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Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    wasn't going for the disprove. Just a perspective from a guy that I also happen to share for the most part regarding the subject.
    I think for what it was at the time. It's all good. The problems do come from the hero worship as far as true optics go.
    I agree, hero worship is just ridiculous.
    We can all appreciate Bruce's views and understanding of MA ( even if we may not agree with him) but to make him MORE than simply a good MA for his time is just stupid.
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  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Reality #1: the cult of Bruce Lee makes it impossible to discuss the issue without it turning into a SH I T storm

    Reality #2: Bruce's early death means that we have a "James Dean" phenomenon AND of course, his close friends remember him fondly and few are willing to "speak ill" of the dead

    Reality #3: a lot of people have a vested interest in the Bruce Lee image. Inosanto IS a great martial artists, but never forget that before Bruce became a movie star, he was a PE and driver's ED teacher. HIs relationship to Bruce meant people who wanted to travel from across the world to study with him, pay him to do seminars, to do books, etc..... Chuck Norris owes his entire film career to Bruce...

    Reality #4: the harshest of all, we forget just how limited and downright PATHETIC martial arts were on this side of the planet when Bruce was here. Joe Lewis spent ONE YEAR in Okinawa and was given a black belt. No one had seen spinning kicks until Chuck Norris came back from his stint in Korea. Peter urban was quoted as saying "everyone was so ignorant, I could, and did, teach whatever I wanted, whatever I could make up, and no one questioned me". We were still talking about "Judo chops" and though an Asian trained in martial arts was magical
    I think there's a related point to 1 and 2, in tma, there is no shortage of people who posture themselves by means of saying someone else isn't the real deal. Some people who don't care for BL don't care for him for real world reasons. Some people talk about him as a means of making themselves more real, just like when certain people try to discredit you by saying you have other (qualified) people teaching in your school, therefore you don't know anything. Of course, this means they know everything.

    Or the people who, upon hearing a certain sifu died of cancer, say it is because of the way they did their form. Not, you know, being a chain smoker.

    Additionally, point 4. I think we have all seen a pretty fair cross section of schools in our lives. I seriously question the idea that even half of the teachers I've seen could have beaten BL, not because I worship BL, but because, frankly, MOST karate, tkd, and kung fu is three steps back in terms of contact experience compared to the norm back then, and BL used more of it than most tma schools of his day in his training and teaching.

    I think both sides are dominated by people who have something they get out of their opinion of BL.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Newbie View Post

    Additionally, point 4. I think we have all seen a pretty fair cross section of schools in our lives. I seriously question the idea that even half of the teachers I've seen could have beaten BL, not because I worship BL, but because, frankly, MOST karate, tkd, and kung fu is three steps back in terms of contact experience compared to the norm back then, and BL used more of it than most tma schools of his day in his training and teaching.
    Bruce Lee was about 5' 6" and around 135-140 lbs...

    This is Bruce Lee working a a bag



    hands down, just flailing
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  4. #424
    This is Bruce Lee sparring



    NOt really full contact as we understand the term
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Bruce Lee was about 5' 6" and around 135-140 lbs...

    This is Bruce Lee working a a bag



    hands down, just flailing
    I'll note you did not compare that to footage of the average kung fu, karate, or tkd teacher hitting the bag.

    If the average kung fu instructor in the U.S. today were fighting BL, would you bet on them winning? Or just watch and make fun of the zaniness on youtube?
    Last edited by Faux Newbie; 06-18-2014 at 08:54 AM.

  6. #426
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    Let's dissect that bag work.
    here's my critique, and frankly....it's not great.

    1. His feet lose connection with the ground when he strikes.
    2. His hands are down at his sides instead of up where they belong.
    3. He's not using a lead to drive the power.
    4. He's leaning in
    5. He's not as relaxed as he needs to be.

    In all fairness, as it goes, it's not likely that before him meeting boxers and kickboxers that he actually was trained to use a heavy bag which is usually a boxing thing.

