View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13861
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    Addendum..

    "I'm not by any means a scholar on mantis,"

    Forget about achieving "scholar" status...you are not even MINIMALLY knowledgeable!



    " but to make blanket statements about the origins of "Mantis""

    If you are implying that my style of mantis is fake or not legit..I'd be all too happy to give you a detailed history with dates, names,etc.


    "without recognizing the obvious differences, and sources, in Northern and Southern Mantis, would tend to make one sound ignorant of Kung Fu in general.""


    Again..I resent the implication there! I think it would behoove you to talk less, find a legit school with a credible history..sans controversy and start again from scratch. And it begs the question..there have certainly got to be other schools without such controversy and disparate and flat out false claims made in the state of Tennessee. Yet you continue to stay where you are. It's like you get off on making things more difficult for yourself!

  2. #13862
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    LTN, welcome to the discussion. It's obvious what your opinion is on SD, and it's one that has been echoed continually on this thread. I take no offense to it. I've spoken and met and sparred with people that share your opinion. What I don't get is your immediate demand to "LOCK THE THREAD." Why do you have a problem with people discussing the merits, or demerits, of a marital arts system? Free discussion is what makes this country, and these threads, great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  3. #13863
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    Judge Pen,


    "" What I don't get is your immediate demand to "LOCK THE THREAD." "

    I don't believe I used the word "demand" anywhere.


    "Why do you have a problem with people discussing the merits, or demerits, of a marital arts system?"

    I don't have a problem with it. I DO have an issue with radical historical revisionism which is then promoted as fact. There is no record of Su Kong training at Shaolin(either the Northern or Southern temple be it the ones which were burned to the ground by the Manchu troops..or the ones in existence today).



    "Free discussion is what makes this country, and these threads, great. "

    Indeed. And with free discussion comes the dissenting opinion. For the record..if..a style such as "Oom Young Do"(with it's completely false explanation of how the Ba Gua style began and numerous other innacuracies) enjoyed something like 13,000 plus responses..I'd have an issue with it too(esp. since so much of what they promote as historical fact is false) and I would just the same if "Temple Kung Fu--the Moh style" as promoted by "Grandmaster"(?) Simon Olaf also had 13,000 plus responses(for the same reason..esp. when Olaf himself supposedly lost a lawsuit in which he admitted he never had the training in which he claimed).

  4. #13864
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    Is Shaolin-Do for real?

    No.

    There, can we move on now?


  5. #13865
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    Judge Pen,


    "" What I don't get is your immediate demand to "LOCK THE THREAD." "

    I don't believe I used the word "demand" anywhere.


    "Why do you have a problem with people discussing the merits, or demerits, of a marital arts system?"

    I don't have a problem with it. I DO have an issue with radical historical revisionism which is then promoted as fact. There is no record of Su Kong training at Shaolin(either the Northern or Southern temple be it the ones which were burned to the ground by the Manchu troops..or the ones in existence today).



    "Free discussion is what makes this country, and these threads, great. "

    Indeed. And with free discussion comes the dissenting opinion. For the record..if..a style such as "Oom Young Do"(with it's completely false explanation of how the Ba Gua style began and numerous other innacuracies) enjoyed something like 13,000 plus responses..I'd have an issue with it too(esp. since so much of what they promote as historical fact is false) and I would just the same if "Temple Kung Fu--the Moh style" as promoted by "Grandmaster"(?) Simon Olaf also had 13,000 plus responses(for the same reason..esp. when Olaf himself supposedly lost a lawsuit in which he admitted he never had the training in which he claimed).
    "For the love of all that is good and holy!!

    Gene(or any moderator for that matter). PLEASE lock this thread!"

    My bad, you said, in all caps, "PLEASE lock this thread." It was the "For the love of all that is good and holy" that was the demanding part in my eyes. Regardless a request to lock a thread that has led to both trivial and thoughful exchanges of people with different view points is a bit extreme in my mind. This forum in general, and this thread in particular, has led me to some life long frineds from other styles and helped me define and articulate to myself the art in which I trained for over 20 years. Granted not everyone here has displayed an open mind, but many others have and it's been a beneficial dialouge on the whole.

    As far as comparing SD to CMD or OYD or whatever it is calling itself now, other than some grossly unverified histories the comparision ends there. I've read "Hearding the Moo" and SD's teachers, at least here in Tennessee, Virginia, Georgia and Kentucky where I have trained, are not anything like what I've read in that book. Some people believe the history hook, line and sinker. Some do not. In the end it doesn't matter if you are getting a great workout and learning how to defend yourself. SD unquestionably does both of those things and does it well with a good instructor.

    I wish you well in your training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  6. #13866
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    Excellent, JP.

  7. #13867
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    "For the love of all that is good and holy" that was the demanding part in my eyes."


    Well w/out intentionlly bringing theology into this..I suppose that we look at "good and holy" in a different light. Fair enough. And yep..I did ask Gene to lock the thread. But "demand" to have it locked? No sir.



    "Regardless a request to lock a thread that has led to both trivial and thoughful exchanges of people with different view points is a bit extreme in my mind."

    Ever consider that my request to have the thread halted is because history shows that two camps of opposing views, when put into the same..I would say "room"..but "forum" in this case will suffice..tend to dig in their heels and become even more polarized? And for the 13 pages(perhaps more?) that this as gone on for..has there been any reconciliation of opposites? Does it need to go on for another 13 pages of one side saying "Yeah..it's real" while the other side begs to differ?



    "This forum in general, and this thread in particular, has led me to some life long frineds from other styles and helped me define and articulate to myself the art in which I trained for over 20 years."

    Well that's always good. And if you feel that you've gotten something valuable to stay with SD for 2 decades..then Bravo!



    "Granted not everyone here has displayed an open mind, but many others have and it's been a beneficial dialouge on the whole."


    I cannot speak for anyone but myself. I've looked at the statements made by Sin Kwang The and those of the SD organization. And after looking at the historical timeline of Shaolin and with the dates of the diaspora of Su Kong to Indonesia..there is a disparity there. I bear no ill will towards Su Kong, but that doesn't mean that I can't find his claims untenable now does it?

    "As far as comparing SD to CMD or OYD or whatever it is calling itself now, other than some grossly unverified histories the comparision ends there."

    Do I detect that you are saying that OYD is "grossly unverified" and yet SD is not?


    "Some do not. In the end it doesn't matter if you are getting a great workout and learning how to defend yourself."

    Brothers and sisters..can I get an AMEN?! However, that still does not mean I need to buy the claims of Sin Kwang The.


    "I wish you well in your training. "

    Likewise

  8. #13868
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    For JP and LTN: Maybe "Later" is not better than "Never"

    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    "For the love of all that is good and holy" that was the demanding part in my eyes."


    Well w/out intentionlly bringing theology into this..I suppose that we look at "good and holy" in a different light. Fair enough. And yep..I did ask Gene to lock the thread. But "demand" to have it locked? No sir.



    "Regardless a request to lock a thread that has led to both trivial and thoughful exchanges of people with different view points is a bit extreme in my mind."

    Ever consider that my request to have the thread halted is because history shows that two camps of opposing views, when put into the same..I would say "room"..but "forum" in this case will suffice..tend to dig in their heels and become even more polarized? And for the 13 pages(perhaps more?) that this as gone on for..has there been any reconciliation of opposites? Does it need to go on for another 13 pages of one side saying "Yeah..it's real" while the other side begs to differ?



    "This forum in general, and this thread in particular, has led me to some life long frineds from other styles and helped me define and articulate to myself the art in which I trained for over 20 years."

    Well that's always good. And if you feel that you've gotten something valuable to stay with SD for 2 decades..then Bravo!



    "Granted not everyone here has displayed an open mind, but many others have and it's been a beneficial dialouge on the whole."


    I cannot speak for anyone but myself. I've looked at the statements made by Sin Kwang The and those of the SD organization. And after looking at the historical timeline of Shaolin and with the dates of the diaspora of Su Kong to Indonesia..there is a disparity there. I bear no ill will towards Su Kong, but that doesn't mean that I can't find his claims untenable now does it?

    "As far as comparing SD to CMD or OYD or whatever it is calling itself now, other than some grossly unverified histories the comparision ends there."

    Do I detect that you are saying that OYD is "grossly unverified" and yet SD is not?


    "Some do not. In the end it doesn't matter if you are getting a great workout and learning how to defend yourself."

