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Thread: Real Knife Attack - Real results

  1. #1
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    Real Knife Attack - Real results

    This happened a couple of months ago whan that thread on knife fighting was making the rounds, but I couldn't risk bringing it up while it was in the courts, now, the case has been heard, and here's the story.

    One of my Pak Mei brothers was attacked with a knife, this is what happened, not a theoretical what if, but what really did happen. I'm posting it for an example of not only the physical, but the legal results.

    Firstly, some background, of late, we've had a spate knife attacks and deaths in Sydney. In the last 2 months, I think 4 guys have died, and another 4 just gotten cut up. Usually gangs, usually under 25's, but not exclusively. Some even random. Blades are just a little too popular for my taste.

    My Pak Mei brother is very well trained and experienced, but not particularly fit these days. He started as a kid in 1991, and is now just 30. He's Chinese, weighs 74kg (I thought he was lighter), and is 5'5" more or less. He was attacked by a guy about 5'11" and maybe 75-80kg, early 20's. Basically, he is short and solid, the attacker was taller about the same weight (thinner by comparison). Probably Malaysian.

    The case was heard in the Sydney Darling Center courts on 9 August.

    The mugger accosted him on the street at night, pulled a knife and demanded his cash, my guy said, "leave me along, go away", and the guy thrust at him with the knife, demanding cash again.

    He grabbed the wrist from above, pulled, twisted, attacked the elbow with an upward arcing elbow, than snapped up under the corner of his jaw with his fist (the fist on the same arm as the elbow), breaking the jaw loose. It took about 3-5 seconds, it was right out of our forms training.

    The attacker had a dislocated wrist, broken elbow and jaw before he hit the ground.

    Security from a nearby building came running out, and bailed up my guy, thinking he was the attacker. The mugger had his knife on a chain still attached to his belt, so it was kinda obvious once the cops got there.

    My guy was accused of excessive force. They offered him a plea - plead guilty and pay a $2500 fine or go to a judge. He chose the judge, because he didn't want a conviction on his record.

    They made him stand up in court and demonstrate what he did, than found that being an experienced martial artist, he should have stopped when he broke the guys arm, and not hit him in the jaw.

    The female judge agreed not to record a conviction, but my guy had to pick up the bill for his medical, $1500 "on compassionate grounds". The Mugger, still in hospital, got 3 months for armed robbery.

    He was told by his solicitor that the case will probably go on-line into the law school becasue it is a rare example of the victim having to pay the attacker.

    I reckon that sux.

    In all fairness, the mugger was a dropkick, and my Pak Mei brother is rather experienced, but not a full-on athlete, he's a bit out of shape by his own admission. He has a good deal of 'real' fighting experience, both in HK and Sydney, but back 10 years ago, mostly. Nevertheless, he was threatened with deadly force, and he did not respond with deadly force.

    He reckons he should have given the guy the $300 he was carrying and been done with it there and than.

    Anybody care to comment?

  2. #2
    I learned a similar lesson under different circumstances. It wasn't a robbery, it was protecting my family. No Knife. He was bigger by about 40-60 lbs., younger, dumber and lost with 5 stitches to his scalp, which was incidental. I even tried to treat the wound.

    I learned, in today's society, the only way to win legally is if you lose the fight. This is the twisted world we live in. In my opinion if you threaten someone you get what you asked for morally and as simple common sense. Unfortunately, the liberal legal system seems to side with the loser regardless of whether he was responsible for the fight and views them as the true victim. The loss of the money from a robbery is not worth the hassle or the cost of court or the aggravation to learn that the courts favor the bad guy if he loses.

    All in all I would say your friend learned a valuable lesson. I opted for a process that would leave me with no criminal record as well.

  3. #3
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    Sorry to hear about that Yum Cha - that sucks.

    The only thing I might have considered doing differently is running as soon as he dropped the guy - before the security guard got there.

    even if you come out on top, and are in the right - better to get the hell out of there and forget the whole thing ever happened, than stand around and wait for the cops.

    If he had no choice - ie. the security guard bailed him up before he could have run away - why was it known that he was "an experienced martial artist"?

    My sifu has always said - if you are forced into a fight, and cops get involved, never reveal that you are a martial artist... at least voluntarily.

  4. #4
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    1) Congrats to your mate. He's lucky to be alive, and I'm happy he got away unscathed and used his MA to good effect.

    2) Be careful to anyone on the board regarding this as exoneration of forms, or the validity of MA-trained unarmed defenders against offensive knifers. I've been in knife situations and I've got out ASAP. One time I had to attack the guy to get away, but not really through choice. Even then my pride and anger nearly had me staying there as I wanted to take his ****ing head off. Most knife attacks with a determined attacker will end in you dying or getting seriously mutilated. This guy was lucky that his attacker was a bit useless. I hope the three months inside won't toughen him up like a longer sentence would! Otherwise next time he threatens someone with a knife he may actually kill them.

    3) Three months is atrocious. An attack with a knife should be attempted murder.

    4) Your mate having to pay is atrocious. He as the victim should get compensation from his attacker for inconvenience and any kind of PTSD he MAY suffer at some point in the future.

    5) If it were me I would defend this kind of case myself or at least work very closely with the lawyer. Every kind of case like this where the victim ends up paying is an affront to the legal system and the product of a flawed law which needs changing. And every case is perpetuating this insanity. Most judges talk about wanting to be tough on violent crime. So how did this abuse of the law come about? Through bs politicians and lawyers abusing the system for a few quid.

    If it were me I would consider it my duty to fight this kind of bs. I would refuse to pay any hosptital bills and if charged or threatened with court I would demand a retrial and hit the news with it bigtime. If I was sent down I would refuse to cooperate every step of the way and claim that I was a political prisoner as politically and morally there should be no way society could condone this kind of abuse of the law (which supposedly is designed to protect the citizen). I would try to get Amnesty International, and the UN and every other international human rights body on my side.

    Given that Tony Martin nearly caused a major upset in the English legal system and I'm coherent and relatively eloquent, and plainly not too nuts I think some kind of case like this could affect change in the system for the better.

    How else can we fight this kind of abuse of justice if not by using logic, truth and the justice system itself?

    I appreciate many people do not feel the same way but I don't think there is any other criminal law issue I feel stronger about than this. I've thought about this issue a lot, having been a victim and near-victim of violent crime several times.

    6) I do not think this is a problem with 'liberal legal system' as does Scott Brown. I could just as easily argue that it's a conservative legal abuse from the idea of putting physical damage and compensation over concepts such as basic rights to human life. However, I feel this problem has come about through lax moral values perpetuated by among other things a deteriorating legal system. The legislature, executive and administration should have a large degree of separation in any democracy, so making this a political problem paves the way for BS rhetorical politicians to make it their hobby-horse and water down any results instead of causing any real change. It has to be changed through the judiciary and the justice system itself.

    7) Not telling people you're a martial artist if you get caught would look very bad, as though you had something to hide. Explaining logically as part of your defence that no MA is infallible or even as dangerous as the common TV perception and logically demonstrating a simple knife scenario in court would have a better effect if you ask me.

    Rant over.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  5. #5
    cjurakpt Guest
    what I find preposterous is that, in the split second it took from your friend to go from the elbow strike to the jaw shot, the court felt he ought to have had the presence of mind to realize that he had broken the elbow of the attacker thereby incapacitating him to the point where the jaw shot was unecessary and therfore excessive

    to be honest, I think your friend had lousy legal representation - how on earth could an attorney allow a client who was threatened with a deadly waepon be held accountable for some relatively minor physical damage? I mean, he was afraid for his LIFE, for chrissakes...as far as excessive, your friend could have just as quickly killed the attacker if he had incapacitated him to the degree described (I'm sure it took more than 5 seconds more for the security guards to come, and that would have been plenty of time to do something really nasty); also, it strikes me as odd that the police noticed the knife on the chain but the security guys didn't?

    anyway, I can't imagine that a jury in the world would convict based on this situation - and where was the press? an journalist worth their salt would JUMP all over a piece like this, for exactly the reasons everyone else seems to be...not to mention any local anti-crime politician would be salivating to make this their cause celebre...I dunno, sounds weird...