    So, in that context, Faux is correct, he's going at it exactly as expected.

    Flame on mafas.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #427
    While Bruce Lee was in Hong Kong, they had a south east Asian cup full contact event. Lee was in attendance but sitting way in the back of the room with sun glasses on. He certainly could have fought....

    In Thailand, where he filmed, there were certainly Thai boxers who knew how to properly hit a bag...
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  8. #428
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4a934j8fTc

    If your fast and punching you don't need your hands up in guard. Mike Swick use to keep his hands down. I belive bruce was faster.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YdmtveRCb8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZdLJAYzV9M Tommy Hearns was another.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-VaTYRjqs Diaz Brothers.

    Also Bruce would most likely use eye pokes and not clinched fist in the street IMO.

    Also alive foot work helps you get your punches off quicker than rooted strikes if you look at ali when he first boxed he was alive feet then as he got more rooted he got slower granted there was other factors.

    Some guys fighting styles are with there hands down not one I choose but doesn't make them any better or worse than guys that keep them up.

    He says he beat Bruce lee also
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nik8VQAcuGE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBy6Op1_c8
    Last edited by dcrjradmonish; 06-18-2014 at 08:12 PM.



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  9. #429
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    This is just a personal observation, but...

    I always thought it was interesting, if you look at at the photos in the Bruce Lee's Fighting Method book series, BL posed the techniques (hand techniques and kicks) with his hands up, or at least in ready position. But in the photos of him side kicking the bag (for example), his arm(s) flew backwards. Same in the videos where he's side kicking the heavy bag or air shields.

    But that's really not unique among many MA people. Unless you are really mindful of keeping your hands in ready position while making full contact on the bag, shields/pads, and sparring, it's easy to fall into bad habits while focusing strictly on power.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 06-18-2014 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #430
    I can totally see the problem with the footage that was posted.

    And yet, it's still ahead of what a lot of people did and still do. And certain aspects after that time, based on his writings, progressed further. for him

    I'm not a BL nut. Can't really watch much in the way of kung fu movies. But I'm just saying a good portion of those who slag BL (not all certainly) are not exactly his equals. There are exceptions of course, but most who talk are not exactly even accustomed to the level of contact you see in that video, or the degree of heavy bag usage in the other video. And so I really don't get the hate, aside from like two people who were wronged by the guy.

    If we are to use the fact that he didn't learn all of wing chun as an attack, then we have to examine what the people who did learn it all have done since. If we are to take the word of a "nunchaku expert" on his nunchaku skills, we have to acknowledge there is such a thing.

    I'm not willing to go out on a limb like that. Bruce Lee made kung fu famous in the west and provided a progressive context for it. He was also an egomaniac. Life goes on. His career, acting or otherwise, was dependent on his kung fu. He was a kung fu guy who, by any contemporary's account, trained a ton. He was undoubtedly limited, but there are a ton more limited guys being called freekin grandmasters now. Legitimate lineages who have produced no equal in the last century. Life goes on.

  11. #431
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    Bruce Lee is dead.

    His Kung Fu was not that good. Kung Fu is about health and longevity as well as fighting. You die early, your Fu sucked.

    Jacky Chan is still alive and kicking.

    Sammo Hung is still alive and kicking.

    Freaking Chuck Norris is still alive and kicking.
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
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  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    His Kung Fu was not that good. Kung Fu is about health and longevity as well as fighting. You die early, your Fu sucked.
    His over training was possibly an issue. More likely is either congenital defect or drug use or both. I know few kung fu men your age who didn't do something in their 20s-30s that could have killed them right then and there, without it being because of their kung fu being deficient. Talented people sometimes die. We can argue whether BL was talented in this sense, but the idea that kung fu makes one immune to death is at odds with the history of kung fu. The legendary masters all lived to 100. The historical ones didn't nearly as often, and given that research suggests that genes have a lot more to do with longevity than most factors, I don't subscribe to this theory. Especially since many Chinese carry advantageous genes in this sense.

