View Poll Results: Did I convince you?

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  • Yes.

    4 23.53%
  • No, but I already felt that way.

    8 47.06%
  • No, GRRRRR MMA RULES, TCMA SUCKS... UGH BLAH GRAH!!!!

    1 5.88%
  • No, Sifu David Carradine embodies the true spirit of Kung Fu.

    4 23.53%
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Thread: Blame David Carradine, MMA vs. TCMA, Chest-beating, and why Iíve come not to care

  1. #1

    Blame David Carradine, MMA vs. TCMA, Chest-beating, and why Iíve come not to care

    To me, David Carradine represents all the wrong things that people look for in TMA. He represents a shallow esotericism for the sake of feeling “cool”. They then call it “philosophy,” or more appallingly, Buddhism and Taoism. He represents an obsession with hierarchy and formalities that reflect said shallow esotericism. He represents corny 50s TV morals rolled into fortune cookie form that become the virtues of the “philosophy.” The 50s TV morals seem to be the major hook for soccer moms, and the shallow esotericism to the LARPers. However, they are both part of the same strand. But guess what? This isn’t limited to TCMA, as much of the talk on this forum seems to assume.
    JMA has tons of mcdojos and LARPers and the situation with KMA looks the worst. Believe it or not, there was once a time when Tae Kwan Do meant hard training! So TCMA is not alone. I’d also think that there are far less schools that claim TCMA then JMA and KMA. Sure, there are bad apples, but there are still plenty of good schools out there. If you are in one, surely you must know of others. The CMA world is rather connected. So obviously you must know that there is good stuff being taught out there.
    Then we come to the MMA vs. TCMA thing. Why do TCMA people let it get to them to the point they start questioning what they do? As mentioned before, CMA isn’t only a grouping of styles, it’s an inter-connected community. It’s not really part of the MMA world. CMA have their own tournaments available to them if they want to. Why go MMA? Not to mention, what if someone doesn’t care about competing? That doesn’t make them bad martial artists. There are loads of skilled MA who don’t do sport fighting.
    And how’s about all this chest-thumping that MMA seems to be bringing on? Honestly, as stated before, I am anything BUT for stupid David Carradine style shallowness and morals. But come on! Constant bragging, posturing, and taunting are not qualities I admire. Maybe it’s just me, but anyone notice lots of dumb jock types getting into MMA? Coincidence? I think not. Frankly, if I wanted to watch that kind of thing, I’d turn on pro-wrestling. They’ve had years of practice to perfect those antics lol. Why fall prey to that? This, and the sloppiness of many MMA players (come on, UFC striking does not look like Muay Thai from Thailand to me) turn me off to it.
    My point is for the TCMA people on this board. If what you do is worthwhile, why do you care what MMA people on the internet have to say? The fact is that there are good TCMA schools out there. To me, the worth of TCMA is self-evident. I don’t really care what MMA people think about it. I really don’t like these TCMA vs. MMA threads, but it appears that all this internet talk has gotten to people. If I can get at least a few posters to do what I decided to do awhile ago, this thread will have been a success. What is that you may ask? Largely ignore the MMA propaganda, and go back to talking mostly about TCMA. After all, this IS a Kung Fu forum!
    Last edited by The Xia; 10-05-2007 at 11:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    uhhh xia?

    you drunk or somethin? dude you have posted better things. This is Stupid. Put down the sake and have some coffee or go to sleep man.


    Peace,TWS
    It makes me mad when people say I turned and ran like a scared rabbit. Maybe it was like an angry rabbit, who was going to fight in another fight, away from the first fight.

  3. #3
    Wonder what it was like before he edited it. Gotta be drunk or high.....sounds like his friends just dropped him off home after a night out.

  4. #4
    All I did was add this "After all, this IS a Kung Fu forum!" when I edited it.

  5. #5
    I only posted this because I'm noticing that all this internet BS seems to actually be changing people's minds.

  6. #6
    I was just kidding so don't get insulted. Just having fun.

    Anyway, just want to say that I don't really share your view on "Kung-fu" the series. The original series anyway. I don't think it's TV morals at all. I think that the life wisdom espoused by Master Po was quite good (I mean well written and meaningfull). But, I agree that the show doesn't represent what TCMA is factually. I think it's the fantasy of what people (including myself) want TCMA to be about. Morality, self-discipline, hard work, etc.