  6. #6
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    Very well said both Mr Punch and Cjurakpt

    Mr P - what I meant was certainly not to hide any MA training, or deny it if asked - simply not go out and volunteer "oh I did that cos I'm a martial artist" type thing.

    Obviously if asked you would have no choice other than to admit that you train, but why volunteer that info? Thats my point.

    That said, Im sure it would probably come out in court, so I don't really know what I was getting at... just a thought I guess...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt View Post
    what I find preposterous is that, in the split second it took from your friend to go from the elbow strike to the jaw shot, the court felt he ought to have had the presence of mind to realize that he had broken the elbow of the attacker thereby incapacitating him to the point where the jaw shot was unecessary and therfore excessive

    to be honest, I think your friend had lousy legal representation - how on earth could an attorney allow a client who was threatened with a deadly waepon be held accountable for some relatively minor physical damage? I mean, he was afraid for his LIFE, for chrissakes...as far as excessive, your friend could have just as quickly killed the attacker if he had incapacitated him to the degree described (I'm sure it took more than 5 seconds more for the security guards to come, and that would have been plenty of time to do something really nasty); also, it strikes me as odd that the police noticed the knife on the chain but the security guys didn't?

    anyway, I can't imagine that a jury in the world would convict based on this situation - and where was the press? an journalist worth their salt would JUMP all over a piece like this, for exactly the reasons everyone else seems to be...not to mention any local anti-crime politician would be salivating to make this their cause celebre...I dunno, sounds weird...
    Completely correct on all counts. Of course your first paragraph is what incenses me: it's so ****ing illogical that a man who is being threatened with his life would have the prepossession and control to make split-second judgments like that. The ****ing beak must have taken his image of MA solely from in the movies and TV. Wankers.

    Er, OK, maybe now my rant is over.

    Cheers Finny. If you hadn't mentioned it straight away the crim's lawyers would jump all over you. Parasites.
    Last edited by Mr Punch; 08-21-2006 at 06:19 AM. Reason: I like the godlike feeling of power.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  8. #8
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    here's my comment:

    the guy protected himself and was punished for doing so by people who don't have a clue about the rapidity of an altercation.

    Honestly for someone to say "you should have stopped at point x in the confrontation" exhibits a complete lack of understanding of teh dynamics of a confrontation.

    ergo: according to your story, your guy was in the right, the mugger got what he had coming and your legal system is mentally retarded.

    your mate should appeal the decision. The people should activate and have those laws changed.

    If people knew they would have to pay a penalty for protecting themselves and that bandits were given equal consideration even when guilty, I think that would incite a little change.

    hard to say though, living in a commonwealth country myself, I know how retarded and castrated the self defense laws are. It's almost as if a martial artist politician or judge has to do something of the same bent in order for the stupid interpretations of law to end.

    [/comment]
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  9. #9
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    The ****ing beak must have taken his image of MA solely from in the movies and TV. Wankers.
    for those of you in the non-Commonwealth countries, or who never saw the movie "Oliver Twist", "beak" refers to magistrate / judge; "wankers" on the other hand should be self-evident...

    - Cross-Cultural Chris

  10. #10
    For those of you railing against the legal system, you are assuming that the confrontation actually occured as the OP stated. Personally, I have my doubts based on both the improbability of this playing out the way it supposedly did against a knife-weilding aggressor and the dubiousness of a jury awarding damages to the attacker.

  11. #11
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    Hold the presses for a minute...This is impossible! Are you actually saying that a KF guy defended himself? You're sure he didn't spend a summer doing BJJ or Muay Thai? Isn't what you're claiming technically impossible! I'm pretty sure you meant to say that he does MMA.
    A unique snowflake

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    For those of you railing against the legal system, you are assuming that the confrontation actually occured as the OP stated. Personally, I have my doubts based on both the improbability of this playing out the way it supposedly did against a knife-weilding aggressor and the dubiousness of a jury awarding damages to the attacker.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  13. #13
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    Winter palm,

    If he did MMA he would have KILLED the other guy!!! hahaha

    Yum Cha,

    Great news mate, this happened to me when working in the pyschc wards and St Vincent hospital, i was attacked with a syringe, broken the guys Humorous with a quick shoulder bash and arm lock. The cops was called and i went to court, the cops said you used as much force as was necessary thats what you say in court and i got off. Broken peoples fingers on the way in to grabben, attacked with knoves and screw drivers! Sydney is getting worse dude!!

