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Thread: Karate

  1. #46
    Shaolindynasty Guest
    Boxers do but not in the same way as martial artists. If martial artists thought of lineage like boxers then nobody would be a fraud(not a bad idea actually). In boxing you never here "I was trained by Tyson so I can fight even though I never got into the ring to fight or spar" Boxing is proved by fighting. MA should be still like that, I haven't competed but I have been in alot of fights so I know what I do works and if sombody wants to test me then they can try and fight me. Think if one of Wing Lams students(strong lineage) fought a Shaolin do student (questionable lineage), say the WL student looses, most of us would still say Shaolin Do sucks cause they have no lineage. Even if the Shaolin Do guys consistantly won CMA people would still say they suck cause of the lineage issues, what sense does that make?

    I think alot of Kungfu guys get to caught up in holding on to things like history and treating their practice like a preservation act. If you are practiceing to preserve a tradition then I feel you are wasting your time because nothing lasts forever anyway. Also if you stick to that rigid way than the art will never serve you the way it should.


    www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

  2. #47
    Shaolindynasty Guest

    Thanks Budokan

    The one punch thing always interested me. I have seen some hard hitting Karate guys but how do you feel the average practitioner can benifit from that practice or can they?

    I like the fact that it can be mixed between the different styles. That really helps to keep practitioners open minded. I wish Kungfu was more like Karate in alot of ways.


    www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

  3. #48
    Budokan Guest
    The average practitioner cannot benefit from it, IMO. It takes years of makiwara practice to even approach that idealized goal. I've done shotokan and makiwara for 3 years; I'm not there yet.

    K. Mark Hoover

  4. #49
    Merryprankster Guest
    Shaolindynasty,

    I'm not sure people would say "shaolin-do sucks," but they probably would say "shaolin do isn't REAL kung fu," and then the real kung-fu practicioner who received their ass-stomping would lick their wounds and retreat to their kwoon, and practice...secure in the knowledge that they practice REAL kung-fu, rather than learning about HOW they got their ass handed to them so they don't have it happen again.

    The above is a fictitious generalization not meant to characterize any style or person. Happens in ALL of them.

    I don't know why that is... just because people made up a "birth legend," (Wing Chun anyone? No way to verify the veracity of THAT particular story...) about their style doesn't make its martial value less, if it truly has that value. How many wierd ass legends about style origins are out there anyway, and what difference does it make now?

    It happens all over though. A national Judo once stepped off the mat, fresh off a finals victory won by ippon, only to hear somebody say "he has no judo."

    Huh?

  5. #50
    Colin Guest
    I basically agree with most of what you've said except this:
    ShaolinDynasty: "What I am trying to say is that what the "original founder" of the style intended doesn't really matter, what matters is what is happening today."

    This is so wrong! You could not possibly be more wrong in this statement!

    To say that what the founder of the style intended doesn't matter, is to completely destroy the basic concept of what the style represents.
    Funakoshi formulated okinawan karate to be more than just self defence. To make it an art, a way of life. Just the same as so many of the Chinese Master spent their lives developing their systems. If you now say that what they intended does not matter, then surely you will be taken the very essence of the style away, and leaving nothing but a husk. Pretty much like how Okinawan karate was taken to America, turned into American karate, then watered down to become no more than kickboxing.
    Now kickboxing is good but it ain't karate or kung fu.

    CT..........

  6. #51
    Merryprankster Guest
    At the same time Crawling Tiger, you can't expect western persons to whole-heartedly adopt asian concepts and customs. Kickboxing is far more reflective of the west than Funakoshi's karate was. It's a completely different mindset, and cultures leave their mark on the art, just as the art leaves its mark on the person.

  7. #52
    Shaolindynasty Guest
    "I'm not sure people would say "shaolin-do sucks," but they probably would say "shaolin do isn't REAL kung fu," and then the real kung-fu practicioner who received their ass-stomping would lick their wounds and retreat to their kwoon, and practice...secure in the knowledge that they practice REAL kung-fu, rather than learning about HOW they got their ass handed to them so they don't have it happen again."