    At the same time, we owe the show some gratitude. At that time it got many people curious and interested in TCMA.

    And I agree with you that there is some stupidity on this forum lately. Why can't two people fight a challenge match without a long, drawn out, useless thread of people talking about it. Where do people get the time?

    I train to better myself. Not to be better than the other guy.

    I could care less about MMA. It's boring to watch, it has no entertainment value whatsoever (unless youre also into gay porno), and I don't care to roll around hugging another guy.

    Personally, I'm in it for my own health and fitness. Kind of like going to the gym-I'm not trying to bench press more than someone else, just trying to make myself stronger....we'll you get it.
    Last edited by Anthony; 10-05-2007 at 09:06 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I was just kidding so don't get insulted. Just having fun.

    Anyway, just want to say that I don't really share your view on "Kung-fu" the series. The original series anyway. I don't think it's TV morals at all. I think that the life wisdom espoused by Master Po was quite good (I mean well written and meaningfull). But, I agree that the show doesn't represent what TCMA is factually. I think it's the fantasy of what people (including myself) want TCMA to be about. Morality, self-discipline, hard work, etc.

    At the same time, we owe the show some gratitude. At that time it got many people curious and interested in TCMA.

    And I agree with you that there is some stupidity on this forum lately. Why can't two people fight a challenge match without a long, drawn out, useless thread of people talking about it. Where do people get the time?

    I train to better myself. Not to be better than the other guy.

    I could care less about MMA. It's boring to watch, it has no entertainment value whatsoever (unless youre also into gay porno), and I don't care to roll around hugging another guy.

    Personally, I'm in it for my own health and fitness. Kind of like going to the gym-I'm not trying to bench press more than someone else, just trying to make myself stronger....we'll you get it.
    You are an idiot.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I was just kidding so don't get insulted. Just having fun.
    No biggie. Just wanted it to make clear why I was posting this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    Anyway, just want to say that I don't really share your view on "Kung-fu" the series. The original series anyway. I don't think it's TV morals at all. I think that the life wisdom espoused by Master Po was quite good (I mean well written and meaningfull). But, I agree that the show doesn't represent what TCMA is factually. I think it's the fantasy of what people (including myself) want TCMA to be about. Morality, self-discipline, hard work, etc.
    Personally, I haven’t even seen much of the TV show to be honest. I have seen some of it a long time back. But to be honest, I never paid much mind to the show. I used Carradine because he has come to symbolize the mentality I mentioned. Also, people who embody the traits I described often happen to be fond of that show. Not to mention, from what I’ve seen of David Carradine in recent years, he looks pretty goofy to me. “Yellow book.coooooooooom……” It’s about as deep as some of the “wisdom” MA LARPers come out with. So I used him. lol
    I do believe in positive effects of training, but it’s not anything like the Carradine mentality (to call it something). If you have good Gung Fu, that in of itself says you have self-discipline and worked hard. So you have that covered. As for morality, there is Mo Duk/Wu De. TCMA types often worked in illegal or semi-legal professions within China. They fought in brawls, challenges, duels, clan wars, etc. All of this would disqualify TCMA from fitting within the LARPer idea of morality. However, you have examples of TCMA masters standing up for people when no one else would. You have examples of TCMA masters giving free medical care to people that couldn’t afford it. So there definitely is a martial virtue, it’s just not what LARPers or soccer moms think it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    At the same time, we owe the show some gratitude. At that time it got many people curious and interested in TCMA.
    True, but there is that issue of making people interested for all the wrong reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    And I agree with you that there is some stupidity on this forum lately. Why can't two people fight a challenge match without a long, drawn out, useless thread of people talking about it. Where do people get the time?
    Heh, that’s part of the Mo Duk I’m referring to (or lack thereof). Say what you will about our TCMA ancestors, but think about how they handled challenges vs. what we are seeing right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I train to better myself. Not to be better than the other guy.

    I could care less about MMA. It's boring to watch, it has no entertainment value whatsoever (unless youre also into gay porno), and I don't care to roll around hugging another guy.

