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Thread: The Pole

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
    I'm not one to waste time on forums with '' made up nick names '' so I leave with this
    we have all had a case of the dreaded '' Sifu-itus or Linage-itus '' and we get all wrapped up in our comfort zone blanket with a all the warm little fuzzies that come with it .
    we think were special , our Sifu is special and our linage is special , and were so smart for picking the right place to be and train ,,, happens to us all it's part of the allure LOL

    Reality is it's mainly BS and a pseudo pyramid / marketing scam
    Sorry to actually 'care' about my teacher, his reputation and the memory of Lee Shing! I can relate to exactly what you're saying here, except I didn't 'pick' my teacher from a bunch and he didn't 'choose' me from a line up. It was something more than that, as it was with the five of us that went through the harder times.

    One of the reasons we all drifted was because of the pyramid like scams you talk of here, except it wasn't exactly like that for me personally as I never really 'paid' to learn. Maybe most people just have a reaction to a single 'head', but I never really saw any issues in that.

    I have never once said that I still train with him, yet peoples impressions of me are already full of the 'young newbie' stereotype.

    I also only really learnt a small amount, in comparison to my elders who have been involved in Wing Chun since the seventies. They talked like you do too, especially about previous Sifus sometimes, but they understand why it all happened, and especially who Lee Shing 'was'!

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Thanks very much CFT! What a rapid response, do you train with Desmond? What can I expect to see at his school?
    I don't train with Desmond, but I probably would if I still lived in NW London. I've got the information because at one point I was looking into training the WSL method - nothing came of it except finding out about various teachers scattered around the UK.

    Just give him a ring and see where it takes you.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    I throw stones at myself first I am who you are too...we are all very similar. Im just trying to get rid of the bs factor like ernie said , guys are making a living off you ....
    Again, k! If you had read any of my otHer posts about how I learnt, you would have realized that my tuition cost me nothing (financially) as Sifu refused my payments. The 'money' factor only came into play when it became obvious some students just didn't want to learn how to teach properly, so they were expelled, and charged money when they returned when they couldn't find anywhere else to train like we did.

    Lee Shing himself also never 'made a living' from his Martial Art knowledge, and that is something I do know. He was a millionaire Restauranteur! His wife and grand daughter have both personally assured me that this was 'just the way he was'. I'm also not saying that charging money is wrong, it just needs to be well managed and thought out beforehand.

    I feel sorry for people that are drawn into all that 'Martial Arts Career' madness, as I feel it should always be about what you can give back to society, not what you can take away...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Sorry to actually 'care' about my teacher, his reputation and the memory of Lee Shing! I can relate to exactly what you're saying here, except I didn't 'pick' my teacher from a bunch and he didn't 'choose' me from a line up. It was something more than that, as it was with the five of us that went through the harder times.
    I'm sure everyone has there own sob story and persoanl rational [ part of the TMA mind f uck ] what ever floats your boat man


    LoneTiger108-- have never once said that I still train with him, yet peoples impressions of me are already full of the 'young newbie' stereotype.

    Last bit of advice -- it's not the newbie thing it's your an overzealous linage banner waver ,,, no one really cares and most of us have learned to speak on personal experience not trying to stick our [ Gag ! ] linage into every single post .
    might try and ease up on that if you plan to stay on the island
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

    You sound rather pompous Ernie! -- by Yung Chun
    http://wslglvt.com

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
    Last bit of advice -- it's not the newbie thing it's your an overzealous linage banner waver ,,, no one really cares and most of us have learned to speak on personal experience not trying to stick our [ Gag ! ] linage into every single post .
    might try and ease up on that if you plan to stay on the island
    Thanks for the advice.

    Okay, so I started a thread on the Lee Shing Family and tend to write a lot, but 'overzealous linage banner'??? C'mon!! WTF??

    Have you looked at your own 'brand' lately. No disrespect intended here but do you not teach 'Wong Shun Leung Gary Lam Ving Tsun'?? What is that if it's not a banner?? Strapped to your profile and every post you make in the form of a website. Modern marketing is all it is.

    I guess you'll be teaching WSLGL Ernie Ving Tsun, and the 'overzealous banners' carry on and on...

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Thanks for the advice.

    Okay, so I started a thread on the Lee Shing Family and tend to write a lot, but 'overzealous linage banner'??? C'mon!! WTF??

    Have you looked at your own 'brand' lately. No disrespect intended here but do you not teach 'Wong Shun Leung Gary Lam Ving Tsun'?? What is that if it's not a banner?? Strapped to your profile and every post you make in the form of a website. Modern marketing is all it is.

    I guess you'll be teaching WSLGL Ernie Ving Tsun, and the 'overzealous banners' carry on and on...
    LOL you have a point ,, and i have thought about dumping the whole thing many times ,,,, just feels chessy

    but i don't rant about my teacher on every post like it's something special now do I

    as for the website link ,,, it just a link of initials isn't it

    good luck with you journey
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

    You sound rather pompous Ernie! -- by Yung Chun
    http://wslglvt.com

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
    LOL you have a point ,, and i have thought about dumping the whole thing many times ,,,, just feels chessy

    but i don't rant about my teacher on every post like it's something special now do I

    as for the website link ,,, it just a link of initials isn't it

    good luck with you journey
    Agreed...

    So the information itself is what should be judged or evaluated not where it came from...right???
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Agreed...

    So the information itself is what should be judged or evaluated not where it came from...right???

    Yep focus on training methods that satisfy you personal criteria...some want to fight ...some want to pretend to fight .... some just want something to do and get a work out .... whatever makes em happy

    as long as your digg'n what your doing all is well in the universe ,,,, just remember everyone has there own personal universe ,,,,, some are really out of this world
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

    You sound rather pompous Ernie! -- by Yung Chun
    http://wslglvt.com

  9. #69
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    Talking of happy training days...