    Brothers and sisters..can I get an AMEN?! However, that still does not mean I need to buy the claims of Sin Kwang The.


    "I wish you well in your training. "

    Likewise
    JP:

    If I may, it appears you are valiantly and quite reasonably trying to discuss something rationally with someone who's mind is so made up, Su Kong could come back and tell his story personally with a Power Point presentation, and he still wouldn't believe it. Ancient scrolls could reveal the existence and presence of Su Kong at Shaolin (hyphenated or not) and he'd find a way to call them fakes. Nor would it matter if 10 SD students competed against 10 non-SD students of like experience, and compared results, even if the SD students surpassed the non-SD's in any area.

    We know that, true or false, SD has no monopoly on legends that are unverifiable. Consider the following, reciting the history and lineage of Tongbei Quan, "a traditional martial art with a long history:"

    "The legend tells of an old an famous martial artist named Yuan Gong who lived during the Spring and Autumn Time around 500 BC. He had white hair and a white beard and always wore white clothes. Having challenged another master to a fight, Yuan lost and was transformed into a white ape, whereupon he fled into the forest. Known as Baiyan Laoren, which means 'old man like a white ape' or 'claimed to be the white ape in human form,' he was believed to be an immortal ape who always taught his skill in secret. Of course this story, not surprisingly, was viewed with widespread skepticism by most people, but it is also a familiar tale far and wide. . . . Although most people preserve this legend, they do not really believe it."

    Lu, Shengli, "Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua," published by Yin Cheng Gong Fa Association, and Blue Snake Books, Berkely, CA (2006), p. 103.

    Yet, I have no less respect for Tongbei Quan or its students because any of its students tell, retell, or believe that story. Or if one of them told me, "I wasn't there, but this is the legend I was told by my teachers," I'd respect it no less, if in fact it was effective for them, which apparently it is.

    Many will call the stories lies, because they can't be proven, although the detractors also can't disprove it. And therefore discredit the product, and the practitioner. As you have more eloquently said, "Who cares? Practice and therefore benefit, or go somewhere else."

    The funny part being, it is nothing new: the same point was made in a published letter to the editor in Inside Kung-Fu Magazine if I remember correctly, responding to a published critic of GMT and SD, in 1983 if I'm not mistaken, an issue I still have since I know the author. He wants to "lock the thread"? The "thread" has been going since before there was an Internet.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  9. #13869
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    Onestudent,

    "For JP and LTN: Maybe "Later" is not better than "Never""

    Wow..you really zinged me there!! I may never recover!!! Oh this is just awful....



    "Su Kong could come back and tell his story personally with a Power Point presentation, and he still wouldn't believe it. "


    Uuhhhh..allrightie then!



    "Ancient scrolls could reveal the existence and presence of Su Kong at Shaolin (hyphenated or not) and he'd find a way to call them fakes."

    Well onestudent..that's all the difference in the world now isn't it? You can talk about "this could be" and "that could be" until Sin Kwangs' bones are replenishing the phosphorus in the soil. Alot of things in the world "could be"..yet they are not.
    And when the days comes that an "ancient scroll" comes up documenting this..then..well..I guess I will owe the SD folks an apology. But it has not happened yet and I don't think it is going to. Surely a monk with hair all over his face and body would stand out among the other monks now wouldn't he? And a monk w/ hair all over his face and body would definitely be someone in the history books, ancient scrolls(or whatever) would be at least mentioned once right? So too, would a hairy monk who achieved the title of "Grandmaster of Shaolin".(the latter being my main issue. I'm sure that Su Kong himself existed..I don't buy the Grandmaster title..esp. since Grandmaster refers to the current leader of a style of kung fu. Shaolin as we all know(perhaps minus the SD folks) is a PLACE).
    Last edited by LaterthanNever; 10-08-2011 at 01:46 PM.