    Personally, I'm in it for my own health and fitness. Kind of like going to the gym-I'm not trying to bench press more than someone else, just trying to make myself stronger....we'll you get it.
    That reason is fine by me. Mine is that I simply enjoy it. The health and self-defense benefits are definite pluses as well.
    Last edited by The Xia; 10-05-2007 at 11:19 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    My point is for the TCMA people on this board. If what you do is worthwhile, why do you care what MMA people on the internet have to say? The fact is that there are good TCMA schools out there. To me, the worth of TCMA is self-evident. I don’t really care what MMA people think about it. I really don’t like these TCMA vs. MMA threads, but it appears that all this internet talk has gotten to people. If I can get at least a few posters to do what I decided to do awhile ago, this thread will have been a success. What is that you may ask? Largely ignore the MMA propaganda, and go back to talking mostly about TCMA. After all, this IS a Kung Fu forum!
    I agree with you on some points, not on others.

    #1-MMA striking does not look like MT striking. This is ultimately incorrect. One of the things I admire about MMA fighting is the way they practice "all-defense" When they strike, we sometimes think it's sloppy, or poorly structured. This is because the movements have to be less exaggerated than even MT allows. Why? It is when you're striking that you're most vulnerable to takedowns. One of the weaknesses of MMA, however, is their commitment to absorbing every kick and punch thrown at them. But it's also their strength, in some cases, because it allows for more takedowns when they land their traps (snaring the leg), grabs, trips, and takedowns.

    #2-dumb jocks and MMA. Okay, this is kind of true. I'm a smart jock. Always athletic, played sports, not afraid of contact. I guess the mental aspect of kung-fu appeals to me. I know, for a fact, that I would get bored of MMA pretty quick. I love variation, testing my memory, applying my material, thinking about my material and getting involved in it. But I'm not compelled to fight in a tournament (although one-or-two would be fun, and I'd to try a sparring match in a tournament, so long as it wasn't point-sparring), or train like a professional fighter. Kung-fu can be trained that way. It's called San Shou. From what I see, LKFMDC trains that way.

    But I'm not really interested in that. I want to spar, I enjoy the flow of forms (yeah, so maybe it's like dancing a little, but I don't give a ****), I love practicing weapons techniques above all [one of my main draws to CMA] (b/c **** me if I won't pick something up in a fight and start bashing with it). It has health benefits and detractors (all fighting has risk factors, like broken ring fingers getting caught in sparring partner's shirt ), LOL.

    #3-MMA can teach you a couple of things, besides how to goad a TCMA guy into an internet challenge match. I wasn't impressed with that one, in its setup, or in its unravelling. Then again, catching a knee to the top/back of the head is never fun. BTW, how was that legal? Were you guys using the rule where if one of his hands was off the mat, you could strike him with knees? Have to watch the vid again sometime, b/c I didn't examine how that knee landed, although I'm not really interested in doing so.

    #4-There are just as many misconceptions about MMA in the TCMA world, as vice versa. Sometimes you just have to cipher through the BS and take that middle ground, where you say--okay, I train this way, you train that way. We train for different things, for different reasons.

    #5-Not all MMA guys are BA's. I encourage you, XIA, to visit an MMA school. Just visit one. I have. You'll see some fantastic fighters, and you'll find some overweight, slow, very poor fighters. You'll find college students that are good, and more that suck. You'll find UFC wanabees who suck ass, and one's that might go on to UFC tournaments. There's always a couple of guys in the MMA school that have an aura around them, b/c they're **** good. There's usually a couple of guys in a kung fu school who are **** good. It's the same cross-section of students you'll find in a CMA school. But you'll see that the good one's train smarter in MMA. Just like good TCMA students train smarter than the bad ones. But I'd generally put my money on a good MMA guy over a good CMA guy. The former does combat drills the entire time, whereas that is only one aspect of kung fu. This is just clear-cut logic. Kung Fu will always be about more than just sparring. But put a spear in a MMA guy's hand, and put a short stick in yours or mine, and I'll bet the short stick comes out on top. Or put a kwan dao in his, and a broadsword in yours or mine, and you'll see a gutted and flayed MMA guy, LOL.

