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Thread: Yiu Choi Lineage

  1. #31
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    Sorry. Don't know anything about a 4th form in the WingChun fist non-weapon routine. It's common knowledge that Master Ip Man taught a more diverse regimen to his first students in Foshan (Mainland) before teaching in Hong Kong. (under duress). From what I can see, he did streamline his Hong Kong style to NOT include techniques from other Southern styles that had been incorporated early on (Red Boat Opera performers of various style affiliations). * Reading the notes from the last vid you posted, I see from the comments section that Master Ip Man's son, Ip Ching created the form as a compilation (essence) of the WingChun non-weapon forms (3).
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 10-26-2020 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #32
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    I noticed the comments section after posting, apparently it's a competition form.. I've never heard of it or seen it before... the 4th form I refer to is in 2 lineages from leung Jan... I know it's called the "bagua" form because you move in 8 directions, I think its budda hand wing Chun that calls it that, the other one is lo kwai wing chun which doesn't have a name for it... it has stepping and hands from all the forms supposedly... funnily ip ching tried to add back in something that was removed

  3. #33
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    Doctor Leung Jan was Master Ip Man's teacher/Sifu's Master in Foshan. I read online material from interviews with Ip Man's original students in Foshan that before he fled to Hong Kong he taught them the "Bagua stuff" back then. Different times. .... dangerous times to live in China if you ended up on the "wrong side" of turbulent politics. * Also, the footwork in the video is not Bagua style circle walking but still WingChun style footwork, even the sliding. Personally, I have always said that I consider the general movement in the WingChun forms to be very awkward looking. That was my first impression in observing the style and can say the same of Southern White Crane form practice. (And yet, these are the only two Kung fu styles I cherry-pick from that I instinctively use if confronted/need to defend myself or others (devastating full body blocks and breaking). I prefer more fluid motion but would never claim to practice something other than Southern Crane/WingChun because of adopting content technique.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 10-27-2020 at 01:48 PM.

  4. #34
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    i know cha wah shun, was a student of leung Jan, 2 other lines that come from him still have the 4th form, called the "bagua" form ( no relation to bagua zhang ) in one of them, because you move in 8 directions, to me, in my head anyway, that would be from the center to the trigrams, kinda like the end of cws's slt. which makes me think it was the 4th form added on. obviously just a guess..




    ip chings, being of his own making... isn't anything to do with it at all... just to save confusion lol

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    From what I can see, he did streamline his Hong Kong style to NOT include techniques from other Southern styles that had been incorporated early on (Red Boat Opera performers of various style affiliations). .
    do you know which techniques he took out?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    Doctor Leung Jan was Master Ip Man's teacher/Sifu's Master in Foshan. I read online material from interviews with Ip Man's original students in Foshan that before he fled to Hong Kong he taught them the "Bagua stuff" back then.
    do you mean "bagua stuff" as in bagua zhang?

  7. #37
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    Yes. At least "circle walking" from the Northern Bagua Zhang style was mentioned in one of the interviews.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    Yes. At least "circle walking" from the Northern Bagua Zhang style was mentioned in one of the interviews.
    thanks.. maybe my thoughts on the deconstructed circle walking has some merit then lol

  9. #39
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    I think it must be the same as the origins of circle walking are from Taoist monks, what I read mentioned "Wu Dang" . There were other styles of Chinese MA that were practiced by WingChun lineages... such as Hung Gar and the use of the "War Palm" generated from the Shaolin Ma bu, "horse stance". Lot's of weapons were also used but gradually trimmed down to just the butterfly knives and long pole. The YKS/Yuen brothers lineage was founded on the fighting expertise of two Red Boat Opera performers that became Imperial Marshalls, one of them was also a Northern style TaijiGuan practitioner, some of which definitely shows up in some of the teachings.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 10-28-2020 at 08:36 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    I think it must be the same as the origins of circle walking are from Taoist monks
    one book I read said that when they went to the sect where dong reportedly learned the circle walking and asked them about it, they said it was dong who taught them it.. so it seems to be a chicken and egg scenario

