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Thread: Mantak Chia or B.K. Frantzis?

  1. #16
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    What, did you think qigong turns people into Mother-Theresa-in-a-kung-fu-suit?
    Mmm, Mother Teresa in a KF suit would have been hot! Rowr (sexy cat noise ala Conan OBrien/Homer Simpson)
    Cut the tiny testicles off of both of these rich, out-of-touch sumbiches, crush kill and destroy the Electoral College, wipe clean from the Earth the stain of our corrupt politicians, and elect me as the new president. --Vash

  2. #17
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    Wow, this thread has been completely and inadvertently hijacked.

    I think TaiChiBob remarks are probably the most interesting angle on which to continue the derailment here.

    Should meditation and qigong, if practiced correctly, lead people to being more relaxed/less hostile in their day to day lives and interactions?

    I would argue for the affirmative here. Anything that becomes part of your routine that relieves stress and perhaps makes you more mindful of experience as it happens and more aware of your own contributions to conflict would, I think, naturally lead to being less abrasive. Meditation certainly fits this criteria. I would argue qigong (as I've experienced it) does as well.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  3. #18
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    Greetings..

    We are no less than what we have chosen to be.. if you choose to be aggressive and hostile then no amount of meditation will help (except possibly to focus that aggression a little more intensly)..

    It has been "my" experience that as one acquires higher levels of skill in the MA's they fear less.. the less one fears the more relaxed and confident they become.. aggression is a fear response..

    I suppose QJC is correct.. if one's intention is to be agressive, then by all means meditation will only support that evolutionary blunder..

    But, if one's intention is to refine the art of living, to expand awareness, to contribute to well-being of society at large.. then meditation can only help..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  4. #19
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    QJC

    Can you explian "IT" to me please, so that I can "GET IT".

    I think I had IT but then lost IT. I wasn't sure if I HAD IT at first so I read a bunch of books on Toaism and Buddhism and remember a story about the Buddha posture and what IT was and a monk being hit on the head for asking such a stupid question (the Buddha posture is what ever posture you're in silly) and I think I GOT IT then but aprantly not because I won't argue about IT.

    Hhhhmmmmm.

    As for Kuma (BK Ffrantzis), I've heard he is quite good AND big -- and this from the best fighter I know. Taiji Bob, have you ever played with him to call him low level? How do you judge someone's head space as well.

    He's quite succesfull, no? He must be doing something right.

  5. #20
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    EvolutionFist

    Greetings..

    Please reread my posts, i have made no commentary whatsoever regarding the quality of another practitioner's art.. i may, at times, comment on the aggressive or counter-productive attitudes displayed by those posting on these forums (based on the evidence provided by their own writings).. but, if i don't have direct experience with someone it would be invalid for me to comment about their qualities.. Even the published documentation about someone is insufficient for passing judgment, as the writer may be prejudiced.. Now, if the subjects themselves publish works that conflict with my own understanding, i may question their assertions.. but, seldom if ever, comment on their quality as a practitioner..

    As for being successful equating to being "right", those are seperate issues..

    I come to these forums with the sincere intention of sharing insights and experiences, not promoting a particular agenda, not to pump up my own ego, not to judge others.. we have chosen a profoundly deep and interesting and powerful Art (Taji), toward that end, "my" purpose is to improve myself and, hopefully, help others..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  6. #21
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    Sorry taijibob

    Guess I miss read this: "Frantzis should be avoided at all costs, he is of a low order."

    I read his famous book on taiji, hsing-I and ba gua, I thought it was pretty good.

    But my master tells me he came to Chinatown, NYC several years ago and had quite an easy time throwing the sifus around.

    He visited my master and after few rounds offered my master a draw: My master said, "No!"

    He asked why.

    My master said, "Reverse it."

    Kuma was a young man of about 325lbs to 350lbs at the time. At his heaviest my master was 180lbs. He's now a solid 145lbs at 62 years old.

    Anyway, my master said Kuma was pretty good -- and he doesn't say that often. He also says his Chinese is amazing, better than his.

    I never met Mr. Frantzis but would like to one day. I respect what he has done, going off like a hippie to study abroad and find the real deal ... And I think it's rough fighting traffic for an hour into Chinatown.

    The story ends with Kuma coming back up stairs after he left and thanking my teacher. He was able to push my master around the room, but only afterwards realised my master held his strikes at that half beat after riding the push out. He sounds likes an interesting guy.