    Better go and practise my FORMS more incase the **** really goes down and i will have to pull out something from Day Sut Kuen and it will be all over!

    On a serious note, he is very lucky he got away with his life cause real attacks when they want to stab you they dont ask for money they walk pass and bleed you without you knowing. When someone ask for money most of these thugs exspect to get the money given without a fight and i guess your bro took him by suprise. Good for him it worked and he lives maybe he is reicarnation of CTS? Just kidding lama boys!!

    Gaz

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPalm View Post
    Hold the presses for a minute...This is impossible! Are you actually saying that a KF guy defended himself? You're sure he didn't spend a summer doing BJJ or Muay Thai? Isn't what you're claiming technically impossible! I'm pretty sure you meant to say that he does MMA.
    Are you angry about being romped on the regular by MMA cats?

    Interesting story, Yum Cha. I like the M. Night Shamalyan twist at the end. I think the courts shouldn't have made your pal pay for the f@cks hospital bills. He's the one who had the upper hand with a knife, (by your account) he initiated the fray, and was stupid enough to doubt his opponent.

    Who knows? Maybe he's one of those "I'll take out my knife to scare people," f@gs.
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  15. #15
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    Yes, its a bit of an outrageous result, I guess that's my point. If my si Dai handn't been before the courts on similar charges twice before, it might have played out different.

    The security guards were on him before he knew it, and good thing too, he was just getting ready to go to town on the guy once his blood was up. But, that's neither here nor there.

    He was attacked with deadly force, he reacted with less than deadly force. I reckon it should be closed at that point. Its funny, he didn't get a conviction, but he was told to pay the hospital bills by the judge. I'm no expert in Australian legal system, but that sounds like a bit of judicial discretion. The Jury said not guilty.

    He could have appealed, but it all costs money, and all he cares about is getting out of it as cheaply as possible, without a conviction, and his solicitor told him this was it, they cost $$$ even if you win. I think the judge knows that too.

    Knifefighter you are skeptical as to the truth, well, that's your perogative. Its public record now, Sydney Dalrling Centre Courthouse, 9 August 2006 the decision was rendered. As I said, of all people I thought this would interest you. Take it for what you will, it makes no difference to me.

    Like I said, Si Dai is good. Very good. 15 years of training makes a difference. Don't for one second think he's just a forms guy. But, forms training is where he got his fundamental skills, and what gave his his reaction time. Anybody ever heard Pak Mei is brutal? QED.

    What won it for him on the day was the ability to disable the attacker before the attacker knew to take it seriously, or had time to react. He pulled him in, which probably surprised him, and hit specific targets known to be weak points with full power, drawing upon trained moves practiced thousands and thousands of times.

    If you try to wrestle with a guy over a knife, he figures out pretty quick that things are getting serious. The armed attacker always has the advantage. Run the odds yourself.

    Anybody see the video of the 4 Hispanic guys wrestling the one Black guy over the gun? 2 died, one got badly wounded, and the guy got away? 4 on 1? Can't fault the dead guys for courage...

    Draw your own conclusions, make your own rationalisations to fit your pre-conceptions if you must, but whatever you do, don't take on a knife if you don't have to, for a whole text book full of reasons. Si Dai came up against an idiot who didn't have a clue, and thought having a knife was enough. Agreed, it wasn't a ninja assassin with blade training and murder on his mind. Again, run the odds and figure out what's most likely to happen to you.

    I think all this talk about wrestling knives is bloody dangerous, really bloody dangerous. And these videos of "real life" knife practice where the guys keep fighting a 1/2 strength, not even hitting their attackers with closed fists, while the guy with the toy knife does the equivalent of carving them up like a Christmas goose is a macho GAME that will get you killed in real life quicker than a walk through Bagdad in a "I love Bush" T-shirt. But hey, games can be fun, as long as everybody realises its a game.

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