    I can remember a time when I was 'playing' with a pole in class, aiming at the wooden man and using a wee bit too much imagination. I accidentally hit one of the arms and Sifu comes over and tells me off before removing all the arms and leg and placed them aside. On returning, he has four sticks, thick waxwood about 2 metres, and he slots them into the wooden man saying, 'hit these, that what they're for, not my arms!'

    I continued in total numbness and trained the pole like I'd never even dreamed possible. We never showed this on any of the fifty performances we took part in during our time, but I still practice this way sometimes, just to remind me of those happy days...

    Any other memories about training the Pole would be most welcome, as it is all in learning, sharing and seeing where we are all at today.

    And thanks for at least discussing our views, now matter how it all seems at first I'm always only too happy to share training memories, especially about stick and pole work. Are you?

  10. #70
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    This is me...

    My new signature, and a link to our site-in-progress
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?
    Id hope one would understand the Ying Yang relationship from the hand form which would then lead into the pole....despite the practical differences.

    But for me in a nutshell - one hand drives while the other steers.
    The relationship is important for me because if both hands are not used in unity and you dont understand the Ying Yang relationship you can stiffle your own actions.

    I.E The lead hand can block the energy both hands should be sending down then pole. etc

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...
    This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one.

    Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move.

    This relationship of the palms facing the pole, lines up your bodies power lines (similar to power lines in a punch) with the pole. A different direction of the palms with regard to the pole and you lessen and at certain angles loose the ability to move the pole tip IME.

    This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

    For me when putting the pole out if i have applied the right energy and the tip moves apon contact this creates many tiny hits (or at least more than one).

    I would make a piont that this is NOT due to using a pole made from light wood - our pole is a heavy hard wood, so training right in the Arrow horse and Dan Kwan drills early on is crucial to developing good power to put into the pole.

    This is why people with the same style as what ive been taught would refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the LDBK as machine gun - because of the mulitiple hits and power you can release with the pole.

    Crude analogy but it gets the point across IMO.

    DREW
    Last edited by Liddel; 11-07-2007 at 03:52 PM.
    Training is the pursuit of perfection - Fighting is settling for results - ME

    Thats not VT

    "This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to"- TOOL

    "I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would " - LoneTiger108

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liddel View Post
    This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one...

    Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move...

    ...This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

    DREW
    I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

    It's interesting to see how you interpret the Yum Yeurng hands, and its refreshing to see someone who obviously had this idea early on in their training. I also like the 'crude analogy', although I do think its a realistic one!

    Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.
    Thats cool mate, no harm no foul.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?
    Just after learning the form i was at the stage of applying actions to dummies, Yes.
    Shortly after was when i reluctantly gave it up in favour of the BJD.

    I used the Mook Jong we use for H2H training, using the same arms etc.....

    Sifu told me if i break it, i can have it.... LOL Its a mean Dummy, strong.

    I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
    Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

    Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

    One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour

    Im a bit gutted i couldnt continue with the LDB, but i do really enjoy the BJD...

    DREW
    Training is the pursuit of perfection - Fighting is settling for results - ME

    Thats not VT

    "This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to"- TOOL

    "I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would " - LoneTiger108

    Its good to be the King - http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liddel View Post
    I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
    Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....
    Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liddel View Post
    Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

    One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour
    Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew. Mind you, I still feel so young among these forums. Being new to all this discussion lark works better for me when I'm reading familiar experiences. I get too defensive sometimes but I'm always going to be a Wing Chun student.

    This forum must've seen some things over the years and I still want to contribute when I can, and about things I know and have seen for myself. I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

    I feel that open chat about the stick and pole is a less 'serious' exchange. Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.
    This one was hanging from the roof and you thrust the pole through it, as you get better with your aim - we would make it smaller down to about a few cm in diam...

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew.
    Ive seen you in some vids on Youtube (95% sure). While we have different applications with our VT, it seems the style of learning is quite similar. Perhaps it because of the way our teachers were taught TO teach ....

    Whats Lee Shings lineage exactly ?
    Ive seen some different explanations on different sites....

    I still havent asked my teacher about him. Theres not many old timers Sifu doesnt know


    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.
    Like i said functional with a traditional flavour... after learning the form and making the actions more second nature, we begin to do semi sparring drills against a pole etc. Then we began Chi Do training which is very much like soft sparring at first working up to harder contact. Intent is always the same, to hit the oppenent, unless isolating some aspect of application specifically.

    I made wooden Do from a hard wood with brass hook fixtures for contact training like Chi Do. Sifu is agaisnt using fake metal ones cuase the sound is supposed to only be heard when in actual combat...bit traditional in that respect.

    He once told me that he had some Do made from the suspension of a vehicle back in HK. He got rid of them after they had been used for a while.
    His idea is that even the hardest material after some 3000 hits will start to become soft and briitle. When you use a weapon for preserving life its better to be safe than sorry. So for the most part we spar with wood and do forms with metal for dexterity and strenght...extra weight etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...
    Sifu used to put some material on the tip of the pole when i would train the form and Dan Kwan. Its easier to see if your moving the tip enough with the material flapping when your energy reaches it....

    Is this what you used the flag for... or do you mean holding a flag itself ?

    Curious
    DREW
    Last edited by Liddel; 11-09-2007 at 02:52 PM.
    Training is the pursuit of perfection - Fighting is settling for results - ME

    Thats not VT

    "This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to"- TOOL

    "I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would " - LoneTiger108

    Its good to be the King - http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98

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