  11. #41
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    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwvvVVBCGRE

    seems I'm way off.. 1st section of Buda hands 4th form

    8 sections in total

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwvvVVBCGRE

    seems I'm way off.. 1st section of Buda hands 4th form

    8 sections in total
    2nd section https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LwQmpSi3y14

  13. #43
    It is a big misunderstanding that Yip Man taught some "Baat Gwa stepping form" or such to his students in Fatsaan or some secret footwork which has been now lost.

    Baat Gwa refer to the 8 Triagrams and it is common for Chinese Gung Fu Sifus to use this to refer to 8 directions, i.e. moving in all directions.

    There is a stepping exercise called "Baat Gwa Bo", consisting of the three types of steps found in the system. It is not a "form" in the sense of of the "Saam Tou Kuen" - SLT, CK and BZ.

    There was never any "4th form" in Wing Chun, only the three practiced still today.

    There is no "Fat Sao Wing Chun" in China, nor does there ever seem to have been such a thing. Thus the fourth form in that system is not an "original" Wing Chun form. What you can see in those video clips is just standard footwork patters, nothing secret, nothing lost.

    What adds to the confusion is that there does indeed exist a "4th form" practised by some Yiu Choi-lineage people. However, this form is not an original form of the Wing Chun style. It was created as a combination form by a student of Ng Chun So to teach Fok Chiu and maintain his interest in learning Wing Chun - he had no patience to learn the traditional way. Fok Chiu later became a student of Yiu Choi and eventually taught this "4th form" called "Che Jing Kuen" to Yiu Choi's grandsons.

    Interestingly, there are many versions of this form as Fok Chiu (and maybe his students) have developed different choreographies over the years.

    What people believe is Chan Wah Shun's "SLT" with some extra part which some people here seem to think is some sort of lost form is anything but that. The things people attribut to Chan Wah Shun today, i.e. what is known here in China as "Siulam Wing Chun" or "Seundak Wing Chun" (using the "eternal" Wing character) is Chan Yu Min's (and his descendant's) curriculum. In Suendak they sometimes call the first part "Siu Lin Kuen" and the second "Sei Min Da" - it is actually two parts put together, the first part being Wing Chun, the second is from the "village style" Hung Kuen that Chan Yu Min taught in his schools in Fatsaan, Siuheng and later in Seundak.
    The Yuen Kei Saan lineage was not founded by two opera-members who became "imperial marshals". Neither Fok Bo Chuen nor Fung Siu Ching were such. Fung Siu Ching was a Bo-Tao, i.e. a deputized commoner to help maintain law and order, quite different from how he is portrayed in the stories floating around on the internet, and Fok Bo Chuen was a secret society member. Neither of these were Opera performers, supposedly Fung Siu Ching trained to be one (knowing how opera performers learned their craft, back in those days, it is safe to assume that this story is very, very, very unlikely) but never made the cut and instead became a martial artist. He was never a Taijiquan master or such - this style came to Guangdong ca. 1920 and depending on which story about Fung Siu Ching you want to believe, he was either long dead by then or in SEA. If you want to believe the story that he was the "bodyguard" or "bounty hunter" for Law Bin Jeung (the Viceroy of Szechuan), the timeline given in what can best be called "the official story of Yuen Kei Saan Wing Chun" makes it impossible - Law passed away in 1869, at which time Fung Siu Ching would have been less than 10 years old... An imperial marshall and bounty hunter at 10 years of age? Not very likely, is it? There is no Taijiquan or such in Yuen Kei Saan at all, it is absolutely not in any way influenced by this style.

  14. #44
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  15. #45
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    Interesting video showing explosive energy in old school Taiji form :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OePXWt7rA
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 12-05-2020 at 03:45 PM.

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