View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #76
    SanHeChuan Guest
    so where does Hiang teach and what styles does he teach? do he have a web site? 100+ form still seems like alot.

    "Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

  2. #77
    Talon Guest
    Hiang teaches in Ky. His homebase is Lexington and there are students of his teaching in various parts of central and eastern Ky.
    His specialty is a type of bird called tai peng I think (should probably verify that with someone more in the know).
    100+ forms is a huge amount, too much for me to be honest. But in all fairness to the system, I have seen quite a few other styles that have way more than that. I have heard of a style of praying mantis (it was either seven star or 8 step Im not sure) that has 120 empty hand forms alone! Not to mention the weapons. Choy li fut comes to mind as another style that has a lot of forms (close to 200 is what I've heard on various occasions).

  3. #78
    Radhnoti Guest
    Just a quick update, Hiang The' has declared himself to be the Grandmaster of CHUNG YEN SHAOLIN. The forms are exactly the same as what is taught in Shaolin-Do, there are still belts, and a gi. :cool:
    Hope he does well. If anyone wants the website, I got this from I'll try to post it...especially if someone explains how to do it. :)

    -Radhnoti

  4. #79
    SanHeChuan Guest
    to post the web site just type the ULR (web address) it's nothing special

    "Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

  5. #80
    Inquisitor Guest

    LMAO - Radhnoti

    ==============================
    Sheesh Inquisitor, I didn't expect you to fall apart like that. Was it because I liked Falcor's arguement? Sue me, I like it when people use small words and analogies to bring about a revelation.
    --------------------

    Hah okay, I don't know where you got that I somehow "fell apart," but if you say so... And your reply to Falcor's post was typical to your, shall we say, "style" of writing. You disregarded the whole point of his argument and went on a tangent.


    --------------------
    "And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations."
    So, it's ok for you to say you can't prove anything, but I need to produce some sort of documentation? I don't think (though I may be wrong...this has been a long discussion) I ever said nothing new had been incorporated into Shaolin-Do.
    --------------------


    No, it is not okay for me not to prove something. The whole point that I was trying to make (and you so deftly avoided) was that I had already proven certain things, such as the fact that Sin The's lineage cannot be substantiated. Go look back in my previous posts. I said something like "No one has ever heard of Su Kong Tai Djin or Ie Chang Ming, and no one can vouch for the skill of Sin The." Also, your little trick to use say that you never said that anything new wasn't incorporated into Shaolin-Do... I have news for you: the fact that you never said that nothing new was incorporated into Shaolin-Do doesn't change the basis of the argument being made. "GRANDMASTER" SIN THE CLAIMS TO HAVE THE SUM OF ALL KNOWLEDGE OF SHAOLIN KUNGFU. HE ALSO CLAIMS THAT HIS ONLY TEACHER IN THE CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS IS IE CHANG MING. IF THAT IS TRUE, WHY DOES HE TEACH NON-SHAOLIN FORMS? HOW CAN HE CLAIM THAT TAI CHI CHUAN, A STYLE DESCENDED FROM WUDANG, HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE? NOT ONLY THAT, BUT WHY IS THE TAI CHI THAT HE TEACHES INCONSISTENT WITH THE TRADITIONAL STYLES?
    Also, since one can prove that he got some of his vaunted "knowledge" from things such as books/videos/etc, could it not be viable that *all* of his knowledge stems from such materials?
    Hopefully the uppercase made things more clear for you.

    --------------------
    Obvious things would be the Japanese gi and belt system. You obviously know more about the history of Taiji...or maybe that was Brad, anyway, perhaps other peripheral things have been added. Isn't that what the Shaolin Temples did for centuries? Catalog and Incorporate styles and forms?
    --------------------


    Actually, I was the first one in this thread to point out that the Tai Chi Chuan being taught in Shaolin-Do was in fact non-traditional. Brad helped to clear things up by bringing in more details. Yes, but the way the Shaolin Temples did things were completely different from the way that Sin The is doing things. Okay, let's say that Sin The supposedly *did* somehow incorporate Tai Chi Chuan into the Shaolin-Do curriculum (hypothetical situation). If that were true, why does he use the modern wushu Tai Chi forms? Would it not be better for him to contact one of the traditional Tai Chi masters and learn from that person? Oh, of course not. He can just go buy a book and learn the forms from there. It'll be just as good as the original stuff! Give me a break. Again, you used faulty logic and tried to divert attention from the argument.


    --------------------
    "What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed."
    Yes, I'll try and live with the shame. All I can do is go on and try to live day to day. First, I don't think it's my "job" to defend Grandmaster Sin...and it's sort of pathetic if you think your "job" is to discredit him. Your posts were long, I broke down each point as I could and tried to respond with my admittedly amateurish responses.
    --------------------


    Blah blah blah blah blah. You took up the position of defending Shaolin-Do. When I and others presented you with arguments, you were supposed to defend against them. Just because I chose to use the word "job" does not detract from those facts. Also, if you did not think that it was important to you to defend "Grandmaster" Sin, then why did you start? Apparently you don't know how the human brain works. The only reason you would put time and effort into doing something like this would be because, on a certain level, Shaolin-Do (and hence, "Granmdaster" Sin) is important to you. And to claim that it is "pathetic" to be on my side of the fence... No comment.