    But this is, and you know it, an outdated concept. You can't go around flaying people anymore, and you wouldn't, because you won't have your broadsword on you when you get into conflict. An MMA guy will be better prepared for "realistic" self-defense scenarios. But even then, it's still a matter of Fate/Fortune, because no fight, under any circumstances, is a sure-thing. Look at Couture vs. Sylvia--Couture is the better fighter, by far IMO, but he slips when advancing, and gets KFO'd. Sometimes it's just luck.

    #6-Training in kung fu is always going to have its ups and downs. But if you want to learn something that has a mental aspect, a health aspect, a physical aspect, perhaps even a somewhat spiritual aspect (only somewhat b/c I don't credit any spirits outside of FSMism), there's only a couple of choices.

    #7-As to why kung fu guys are more sensitive to the flack, get jaded, and leave for something else--kung fu has always had dropouts for those whose hearts can't contend with its training. They're generally vocal. And they find something that suits them. It will always be individual. Even if they don't see that, you should.

    I mean, ****, man, I preferred SD over Longfist, Wing Chun, and Tiger-Crane, LOL. It's always the individual.
    No, no, no. You're not thinking. You're just being logical---Niels Bohr

    Oh yeah!??!! Well, my dad could beat up your dad!--Lineage-Haters

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  10. #10
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    I voted for Carradine 'cause he was the only thing I liked about the Kill Bill movies. He pulls off the cheesy dialog better than anyone...wonder why?
    "My cookies are clean." some anonymous troll

  11. #11
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    I'm not entirely certain what the point of the post was. I think it's a disection of what Xia feels to be a lack of faith by TCMA practicioners lately in their arts, and a perceived amount of ego being injected into the whole deal.

    I wouldn't really be certain how to respond to it, under normal circumstances, and under these less so; but here's my take:

    The arguments, such as they are, are almost invariably over training methods. When people say such enlightening things as "Kung Fu doesn't work," it's a kind of short hand for "The training methods have become poor, and that has allowed all kinds of things to happen to its effectiveness." There's some truth to this, but it's not articulated clearly.

    Let me caveat this all by saying for those who don't know me that I'm not a TCMAist. However, the arguments that people have here about what is "real" TCMA speaks volumes. People can't even agree upon the criteria they use to evaluate what is a "real" TCMA. People get into arguments constantly about that type of thing. They argue about who has the "real," art. They argue about what "really," is TCMA. They argue about whether or not you can add something or take away or study different styles etc and if that means you aren't a "real" TCMA practitioner.

    TCMA does not have its house in order, collectively.

    By contrast, MMAists have collectively agreed on the criterion - demonstrated effectiveness and contribution to sportive combat. Nobody argues about what is "real" or not because as long as it meets the criterion, it's in. Combat drills are in; padded, but full on, sparring is in, heavy conditioning is in, etc. People tend to argue more about "what so and so should have done IN THAT FIGHT," when in MMA discussions, not about the grand scheme of "how they should be training, etc."

    Now, we can argue all day and night about whether or not this makes a complete training program or about the pros and cons of such an approach; but there is something else here. Not even the most hard core TCMAist, unless they have no shred of higher brain function, can deny this: the training approach of MMAists consistently generates people with useable, dangerous skillsets for unarmed combat.

    As a collective, this fact throws TCMA on the defensive for a simple reason: TCMAists are very aware, first, that effectiveness, even if not the only criterion, is certainly one important one of several, and that secondly, that their own house, collectively, is not in order. People practicing "TCMA," (again we run into the "real" or not argument here) are not consistently effective on the whole. And that's a real problem, "real" TCMA or not, because judging quality is not a straightforward proposition. This makes it very easy for fakes, charlatans, and people who just suck to claim an awful lot of crap and never have to back anything at all up.

    To clarify, this does not mean that there aren't crappy MMA schools out there, or schools that claim to be "MMA," but really have bad programs, which could fall under the category of not "real" MMA. The difference is that because our community has agreed upon quality standards, because we have collectively agreed upon the criterion/criteria, we will always know where to go to receive quality instruction. Can you say the same in TCMA? I don't think you can, generally speaking, because of the quality evaluation problem.

