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Thread: The Hakka Arts

  1. #61
    moq-stop being a little ***et!

    your friend knew clc big deal, of course he wouldnt degrade his friend, he was more than likely doing opuim with him, how old is this so called friend buy the way. i told this story and i told you also that a pak mei teacher of clc lineage even backed me up on that statment.
    i have no attitude. "you cant handle the truth".

    billy you seem to be in his little ***et group as well. i get onto the internet and find this forum i think most topics are good. i put in a interesting statement which people should know about and they all go ballistic.
    i do not like to carry on, i will stop all this bickering with moq. the bottom line is cheung lai chun, lam yui gwai, they both did opuim.
    sorry to bring it up again! mo da

  2. #62
    CLOUD 1 Guest

    Fierce Tiger

    You use the phrase 'Mo da'
    Do you honestly believe that?
    These guys will not believe what you have got to say, so don't keep on. Can you honestly say that CLC's Kung Fu is Crap? You seem to Judge this man. Although you have never met him or studied his art, what makes your Pak Mei so good.
    It seems to me that you're stuck in your kung fu training. To try and learn from this forum is not a good way. Practise hard what you have been taught and the 'Dragon' will come. Have Faith!!!

  3. #63
    overdemon Guest

    [This message was edited by overdemon on 09-30-00 at 11:04 PM.]

  4. #64
    FIRE HAWK Guest

    Hakka Styles what hakka styles have you herd of?

    I have herd of Hakka southern mantis,Hakka southern Eagle Claw,Hakka Snake style,Hakka ox style,I am not sure if Pak Mei White eyebrow,Lung Ying Mor Kui,and Yau Kun mun,are completely hakka i am not sure on those styles.What other hakka styles have you herd of?

  5. #65
    FIRE HAWK Guest
    If i remember correctly Li Gar,Li Ga ,Li Ka, is a hakka style i think? there was a guy on here named Wilson that mentioned a hakka style called Dill Gar Gao.

  6. #66
    Shaolin Master Guest
    Hakka is a race. Thought a style that originated or belongs to somewhere else and then absorbed into Hakka could be called Hakka.....though this is like saying that tiger style in the hands of an american could be called US Tiger Fist ...but that would not be correct.....unfortunately that is what happened with Hakka styles....originally
    some say there is but one, San Bu Jin (Chu Gar)….but then even this is San Zhan which is traced to shaolin.

    Shi Chan Long

  7. #67
    FIRE HAWK Guest

    Ling Gar ,Li Gar Li Ka

    Ling Gar Ligar website i seen this sifu in a magazine and he said his style was hakka.

  8. #68
    FIRE HAWK Guest

    For got to put the website

  9. #69
    Lau Guest
    Any new insights on this story? I find this story much more likely than the 5 elders story.

    Regards, Lau

  10. #70
    handsome Guest
    Kevin--Great stuffs and just want to say "thank you". ;)

    For all the chow gar guys, you guys should wake up, the only true and original art of southern praying mantis is CHU GAR TONG LONG, not chow gar, chow gar was from Chu Gar ;) ;) please ask sifu GENE CHAN and he will give you the true history of southern praying mantis and why the chow gar was a mistake from the past, CHU is name, not chow, maybe its time for chow gar lineage change their name back to the original name CHU GAR TONG LONG. ;)

  11. #71
    mantis108 Guest

    Revisiting this thread

    Just some thoughts, I missed last time:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.[/quote]

    Guangdong is a province.
    Wai Yeung - I think is either the alias of the East River region or the name of a county. I will have to check on that. It is quite common that people and places have aliases in China. That's where the confusion comes in. The village that GM LYK was born in was call To Po Tau in Bor Low County.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).[/quote]

    Hoi Fung is also a place name. It is believed that Huang (Wong in Cantonese) might have been from or famous in Hoi Fung which is also alias of Chu Chou. It's sort of like the De or Van De in European convention. Name is a big thing in Chinese culture. The more Names (titles as well) you have the more "established or accomplished" you are.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a "Chung Yel Jung" - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui's lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called "the poisen snake" and Lung Ying's top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.[/quote]

    Huang Nian Jiao and Wong Fook Gao MIGHT very well be the same name with different pronounciations. This happens all the time. There are over hundred of dialects in China and to mention most of the time teaching are orally done. We might tend to think that old masters don't "cross train" but if we look closely at history...