    --------------------
    All in all, I feel I've given the best account of myself that someone who's been in a style for just 8 months might be expected to give. If you saying I'm a failure makes you feel better, good, this is an online forum with pseudonyms and you shouldn't feel bad, no matter what some joker writes about you or to you.
    --------------------


    Again, blah blah blah blah blah. You diverted the argument from the fact that you could not adequately defend Shaolin-Do to the idea that it is somehow wrong of me to point out that you failed. LoL and then you suddenly present the idea that it somehow makes me feel better (a.k.a. "helps my self-esteem" or "makes me a bigger man") by putting you down (which I did not)...

    --------------------
    "I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes."
    Fair enough, we can assume I'm a close minded psychotic, brain washed Sin The' chanting flunky. While YOU from your impartial view on high offered me truth and knowledge which, due to my indoctrination, I ignored. The fact is that I have listened to you, and I'll measure what I learn with your grain of salt. Have you heard anything I've said? Anything positive I've said you seem to brush away. Is your hatred so strong that you refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that someone could study Shaolin-Do and be happy?
    --------------------


    For starters, I *have* listened to practically everthing that you have written in this thread. That is why I reply to each and every word that you have written (and separated them into coherent paragraphs, at that). It would be very hard for me to rebut your arguments unless I were able to read and understand what you wrote. Secondly, you insinuate that somehow this debate should have been completely impartial. I hate to break it to you, but that isn't the way the world works. It is a given that you are on the side of Shaolin-Do, and that I am on the side against Shaolin-Do. What I say is biased, and what you say is biased. That should be recognized, as it is true. However, it should not detract from the fact that I and others have presented arguments against Shaolin-Do that make perfect sense, and that you have either completely ignored or "rationalized" in some way.
    I'm getting more and more annoyed when you start bringing feelings and emotions into this whole mess. You say things like "I am in awe of Shaolin-Do" and "Well, Shaolin-Do makes me happy!" when they bring no merit to your defense. So what if it makes you happy? That has no bearing on whether or not Shaolin-Do is fake. And yes, Shaolin-Do is FAKE. It is FRAUDULENT. IT DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A MARTIAL ART. IT IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE. I'll address that new thread on the main forum when I have the chance. For now, let's stick to this one...

    --------------------
    "Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently."
    Ok. Again, if a personal attack makes you feel better...it won't keep me up nights.
    "Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this."
    Wow! We agree on something.
    -Radhnoti
    ===============================


    Nice try, but that won't fly with me. I said that I expected you to respond intelligently. That can be taken to mean that your responses were not intelligent, but it is a stretch of the imagination to somehow imply that I somehow think that you are stupid or that you are unintelligent. The fact that I expected *better* of you should show you how I feel about "how smart you are." Never, ever insinuate that I would resort to personal attacks to win an argument. That is the tactic of George W. Bush, not me.
    And, BTW, just because I'm sick and tired of arguing about Shaolin-Do doesn't mean that I will stop. =)

  6. #81
    dragon797 Guest

    Hiang The Info

    After returning from a 5 year stay in Indonesia to be with his family, Hiang The (The "The" family name can also be translated from the Chinese character as Chen), he began to actively teach full-time again in Lexington, KY last year in conjunction with the YMCAs of Lexington. To clearly separate himself from brother Sin's group and establish his own identity, Hiang decided to return to the ORIGINAL name his teachers used for their style in Indonesia: Chung Yen Shaolin, or Central Area Shaolin. The name Chung Yen Shaolin is inscribed on the specialty medallions and rank certificates Hiang earned from his teachers. The Shaolin-Do name was started by Sin when he came to the US in 1964 and started teaching.

    Hiang received his sixth degree rank before he came to the US in 1968 to attend college at the University of Kentucky. Grandmaster Ie passed away in August 1968 (note that Sin claims Ie died in 1976! There is a picture of Ie’s gravestone with the correct date) and then Hiang returned to Indonesia in 1974 to receive his seventh degree from Liu Su Peng, one of Ie’s original partners and then head of the school after Ie’s death. Hiang returned again in early 1978, but Liu Su Peng died shortly before that and the original group was beginning to split up. Hiang was offered control but turned it down to return to the US.

    Hiang is the highest-ranking student of the original Chung Yen Shaolin group. Sin’s certificate from January 15, 1964 shows that the last rank he tested for was 5th degree and he never returned to Indonesia for rank advancement. When Hiang made the decision to re-create the original group in his own name here, he rightfully claimed to be its head. He has approximately 120 long forms, of which he has taught around 85-90. One proof of this is that Hiang requires students to make a video tape of their material as part of their test for higher ranks. He currently has one student who just tested for seventh degree and another sixth degree that have performed all these forms on video. Hiang continues to teach new material to his advanced group and plans to teach the rest his material within the next 5 years.