    And I think that's the rub. That's what keeps TCMA on the defensive, on the whole, in this general argument... you can't deny that a great deal of TCMA claimants can't deliver the real deal, and even talk about it amongst yourselves all the time...but then, you can't even identify what is "real," so you can't provide examples when asked by MMA types.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

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    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  12. #12
    Hi The Xia,

    I do agree with some of the stuff you have presented but, why dump it on David Carradine? He is just an actor who, early on, really tried to distance himself from the martial arts community. Now he needs it. It is keeping him in this world. The man suffers from alcoholism (correct me if I am wrong) and appears to be traveling a road where brightness seldom shines. His Sifu, Kam Yuen, has been trying to offer some illumination by giving him things to do, to focus his mind on. Does the aforementioned make him a symbol for all that is wrong with TCMA? HELL NO. He is just a human being. He is only a symbol to those who need a symbol in their lives and he has/had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with that.

    By the way, the best episode of Kung Fu was the pilot episode. It was all downhill from there.

    mickey

  13. #13

    Talking

    I like "Kung Fu" tv series. I dun like "kill bill".

    there are several things here.

    A. culture/oppinion;

    1. tv "culture", movie "culture" or media.

    2 main stream or society "culture".

    3. politics/government culture.

    4. sub groups/religions culture.

    5. the new internet "not real" forum culture.

    --

    B. personal beliefs/morals.

    the 60's and 70's are periods of soul searching both in china and america.

    In china, it was the cultural revolution, the red book and red guards, mao is the sun and party and the "truth".,

    In US, deeply involved in Vietnam conflict, women right liberation, Dr, King's civil rights movement, rock and roll, drugs, hippie, peace and no war movements--

    and of course, Elvis and david carridine.

    --

  14. #14
    JMA has tons of mcdojos and LARPers and the situation with KMA looks the worst. Believe it or not, there was once a time when Tae Kwan Do meant hard training! So TCMA is not alone.
    LOL @ saying TKD has no hard training. Go into a TKD school that does tourney training and spar with some of the guys and you will quickly find that they can go pretty hard and can probably knock you on your a$$.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8m-CJdUAgQ


    This, and the sloppiness of many MMA players (come on, UFC striking does not look like Muay Thai from Thailand to me) turn me off to it.
    The closer you get to real fighting, the "sloppier" the techniques will look. All the pro boxers who have gotten into altercations with each other outside of the ring are testament to this.

  15. #15
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    I do prefer David Carridine to cookie-cutter chop sockey flicks. One of the cool things in Kung-Fu (yeah, I like that series) and more innovative features of it were the qualities of Chan it presented. The fighting was horrible--all wavy, fluttering hands, and tacky judo rolls and throws. There was, ironically, almost no kung-fu in Kung-Fu.

    As for the esoteric, shallow presentation of Chinese philosophies--which seems to be your main gripe, or the attachment of eastern mysticism to an Irish dude who had no Chinese blood in him:

    Okay, sure. I think the series would have been a kajillion times better had they casted Bruce Lee. But he was, perhaps, too ****y and ego-driven to have made it a "deeper" show. It would have turned into, inevitably, Han's palace for three seasons. There's that moment in "Return of the Dragon" where he and the chick are looking at the magnificent gardens and the ruins of the coliseum, and she asks doesn't he think they're beautiful? He says: "No. They're a waste of space. We have slums like these. I'd build on it! Make money!"

    Can you imagine that in Kung Fu?

    Master Po's lessons with the grasshopper. Bruce says: "Grasshoppers are for blind old pussies. Look at my mantis. Bet you five dollars it's stronger!" Then he throws the mantis at the grasshopper and it kills it. He looks at Master Po: "Now give me some money, *****!"

    And then he kills Master Po, is exiled to America, but returns to get his revenge and builds a railroad straight through the demolition of the Shaolin Temple, getting rich in teh process.

    Kung Fu was great because it showed more than just Kung Fu. It showed how a guy pledged to peace survived in a hostile world. It was kind of like a parable.

    It was outdated television, but certainly original.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 10-06-2007 at 08:42 AM.
    No, no, no. You're not thinking. You're just being logical---Niels Bohr

    Oh yeah!??!! Well, my dad could beat up your dad!--Lineage-Haters

    For all nonsense there is an equal and opposite nonsense---Wook

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