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Thread: Karate

  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    its not about watering down, but the denial of roots. like how miao dao used to be called "true transmission Japanese sword"

    when the okinawan guys talk to japan tv its "lost history", behind closed doors they perfectly clear
    Yes, I tend to agree with that.
    If it is from China and now it is Japanese, the chinese roots must be "uprooted".
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  2. #497
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    A lot was lost when karate was transmitted from Okinawa to Japan. There are a lot of reasons. Funakoshi (an Okinawan) really wanted karate to be accepted as a budo form, and at first, karate was looked down upon in 'mainland' Japan...a fact that a lot of people are unaware of.

    Also, he wanted karate to become part of the physical education system for Japanese schoolchildren, to prepare them for future military service. For this reason, it had to be modified considerably to be taught uniformly to large groups of kids. This further diluted it.

    Originally, Funakoshi did NOT allow free-sparring among his students, nor did he want it to become a sport. But his Japanese students nevertheless began to create a sport karate method which, if you look at it, was based around a kendo-style rule set. They also further modified the movements by adding higher kicks, wider/lower stances, and extended movements, not to mention lots of kata. Needless to say, there also came an emphasis on group conformity and a more militaristic training mindset.

    One Okinawan master who disagreed a lot with Funakoshi was Motobu Choki. He emphasized full-contact sparring with safety equipment, and he himself only ever learned perhaps one (or two?) kata.

    So yes, I agree that much was lost or severely altered when karate was adapted into Japan. What the Japanese did very well, though, was the generally OCD emphasis on consistency of quality and organization for large numbers of people.

    I practiced Shi-to ryu in my younger years, which is a combination of two Okinawan systems, but it was thoroughly "Japanized" in the way it was taught, with little if any difference to modern Shotokan in application. I liked the spirit of the training, but not the method so much.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 07-18-2013 at 09:54 AM.

  3. #498
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    One Okinawan master who disagreed a lot with Funakoshi was Motobu Choki. He emphasized full-contact sparring with safety equipment, and he himself only ever learned perhaps one (or two?) kata.
    Correct and while few care to admit it because of his brawler personality, most masters were like him in training ( if not in doing).
    UeEchi ryu originally had 3 katas
    Goju had 6
    It was shorin-ryu that had the most if I recall ( from which most japanese systems are at least in part derived from).
    The thought was varied but something like this:
    1 kata fro each stage ( beginner, intermediate, advanced).
    Some though 6 or 9 because of Buddhist influences.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Playing Devil's Advocate, and I do love kung fu, but... again, playing Devil's Advocate - Traditional Hard Core karate maintained a higher level of fighting efficacy through modifying the art by focusing on power and tool development (fundamentals), minimized the total number of forms, and hard sparred.
    This hence why i never saw the whole "teehee karate doesnt have the whole chinese secret formula in it" It doesnt seem they are largely missing out given theres more examples of them applying it in full contact setting ( goju even heavily influenced kk karate) where as the chinese arts they sprang from have almost no fighters or clips of them even applying it

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  5. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    This hence why i never saw the whole "teehee karate doesnt have the whole chinese secret formula in it" It doesnt seem they are largely missing out given theres more examples of them applying it in full contact setting ( goju even heavily influenced kk karate) where as the chinese arts they sprang from have almost no fighters or clips of them even applying it
    EXACTLY!

    ---
    We have the Gorilla in the Room folks.

  6. #501
    To me Okinawan and Japanese Karate are two very different things.

    As far as fighting goes, the past is past and today, as a general rule; (and there are exceptions,) only the Kyokushin guys fight.

    At least in the West....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  7. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    EXACTLY!

    ---
    We have the Gorilla in the Room folks.
    but karate is gay

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  8. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    but karate is gay
    T'is true. You make a good point Sir.

  9. #504
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    I used to go into an American enterprise (with Japanese connection) Karate dojo years ago not too far from where I live now. My son was 6 years old at the time and enrolled as a student there. It was all Americans in positions of teaching and ownership, have to laugh, they took themselves entirely serious but they reminded me of a cult. The "Belts" knew I studied Chinese exclusively, knew I was studying them the whole time.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 07-18-2013 at 08:17 PM.

  10. #505
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    Despite starting in TKD and being aware of its Japanese origin, I enjoy doing a lot of the basic kicking, punching, etc but seem from more of a broader CMA approach, I appreciate the TKD workout a lot more.

    This fellow is no nonsense in his training methodology (recently added) <update>
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGFDikazKGQ

    I still see elements of TKD, albeit at a kids level in this system. Just me
    Last edited by mawali; 07-19-2013 at 09:05 AM. Reason: used non negative gramma' (not grand mah)

  11. #506
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    In another forum, there is a Karate style discussion. I find the following comments are quite interest.

    - Most of the instructors know close to nothing about the origin of the style.
    - It is important to be informed that these are not Japan-approved rankings.
    - Their curriculum also differs vastly from what ..., the original founder, intended. It can be very misleading.
    - Karate was supposed to cultivate peace.
    - ...

    I though this kind of discussion could only happen in the "WC community". I was wrong.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-18-2013 at 09:09 PM.
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  12. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post

    I though this kind of discussion could only happen in the "WC community". I was wrong.
    That kind of discussion happens anywhere people train martial arts without real combat in mind. Soon you will see discussions like this from Muay Boran.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  13. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post

    One Okinawan master who disagreed a lot with Funakoshi was Motobu Choki. He emphasized full-contact sparring with safety equipment, and he himself only ever learned perhaps one (or two?) kata.
    Not exactly OT, but I'll just throw it in anyway: from his books, and the works of a few different of his temporal peers, Motobu knew of several old-style kata, and probably knew many more than Naihanchi Sho and Bassai (the two he taught most often).
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  14. #509

    Teaching My Wife UMS American Karate

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxkx...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA

    Teaching My Wife UMS American Karate
    Green Belt Techniques
    Left/Right Slip, Head lock Hip Throw

  15. #510
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    Any karate gi experts here?

    Long story short - wife's cousin passed away recently. In cleaning out his gear the family found a karate gi which they've given me because I'm into all that "fighting stuff".
    I picked it up yesterday. Looks like it's been dyed black at some stage - not well. The stitching is still white and there are some lighter faded patches in places.

    I wouldn't mind resurrecting it and turning it white again. Anyone know if I can just bleach it or will that destroy it completely? I do some occassional grappling with jjj/judo guys - it would be nice to save some of my t shirts and wear this instead. It's stiff as a board.

    Thanks in advance for any ideas.

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