Miao Dao

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

Also, check out these 10 pages of Miao Dao variant number 1, a 2-handed saber form taught in China and dating from the early 17th century:

Warning: LARGE pics (So have a coffee break) and in Chinese only
http://miaodao.freewebspace.com/


The above form incorporates a lot of flowing, circular and sweeping moves and really exudes a lot of grace.


Its lineage is:

Founder: Shaolin Monk Cheng Zongyou (1561 - early 1600s?)
> Wu Shu (active : 1670s)
> Mr Yang (no name recorded, only surname is known; active: late 1800s ??)> Xie Jinfen (active: late 1800s - early 1900s)
> Liu Yuchun (active: 1920s-30s and instructor at the Nanking Central Martial Arts Academy)
> Guo Changsheng (active: 1920s-30s and instructor at the Nanking Central Martial Arts Academy)
> Guo Ruixiang (Guo Changsheng's son, still alive in his 70s)



There is a spin-off of this form, created by Guo Changsheng (mentioned above), which is a combination with Piguan Quan (Pigua Fists), and it's called the Miao Dao variant number 2, a Mainland Chinese official competition level form, which you can download the acrobat pdf files at:

http://chineseswords.freewebspace.co...ite_links.html

______________________________________________




Cheers
Thomas Chen

[Thomas Chen]

StumbleFist

Did you learn it from Taiwan's Adam Hsu's school, those Wu Tan clubs ?? They have a branch in California teaching Miao Dao as well. May I know who was your teacher and school, if it is not Adam Hsu's ??

Do let me know if you still cannot access my websites, which are hosted on servers based in the US.

You are right, I am wielding a 2-handed Chinese jian / gim, not a Miao Dao......

[Xebsball]

Very cool! Thanx

[Thomas Chen]

StumbleFist
I didn't know that you were in China; unfortunately, my websites and related server hosts are all inaccessible from there. Sorry.... But one could access it from HongKong though.

Hey, you didn't answer my last question Who was your Miao Dao teacher ??

[ffab@cyberkwoon.]

For those interested we are proposing in very small quantities [3 of each titles] Guo Ruixiang VCD on Pigua quan and Miao Dao

Check there @ cyberkwoon DVD & VCD store

OK, that is blatant CM but can fill a blank ;-)

[RAF]

Thomas Chen:

I learned the miao dao from Tony Yang (Xiao Dong) of Taipei, Taiwan. He, in turn, learned it from Adam Hsu. I was told Adam learned it from Han Qing Tang.

What I learned consisted of four basic training moves: Stationary cut down the middle, moving cut down the middle, stationary cut to the left , right side of neck (artery) and cut down the middle and same thing moving. From there we learned 4 moving lines part A and the 4 moving lines of the fight, Part B. There also is a two-man continously linked form, very fast and we use the bambo kendo sticks for that fight.

My teacher brought a box of wooden miao daos from Taiwan, purchased in the late 1970s. The handles are different from the Japanese bokken. The miao daos tend to cover the length of the forearm.

On another note that you might help me with (I've posted previously but no luck). I learned a taiji sword that came to Liu Yun Qiao from General Zhang Xiang Wu. Wu was stationed under General Li Jing Lin and I have found a citation in a translated piece from China that indicates General Li hired Song Wei Yi to teach the sword forms to his officers of which Wu was one.

Although the form is played continuously, it can be taught in 8 lines, Part A & B and many of the techniques are taught as two man exercises where each participant walks in a circle, touching swords and rotating swords (kinda of like a bagua push hands). The technique, say hui, is played out from the circle and then the other starts the circle and plays out the technique from the other side (there is no change in direction as you would find in a bagua sword form and it does not resemble anything from the bagua sword form I know, Cheng style)

Barbara Davis in her translation of Chen Weiming's (Yang Cheng Fu's disciple) taiji sword book, indicates that Li Jing Lin taught him the fighting part of the taiji sword (not clear whether Yang Cheng Fu had the two man exercises or the fighting side of his form) and the sword that Li Jing Lin played was indeed a taiji sword (adhered to the principles that Chen Weiming expressed in his taiji sword form).

