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Thread: Boxing vs. MMA

  1. #46
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    Wel, its been awhile, but I'm back.

    I remember I said something like this before, so I'll say it again. A good boxer, De la Hoya, Hopkins, Calzagi, Mayweather, etc could and would beat any MMA fighter. For the very reason that boxers have great footwork and are great with their hands. I am not hating on MMA guys footwork, they do have good footwork, and have very good hands, thats why Liddell has so many knockouts, but they are not up to a boxer's standards. Boxer's punches are so powerful that they have to wear those really padded gloves. If a good boxer punched a MMA guy with those thin gloves that MMA guy would go down fast.

    Boxers would use their footwork to stay out of grapples and to keep away from submissions.

  2. #47
    cjurakpt Guest
    well, here's the thing: a good boxer has excellent footwork, true - but that's in relation to another boxer; in other words, his good footwork and the powerful shots he can generate using this footwork is predicated on the notion that his opponent will be only trying to punch him and will pretty much stay at the same distance / level; meaning that he would have to adjust his game to contend with kicks and with things like a shoot (and again, his footwork is not inherently designed to avoid a shoot, and certainly not to counter strike while he is avoiding one); certainly, he could modify his game accordingly, but the "problem" is that when you have someone who is so highly specialized at something, tweaking it can be a biotch, especially if the skill sets are similar, the ingrained pattern may surface inappropriately, and even "get in the way"

    point is, MMA is MMA - it's a mixed group of skills sets, because it takes place over a greater variety of ranges, whereas boxing is mostly punching range, with some clinching, but the goal of clinching in boxing is much different than in MMA - in the former it's a dead-end street, so to speak; in the latter it's both a potential striking range, and a portal into grappling / throwing / ground range (or something like that -point is, it's not an end unto itself)

    so, good boxer would definitely have an advantage in punching range, but he'd be at a disadvantage in the others: I think that a good MMA guy would exploit the fact that he'd be better at 3 out of 4 ranges...
    Last edited by cjurakpt; 12-03-2007 at 04:46 PM.

  3. #48
    The day will come sooner or later when mma events start to get more popular and almost as lucrative as boxing. At which point a number or quality boxers will start to jump ship and do some crosstraining.

    Stay tuned for a lot of knockouts!

  4. #49
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    I love boxing. I'm really looking forward to Hatton-Mayweather and Calzaghe vs Wright/Hopkins/anyone who has the balls to face him without suddenly switching fight purses...! However, it's a different game.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDISBEST View Post
    For the very reason that boxers have great footwork and are great with their hands.
    Boxers have good footwork against boxers.
    Boxer's punches are so powerful that they have to wear those really padded gloves.
    You've got that backwards. Those gloves were developed and so boxers can punch that way.
    Boxers would use their footwork to stay out of grapples and to keep away from submissions.
    LOL, JKD doesn't have kicks?! You're talking woulds and coulds when don't forget we've seen what happens before: Mercer and Botha were never top flight but neither of them are slouches, and both of them have gone down to reasonably competant kickers frequently, and that's just in K1. Boxers have to get in close to avoid kicks and longer shots, and that's when the grappling comes in for the usual GnP scenario.

    The only example of a good boxer who's made it in MMA is Kid Yamamoto, and that's because he's also an Olympic standard wrestler.

    On anotehr note, the only reason MMA purses aren't going up is because of the UFC monopoly and exclusive contracts. I can't believe Zuffa, White et al let Pride die: one of the best promotions in one of the ripest scenes with reasonable pay for the fighters; and I really hope that the new Japanese promotion (Sengoku is it?) with its non-exclusive contracts takes off, and provides some disgruntled fighters between contracts with a good stage for fighting people they should get to see... like Fedor-Couture for example, sicne they're both out the loop right now. Then you'd really see UFC having to up their purses and the MMA industry would really take off. Until then it's never going to be a challenge to boxing economically.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  5. #50

    Quote from cjurakpt and response:

    "so, good boxer would definitely have an advantage in punching range, but he'd be at a disadvantage in the others:"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Possibly. Apples and oranges. However good boxers with a little training can adjust . Ranges are not static. Fluidity and timing -key to the dynamics.The Klitchko(sp?) brothers did kick boxing as well. Plus people like Duran and Hopkins have other real fighting backgrounds as well. Also at the top levels boxing pays much more than mma matches upto now.
    It takes a while to develop a good boxer-golden gloves, PAL, Armed Forces teams, Olympics etc.
    Americans are not going into boxing much any more. The big guys can make more money in the NFL and NBA,. The hungry boxers and their demography is changing- Eastern Europe for the heavies, UK at middle weight and some in welter, Hispanics including Puerto Rican and Mexicans
    at the lower weights and some Fillipinos and Thais.

