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Thread: Why is this not Understood?

  1. #1
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    Why is this not Understood?

    I want to know why so many martial artists of hard styles don't understand why Southern Mantis can't be used in it's traditional way. It is understood to me why this is. I'm asking why they can't understand this. It is simply because we are using our hands in ways you can't in MMA. They say it is useless not to be able to use it for trophies. I wish it would be understood that I don't get a belt or trophies in SPM, but it is far from useless. The style uses Chi and they can't develop Chi through a glove can they?
    It's not what you do, it's how you do it.
    It's not what you train, it's how you train it.

  2. #2
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    "The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves"

  3. #3

    Howling

    that is a good one indeed ! Very cool Ten Tigers
    Kune Belay Sau

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    I've seen Southern Mantis used in sport fighting (some kind of continuous medium contact point fighting). It worked pretty well, and though he didn't win under this rule set, it looked to me like he was the better fighter. His fighting even looked exactly like you see in their form work.

    Why can't chi go through a glove? And if there's a reason this is a problem, why can't you send chi through your feet, knees, or elbows?

  5. #5
    Gung fu is a way of life not a way of belts and trophies .MMA sucks anyway.
    Don't give up exceed your limit to see the heaven in the sky,compete with yourself to defeat what you were and become a gung fu man.

  6. #6
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    That really was a good answer. I always loved MMA as someone who didn't have any MA training and now that I'm training SPM, I think MMA is pointless. I am not training it so I can win trophies or have belts. I'm learning it because I really love martial arts. Most of the MMA fighters I've talked to are all fighting to be the best or whatever. That is ridiculous to me because no matter how good you are, there is always a style that will beat you. It's not so much I care that alot of people talk about styles like this in a bad way, I just wish I could understand not, at least, appreciating the style.
    It's not what you do, it's how you do it.
    It's not what you train, it's how you train it.

  7. #7
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    a man who has not tasted bitter cannot know sweet.


    (tt you ain't got the corner on fortune cookie wisdom round hyar but that was a perfect response lol )
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #8
    Someone please explain in detail why SPM won't work in mma or under a similar rule set?
    Sounds like an excuse for lack of experience. It's just plain silly to say that any CMA can only be used for fighting but not competition, mma, or whatever.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuHung
    Someone please explain in detail why SPM won't work in mma or under a similar rule set?
    Sounds like an excuse for lack of experience. It's just plain silly to say that any CMA can only be used for fighting but not competition, mma, or whatever.
    exzachary.

    any martial art, provided it is more than ritualistic dance can be adapted to fit an mma venue.

    If it's got punches, kicks throws and holds, you can make it fit.

    If you can't make it fit, you don't have kungfu there. You have something else...
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    exzachary.

    any martial art, provided it is more than ritualistic dance can be adapted to fit an mma venue.

    If it's got punches, kicks throws and holds, you can make it fit.

    If you can't make it fit, you don't have kungfu there. You have something else...

    Sorry, I disagree. There are plenty of excellent fighters, boxers and grapplers, who I think wouldn't do well in mma competitions. However, I know that they are not at all pushovers on the street. MMA is a specialization. To succeed, you must maximize and take advantage of every aspect of the rules and ring. You have to know what scores well with judges, in case you go to a draw. You must know what time limits you train within. It's an art in and of itself that not just any fighter off the street, no matter how good he is, can walk into. If he focus's on things outside the ruleset or outside the biases of the sport, he will not succeed in competition. If you don't train as the typical MMAst's train, I doubt you will do well in their arena.

    There is a whole other world out there. No hocus pocus or mysticism. Not "too deadly." But extremely effective on the street. This does not mean that what is effective in the ring is not effective in the street. Anything can work, if executed properly, in the street. Hell, if you are good at it, you have an extra ordinary chance of making it work. But the reverse is not true. Not everything that would be very useful on the street is appropriate for the ring. And as the ring gets more popular, and martial arts evolve along with the rulesets, many of useful techniques will simply cease to exist.

    On the subject of gloves, if you train so hard to be effective with them on, why train any of the hand conditioning and hand formations and techniques that the gloves don't allow? Please, don't even bother telling me that those things aren't useful and no, many are not "too deadly." But if you are training to win the UFC, why would you bother with them? You wouldn't. You'd focus only on the things that help you win.

  11. #11
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    so..uh, what exactly are you disagreeing with then?
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  12. #12
    .. i see where you lose many elements of the style and techniques when you have to follow rules and wear equipment.