  7. #22
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    Frantzis

    is the bane of many respected Masters, and has a pretty sh1tty attitude to boot. He was famous getting his ass kicked by well respected Masters in mainland China by being disrespectful to them and then trying to worm his way back into their schools. Plus a lot of his personal information about who and how long he studied with certain masters is very dubious.
    I've read his book too and yes it does sound good that because he has refused to put all the bad information in there too, so you are onlyt getting half the story with that book.
    There is no doubt that he has some skills, and too be honest I think his Bagua is his strong point, but he has a crap attitude and so do some of his senior students in the UK too when I have studied with them.
    I mean he praises Wang Shu-jin in his book but he fails to recount why he stopped studying with him,namely because of the famous crotch kicking incident out of the blue when Wang was teaching a class. Wang did a hammer fist to Frantzis's skull and knocked him out which if he hadn't of held back would of killed him. When he came to a couple of students told him to leave and not to come back again as he was no longer a student a Wang's anymore.
    There are many other stories about him being disrespectful and ending up with his arse in a sling.
    I recently got hold of Robert Smith's "Martial Musings" and its so obvious that he is refering to Frantzis in the section at the end where he recounts his experiences with "MR. X".
    Frantzis and his reputation is a perrenial topic on here and a year or so ago there was a lot more recent information on him too.
    Again he has some skill but even the picture of the front of his "famous" 3 internal arts book it rigged, due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms.
    There are much better people around to study from than Frantzis.
    " Don't confuse yourself with someone who has something to say " - The Fall

    " I do not like your tone/ It has ephemeral whingeing aspects " - The Fall

    " There are twelve people in the world/ The rest are paste " - Mark E Smith

  8. #23
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    Meditation: read "three pillars of zen" by Roshi Philip Kapleau. the best step-by-step book on zen meditation (and the reasons why one should do it at all..)

  9. #24
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    Re: QJC

    Originally posted by EvolutionFist
    Can you explian "IT" to me please, so that I can "GET IT".
    Well, that's where things get difficult... It's like music. If you're tone-deaf, you won't get it. If you're out of tune, you can't know the difference between meditation and self-supressing mental masturbation and will be locked in the latter.
    Last edited by QuaiJohnCain; 10-11-2003 at 11:41 AM.

  10. #25
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    Hmm,
    Looks like I'm the only one to have studied with these guys. I learned some of Chia's stuff on his first US tour a long time ago. I was with Kumar (Gu Ma if your thinking of the Chinese) for many years. I think his neigong is more practical than Chia's especially for martial artists. I'm not with him any longer (prefer Luo Dexiu) but he was a pug in the day. He doesn't really do martial arts any more and most of his current crop of teachers don't understand his stuff. Most, there are a couple. If you are speaking about him negatively from personal experience, more power to you. If you are just parroting others opinions, thats bad form. And RM, quoting Rbt Smith? Come on. Smith likes the sound of his own voice. His examples of Gao bagua from his first book are the worst I've seen... mm maybe.
    Buddy

  11. #26
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    Don't say that P word. Let's be nice to long necked and lineaged now, you mean old *****.

  12. #27
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    Repulsive wrote:

    "Frantzis
    is the bane of many respected Masters, and has a pretty sh1tty attitude to boot. He was famous getting his ass kicked by well respected Masters in mainland China by being disrespectful to them and then trying to worm his way back into their schools."

    Lose to some of the best. Learn from some of the best.

    "Plus a lot of his personal information about who and how long he studied with certain masters is very dubious."

    It's better than RW Smith laying claim to what he had learned rather than time spent. Kumar at least has "It".

    "I've read his book too and yes it does sound good that because he has refused to put all the bad information in there too, so you are onlyt getting half the story with that book."

    Kumar has never denied he was a not so benevolent student.

    "There is no doubt that he has some skills, and too be honest I think his Bagua is his strong point, but he has a crap attitude and so do some of his senior students in the UK too when I have studied with them."

    He has serious skills. Don't know his UK students.

    "I mean he praises Wang Shu-jin in his book but he fails to recount why he stopped studying with him,namely because of the famous crotch kicking incident out of the blue when Wang was teaching a class. Wang did a hammer fist to Frantzis's skull and knocked him out which if he hadn't of held back would of killed him. When he came to a couple of students told him to leave and not to come back again as he was no longer a student a Wang's anymore."

    Maybe deep down he had to know the truth. Better than just alluding to it, no?

    "There are many other stories about him being disrespectful and ending up with his arse in a sling."

    He doesn't deny it.

    "I recently got hold of Robert Smith's "Martial Musings" and its so obvious that he is refering to Frantzis in the section at the end where he recounts his experiences with "MR. X"."

    Too funny, Smith is about as reliable as the weather report. Kumar has "It" and has proven "It". What does smith have?
    I sweeping literary style and nose for the punchline. If he was as good with his hands as a pen? He'd be legendary.

    "Frantzis and his reputation is a perrenial topic on here and a year or so ago there was a lot more recent information on him too.
    Again he has some skill but even the picture of the front of his "famous" 3 internal arts book it rigged, due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms.
    There are much better people around to study from than Frantzis"

    But you wouldn't know. Despit Frantzis's rather portly demeanor, he has power.
    "due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms." You can tell all that from a picture? You're good!

    I don't much care for what I've heard about Kumar. I do know his Chi-Gung and Nei-Gung to be very good through experience. A few good and one case great Ma have commented to this effect.

