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Thread: Stylistic similarities

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    The beast under your bed.

    Stylistic similarities

    We sure do spend a lot of time arguing about what style is better, and why, and how, etc....

    Why not try taking a look at what we all have in common across styles? What techniques do we share? What underlying theories do we share? What philosophies do we share? What numbers and shapes are your styles based on, and how do they relate to the numbers and shapes of other styles?

    Ill give my responses and thoughts in a few minutes...
    "i would show them 8 hours of animal porn and beheadings in a single sitting then make them write a paper about italy." -GDA
    "he said there were tons of mantids fornicating everywhere. While he was there, he was sending me photos of mantis porn regularly." - Gene Ching

  2. #2
    We already did that, and I think it was one of the most succeffuls threads in a LONG time - not to toot my own horn or anything *no applause, please *

    it was the ultimate grappling thread, and also the ultimate grappling reloaded thread.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  3. #3
    for starters though, the triangle shape is probably shared across a gaggle of styles.

    As for principles, many have some sort of yielding.

    When I met up with WD for the first time, we compared his chen taiji prinicples with my thai stuff. we found several things in common, such as yielding and borrowing.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    minneapolis, mn
    We all use the human body and we all generally, use the same human body parts.
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Austin TX
    "What techniques do we share?"

    Smack opponent in head


    All my fight strategy is based on deliberately injuring my opponents. -
    Crippled Avenger

    "It is the same in all wars; the soldiers do the fighting, the journalists do the shouting, and no true patriot ever get near a front-line trench, except on the briefest of propoganda visits...Perhaps when the next great war comes we may see that sight unprecendented in all history, a jingo with a bullet-hole in him."

    First you get good, then you get fast, then you get good and fast.

  6. #6
    Waddaya mean yielding and borrowing are Tai Chi and Muay Thai principles. Those are things only found in karate! Maybe Aikido too but that's it.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  7. #7
    what? surely the japanese would never have thought about such things!
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  8. #8
    the following is from a page I ran across in msn groups. does your style apply any/all of these principles?

    Peng Jing (Pushing Power)
    Peng is the very basic "power". It is the ability to transmit power, strength, energy, etc, thru an "extremity" (one of the 7 stars : head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, feet).

    Ding Jing (Listening Power)
    Peng is considered also as the audible energy because it is through peng that one can listen to the opponent's body. As the studentdevelops the core peng strength, work is begun on building a good connection and communication between student and opponent. Through the aid of practice to increase sensitivity, the student can precisely detect the opponent's power, center of gravity, direction, pressure, etc., as if actually hearing the vibrations. Understanding Power (Dong Jing) motivation, one can continue developing and advancing listening ability to the stage of under standing power. In other words, the mind becomes able to analyze and measure the pressure, direction character, speed, force, etc., of the opponent's movements in order to be able to cope with them properly. In most chinese martial arts this Power is trained thru Tuishou (pushing-hand) drills (f.e. called Chi sao inwingchun).

    Zang Lian Jing (Sticking Power)
    Through Rolling Hands Practice, Pushing Practice and practice in reversing the transfer of power process, the student develops the sensitivity and controlling ability known as sticking power. In other words, the student should be able to stick with an opponent in order to control him, attack, or defeat his attack. Usually with the initial contact between two people in a free-style fighting situation, the student can use peng to sense the opponent's hand (with advanced students the sensitivity will encompass the entire body) and there is an almost magnetic feeling. That is, the opponent feels as if he were stuck to the student almost like chewing gum can stick to the body. The special application of sticking power is the slowing of an opponent's speed and also the redirection of any kind of energy emitted by the opponent (a straight push get deflected without any apparent reason. This Power is also involved in the "unpushable man" trick).

    Zuo Jing (Following Power)
    By combining all of the previously described types of power, one can advance one's ability further and develop following power. This type of power allows the student to follow the direction of the opponent in all situations and respond accordingly.

    Hua Jing (Neutralizing Power)
    With neutralizing power the student is able to guide their following power in a yielding manner, in order to counterbalance or make ineffective the attacking and defending ability of an opponent.