Also where and when did the Yang shi taijiquan lineage receive its taiji sword. One story has it that Li Jing Lin traded his sword forms for Yang Ban Hou's taiji forms.

Any light cast upon this would be greatly appreciated as I am in the middle of writing an article on the taiji sword form taught by Liu Yun Qiao and have hit a dead end. Few of his formal students (actually none that I am aware of learned this sword form as Yang's taiji wasn't one of Liu's major systems) seemed to have had an interest in it.

Thanks.

[premier]

I can't make it work. The PDF pages are blank...


premier

[Thomas Chen]

Stumblefist:
I think you really like to "stumble" me. Isn't it a funny coincidence that your Miao Dao teacher is T. Chen or Tom Chen..... my namesake ??


RAF:
I have posted your questions to the Chinese swordsmanship section of swordforum.com; Scott Rodell (the moderator there) might be able to answer. Will get back to you over the next couple of days or you can check here for any replies:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...?threadid=4654

______________________________


Premier
Did you install the plugin ?? It is compulsory, if not the files will appear blank after downloading.

If you have installed the plugin, and afterwards click on the file links, the acrobat reader software will be activated and the downloading would start automatically. However, the acrobat reader screen would remain BLANK until the entire pdf file has been completely downloaded; the time required, of course, depends on the speed of your Internet connection. If you are not using cable or broadband but are using an ordinary 56K modem, this will take at least 25-30 mins for those 3.4 megabyte-size files.

Also, do note that the plugin works for only acrobat reader software version 4 or newer, so check your acrobat reader version number please.




Best regards
Thomas Chen

[RAF]

Thank you Tom.

However, I think I have run into a dead end.

Perhaps the reasonable question is where did the jian form and practice come into the Yang lineage?

Also holds for the Chen. too.

Somewhere I read that Chen Fake never practiced a jian form but only spear, staff, and dao.

[premier]

Yep. I have Acrobat 5.0 and the plugin and the files downloaded, but still only blank pages.


premier

[Crimson Phoenix]

Premier, maybe, just like me, you own a Mac (that is, you possess superior mind and class hehehehehe). Apparently, these PDF on the site do not work with Macs (I read a warning somewhere)...I don't know why, it's weird, my OS X uses PDF as a core foundation and still it doesn't work...I don't know what with these PDF on the site...

By the way, Thomas, can't you fix that? I mean...it must not be that hard to do, and lots of people are surfing on Macs...that would be just great :-)

RAF: Li Jing Ling was expert in Wudang sword...He was for example very famous for his Tai Yi wudang sword form, and one of the best swordmen in China (his nickname was "magic sword Li". He met Yang Chen Fu in a friendly bout once, and Yang in one move made him drop his sword just right after they squarred off. It means that Yang was already incredibly good at sword even before he came in contact with Li for the first time...hence, I doubt the sword of Yang Taiji comes from Li Jing Lin, or even from his teachers who also were skilled in Wudang sword, but no Taiji sword mentionned...
It doesn't answer the question, but I guess it rules out one possibility...

[Crimson Phoenix]

well, I thought this was not a mythical story...from what I thought, Li himself reported his surprise and admiration to the guys at Nanjing central kuoshu institute (I heard it from two sources, one coming from Han Ching Tang, the other one from Jiang Rong Qiao). It was Li's only recorded loss, and I was told the fact that Yang Cheng Fun, although a superb martial artist, was an ungentle social **** was the only reason why Li didn't want to mangle with him. From what I have been told also, this bout took place with many witnesses...
But since I wasn't there, who knows (I still heard it from a direct student of Jiang, who got all his wudang sword from Li himself)...there are so many mystifications in MA...

