Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 90

Thread: Yiu Choi Lineage

  1. #61
    The book you linked to is definitely the best of its kind, and the scholarship is impeccable.

    However, as I said, it is limited by its sources - or lack of them.

    And some of the descriptions of some social events and status is not actual like it really was at the time. The problem is that the author(s?) have to rely on books they can read instead of interviewing people who actually lived through certain times.

    Another problem I see with it is that people - because it was written by a genuine Professor and in accordance with academic standards to form and presentation - think it more authoritative than it really is.

    But, nonetheless in spite of its limitations a great book.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Great Lakes State, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,635
    I have to agree with your assessment wholeheartedly 5mman, there is undoubtedly no substitute for having the opportunity to explore the facts at hand while being in the thick of it, in your case living on the Mainland with access to the real histories and families of these martial art styles. I greatly appreciate your willingness to expand the playing field of credibility in putting forth information that is not at all common knowledge for people who do not live there or read/speak the languages. Personally, I have no skin in the game when it comes to lineage pride or thereabouts so I am very open to hearing stories and especially logical explanations and observations that can help put the puzzle together about the people who actually developed this unique fighting system. Something I can sink my teeth into, like deem sum.

  3. #63
    About this Red Boat and King Fa Wui Goon...

    It figures a lot in Wing Chun histories, however there are a lot of fictitional story elements which percolate through them.

    One is this burning down of the Cantonese Opera Guild Hall at Dai Gei Mei.

    The truth - according to actual historical records - is that this place was not burnt down in response to the "Red Turban Uprising 1854/55" by the Qing government.

    The culture of these opera guild halls (there were more than one) is quite interesting and studying this reveals what parts of the stories of old are reasonable and others which are not.

    It is also very interesting to study what kind of Gung Fu was actually practiced by opera people - we interviewed some very old opera performers of the "Luen Yu Tong" (the martial role hall) of the Baat Wo Guild in Guangzhou. These guys started training to be opera performers in the 1930s and their fathers had been opera performers before them. Talking to such people, you can learn a lot about the opera culture, how they lived, how they trained, etc.

    If you go to the Luen Yu Tong today, you can see the "Red Boat Dummy" on display and they still play a certain dummy form. There used to be a similar dummy on display in the Fatsaan Opera Museum, but nowadays there is just a normal type. You can still see pictures of an old opera master performing the dummy form there, though and other pictures of their training.

    According to all this information, the Kung Fu practiced by the Hei Ban (opera troupes) was southern Siu Lam Gung Fu aka Lo Hung Kuen/Siu Hung Kuen/Fa Hung Kuen. Animal styles are part of this.

    So it is not strange to think that Wing Chun as we know it today is actually derived from animal styles...



    The Lo Kwai style is very interesting because it - according to the discriptions given of it in the discussions sounds like old Hung Kuen and you can actually find these things in various branches of Wing Chun, in some more, in some less.

    Which of course makes perfect sense given what I said above.

  4. #64
    I also have no skin in the game as you put it.



    I do not care about who has the "real" history or such - these things are just interesting in case one is curious about how things developed.

    I happen to be, but that is just a side thing.

    The important thing - to me - is that my Sifu(s) have certain skills I would like to learn, that they can teach it to me, that they WANT to teach it to me AND - most importantly - that they are persons that I jive with on a personal level.

    Original or not, doesn't matter.


  5. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Great Lakes State, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,635
    The 4th Form / Snake Boxing , same as the San Sik form in the Yiu Choi lineage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CngHS5lGFIo

    RIVERBOAT WING CHUN GUAN : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWmF8rU6bs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8clK...P0dcXQ&index=2
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 12-08-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  6. #66
    Palmstriker,

    another great example of how one can get some odd ideas or draw some rather wrong conclusions, if one only watches some videos whithout knowing the actual background.

    I have met both of the Sifus in the videos with them, the first one is Lam Sifu in Gwongjaau, the other one is Gu Siu Nou Sifu of Dong Bin Fong, Gulo Seui Heung, Hoksaan.