    That would be a HUGE mistake, I wouldn't like to believe that CMA would do this but they would.
    :( :(

    "It happens all over though. A national Judo once stepped off the mat, fresh off a finals victory won by ippon, only to hear somebody say "he has no judo.""

    Stuff like this bothers me, comments like these are usually made by insecure people though. Why does the martial arts have so many haters?


    www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

  8. #53
    Radhnoti Guest
    1. I studied a type of shorin ryu karate for a year +, and our sensei (shihan actually) always stressed the importance of our lineage. This will be the only answer I make that doesn't correspond with Budokan's.
    2. Pretty much from what I've seen. Minor modifications and you'll fit in fine.
    3. Our stances were high, except for a conditioning kata.
    4. My instructor emphasized "pressure point" type fighting, HEAVY conditioning and lots of heavy sparring.

  9. #54
    Shaolindynasty Guest
    What I meant with that comment was alot of people try to do some kind of reverse evolution. When styles are passed from generation to generation they are supposed to become more refined. By back tracking and trying to guess what the style was originally you could be regressing instead of progressing. I also mean people should be in the present instead of trying to relive the past.


    www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

  10. #55
    Merryprankster Guest
    Ap Oweyn sent me an e-mail, and I think he's right on this:

    It happens because people have invested a lot of time and money and a lot of themselves into the MA they've chosen... especially if they've studied it for awhile... I don't care if you have a black belt from the worst McDojo in the world, you took some time to do it.

    It's a defensive response... nobody wants to believe that what they spent all that time practicing might not have the answers... ESPECIALLY when they've been told it HAS all the answers. So they fall back on "well, that's not REAL kung-fu."

    I personally believe this is an advantage of the western way of thinking. There is a greater tendency for a western mind to question tradition than that of a far eastern mind. This is neither good nor bad, it's just the way it is. Confucian philosophy was more rigid than the dialectic adopted in the west and that changes the outlook on EVERYTHING. And while vietnamese culture is different than chinese, is different than Korean, Confucian thought had an influence on them all due to trade and cultural exchange.

    Take note... what offended the CMA community about Bruce Lee's "classical mess," concept was not just the idea that CMA might not have as much martial value as suggested. A great deal of that offense was from the fact that he bucked tradition. He questioned the way it had always been done.

    Traditional doesn't mean better, but many people treat it as if it does. It doesn't mean "worse," either, it just means "traditional."

  11. #56
    Kung Lek Guest
    The other thing is "forms collectors", these types are the same as "lineage groupies".

    To have a lineage is quite honourable and stems from the cultural modality of filial piety which predominates in the asian cultures but not here in the west.

    Most of us could not trace our family trees past our great grandparents whereas in asian cultures you find that quite routinely the whole family is acutely aware of who the first member of their family is and where whos great great great granfather's sister married whom and so on.

    This flows over into the lineage questions concerning Martial arts which is also a cultural ingrainment in asian cultures but not in the west.

    when we adopt these practices in the west, we take them in their entirety into our hearts but for us as westerners we have a tendency to be lacking in the areas of filial piety because it is quite alien to our culture and has been so outside the nobility for all time in the western cultures.

    This does not mean in any way shape or form that a westerner cannot bear a style from an asian lineage, nor does it mean that westerners cannot use the arts as they were intended.

    In fact, many of the asian martial arts have survived and maintained and gained huge popularity because of their practice in the west and the interest that westerners have had for them.

    As a culture, the westerners absorb and accept much more from outside than almost any other culture on the planet. This is quite apparent. I mean, how many of you guys on this forum are of strictly chinese heritage? I am guessing it is the smaller percentage of the whole.

    Most of the guys I learned martial arts with from Korean to Japanese to Chinese were westerners with only a sprinkling of asian people in the classes.