  10. #13870

    Shaolin Do

    Hello folks, I am new to posting on this forum and new to Shaolin Do. It is interesting how "Everyone" seems to know immediately that SD is fake without even trying it out at least past first black level. I myself have been training SD now for about two months, or going on two months, and am still at white level because my instructor wants me to learn the material and the application properly. After seeing some of the youtube stuff I agree. Why I chose SD is partly because of my reception at the school when I arrived to look it over and partly due to the fact that the only other thing offered was karate and tae kwon do, the instructor there also demanded I sign a contract before even watching a class!
    SD was totally different, and there was no talk of money until after I participated in about three classes and approached the instructor asking for membership. I have the utmost respect for all martial arts, and my instructor first of all.
    It is hard to believe the angst that folks have against SD, I have been reading this thread for the past several months in my spare time, and while there are some meaningful posts most of the replies are nothing but empty challenges and poorly composed puns. Judge Pen seems to be the most adequately equipped person on this forum to reply to some of the statements that have been made. Facepalm also deserves a pat on the back for showing some of the honor that we are taught to GOju in accepting a challenge and following through it.
    I would like to learn more about SD, as well as Hsing yi, mantis, Tai Chi, and others. I can't wait to find out where I will end up once I find what suits me as far as style.
    As Far as SD goes, I have discussed it with BJJ practitioners at my workplace, and Taekwondo practitioners, the general consensus around here is that it is just forms. At my school forms are not the focus of our classes, conditioning is first for the beginners along with a short form and sparring techniques and self defense. What I was really surprised by was the sparring that we did during my first class. That is the linking pin in our school, we are taught the forms as well as their application then we are given the opportunity to use them and the sparring techniques in medium to light contact sparring.
    I don't know about other schools or styles but this is just what we do, and I do enjoy it as well as the conditioning as I can feel my body slowly changing due to the conditioning.
    Judge Pen, thank you for your responses in favor of SD. Through all the darkness that has been the replies on this thread you and a few others have been really helpful in showing what we are taught. As far as the other repliers go, One can easily see that they are taught in their posts; sad really. TTFN

  11. #13871
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    Quote Originally Posted by nautavac View Post
    Hello folks, I am new to posting on this forum and new to Shaolin Do. It is interesting how "Everyone" seems to know immediately that SD is fake without even trying it out at least past first black level. I myself have been training SD now for about two months, or going on two months, and am still at white level because my instructor wants me to learn the material and the application properly. After seeing some of the youtube stuff I agree. Why I chose SD is partly because of my reception at the school when I arrived to look it over and partly due to the fact that the only other thing offered was karate and tae kwon do, the instructor there also demanded I sign a contract before even watching a class!
    SD was totally different, and there was no talk of money until after I participated in about three classes and approached the instructor asking for membership. I have the utmost respect for all martial arts, and my instructor first of all.
    It is hard to believe the angst that folks have against SD, I have been reading this thread for the past several months in my spare time, and while there are some meaningful posts most of the replies are nothing but empty challenges and poorly composed puns. Judge Pen seems to be the most adequately equipped person on this forum to reply to some of the statements that have been made. Facepalm also deserves a pat on the back for showing some of the honor that we are taught to GOju in accepting a challenge and following through it.
    I would like to learn more about SD, as well as Hsing yi, mantis, Tai Chi, and others. I can't wait to find out where I will end up once I find what suits me as far as style.
    As Far as SD goes, I have discussed it with BJJ practitioners at my workplace, and Taekwondo practitioners, the general consensus around here is that it is just forms. At my school forms are not the focus of our classes, conditioning is first for the beginners along with a short form and sparring techniques and self defense. What I was really surprised by was the sparring that we did during my first class. That is the linking pin in our school, we are taught the forms as well as their application then we are given the opportunity to use them and the sparring techniques in medium to light contact sparring.
    I don't know about other schools or styles but this is just what we do, and I do enjoy it as well as the conditioning as I can feel my body slowly changing due to the conditioning.
    Judge Pen, thank you for your responses in favor of SD. Through all the darkness that has been the replies on this thread you and a few others have been really helpful in showing what we are taught. As far as the other repliers go, One can easily see that they are taught in their posts; sad really. TTFN
    Having been a former SD student myself, I can attest to the atmosphere and dedication of many of the instructors there. Many of my friends still practice SD and they are fine martial artists. The controversy and the problem that people have with SD is that they claim to teach, and use the name Shaolin. LTN is right in his statement that someone who stands out so much like SKTD would be a legend at Shaolin and be in the history books. If he accomplished what SD says that he did, then that would have been a major thing. I don't think that there is any monk out there that has ever learned all of the forms and techniques of the Temple. There are many Shaolin masters that are in the history books and others research of Shaolin for less than what SKTD supposedly did. Now if SKT had kept his Sin Kwang The Karate school like it says on the belt certificates or called it a Shaolin inspired system, then there probably wouldn't be a controversy. Anyway, that being said, people need to find a martial art that fits them and if they like and are comfortable with SD then fine. But on the same token SD should stop telling people that they teach tradaitional Shaolin Kung Fu and that the forms they are learning were taught at the Temple because they were not. This misleads people but then SD is not the only art that does this, there are others.