    Lam Sifu is an expert in multiple martialarts, his main style being Hap Ga Kuen. The Wing Chun he learnt is from a gentleman who used to be a member of the Cantonese Opera. He learnt 8 "Wing Chun" forms, Sup Saam Jong Sau, Siu Lin Tau, Pong Kiu, Sae Hok Kuen, Ng Mui Sup Baat Jhang, etc. This is very interesting too, because it confirms certain things about Wing Chun and its orgin with, if one knows about the local history and culture, are much more plausible than what is usually believed and promoted in official histories.

    What he shows in this video is not "Snake style" but some snippets of the various forms and then explaining some basics of his Wing Chun (he calls it Opera style Wing Chun, not "Hard Gate" or "Hard Style" Wing Chun as what this series of videos was sold under. The publisher of the videos invented that name).

    None of his forms are the same as what you called the Yiu Choi lineage "San Sik" form. I already explained what this particular form is and where it came from, but to be clear I shall repeat it here: The form you mention is called "Che Chin Kuen" or "Chong Kuen" (later in HK some people called it the 108 Che Chin Kuen) - it is NOT from Yiu Choi, but was created by a student of Ng Chun So to teach Fok Chiu Sifu, who later became a student of Yiu Choi, to fire his interest for Wing Chun and keep practicing. Fok Chiu had no patience for the usual forms, he needed something with more action to keep him interested. He had a very close relationship with Yiu Choi and later his sons and grandsons, so the grandsons adopted this form (as well as other stuff). The other students of Yiu Choi do not have this, nor another fourth form. So it is not some special, lost form.


    Gu Sifu is a practitioner of his family's "Gu Ga Wing Chun", descending from Leung Jan (his ancestor was Leung Jan's neighbour in Leung Jan's hometown) - he has unfortunately become somewhat of a local tourist attraction and a lot of the things you see him show on TV shows and to groups of tourists visiting the "Leung Jan Gong Yuan" is just for that - it is not his real Gung Fu. I had the fortune of meeting him and visiting him at his home on a no. of occasions before he became really public. He has really excellent old style Gung Fu, meaning some really nasty stuff.

    It is not "Riverboat Wing Chun" or such, nor was it intended to be used on a boat on a river - this segment was just made to feed the popular legend. In fact, Leung Jan taught some locals there because they were bullied by robbers on land on the way to the town to sell their stuff, enabling them to defend themselves and their goods.

    But of course, only watching this kind of videos, not knowing the history of things, one might easily see certain stories or myths confirmed - and even worse connect dots and come up with "the REAL" origin of Wing Chun...

  7. #67
    As far as the form demonstrated by Lam Sifu's student in the video, it is the fourth set, but in fact it is his version of the Biu Zi form (he uses another name for it) and it is the fourth set because he has a set being taught prior to the SLT.

    If one doesn't know this, it is easy to assume that this is some missing fourth set and make the connection to the Che Ching Kuen practiced by certain members of the Yiu Si Wing Chun where it is also a 4th set.

    ...

    Seems plausible if one doesn't really have the proper background information, but unfortunately it is also very, very wrong.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Great Lakes State, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,635
    Thanks once again for the clarification and insight into these traditionally preserved styles of WingChun, 5mman. The information you put forth is not to be obtained so easily by casual research or asking a few questions here and there. Your knowledge on these matters is quite embedded, to say the least. Thanks for clearing up the question of "snake San Sik" in the Yiu Choi lineage. Personally, I am not looking for a "4th form" in any of the Wing Chun historical lineages. That said, I would like to say that I am most inspired by seeing the demonstrations (videos) by Lam Sifu and Gu Sifu, seeing these two Masters perform their practiced arts of Wing Chun technique and form is exactly what I consider this fighting art to be all about. As far as the "creation story" goes, I think this will just remain part of the past, intriguing as it is.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    175
    the "riverboat" stuff looks a bit like praying mantis... well to me anyway.