    By the way, the web site you may be referring to is from one of Hiang’s student’s students and is mostly, but not completely accurate. One of Hiang’s senior students is currently working on an official website for the group in conjunction with the Lexington YMCAs.

  7. #82
    Radhnoti Guest
    Thanks for the info dragon797. Inquisitor, I PROMISE I'll plow through your post when I get some more time this week. I know, I know, you can't wait can you? :rolleyes:
    Anyone that hasn't Destrous9's thread on "fake" martial arts, I'd suggest doing so. He seems to be a far wiser man than I. 'Course how hard is that? :)

    -Radhnoti

  8. #83
    Radhnoti Guest
    Wow, what a difference a day makes. For the first time I didn't have time to immediately respond...and now I see that we've degenerated from me giving my point of view and you giving yours, to silly wordplay.
    I hope this is the last quote I'll take from you to make a point Inquisitor.
    "And yes, Shaolin-Do is FAKE. It is FRAUDULENT. IT DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A MARTIAL ART. IT IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE. " If it's ok with you, I'll just boil that down as your viewpoint, ok? A number of folks agree with you.
    I disagree. So do a number of others that have posted in this thread. My previous posts state my position, as your posts show yours...besides, this thread is already longer than any other I've seen here. ;)
    My stupid macho side is BEGGING me to pick out what you've said at tear at it. So, the WISE thing for me to do MUST be to just let it go. No?
    This thread has been my introduction to this forum, but other threads have already taught me a lot. Thanks for a spirited debate. :D
    No doubt we'll square off elsewhere on this issue...but, I'll try to stay away from quoting you and speak a bit more generally. See you on the boards.

    -Radhnoti

  9. #84
    Johnny Hot Shot Guest

    $10,000,000

    Is what Mattera Paid to get his 10th DAN given to him from the Shaolin Monks. Crazy

    "Life's a great adventure, mate."
    Jacko Jackson

  10. #85
    MonkeySlap Too Guest

    A simple test for Shaolin Do

    http://www.ohioshaolin-do.com/internal.html

    Lists Liu Ha Pa Fa as a 'style' taught at Shaolin Do. As I happen to be acquainted with many of the students of Wai Lun Choi, the legitimate head of this style, I extend an offer to any 'Shaolin-Do' master or student.

    I can arrange a meeting with master Choi or one of his students to evaluate this Liu Ha Pa Fa Shaolin-Do teaches.

    I think we will find that it is yet another demonstration of fraud on the part of this organization.

    Feel free to eMail me, and I will be happy to try to set this up.

    Good luck on trying to learn this style from video!!

    I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

  11. #86
    rocky Guest

    Shaolin-Do

    MonkeySlapToo, Why are you so hell bent to discredit shaolin-do masters or practioners. I'm not a student of shaolin-do But, I know some people in that art they work hard at it. Just because it don't match what you do. It still a martial art of some type. Just because it is not a monkey steals the peach routine. Or the master didn't make the 100 top masters of kung fu in china yours may have or have not. We all can't be like you or your famous masters. Get a grip pal its only shaolin do. Cheers.

  12. #87
    Sharky Guest
    yea but it *IS* a bit gay tho, admit it...

    Edd

    My anus is superior™

  13. #88
    MonkeySlap Too Guest

    I'm just annoyed..

    I don't care if someone is happy with it. I don't care if someone does something different than me. (If you knew me, you'd know that is a ridiculous thought.) I do care if someone is misrepresenting themselves to make a buck. I have become convinced that they are lying to the public. It has nothing to do with me, but it has a lot to do with people I respect. Please see the other posts by myself and people like Brad.

    This is a bigger issue. I am sure there are plenty of fine people in Shaolin Do, but that should not prevent someone from telling the emperor he ain't got no clothes.

    I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

  14. #89
    IronFist Guest

    **** the fakes (can I say that word here?)

    "I do care if someone is misrepresenting themselves to make a buck. "

    Hell yeah, MonkeySlap Too.

    It's like Ashida Kim. While I don't give two craps if what he teaches is effective or not, it ****es me off to no end that he calls the crap he teaches "ninjutsu" (oh sorry, my bad, he calls it "ninjitsu" with an "i").

    It's false representation, and it's ******* bull****

    Iron

  15. #90
    The Willow Sword Guest

    monkey slap

    this is the first time that i have seen this being offered. is li hou ba fa part of the meteor fist system? in GM SIN's book it talks about it only fleetingly,,,I have never seen it myself....whereas i have the classical pakua form and hsing-i and taichi,,,,i have yet to learn the
    official combination forms. i actually have been doing stuff on my own but would like to see and possibly go to a seminar to learn this material.
    monkey,,you and i have gotten on the wrong foot. i would like to be able to discuss things with you in an intelligent manner and share ideas and thoughts. even though i am a SD disciple. i am not as inept as you might think.
    Many respects, willow sword

    Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

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