    I think that many of the masters who opened their schools with the right mindfulness and goal to teach from their hearts knew that if not for the further dissemination of the arts into the outside cultures these arts simply would have difficulty surviving.

    so, again I reiterate, Lineage does have importance in context to the methods of training supplied, but have little to do with each individuals gained results in the arts. I've seen plenty of non-asians performing Kung Fu both in fights and in forms and outstripping their asian counterparts in both cases.

    That's the reality of the martial arts belonging to the world and to those who would diligently practice them.

    Keep the arts away from people who are not of the same family or culture and your art will die.

    True masters do not look at your name or your skin colour to decide whether you get to learn or not, they decide upon your character and eagerness and willingness to put in the hard training to do it.

    peace

    Kung Lek

    Martial Arts Links

  12. #57
    Merryprankster Guest
    Ah yes... the forms collectors.

    I punch the wind and kick the air! FEAR ME!


    Kung Lek... we've spent a great deal of time agreeing on this thread... did somebody put something in our drinks? :)

  13. #58
    Water Dragon Guest
    Well I blow wind and defile the air, FEAR MY GUARD

  14. #59
    joedoe Guest
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> At the same time Crawling Tiger, you can't expect western persons to whole-heartedly adopt asian concepts and customs. Kickboxing is far more reflective of the west than Funakoshi's karate was. It's a completely different mindset, and cultures leave their mark on the art, just as the art leaves its mark on the person. [/quote]

    If you want to learn a traditional Asian art though, then by definition you can be expected to adopt Asian concepts and customs.

    While I agree that your lineage does not automatically mean that you are a superior fighter, the lineage is important in recognizing the foundations of the art. In doing so, it helps to understand the art itself.

    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    You're fu(king up my chi

  15. #60
    Wongsifu Guest
    1. In CMA people tend to think that lineage is the most important thing and that if your lineage is good than your individual practice will be better than that of someone with a not so clear line. Do Karate practitioners think like this to?
    -----------------------------------
    ive noticed generally karate practitioners dont think like this but the difference in lineage in karate is far greater than difference in lineage of kung fu.
    reason being modern karate was generally ""founded"" by funakoshi you could say about 100 odd years ago (this is a wrong explanation but it will suffice for my example)

    If you take wado ryu style the head head was hironori otsuka
    if you take kyokushinkai it was mas oyama
    if you take goju ryu i believe it was higaonna (i could be wrong here again) or gogen yamauchi.

    these people generally died only 30 or 40 years ago so the roots of these martial arts are 1 generation away. So tracing a kosher lineage can be done if you are dedicated, I could go and learn from one of their top students nowadays. however look at kung fu , there are 4000000,0000000 practitioners who all claim their grandfather is the sole carrier of the style , and the roots are 5-10 generations away , not 1 generation so the deeper back the martial art is traced to the more is lost.
    I have heard so many things about who is the most kosher tai ji player nowadays im sick of all of this cr@p and the truth is just when i tohught someone like chen xiaowang was the guy to look up to , i learn from somenone that there are chen players in mongolia which are better than in actual chenjiagou village. And that there is a lost chen style chin na that is actually unknown from chenjiagou but it exists in mongolia.


    2. Is most Karate interchangable? Can a practitioner of Shotokan switch to another style with no problems as far as principles?

    yes and no think of it as switching between types of tai ji , sun style to wu style large frame to small frame etc etc . same style different principles but at the same time same principle different style.

    some karate is very soft whereas others is very hard.


    3. Is there any emphasis on leaning low stances like in some kungfu or are the stances higher?

    generally a good practitioner of traditional not sport karate will have the same main stances as gong fu, horse stance cat stance bow and arrow stance , some do it high some do it low.


    4. What is the most important aspect of Karate fighting?

    depends on stlye , but as budokan said , one punch should have the power to kill a block should have the power to break bones. however this is as shallow as likening tai ji to a martial art that is for health.

    they have all the same principles as we have in kung fu only suited to them in different ways.

    in essence the only difference between kf and karate is that karate has less variety , i usually liken it to the body mechanics of hung gar with the internal of hsing yi

    This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

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