    Ce Jing (Borrowing Power)
    Through borrowing power, the student is able to utilize an opponent's power by adapting it to purposes that are beneficial to the student's own designs. When an opponent attacks with, say, ten pounds of force, the student not only neutralizes (yields) but also borrows that force into his foot and reflects it back to the opponent, often at such an angle that the opponent is tossed away by largely his own power. In Luohan Quan this power is used at "An Jing" level for every move that appear as a block at "Ming Jing" level.

    Ying Jing (Drawing-up Power)
    Should an opponent refuse to transfer power, the student is in the situation of having no power to borrow from. In such a situation it is up to the student to cause the attacker to yield his power so that it can be utilized for reflection back to the opponent. This process is known as drawing-up power from an opponent. A lot of this may just be psychology and reflex.

    Di Jing (Uprooting Power)
    The ability to cause an opponent to bounce backward and upward, thereby making him lose his root to the ground, is known as uprooting power. When used in a more moderate fashion, i.e., by keeping peng in an upward direction to the opponent's center, this power will cause him to float. In Luohan Quan this power is used to prepare counterattacks and throws, usually combining the power of the arms with the power of the stance / hips.

    Chen Jing (Sinking Power)
    By reversing the practice of uprooting power the student is able to develop the ability to sink using it against an attempt to uproot him. Success in sinking power development can cause one's opponent to feel that it is impossible to uproot the student. The relaxed, connected body is the source of this.

    Na Jing (Controlling Power)
    Controlling power is applied during Rolling Hands practice or Free Hand practice. The student will try different methods to take over control of the situation and eventually lock the opponent into a position which will defeat him. The constant and skillful use of peng and connection are what power this skill. In Luohan Quan we all call this power the "trapping power" as it allows to lead the opponent in a way / posture that is uncomfortable and unstable.

    Kai Jing (Open-up Power)
    This is the application of internal power in such a manner as to cause an opponent who has maintained a defensive position for an extended period of time to open up his defenses and thus be defeated. Psychology and reflex in relation to the opponent are vital for this.

    He Jing (Close-up Power)
    In this case the student directs his internal power inward in such a manner as to cause an opponent to react by closing-up toward his center as a means of defense. In the process of closing-up, it is possible to trap the opponent because he is so drawn in toward his balance point that there is no way that he can move outward; thus the student is able to control the situation and defeat him. This is the perfect power to use against a bully opponent, attracting him to a "unprotected" area and then let him crash against a hard part of your body (knee, elbow, shoulder, ...)

    Po Jing (Deflecting Power)
    This is a specialized development of internal power. In applying deflecting power the practitioner is able to bounce an attacker to the side, or divert his force, to bring the student out of danger. Here the skill of controlling not only your own peng but the opponent's force vector (whether he uses peng or not) is critical.

    Zhou Jing (Rubbing Power)
    This transfer of power is achieved through a rubbing motion of the hands or other parts of the body. The motion used is similar to that of rubbing clay between the palms to form a long rope or coil. Often, qinna are applied with this for attacking opponent's muscles.

    Fa Jing (Exploding Power)
    This transfer of power is achieved through a burst of energy, releasing power suddendly and "overloading" the opponent. At "ming jing" level, this power is used for every "attacking" moves of Luohan Quan.

    Ce Jing (Twisting Power)
    When applying internal power in this manner, the student twists an opponent in an action similar to that of wringing out a wash cloth. This type of power is used to lock an opponent into a position where he can be easily defeated or just keep it secured. The internal version of this well known move different in that it relies on physical law rather than muscle power.

    Zhuan Jing (Spiral Power)
    Because of this screwing motion, this type of power transfer is sometimes referred to as screwing power. It is the base of Chan si Jing (silk reiling power)Mainly use in Baguazhang this power is used in every turning move of Luohan Quan, transforming a possibly weak posture into an even more powerful motion. Of course a good grounding and lower body strength is required.

    Ci Jing (Cutting Power) or Heng Jing (Crossing Power)
    This type of power transfer, is a clean, sharp cutting type of motion which is applied to an opponent from the side in order to disable or interrupt an attack. Used with Zhuan Jing this can produce extremely powerful moves which can inflict heavy damages.

    Duan Jing (Interrupting Power)
    Interrupting power usually refers to the skill of "leaving the jing in the opponent.... mainly so no return which borrows" your power can be used. This skill is very hard to train and requires a very trained mind.

