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Thread: The Pole

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    Hi Kenton

    I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.

    James
    No stress...

    I remember him teaching it at one of the summer seminars. I have a VHS tape of the one seminar with you performing the dummy. Just no way at this time to convert it.

    Best,
    Kenton Sefcik
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."
    I think you may have got the Monkey Staff confused here! A Monkey Staff, as far as I'm aware, utilizes the 'character' of the Monkey and usually is performed with the famous 'Staff' (solid metal, possibly with brass ends). It also has a very powerful Half-Pole technique, concentrating on turning and swirling etc. With this in mind, the Sum Nung example does not have the Monkey Character.

    The 'exercise' I see is another way of separating the Half-Pole from the Six Points, of which I am also familiar with as this is what the Lee Shing Family tend to practice. And thats what I believe this clip to be. Speaking from experience, when we demonstrated in public there were always slight changes that were made depending on the environment. As an example I had to alter our sixth point due to the cieling being very low, I had to step backwards instead of forwards as the audience was too close etc. These things happen sometimes, and unfortunately when 'forms' like this are seen they are scrutinised and often disregarded due to lack of information or understanding.

    Overall, its a very neat 'classic' set with Half-pole (quarterstaff) techniques being practised equally on both sides with the various steppping work associated with this part of the Six Point Half Pole. Honestly, if you have never practised this set/idea you may never find the clip familiar. It has definately not been 'added' or 'stolen'! All the information about this clip is within the Six Point & Half Pole Form I am familiar with.

    Hence, the title of this thread...

    ps. I would still like to see the 'other half' of the Pole described by Couch, are there any clips of Wong Shun Leungs form anywhere on the net?

  3. #33
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    Six and Half Point Pole Techniques

    LUK DIM BUN KWAN - Six and Half POINT Pole Techniques

    This name come from the marks left by the pole when it strikes a paper surface for example.

    Each of the 6 techniques, when strike a paper target, leave a round or oval hole.

    The "half technique" leaves a crescent or half-moon shaped hole.

  4. #34

    it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

    Last edited by k gledhill; 10-29-2007 at 05:19 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post

    it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

    LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.

    Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)

    Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_easy View Post
    Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"
    Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...

    When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!

    I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.

    I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_easy View Post
    LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.

    Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)

    Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"

    lmao ! so I have one shot ..or else, and im not allowed to deflect and strike more than once..hmmmm

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    lmao ! so I have one shot ..or else, and im not allowed to deflect and strike more than once..hmmmm
    Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!

    Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.

    Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!

    Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...

    When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!

    I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.

    I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...
    explain your thinking more.... what is your idea for the '1/2 pole '?

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!

    Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.

    Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!

    Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...

    why else would he be pointing a loaded pole at me ? [ you are not missing the idea , but not mentioning the fact that this is why we simply strike to kill ya in one move .... we dont know what the other guy can do , how good he is...how many 'notches' does he have on his pole ??? so treat them all with the same 'extreme prejudice' and respect , never underestimate your opponent , a dying man always has one last action....]

    old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
    the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...
    Last edited by k gledhill; 11-05-2007 at 06:00 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
    the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...
    So, K, what's your interpretation of the Cantonese name for our Pole Set? Is it Six Point(s) & Half Pole or Six and a Half Point Pole??

    Fortunately for me, like yourself I believe, I learnt my Pole from a 'hands-on' perspective and restrained from believeing that seventies movies contained 'original training' like Simple_easys poking holes in rice paper. Nice for accuracy, but as far as distinguishing my points from my half? Maybe in the context of angular and square hitting you would get these resuts, but still doesn't explain why our form carries such a name... and whether we have all just got its meaning 'Lost in Translation'!

  12. #42

    Lone Tiger 108

    Several different explanations have been given for the name of the kwan. Name puzzles are good to play with but more important are the nature of the motions.
    FWIW Austin Goh's staff work is not my cup of tea. I do not think treating the kwan like a quarter staff is a good idea developmentally. Of course in the heat of action- different adjustments are possible.

    joy chaudhuri

  13. #43
    I explained before ....it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

  14. #44
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    LoneTiger108 - I've not been following in detail so my apologies. Are you are saying there are 2 separate pole/staff sets? The half-pole set used like a quarterstaff as seen in sifu Austin Goh's videos, and then the more "normal" 6-1/2 point pole set? Do you have a half-point movement in the latter?

    Surely they are actually different weapons? The 6-1/2 point pole is trained using a long tapered pole, whereas your half-pole looks like it is uniform in cross-section and much shorter.

  15. #45
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    Now its sticks or poles?

    First off CFT, yes I am saying that there are two distictly different Pole forms I have seen in Wing Chun. That which I've seen from the Ip Family, and that I have seen from the Lee Family. Both are 'totally different' in look, but I do believe they are portraying the same concepts. Lee Shing, however, preferred more traditional stick plays to help new students learn prior to the heavier pole being introduced.

    I personally have practiced with both. Stick fighting isn't the same as pole fighting as preferences tend to vary on 'power generation' to start with. I also have to point out that the Sum Nung Set I posted in this thread is not 'mine' or Lee Shings, and I'm sure someone from this family can enlighten us as to 'why' this set was created. On reflection, Sum Nungs Pole Set is also sligtly different from Lees & Ips.

    Before I go into an explanation, I have to ask a question:

    How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

    One palm facing up, the other down (which one depends on your Sifu lol!) How we tend to distingush the 'half set' from the 'point set' is that the half pole tends to use the same hands, ie both palms facing down. It is only within Lee Shings pole that I have seen the practitioner then hold the pole in the middle, utilising both ends for close quarters more so than the points, where we tend to stay at one end of the pole using our longest ranges.

    However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...

    Another 'saying' I've heard numerous times in the Lee Family is this:

    "Without the stick, the father of all weapons, a pole is of no use."

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