    My grandmother chain smoked her whole life, and lived to be fairly old. I do not think her smoking technique was superior to that of others. The men in her side tended to die young. Under the same diet, same, sometimes better, lifestyles than her.

    If one is going to suggest his martial arts did him in, then you have to show where this is the case. I mean, how does one demonstrate that the way a person did a side kick or bil jee causes brain aneurisms?

    Life kills everyone. Mystical Taoists run away from this fact, Zhuangzi made fun of this tendency. Sometimes what we do helps preserve and sometimes not. Bruce Lee overtrained, and certainly had access to the hollywood party lifestyle of his day, which definitely killed plenty of people. Good kung fu doesn't magically make one immune to other damage from lifestyle, but, if that lifestyle becomes healthier, it may still help, and it may increase the odds, by way of being active, of surviving the more foolish years of one's life. But it doesn't make one immune to consequences.

    As for kung fu being about health, I think Jackie Chan is not a strong example of healthy practices. Yes, he's alive. He's also got more injuries than anyone else alive.
    Last edited by Faux Newbie; 06-19-2014 at 07:48 AM.

  13. #433
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    Back around the early '90s in Taiwan, I read a HK magazine article and interview of Jackie Chan that mentioned when he wakes up, it can take him a half hour to stand up straight and walk/move normally due to the accumulation of injuries over the years. He would do a series of very awkward exercises while still on the bed to warm his body sufficiently to 'hobble' to the sink to brush his teeth. Once warmed, he could function normally during the day. He looks good today at 60, but I wonder how he wakes up these days.

    Sammo Hung not too long ago had a heart attack due to his weight.

    I will say that Chuck looks awesome at 74, even if he didn't dye his hair and beard to a ridiculous degree.

    Some people just die young, and some people just live a long time. Sometimes people die of genetic defects or other causes. My main northern-style teacher in Taiwan died young sometime ago, at the age of 37 or so, and his kung fu was very good. He died in a motorcycle accident, but he's dead nonetheless.

  14. #434
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    My opinion may be a bit tainted if only because I'm a former student of the late Jesse Glover(Bruces' first student).

    There seems to be this erroneous notion that in looking at or offering an opinion on Bruce, that one must either:

    1.) Think he's the greatest ever with "the golden glow" from the movie "The last dragon", and posthumously stamping his name in gung fu immortality. Within this, comes other beliefs of prowess such as levitating, disappearing into the etherium and vanquishing any human on earth (said human can even be carrying any weapon known to man). Included in this is the ability to vaporize any opponent just by screaming "Hai-yaaaa!!!"

    OR---

    2.) The opposite end of the spectrum and villify him,etc.

    Well? I belong to NEITHER CAMP!! Do I think he was "the greatest ever"? In terms of technical ability..no. I do think he did for chinese martial arts in terms of putting it on the map and cementing it into the consciousness of the West(America and later other countries). Similar to what Arnold Schwarzenegger did for the sport of bodybuilding.

    That's not such a bad thing now is it?

    All of this endless speculating! Would he have done the UFC? Would he started his own line of Bruce Lee protein and creatine supplements available at GNC? Would he have stopped doing martial arts and retrated to Kun Lun mountains and become a hermit? Yadda..Yadda..Yadda!

    It's about as productive as speculating if the world population and the world as we know if for that matter might have been different if Hitler had been accepted to art school as he originally planned.

    I'm sure that Master Wong Jack Man was a skilled instructor and fighter. Even Ali lost some fights. Everyone has a day when they are on top of their game and a day when they are less so.

    The comment which was offered about Master Wong being painted as a racist is..well..peculiar to me. Both he and Bruce were chinese. I'm caucasin..it's like another white guy saying I'm a racist towards whites..LOL

  15. #435
    I hate to do this (no, actually, I don't really) but if you are going to talk about his death (or health) then you really need to be aware of this book which the Bruce Lee estate supressed for years... actually, written by Linda Lee's ex husband

    http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/79/2...LEDMATTERS.pdf
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

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