    Cun Jing (Inch Power)
    Sometimes called short-power.... the ability to release great power with very little motion. The most famous martial artist using this power is of course Bruce Lee (the famous one inch punch), to achieve the maximum power, Zhuan Jing, Fa Jing and Ying Jing are required.

    Zuo Te Jing (Folding Power)
    Folding power usually implies the skill of folding the body and hitting with the closest body part, using fa jing. For instance, if an opponent holds your wrist, hit him with Elbow using fa jing or cun jing; if he holds your elbow, hit him with shoulder (Kao) or hip, etc.

    Ling Gong Jing (Distance Power)
    This is the power of supposedly hitting without touching from a distance.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  9. #9

    Thumbs up

    Excellent posts.

  10. #10
    I am mainly a Northern styles student.

    Yes, out of the few schools I studied, they all have them.

    Mantis, Shaolin, Bai Ji, Tong Bei, Tai Tzu, Tai Ji, Ba Gua, Xing Yi and of course the ever so popular Wing Chun.

    However, they have different styles to apply the same principles.

    I was on another forum.

    They were discussing there were over 400 routines of 7 star Mantis.

    What are true Mantis and what are additions or hybrids?

    My answer was I only studied limited number of 7 stars routines, Liu He and some plum flower.

    I think all these routines are personal expressions of understanding of the principles.

    If they have mantis principles, they are 7 stars mantis.

    A student only has to pick a few routines and study them well in and out.

    Even a few routines, you may vary them, too.

    Thus the name is martial ARTS.

    An expression from you.


    Last edited by SPJ; 09-30-2004 at 06:42 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Behind you!
    Nice list.

    Although we don't use the same terminology in wing chun some of these energies are very obviously apparent.

    In my wing chun, I'm not sure that we have Ying Jing. I'm not sure that we have Kai Jing either, but that's mainly because I'm not sure of that description. We don't have Zhou Jing that I recognize (again, not really clear on the description but is it kind of like a "Chinese Burn"?! - anyway, it doesn't sound like anything we use!!!).

    We don't have Zhuan Jing, I don't think. And we don't have Ling Gong Jing (does anyone? C'mon, be honest!!!).

    Perhaps the biggest surprise for people who don't practise wing chun is that we do have quite good Ce Jing principles, based on lap sau, chum (Chen Jing above) or cutting the angles to get round the back/side, and keeping pressure into the central axis and centre of balance for a twisting takedown, or hit sequence.

    It is rather like a more directly centre-to-centre irimi-nage in aiki (-do and -jutsu).

    Another surprise is maybe Zuo Te Jing, which in my wing chun is prevalent from biu jee to second knuckle strike to fist to wrist to elbow to shoulder to hip (then knee)/head butt strike sequence we practised on the wall bag softly and heavy bags hard... oh and on each other!

    Actually, thinking about it again, perhaps we have a Zhuang Jing... first manifested in when somebody grabs your bong (which we always think of as a transitionary move anyway, but let's say someone catches it, or forces your arm up so that you want to stop it with bong) and you drop the elbow (chum jarn) using Chen Jing. In effect, yoou have used their upward wrenching movement to power up your twisting reply.

    As a larger motion, if someone laps or goes for a flying armbar type move or an elbow control like nikkyo in aikido there is a similar reply in wing chun to silk reeling... stepping off and spiralling your body back up through to a wu, jong or man sau, or further to reply with another lap.

    When/if I have time, I'd like to come back to this thread and put the same energies in through my internals, aiki and wrestling perspectives.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Behind you!
    The other thing I realised we work on a lot in my internals/aikijutsu class, and have done through many of my arts (including I think a couple of surprises like boxing), is the opening and closing of the qua, or the use of the muscle in the crease of the thigh. I tried to start a thread on this a wee while ago, but didn't even have time to respond myself!

    In boxing for example, we don't particularly work on it, but my visualisation of it and practical use of it in my internals class has transferred into ow I think of my boxing structure. Ie the folding turn and slight sinking to the left to cock a jab or left hook, and the subsequent 'closing' of the structure to turn the leg to deliver.

    Sure, you can think of it as just turning your leg on the balls of your foot, and that way seems to be improve my speed, but my power, and for that matter, my awareness of the mechanics involved in not telegraphing, seem to work better when I concentrate on the mysterious qua!!!

    Of course, there's the satisfying thwack of a punch being a punch at the end!!!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

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