    (..and I just wanted to show my new sig line !)


    "The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves" - TenTigers 6/29/06
    "The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves" - TenTigers 6/29/06
    佛山

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC
    .. i see where you lose many elements of the style and techniques when you have to follow rules and wear equipment.


    (..and I just wanted to show my new sig line !)


    "The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves" - TenTigers 6/29/06
    you follow rules to learn a style don't you?
    when you spar in your club, do you go as hard as mma? do you try to poke eyes?
    do you wear gear when you spar or do you train to pull all your punches before contact?

    all im saying is that if you can't take your basics into a competitive format then there is something askew with the basics you have.

    making style wars between mma v this or that is fruitless. If you want to compete in a more soft venue that's as cool as those who wish to take it up a notch.

    sanda/sanshou can be just as brutal as any bloodsport although there is definitely less ground work going on, but how is that not "stupid" as some people indicate that mma is?

    mma is what it is. Kungfu can totally step up to it and make it's way into the competitions and the kungfu guy who trains for that venue will do as well as his training and his will allows him.

    that is all
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    so..uh, what exactly are you disagreeing with then?

    "any martial art, provided it is more than ritualistic dance can be adapted to fit an mma venue."

    Perhaps I'm mistaken, but this seems to imply that any decent martial artist can enter a mma venue and do well, provided they punch, kick, etc. And I disagree, because I see MMA fighting as being very specialized for that venue. In many situations, you have to throw out a lot of useful things in your art to focus on what helps you win. Then you're art changes to be more of a MMA approach, which is unique in and of itself. It's not "adapted" but wholly changed. Many will argue that it is changing for the better, and evolving for the better- but I see a lot of loss not dictated by degree of efficacy, but by trends in the sport.

    In watching the Winky Wright fight with Taylor. Winky did not win for a number of reasons, but the one I hear often is that his defensive skills (considered one of the best defensive fighters) did not impress the judges as much as Taylor's power, even if those power punches had no effect. Should Winky change his style? If he wants to win more matches, wouldn't you coach him to do that? Even if nobody seems to be able to land an effective punch through his defense?

    A simplistic analysis, I know, but just illustrating a simple point.

    Merryprankster brought up the point that if you changed matches such that you needed a pin to win, the guard would cease to exist. Is the guard ineffective as a technique? No, but in this hypothetical sporting match, it would be useless. So why train it? How would a BJJer adapt? What if the BJJer didn't care about MMA comps? What if he did? How would he train accordingly? What wouldn't he train?

    Just a thought.

    Sorry, just saw your last post.
    Again, I disagree, you can't win a MMA match with just basics against that level of competition. You have to train like them to win against them. So if kung fu people want to win, they have to a large degree, wholeheartedly join MMA. Within the same rulesets, everybody will eventually look the same.
    Now, there is that whole other world I mentioned. Where a nonMMA ist can train very effectively for fighting but still not be successful for the ring. And an excellent MMA may not be as effective on the street. No, I'm not stereotyping or generalizing or getting into the MMA vs. the street bs. Just being objective. If you train a certain way, that is how you will fight. Yes, a mma can use his ring skills and kick ass on the street. Obviously, basics and skills translate, but elite fighters or sports people focus depending on their goals- which dictate what goes into their bag of tricks.
    Last edited by gabe; 06-30-2006 at 09:40 AM.

  15. #15
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    gabe-

    my kungfu says that in life and death situation, I use whatever is available.
    If I must pick up a stone and smash a skull, then that is what must be done. If I must turn a blade on someone, then that is what I must do. For real is for real and it's dirty so be dirty when you gotta be dirty.

    but, any martial artist can train towards a competitive venue and succeed regardless of the art they pursue and still use the art and what it's brought them to compete in that venue.

    whether it's a tag point match, san shou with gear or mma.

    You telling me you don't have anough useful punches, kicks, throws, evasion in your style that you can't cherry pick a few of those and drill the crap out of them while building up endurance and strength to compete?

    I think any martial art is capable of competing in a venue such as mma provides and one can be as viscious as the rules allow and still be a gentleman about it.

    If you are training on a firing range, then no, you won't be training for an mma venue, but then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you?

    anything that has punch, kick, throw, lock can be adapted to fight in the venue that is closest to reality which is mma.

    If Kungfu clubs take the san shou a little further it will look same same and perhaps the skills displayed will be different but it all comes down to one on one conflict.

    Kungfu belongs there as much as anything else really. after all it's martial art.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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