[RAF]

Crimson Phoenix

The story of Yang Cheng Fu and Li Jing Lin seems highly unlikely. Again, if you can get a copy of the Barbara Davis's translation of Chen Weiming, Taiji Sword, Chen tells the story of meeting Li Jing Lin and learning the fighting part from him. Chen Weiming had to be one of the closests associates of Yang Cheng Fu. If the event were true (losing in one shot), then it is highly unlikely Chen Weiming would even bother with Li Jing Lin. In fact, he would have recorded it in his taiji sword book (unless the event took place after 1928) Robert Smith flaunts the story around in his latest text but I don't think there is a credible source to back it up(but your references are very interesting). For the record, the Chinese wrestler Butterfly Deng also states he defeated Li Jing Lin in a friendly match. I believe it might have been Li Jing Lin who then taught Deng his taiji and I know that Li Jing Lin learned his taiji forms from one of the Yang Cheng Fu's older brothers (this was told to me in a correspondence with someone associated with the Li family) That is where I speculate the introduction of the jian was made into the Yang lineage.

Zhang Xiang Wu (officer/warlord under Li Jing Lin and also a disciple of Li Shu Wen, baji taught us our taiji sword and taiji forms. Our taiji dao isn't really a form but sets of fighting lines) was listed as a Vice-President to the Nanjing Central Kuosho Institute. Although it was my understanding that they only used his name. Wu's reputation for taiji was well in place before the formation of the Nanjing Institute and we know it did not arise from the Yang Cheng Fu lineage. We have no records or mention of him ever meeting Yang Cheng Fu. I also wonder if there is some sort of rivalry between Yang Cheng Fu lineage and Li Jing Lin's taiji lineage.

An old issue of the journal of Chen style Taijiquan had a translated article stating that the taiji sword most likely came from the kun wu sword techniques, san cai jian, and possibly the wudang sword.

However, I never have encountered any stories about Yang Lu Chan or others having a jian skill or system. It seems only to arise with the generation of Yang Cheng Fu (even his uncles whom I speculate learned form Li Jing Lin do not seem to have any jian sword associated with them).

Thanks for answering and I'll keep the story tucked. If you looked at the age when Li Jing Lin met Chen Weiming, its very close to time of Li Jing Lin's death (1928 Chen Weiming wrote it in his book. Yang Cheng Fu's death was in 1936, 8 years later. Li Jing Lin died in 1931. So the event had to take place between 1928 and 1931. I seem to have read one of Smith's stories in the JAMA that in his later years, Yang Cheng Fu was even doing any public teaching and most teaching was carried out by disciples while Yang Cheng Fu stayed indoors, occassionally checking them. Was the Nanjing institute still in operation?).

But thanks again. I would like to hear from the anyone associated with Li Jing Lin's family (I believe they are in England).

[RAF]

Crimson Phoenix:

Another interesting point I found in Davis's booK:

Li Jing Lin arrives in Shanghai in 1927 and serves as assistant director to the Institute. Also writes an insription for Chen Weiming for his book, Questions and Answers on Taijiquan. The original book was published in 1929. In the English translation, by Ben Lo and Robert Smith there is not mention or illustration of that inscription.

Also page ix:

"In regard to sword fencing, there is no information about it in Taiji Sword. Chen only makes brief mention of fencing in his preface, saying that Yang Cheng Fu did not teach a specific fencing routine, and that when he (Chen) knew fencing better, he would write another book."

To me that doesn't mean Yang Cheng Fu couldn't fence or teach the techniques, its just that every traditional form in fencing that I know or have been exposed to (san cai jian, kun wu sword, my taiji sword form, bagua sword) has a part B fighting form to follow the part A.

In her second footnote, Davis also indicates:

"There is little historical information about Taiji sword practice. The Taijiquan Classics handed down in the Yang lineage, for example, make no mention of any weapons (Lo et al. Essence) and the Wu-Li-Hao lineage of the Classics only mention knife (dao) and staff. (Gu, TJQS, p. 372).

I find the whole history of the Yang's taiji sword both interesting and frustrating.

[Thomas Chen]

Hi All

His name is Guo Ruixiang, and in my opinion, this man is the foremost Miao Dao expert in mainland China. Check out his moves:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=24935