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Thread: Shaolin Temple

  1. #31
    mantis108 Guest

    WuShu vs Kung Fu

    To put it nicely, IMHO, I think KickMantis's argument is pretty much a standard "scholar" perspective in keeping with "Party Line". I appologize to you, KickMantis, in advance. I really could not find any other way to put.

    In the year 4001, you will find "records" and "Documented material" from Government archives that Kung Fu never existed. It's a mythical cult!

    It is true that WuShu (martial SKILL) existed in China way before Bordhidharma's time but it is him who elevated it to a higher plateau - one that is spiritual not just technical. Creative conditioning of the body, mind and spirit through hard work and chaos give you the merits. That's Kung Fu the core concept. You become a better person not a better killing machine. Shaolin and Bordhidharma are important in Kung Fu because they have inspired many to systematically transmitt their arts. WuShu today has already developed into a martial sport. It's sole purpose is to please the higher power be it the Government or paying customer, and to satisfy the Alpha Male Complex.

    If WuShu perspective is in vogue then by all means follow it. I know my path is Kung Fu and I would take a stance (pun intended) against the WuShu hype even if it means I am going against popular believe.



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  2. #32
    KickingMantis Guest



    You said "It is him (Ta Mo) who elevated it (Kung Fu) to a higher plateau, one that is spiritual not just technical."

    There is no proof of this. The only proof is from a legend that says Ta Mo brought Zen Buddhism from India to Shaoilin and that he meditated there for approximately 8-9 years or so and introduced breathing exercises to the monks for their physical health. Nothing about a fighting, martial or war like art. This may well have been adopted in the regime of the kung fu that was practiced at the temple from those that sought refuge there.

    There is nothing spiritual about Kung Fu per se. Buddhism and Kung Fu are two very different things
    Being spiritual doesnt make your kung fu anymore or less practical than the price of tea in China.
    What it may do, if you are serious about your spiritualism or religion is make you a more person of good values and morals. This makes the Kung Fu person a good Kung Fu person. And in ancient times they would use their art for the preservation of life, liberty and the protection of their family,friends and communities instead of robbery and stealing.

    Thats what has all these people off the wall these days now.Thinking there is something mystical and mysterious about kung fu. There isn't. Kung Fu is hard work and when one masters working hard at their kung fu then they become proficient in it. There are no real secrets. no real magic, just magical tricks that attract the naive, unlearned and ignorant.

    "The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end."
    "If You can't be honest nothing can happen."

  3. #33
    mantis108 Guest

    In God We Trust.

    Can't resist an easy way out... :)

    In God We Trust - this is printed on the US dollar bills. Do we have to prove that God exists before we acknowlegde the value of this piece of green paper? Not everyone has to be Christian to use it as long as he or she has faith (not the religious faith) in the system. This faith is an edvience of spirtuality, not to confuse with religion believes, that everyone has. A Christian would perhaps appreciate the currency more so than a non Christian because of the spiritual implication, yet a non Christian also enjoys the value just the same. There are evidences of Bodhidharma's existence such as the cave which he meditated in, 18 Lohan routine, etc... What is the benefit of discarding their existance? I drawn such a parallel in response to the last part of your post.

    There are a few things to consider before discarding Bodhidharma's influence in Kung Fu.

    1) Although Bodhidharma is consider the first patriarch of Ch'an (later became Zen Buddhism in Japan) which has it's root in Mahayana Buddhism. His school was mostly likely to be the Dhyana School which uses meditation as a tool for enlightment. Meditation is beneficial to martial arts.

    2) It is highly likely that early forms of Buddhism didn't shed all of its Hindu roots. So Dhyana might have elements of Yoga, which is another Hindu tradition. Yoga can be a great "cross training".

    3) 18 Lohan routine is very reminiscent of Yoga routine.

    4) In Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate, a Kung Fu influenced martial art, there is a strengthing exercise that is a variation of the Sun Salution (Yoga routine).

    There are many signs as such that we can't ignore and discard spirituality (for lack of a better word) enhance the experience of Kung Fu practice. The great happiness (Samadhi) - the "Ah, I got it." - is not an mystical alien feeling to many practitioners. I agreed that is no secrets in Kung Fu just hard work. Bodhidharma is a paradox in which a preacher of peace practiced the art of war. It is this paradox that boarden the horizon for martial arts or military arts practitioner. Otherwise, the demographic would just be composed of soliders alone.


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  4. #34
    reader Guest

    <A HREF="" TARGET="_blank"></A>

    Question--If spam is 15 percent meat, what is the other 85 percent made of?

  5. #35
    KickingMantis Guest

    As Stated Before.......................

    In my opinion and observations thus far, the only purpose that spirituality has played in the martial arts is by giving its' practioners a sense of purpose or specfically a "Holy" purpose.

    Zen Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and the like... were all a great influence in the martial artist because of the times. These were the major religions in China at the time. If martial arts was developed or prevalent in the US, Kung Fu might be a little different, with a more western or White Protestant type logic to it. If it was developed among natives, it would have had more of a naturalistic or anismistic type of philosophy.

    Meditation is done in many religions in different ways to achieve the same end, As the goal of all religions, spiritualities, philosophies and thoughts. It does not improve the Kung Fu, it improves the individual that practices it. There have been devout excellent martial artists with unending legends of their skills and devout devotion to mankind, just as their are legends of excellent martial artists that have killed, robbed, raped and terrorized people.