    Americans right now still have the edge in wielding the remote control.<g>And chit chatting about the boob tube on the net.

    joy chaudhuri

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    However good boxers with a little training can adjust .
    LOL @ thinking "a little training" is all it takes. No matter who you are, or how good you are at boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, etc, it takes a whole lot of training to start to get good at MMA these days. A boxer can no more jump into MMA with just a little training than Michael Jordan could jump from basketball to baseball.

  7. #52
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    Having done both boxing and MMA and competed in both, though the MMA was still at its "infancy" at the time ( quality is much better know), I can tell you that boxing skills are not transferable to MMA without some serious tinkering.
    The good part is that the base power is still there, you bring it with you and in many ways you are ahead of the curve when it comes to hand striking, BUT, you need to learn how to apply it in a whole new context.
    You can't stand the same way, your opponent doesn't stand the same way, you can't move the same way, your opponent doesn't move the same way, the rope work is differen, the cutting off the ring is different, don't evne get into the clinch.

    Its like taking a world class sprinter and through him into the decathalon, he will win the 100 meter, but what about the 9 other events ?
    Psalms 144:1
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #53
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    Boxers would use their footwork to stay out of grapples and to keep away from submissions

    I'm not going to bust your chops on this one but, come on man, you need some coffee or something?

    Apparently you haven't grappled much? Don't know. Take a comparable high school wrestler. Put him against a comparable boxer. Wrestler will use skill take down boxer... nullify hands. Fights pretty much over. This conversation has been drove into the ground hundreds of times and The fact that it's been proven that a boxer in an MMA environment will not succeed, seems to still illude some folks.


    Now flip it around put a boxer in his settings a ring with just the use of hand, it's a different fight then. Boxer will probably win.
    Seems like simple logic to me, if you train a certain way then you'll fight that way.
    Boxer in an MMA cage is like fish outta water in some aspects.

  9. #54

    Mr Punch sez:

    On anotehr note, the only reason MMA purses aren't going up is because of the UFC monopoly and exclusive contracts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Possibly, probably. Additionally in addition to money issues, there are other demographic issues .
    Also MMA thus far appears to be a media based activity. In contrast...boxing, wrestling, football
    have deep amateur feeder systems in the US reaching down to junior high in many states.
    joy chaudhuri

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    On anotehr note, the only reason MMA purses aren't going up is because of the UFC monopoly and exclusive contracts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Possibly, probably. Additionally in addition to money issues, there are other demographic issues .
    Also MMA thus far appears to be a media based activity. In contrast...boxing, wrestling, football
    have deep amateur feeder systems in the US reaching down to junior high in many states.
    joy chaudhuri
    So does MMA.... Wrestling, amatur boxing, kick boxing, and all the many youth martial arts programs feed the local MMA orginizations once the kids get older. Then the regional orginizations pick who they like best out of the local events. Then the UFC and other bigg time orginizations recrute out of the regionals. And just like in colledge, if you are on a Team that is known to win, you got a better chance of being noticed by the scouts...
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
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  11. #56
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    hometown advantage

    I'm not sure I agree the implication that there's no hometown advantage in MMA.

    Hanging 'em up
    The once-popular boxing is now losing much of its fanbase to new forms of physical competition

    By: Mike Withers

    The Ultimate Fighting Championship is the fastest growing sport in the country. It continues to set pay-per view records and dominates the 18-35 age bracket, according to Dana White, the president of the UFC. Thus, leaving the sport of boxing in the dust.

    The owner of the UFC is Lorenzo Fertita, a successful businessman who also owns the Palace, Sunset and Santa Fe Station casinos in Las Vegas.

    "Everything the Fertita family touches turns to gold,"said Jimmy Jackson, a former employee of the Fertita family.

    Jimmy Jackson is now the manager of the Westminster Boxing Club in Westminster, and is a boxing purist. Yet he finds himself out buying mixed martial arts gloves for one of his female fighters on Tuesday morning.

    "MMA is a new fad that's here to stay," Jackson said. "I'm looking into getting a wrestling mat and an octagon. We have to accept this sport if we want to survive."

    Jackson is one of the many people that understand how the fighting world is changing.

    "Most people are MMA fans, and come here to train in MMA," said TJ Lancaster, general manager of LA Boxing in Fullerton. "It's a much more explosive sport."

    Bobby Nader, a Cal State Fullerton student and MMA fan enjoys MMA over the more-traditional boxing.

    "I like it because it combines all aspects of fighting," Nader said. "We all learn how to box first, but MMA combines boxing with wrestling, Ju-Jitsu, and Muay Tai. It's more of a real fight."