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.[/quote]

    As far as my research goes, it were GM LYK's father and uncle who went to learn from Hoi Fung Si. GM CLC learned from GM LYK's uncle Lum Hop or sometime know as Lum "Ah" Hop. The "Ah" is a slang accent added in for names that are composed of 2 characters. It "sounds" better and more powerful for Cantonese. Technically, they were Sihingdei. I speculate that Sam Bo Tyui concept was from Wong. If we compare Lung Ying's Sup Luk Dong (16 Moves) and Bak Mei's Jik Bo (striaght Steps), we can see that there would some kind of a jong (on guard position) and then the left Bil Ji - right punch combo. Further more they are both taught as the novice first form. To me, it's kind of like the Boxing's 1-2 combo but in the Hakka arts it has more flare with same if not more efficiency. Just a thought.


    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  12. #72
    CLOUD ONE Guest


    could you clear up some thing?
    Was ClC a master of LungYing before he studied Pak Mei? If so what did he change in his LungYing to become PakMei? I don't want to have a flame war. I am seriously interested.

  13. #73
    FIRE HAWK Guest
    Bak Mei (White Eyebrow)

    One of the styles placing it's origins from the shaolin temple by the Monk Bak Mei. This art is often considered a traitors art because of the supposed actions of the monk that is said to cause the destruction of the shaolin temple. Bak Mei was said to have killed monk Jee Shim in some stories and was him self killed by one of the remain shaolin monks. Some do not believe this story and feel the story is altered from the truth. As most martial arts history the legends are often twisted or even entirely made up. What is passed down as history in Bak Mei is that master Cheung Lai Chun brought this art to the public after learning it from monk Chuk Fat Wan who had been a Daoist disciple at Kwang Wai temple at Sze Chuan where Bak Mei him self is said to have taught. He moved to Canton and came across Cheung Lai Chun who was already a master of Lee gar, Dragon(Lung Ying), and Gypsy style. After Being bested by a monk in a restaurant, Cheung followed the monk to his master and was able to persuade monk Chuk Fat Wan to teach him Bak Mei. In any case Bak Mei is a very effective style that uses powerful strikes and a triangular foot work common to many southern arts like Dragon style and Wing Chun. Although Bak Mei seems very external and powerful, it is not a truly hard style. The principle use both yin and yang to combine soft and hard. Power release is executed upon contact only. Much of Bak Mei's power comes from the back and is often utilized by their famous phoenix eye punch. Strikes are often aimed for softer areas or pressure points instead of smashing style blows that can be found in Hung Gar and other styles This system uses a combination of straight and circular attacks but the circular attacks are not as great as those of choy lee fut but can come from various angles. Training can be very intense utilizing body conditioning and weight training in the version I have seen. Strikes are fast and lethal and launched from a solid even weight distributed stance which is a wider than wing chun and utilizes a 50/50 stance work. I am slightly confused about the forms which are authentic Bak Mei and what sifu Cheung may have taught form his past training if anything. I have heard that they teach over 40 different forms by one source and I have visited another site that only lists about 20. In HB Un's Book Pak Mei Fung Fu, he says master Cheung learned several forms previously from Lee gar, Dragon Style, and Gypsy Style that have the same name as traditional Bak Mei. I don't know if they are the same or just have the same names. But some of the basic forms include Sup Jee (Cross pattern), Kou Bo Teaw (nine step push), Fancy Panther, Sup Bat Mor Kiu (18 ghost bridge), 7 point plum flower, and Tiger step movements. Sub Jee is usually considered a basic form that contains many of Bak Mei's key principles. Weapons include spear, staff, broad swords, bench, chain and various other weapons.

  14. #74
    WenJin Guest
    According to the link below :

    Lei Ga Kuen is very much a Hakka art! as well

    just for sake of completeness.

  15. #75
    Lau Guest
    Good to see that I'm not the only one who stay's interested in the real history of Pak Mei. Here are some of the questions I have on this:

    1 Did CLC create Pak Mei himself after learning art of Mor Kiu from Jook Fai Wan? Or did he learn the Pak Mei style from him?
    2 Who was Chung Yel Jung and what was his role?
    3 If, like Wilson quoted Dai, Yuk Sim Si and Jook Fai Wan are Si Hing Dai and they both teached the art of Mor Kui, it would mean that both have the same original forms. Are these original forms still to be found somewhere?

    Regards, Lau

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