  12. #13872
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    "Having been a former SD student myself, I can attest to the atmosphere and dedication of many of the instructors there."

    For the record, I don't have any doubt that those who study there are passionate. Same applies to the dedication of the instructors. And if studying SD keeps people off the street, away from drugs, instills a better self image, increased self confidence,etc.etc...then that's great!


    "Many of my friends still practice SD and they are fine martial artists."

    See above

    "The controversy and the problem that people have with SD is that they claim to teach, and use the name Shaolin."

    Your parents should be congratulated for raising such rational children. If the Shaolin temples were never rebuilt after they were torched..and there was no current Shaolin temple today..and to be thorough..lets say that whatever records of who studied there were burned to a crisp, that would be a different story. But that is not the case. And if SD claims were as legit as they claim, you can bet the farm that the current Shaolin ABBOTT(the correct title..not grandmaster) would be corroborating Sin Kwangs claims. But we live in a world that is just the click of a mouse away. It's so incredibly easy to be UN-ignorant these days.


    "I don't think that there is any monk out there that has ever learned all of the forms and techniques of the Temple. "

    Indeed. Especially since so many dozens(perhaps even hundreds as I have been told) of styles and sub-systems are dead/extinct. As for learning 900 forms? Ask a man like GM Doc Fai Wong..who very well may know the most ammount of Choy Li Fut forms in the world..if it were possible to learn 900 forms..and let me know his reaction(I'd guess that he'd either laugh, accuse you of being on drugs or something pretty close).


    "Now if SKT had kept his Sin Kwang The Karate school like it says on the belt certificates or called it a Shaolin inspired system, then there probably wouldn't be a controversy. Anyway, that being said, people need to find a martial art that fits them and if they like and are comfortable with SD then fine."

    There you go..that would be much more reasonable.


    "But on the same token SD should stop telling people that they teach tradaitional Shaolin Kung Fu and that the forms they are learning were taught at the Temple because they were not. This misleads people but then SD is not the only art that does this, there are others. "

    As I stated..there is some misleading statements and confusion here. For instance..one of the styles that SD claims to teach is Mantis. Yet when I look at their syllabus..I see only one actual FORM of mantis. I don't believe any style of kung fu has only one form..not even Wing Chun which has only 3 hand forms.

    If SD claimed to teach mantis..it would be more accurate to say that teach "a mantis kung fu form"...NOT A STYLE. If their mantis syllabus looked like this, then I'd say that's valid:



    Tam Tui
    Gung Lik Kune (Strength Building)
    Sop Say Lo (14 Roads)
    Sam Choi Gim (3 Attainment Sword)
    Jeet Ng Mui Far Dao (5th Meridian Plum Blossom Broadsword)
    Chut Sing Gan (7 Star Canes)
    Bung Bo (Crushing Step)
    Bung Bo Demonstration
    Sap Baat Sao (18 Elders)
    Dao Gung (Avoiding Hardness)
    Hok Fu Chiao Gar (Black Tiger Cross/ Black Tiger Intercept)
    Da Fan Che (Big Wheel Fist)
    Chaap Choy (Stabbing Fist)
    6 Harmony Staff
    Tow Far San Doy Da
    6 Harmonies Staff
    2nd Essential Fist

  13. #13873
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    Quote Originally Posted by nautavac View Post
    I myself have been training SD now for about two months, or going on two months, and am still at white level because my instructor wants me to learn the material and the application properly.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  14. #13874
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    What's your opinion of this

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZwZf8IUytuY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Personally I like it.

  15. #13875
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    Red face Still at it

    Glad to see all of you are still at it. A difference here and there is normal. The Tang Lang we do in SD has Cond ex , springy leg Tech Jade ring Tech Forms and much more including specific 2 man drills as well KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

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