    Nader, without question, is in the majority. MMA has grown so quickly that it is even receiving coverage on ESPN's SportsCenter, something that boxing rarely gets. Even the Oscar De La Hoya-Floyd Mayweather fight, which was touted as a fight of the decade, saw little coverage on the show.

    But when Chuck Liddel and Quinton Jackson fought in the UFC, it was all over SportsCenter.

    "MMA is grabbing the WWE fan base," Jackson said.

    Jackson said what MMA is doing right, is it allows anyone a chance at fighting, and will then give that person a fair shot at winning. A fair shot is something that does not always happen in boxing.

    "It's still the same old people in [boxing fights.] Marco Antonio Barrera has been around forever, somebody else should get those title shots," Jackson said.

    Jackson added that even when boxers do get those title shots, it's not always a fair change. Jackson used the example of Steve Forbes and Demetrius Hopkins, who is the nephew of Bernard Hopkins. Jackson said anybody who saw that fight would say that Forbes won it easily, yet Hopkins got the decision.

    A lot of people do not know the fight was headed by Golden Boy Promotion, a promotional team owned by Oscar De La Hoya. One of De Le Hoya's main partners is Bernard Hopkins, uncle of Demetrius. Many people in boxing circles feel that the fight was fixed.

    "That is the [stuff] that has to stop," Jackson said.

    He said it was good that fighters like De La Hoya and Hopkins are moving into the promotional side of things, thereby forcing people like Don King and Bob Arum out of the picture. But, Jackson said they still need to give fighters a fair chance.

    "If you are fighting someone in their home town, you almost have to knock the guy out because it would be so hard to get the decision," Jackson said.

    Something similar to that would never happen in MMA. Granted, most fights end in a knockout, but the fact that a fighter is fighting in his hometown, or is the favorite coming into the bout, is rarely a factor in MMA fights.

    Therefore, corruption that is perceived to run rampant in boxing is minimal in MMA.

    It is clear that boxing needs to change its ways. Almost every other sport in America has made changes to make that sport more fan friendly. In baseball, the fields have gotten smaller to induce more home runs. In football, you can't hit the quarterback, and in basketball, the contact you can make as a defensive player has been minimized.

    Many boxing purists feel that such changes need to be made in the sport they love. Possible options are rewarding points to the boxer who is pressing the fight, or withholding a portion of the purse from the boxer if they are not fighting, which is done in Pride Fighting (a version of MMA). HBO's Larry Merchant even suggested shrinking the ring.

    Jimmy Jackson doesn't think it is that complicated.

    "People just need to be more honest, and get more fighters exposure rather than the same guys," Jackson said.

    "Boxing isn't going to die. It has been around forever and it will always be around. It's a great sport."
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    I'm not sure I agree the implication that there's no hometown advantage in MMA.
    I totally disagree with it. I've seen more than a few.

    One little question about boxers in MMA - if their footwork is good enough to avoid grappling, why do they keep getting caught in clinches in their boxing matches?
    "My only 'aesthetic' is to be the guy who's NOT lying down on the ground broken." - WaterDragon

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeCasebolt View Post
    One little question about boxers in MMA - if their footwork is good enough to avoid grappling, why do they keep getting caught in clinches in their boxing matches?
    ...and how is their footwork going to help them if they get caught in a MT clinch, with knees and elbows?

    ...or how would they use their footwork against a kicker with good footwork and distancing skill?

    ...it's more than just footwork, or excellence in any one range of fighting...
    Sapere aude, Justin.

    The map is not the Terrain.

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  14. #59
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    somewhat relevant

    MMA under boxing commission jurisdiction in Minnesota?

    Pulling no punches; Stillwater's John Cass joins state boxing commission
    By KRIS JANISCH

    As a boy growing up in Boston, John E. Cass often watched boxing matches with his father on Saturday nights.

    Cass will soon be a little closer to the action - Gov. Tim Pawlenty appointed the Stillwater resident to the state Boxing Commission on Dec. 7.

    A retired 10th Judicial District trial judge, Cass' interest in the position was somewhat piqued by the state Legislature's decision to bring the increasingly popular mixed martial arts (MMA) under the commission's supervision.

    "I though that would be pretty interesting, to help out and get involved with that," Cass said Tuesday. "Whether you like (mixed martial arts) or not, it's a very popular thing, and somebody ought to regulate it properly."

    In September, Cass applied for the commission, which has one specific slot for a retired judge - "Don't ask me why," he said. Today, he was set to meet with other commissioners, including the body's chair, former heavyweight title contender Scott LeDoux, to find out more about his new role.

    The Minnesota Boxing Commission is fairly new. Lawmakers created the board in 2006 and its responsibilities were expanded to include mixed martial arts earlier this year.

