The versions of Rohai, I know know five versions called Rohai, the most different ones are the Itosu Rohai sho, ni and sandan. Some moves are similar to the Tomari version and also another version I learned from a goju kai instructor.

    "And the crowd called out for more"

  9. #24
    Kristoffer Guest
    hi Omega,
    actually, im not a karateka. Im a Shuai Shiao and Gong Fu student. I just wanna know what people think of karate. thank you

    ~K~
    "maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

  10. #25
    omegapoint Guest

    Check this out...

    O.W.: Rogue asked a question about differences in Isshin Ryu Seisan and other Seisans and I gave him an outline of the steps in Matsumura Seisan. Maybe you've already peeped, but it's on this same O.R.A. section of KFO if you're interested. Our Rohai Kata are Rohai Jo, Rohai Chu and Rohai Ge. They are used to prepare the student for learning the Hakutsuru (White Crane) forms. The Rohai are very cool kata! Talk with ya' later... :D

  11. #26
    omegapoint Guest

    I almost forgot..

    Wolf: The stance we use is called a Pinan Dachi. It's Matsumura's version of the forward or front stance. Also, we use an L-Stance in the middle segment of Seisan. Do you know of a site where I can see the steps for the Rohai you learned?

    Kristoffer: What's up brother! Shuai Jiao is PHAT!! I have done Judo, Caique JiuJitsu (Rickson Gracie's Highest Ranking Black Belt) and wish there was a Shuai Jiao school near me! I wanna study it someday. I think that your original observation about the Sport Karate chicks was right on! Just look at Cynthia Rothrock's ass! ****!!!

    There is real Karate out there though, and some of it is very Chinese in its approach to the MAs. I don't know about that Tournament stuff, man. Other than exposure, its only admirable attribute might be the FIIINE females that are part of the circuit. Later all... :)

  12. #27
    Kempo Guy Guest
    As for Karate being effective, I for one feel that is up to the teacher. I've been to many schools where I can honestly say they would not be able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

    But on the other hand, I have been to several excellent schools. Many of these schools were from the old-school Okinawan styles, such as Uechi Ryu and the different Shorin Ryu lineages, such as Matsumura Seito and Ryute (formerly Ryukyu Kempo). I definitely found the way bunkai was taught in Ryukyu Kempo to be very effective.

    As for Japanese Karate, there are many strong styles as well. I only have experience in a couple of these, namely Kyokushin and Ashihara (with a little bit of Shotokan). I think Kyokushin and Ashihara are very no-nonsense styles with very practical and effective techniques. Of course in Kyokushin there is a big emphasis on their Knockdown fighting, which is of course rule-bound. Otherwise it's an awesome style. Ashihara is a spin-off from Kyokushin with a bigger emphasis on self-defense and practicality.

    I want to reiterate the fact that the effectiveness of most styles are dependent of the teacher.

    Just my $0.02.

    KG

  13. #28
    phoenix-eye Guest
    Oldwolf - nice to see another Scot on here.

  14. #29
    Stranger Guest
    omegapoint,

    Kyokushin's goju influence is as significant as its shotokan influence. Many other arts influenced Mas Oyama's martial development and many found their way into the kyokushin curriculum (and others have disappeared in recent decades). Oyama personally used and taught extensive breathing techniques (ibuki, tensho, sanchin, etc.) and internal development exercises (various seated and squating breathing routines). His Karate is real deal, MANY of his students are the real deal, and MANY of the student's students are the real deal. Nobody is claiming it is traditonal, but to deny their track record is illogical. They blended old and new training techniques in an effort to create a Renaissance in Karate away from "physical education" Karate being promoted in Japan at the time. The 100 man kumite is not dead. Shigeru Oyama is one instructor I can name off the top of my head that has done the marathon more than once and actually twice in one week if I recall.

    I don't get mad.
    I get stabby.

  15. #30
    omegapoint Guest

    Yes I Know...

    In our dojo,once a month, we have 2 Kyokushin guys who travel about 200 miles to train. They explained to me that the majority of the fighting techs come from the emphasis of the Northern Kata (Shotokan and/or Shorin Ryu derivation). They also learn Sotuhern Kata such as Tensho and Seipai, but explained that their style was much closer to its Shotokan lineage. Regardless, many knowledgeable Ryukyuan stylists feel that the designation of Shorei (NahaTe/Goju Ryu) and Shorin (ShuriTe/Shorin Ryu) are meaningless (they mean the same thing) and that all Ryukyuan Ti descended arts are basically the same. The only significant difference may be in later interpretations, and in the commercialization of the art. When was the last Hyakunin Kumite? Just wondering 'cause these dudes told me it was basically extinct.
    I asked them why they were training Matsumura Seito and they explained that my instructors knowledge of bunkai and body-change was exceptional and it has made them much tighter fighters and competitors. Later...

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