    "The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end."
    "If You can't be honest nothing can happen."

  6. #36
    RAYNYSC Guest

    Shaolin Temple Article

    Anyone read the article in this month's issue of Inside Kung Fu on the Shaolin Temple?
    It's titled China's Temple of Doom.
    It's written by Brian Gray all I'm saying is if what he wrote is true the Shaolin Temple is in disarray. Just like anything else when it come's down to money chance's are that greed will get the better part of you.



  7. #37
    Shaolin Master Guest


    Though it seems to be messy, my friend (Xu Jian Lou) a chairmen of the association there confirms that the abbott is attempting to remove the marketing calamity and make it more peaceful as in the past.

    However, given Yong Xin's background he may not be the most trustworthy. Being more into business than anything.

    He will be travelling to the US this year with the Abbott of the White Horse Temple and my friend may be more will come of it then.

    I guess I will find out more during the Shaolin Wushu Festival in September this year. Til then the commentary is neutral on the matter

    Shi Chan Long

  8. #38
    CJ Max Guest

    Shaolin Temple News

    The Abbot and the Shaolin Temple is a very
    interesting subject.
    The Abbot is the CEO of the Shaolin Temple Inc.
    He could do what ever he wants to do.
    He does not have to do what you want him to do
    or what I want him to do.
    He does his thing not our thing.
    He definitely has at his disposal 2 million
    tourists a year.
    That is the question?
    Should the Shaolin Temple be religious or
    should the Shaolin Temple be Kung Fu.
    What is what and which is which is very interesting.
    We are observing history in action.
    We cannot be participants.
    We can only watch as the Shaolin Temple is being transformed into something that the Abbot want's.
    The Shaolin Temple is his not mine not yours.

    CJ Max

  9. #39
    kungfulover Guest

    Shaolin Temple in China?

    i am working in Korea now. And i will have a long vacation. I am planning to travel to China. Do you guys know any real shaolin temple in China?

  10. #40
    The Willow Sword Guest

    KUNGfu Lover

    well uh the real one is at Henan and is the real temple. but if you are referring to the original curriculum and buddhist order with out the modern wushu and the amusement park theatrics, well i cant help ya there,,,,,try hiking into the distant mountains and seeing if you can find the secret temple that has remained untouched for a thousand years ;) i suggest that you go to the temple in Henen and check it out,,wish i could. what i have heard from first hand accounts is that the old shaolin ways are pretty much dead and that now the temple is a big tourist attraction designed to get the american currency flowing through it.
    you are from korea? do you take the hwarangdo system? lets chat.
    Many repsects, willow sword

    Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
    oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

  11. #41
    Yum Cha Guest

    Temple History

    I have a simple question, but I've been confused on the topic...
    What and where were the Shaolin temple(s)?
    and when?

    My limited understanding is that the first was in the south, it was destroyed, then the next was in the north, it was destroyed, then the monks moved south again. I don't believe this to be totally accuate. Canton, Fukien, Heinan?

    Obviously, one of the temples still stands, and has been re-opened to the west. Which one is it? Was it re-built, or is it an original?

    Thanks in advance.

  12. #42
    GeneChing Guest

    Check out my article

    It has received a lot of postive feedback, but strangely, no one has called me on the Kangxi point....

    Gene Ching
    Asst. Publisher
    Kungfu Qigong Magazine &

  13. #43
    Kung Lek Guest
    Ok Gene, I'll call you on it.

    The emperor was the secong Ching emperor, his name was Hsuan yeh his title was K'ang hsi.

    He supported the Jesuits in China during his reign and was quite tolerant and compiled plenty of literature with the help of many scholars, artists and craftsmen of the populace with the Jesuits being appointed as the court astronomers and mathmeticians. (the compilation of the Ming shih be one of the most notable efforts of the group he mustered in his service)
    In fact he allowed the French missionaries to erect a church in Peking during his reign!

    But there is not much note of his involvment with the Siu Lam monastery although he was a sponsor of the Song school of philosophy and ethics. (was this the Shaolin connection, or is The Song school seperate?)

    Anyway, that's about all I know (which ain't much :) , but hey, what can I say)


    Kung Lek

    Martial Arts Links

  14. #44
    Kung Lek Guest
    Want Tea - I mean...Yum Cha :D

    The first was in the North in Honan at Song mountain.
    The Southern temple in Fujian is still being debated by scholars even though ruins of a temple have been found there.

    The more notable temple in the area is the White Horse Temple.
    While many Shaolin Monks shared and exchanged knowledge with many other temples, including Taoists monasteries, these other temples both Buddhist and Taoist were not "Shaolin". Although a few of them also had martial traditions.

    So, the only solid evidential Shaolin Temple on record is the Temple at Song Shan. Having been erected around about 495 AD.


    Kung Lek

    Martial Arts Links

  15. #45
    GeneChing Guest

    Kung Lek

    Actually that's not what I meant, but nice to fill in some gaps. The predominent Shaolin myth is that Kangxi burned Shaolin, but there is also evidence of him writing that placard. As you mention , he was farily tolerent of religion. So I suggested that it was actually Shunzi since he took Fujian. To be honest, I'm not that stuck to this idea, I just put it out there to see if anyone would notice. Only one person raised an eyebrow so far - that was Sifu Benny Meng. But he loves challegning the dominent paradigm as much as I do. It's all postulation really, such is all history...

    Gene Ching
    Asst. Publisher
    Kungfu Qigong Magazine &

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