    The commission has sole supervision, regulation and jurisdiction over all boxing and "tough person" contests held within the state, including licensing and rule making, among other responsibilities. Its purpose is to "protect health, promote safety and ensure fair boxing and mixed martial arts events," according to a release from the Governor's Office. Cass will serve a four-year term that expires Jan. 3, 2011.

    Cass said his decision to apply for the commission was also influenced by his interest in Chris Reinke, an amateur boxer from the St. Croix Valley who often fights at the Uppercut Gym in Minneapolis.

    In terms of popularity, boxing in Minnesota has seen its share of ups and downs over the years, said Jesse Kelley, editor of Minnesotaboxing.com. But with a number of strong amateur fighters in the state turning pro - and often fighting each other - the sport seems to be on the upswing, he said.

    Kelley, who founded Minnesotaboxing.com about five years ago, said MMA's rising popularity could be linked to the notion that most boxing cards include one good fight, while MMA events typically have several entertaining matches.

    "I love it," he said of MMA.

    And the rise of MMA is reflected in the commission's new makeup: three members must have knowledge of the boxing industry, while four must be well versed in the mixed martial arts industry. Pawlenty also appointed Gary Brintnall, RD Brown, Robert Dolan, Matthew Henderson, Chad Ridler, and Robert A. Stein; and reappointed Patrick R. Fallon.

    Regarding the Minnesota Boxing Commission, Kelley said promoters have been frustrated with the body at times, taking fights to Wisconsin or the Dakotas instead. The recent turnover should be a good thing, he said.

    "With all these new people involved, it's going to be better," Kelley said. "I'm kind of excited to see what happens and where (the commission) goes."

    Likewise for Cass, though he said athletically he's more of a basketball player - on Tuesday he had returned home from a regular game at the Stillwater Armory.

    And while he hadn't yet been briefed on his duties as a commissioner, Cass was quick to name his favorite fighter of all time.

    "Rocky Marciano," he said, naming the undefeated heavyweight. "Being from Massachusetts and growing up in Boston, he was the greatest."
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  15. #60
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    Her business is fighting

    This could sit well in the Women in MMA thread too. Click for pic. Reid is striking (ok, bad pun, sorry).

    Female boxer breaking new ground in MMA
    Reid will be first boxing world champ to participate in MMA bout
    By David A. Avila
    updated 7:21 a.m. PT, Thurs., Dec. 27, 2007

    Elena “Baby Doll” Reid, the current flyweight champion of the world in boxing, makes her debut in the world of mixed martial arts against Tammie Schneider.

    “I’m a fighter,” explains Reid. “Whether it’s boxing, or MMA, I like to fight.”

    Reid becomes the first boxing world champion to participate in an MMA bout, beating Rid**** Bowe and Floyd Mayweather to the punch when she meets Schneider at the Riviera Hotel in Las Vegas on Friday.
    Story continues below ↓advertisement

    “Fireworks in the Cage 4” won't be televised.

    Women who are attractive and petite usually don’t fit very well in the fight world, but Reid has spent the past seven years perfecting her craft in professional prizefighting.

    So why is she moving to MMA?

    “These past two years I’ve tried hard to get a fight in boxing, and it hasn’t worked out,” said Reid, 26, who has the IFBA and WIBA flyweight world titles in boxing. “It was very frustrating.”

    In her last boxing match, she fought Shin-Hee Choi, the IFBA flyweight titleholder from Korea. Though Reid hadn’t fought in almost a year, the possibility of rust affecting her in the unification match between flyweight champions didn’t faze her.

    Reid obliterated Choi over 10 rounds of one-sided action.

    But now she’s in MMA.

    “It’s so different,” Reid said. “The training is different.”

    Her trainer, Chris Benn, works the corner of MMA super star Randy Couture. In an effort to make his schedule easier, Benn invited Reid to train at Xtreme Couture. She quickly became interested in adding yet another wrinkle to her fighting prowess with jujitsu. Now she’s making her MMA pro debut.

    “She’s pretty good, as you can see,” said Dennis Davis, who sported a black left eye from working on takedown defense with Reid.

    After more than a year of training in one of the most popular MMA gyms in the country, Reid attracted the eye of Couture and his wife, Kim, who liked the female fighter’s work ethic. They signed her three weeks ago to a contract.

    “Randy Couture has been giving her a lot of advice,” said Sean O’Heir, the public relations director for Team Couture. “He wants to make sure she isn’t sandbagged.”

    Now with her MMA debut within sight, Reid mentally slips into her fighting mode.

    “Most people are surprised by my other side, my fighting side,” Reid said. “In the ring or the cage I’m all business.”

    Her business is fighting.

    “I only have a few years to do this so I’m taking advantage of my youth,” said Reid, who wants to defend her boxing titles later in the year.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

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