    Again, I'm not a big fan of Mr. Frantzis, but to parade a hack journalist CIA guy's opinion as your own isn't too objective.
    Go see Kumar for yourself, talk to him and report back.
    Go see Smith too. Some may consider Kumar a "has been", but I'd rather be that than a "never was" like perhaps Mr. Smith may be.

    I like how Smith gets all indignant on the page, but never did anything about it. If he didn't like Mr. X, he certainly could have done more than ***** about it in a thirty dollar book 20 yrs. later? Right?

  13. #28
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    Repulsive wrote:

    "Frantzis
    is the bane of many respected Masters, and has a pretty sh1tty attitude to boot. He was famous getting his ass kicked by well respected Masters in mainland China by being disrespectful to them and then trying to worm his way back into their schools."

    Lose to some of the best. Learn from some of the best.

    "Plus a lot of his personal information about who and how long he studied with certain masters is very dubious."

    It's better than RW Smith laying claim to what he had learned rather than time spent. Kumar at least has "It".

    "I've read his book too and yes it does sound good that because he has refused to put all the bad information in there too, so you are onlyt getting half the story with that book."

    Kumar has never denied he was a not so benevolent student.

    "There is no doubt that he has some skills, and too be honest I think his Bagua is his strong point, but he has a crap attitude and so do some of his senior students in the UK too when I have studied with them."

    He has serious skills. Don't know his UK students.

    "I mean he praises Wang Shu-jin in his book but he fails to recount why he stopped studying with him,namely because of the famous crotch kicking incident out of the blue when Wang was teaching a class. Wang did a hammer fist to Frantzis's skull and knocked him out which if he hadn't of held back would of killed him. When he came to a couple of students told him to leave and not to come back again as he was no longer a student a Wang's anymore."

    Maybe deep down he had to know the truth. Better than just alluding to it, no?

    "There are many other stories about him being disrespectful and ending up with his arse in a sling."

    He doesn't deny it.

    "I recently got hold of Robert Smith's "Martial Musings" and its so obvious that he is refering to Frantzis in the section at the end where he recounts his experiences with "MR. X"."

    Too funny, Smith is about as reliable as the weather report. Kumar has "It" and has proven "It". What does smith have?
    I sweeping literary style and nose for the punchline. If he was as good with his hands as a pen? He'd be legendary.

    "Frantzis and his reputation is a perrenial topic on here and a year or so ago there was a lot more recent information on him too.
    Again he has some skill but even the picture of the front of his "famous" 3 internal arts book it rigged, due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms.
    There are much better people around to study from than Frantzis"

    But you wouldn't know. Despit Frantzis's rather portly demeanor, he has power.
    "due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms." You can tell all that from a picture? You're good!

    I don't much care for what I've heard about Kumar. I do know his Chi-Gung and Nei-Gung to be very good through experience. A few good and one case great Ma have commented to this effect.

    Again, I'm not a big fan of Mr. Frantzis, but to parade a hack journalist CIA guy's opinion as your own isn't too objective.
    Go see Kumar for yourself, talk to him and report back.
    Go see Smith too. Some may consider Kumar a "has been", but I'd rather be that than a "never was" like perhaps Mr. Smith may be.

    I like how Smith gets all indignant on the page, but never did anything about it. If he didn't like Mr. X, he certainly could have done more than ***** about it in a thirty dollar book 20 yrs. later? Right?

  14. #29
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    A Contribution On-Topic

    I don't know anyone personally to get involved in slagging.

    I have just recently begun learning Frantzis's Opening the Energy Gates set with a teacher and I find that I am enjoying it and there definitely seems to be something to it. If you have a decent teacher (and it is almost averred on the Energy Arts web site that not all of the certified teachers are good; at least there is a disclaimer about it...), they will cover easily more than twice or three times what is in the book.

    The guy teaching this class almost always refers to combat applications when teaching the chi gung, too, which I like. Many experienced Tai Chi guys come to him from other schools to learn the chi gung, but around here, most of them think of Tai Chi as a New Age dance, and some of the talk about combat seems to upset some of them. Most people just want to meditate.

    This teacher insists that before he teaches anyone bagua (or other internal arts) that they must have some chi gung/nei gung background (and he doesn't care from where). That's why I'm learning it now; he seems to be the only instructor in the area who talks about actually fighting, so why not?

    I'm brand-spanking new to this whole martial arts thing, and it's what I do with the money I saved from quitting smoking.

    For my old fogey-ness, I find that the philosophy of the water method appeals to me, and I am skeptical of the supposed long term damage that fire method/pranayama stuff can do, as claimed in some of Frantzis's books. Nevertheless, I think he's a good writer with a lot to say.

    Don't know much about Mantak Chia to pronounce one way or the other.

  15. #30
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    Kudos to you for finding out for yourself.
    Kumar's chi and nei-gung have brought me nothing
    but good health, great flexibility and helped me to really
    align my body. I am physiologically far more structured and "open" than when I started.

    I was a walking bag of nagging injuries before. I may not like
    a lot of Kumar's stuff , nor agree with many of his theories, but the Gung he teaches is a true jewel IMHO.

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