    5mman.. you certainly know your stuff, thanks

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    Funny to see that another forum is looking at the same material (Lo Kwai)
    I had been following that for a bit, while thinking about what I read of fut sau WC, funnier to me that the 4th form pops up lol

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Great Lakes State, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,635
    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    the "riverboat" stuff looks a bit like praying mantis... well to me anyway.

    5mman.. you certainly know your stuff, thanks
    You are correct about the two Masters and their martial art form, T.D.O. The video opens with the Master in the blue robe demonstrating Wing Chun Dummy, after that, the other style shown throughout the vid is not WingChun we may be familiar with but very much Southern style. * Although... 5mman posted above that this is a family style of WingChun. QUOTE: Gu Sifu is a practitioner of his family's "Gu Ga Wing Chun", descending from Leung Jan (his ancestor was Leung Jan's neighbour in Leung Jan's hometown) - he has unfortunately become somewhat of a local tourist attraction and a lot of the things you see him show on TV shows and to groups of tourists visiting the "Leung Jan Gong Yuan" is just for that - it is not his real Gung Fu. I had the fortune of meeting him and visiting him at his home on a no. of occasions before he became really public. He has really excellent old style Gung Fu, meaning some really nasty stuff.
    OTE ,
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 12-30-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    You are correct about the two Masters and their martial art form, T.D.O. The video opens with the Master in the blue robe demonstrating Wing Chun Dummy, after that, the other style shown throughout the vid is not WingChun we may be familiar with but very much Southern style. * Although... 5mman posted above that this is a family style of WingChun. QUOTE: Gu Sifu is a practitioner of his family's "Gu Ga Wing Chun", descending from Leung Jan (his ancestor was Leung Jan's neighbour in Leung Jan's hometown) - he has unfortunately become somewhat of a local tourist attraction and a lot of the things you see him show on TV shows and to groups of tourists visiting the "Leung Jan Gong Yuan" is just for that - it is not his real Gung Fu. I had the fortune of meeting him and visiting him at his home on a no. of occasions before he became really public. He has really excellent old style Gung Fu, meaning some really nasty stuff.
    OTE ,
    interesting so you've done a bit of travelling in you time.

    I keep meaning to ask what you mean when you say that ip Man's wing chun is "snake crane wing chun" ?

    I have a feeling you mean the Hong Kong style by that name??

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Great Lakes State, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,635
    No, not well traveled at all. All Wing Chun lineages are a combination of the southern Crane and Southern Snake styles. Yip Man's Wing Chun after he left the Mainland became the most streamlined, non-stylized version of the art. More Southern boxing and less animal-style in nature, like other schools, both North and South. I doubt if many of Ip Man's students identified with animal nature while learning the martial art or that it would be much of a consideration today. If you want to see what I am referring to , just take a look at the Snake and Crane styles individually as they are taught today. Very stylized (animal nature) and not so much Westernized boxing in appearance. That's all I'm saying.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PCRm10thMs
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 02-21-2021 at 09:13 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    No, not well traveled at all. All Wing Chun lineages are a combination of the southern Crane and Southern Snake styles. Yip Man's Wing Chun after he left the Mainland became the most streamlined, non-stylized version of the art. More Southern boxing and less animal-style in nature, like other schools, both North and South. I doubt if many of Ip Man's students identified with animal nature while learning the martial art or that it would be much of a consideration today. If you want to see what I am referring to , just take a look at the Snake and Crane styles individually as they are taught today. Very stylized (animal nature) and not so much Westernized boxing in appearance. That's all I'm saying.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PCRm10thMs

    Interesting video. I wonder what she meant by "only 8 movements"?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Interesting video. I wonder what she meant by "only 8 movements"?
    Translated into American English that could be 8 directions. She's probably depending a lot on Baidu Translate that has a Hong Kong flavour AKA flavor...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •