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Thread: Beginner form syllabus for Northern Mantis systems

  1. #1
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    Beginner form syllabus for Northern Mantis systems

    Hey,

    I was wondering for the individual and various styles and lineages what beginner forms syllabus do each utilize?

    For instance in the 7 Star Praying Mantis system that I study we have the 9 beginner sets that utilize important concepts and provide the base skills for the beginning practitioner.

    The 9 beginner sets:

    Tan Tui (tan toy)
    Tui Jin
    Gune Lik Kuen (gong li quan)
    Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy (shi su lu tan tui)
    Bong bou (beng bu)
    Chap Choy (cha chui)
    Sap Pa Sau (shi ba shou)
    Dore Guan (dou gang)
    Ha Fu Ga Chau (hei hu jiao cha)

    Which each represent a specific concept of use for developing the base level gong fu.

    and beginner weapon sets:
    Ng lung guan
    Bagua dao
    Double broadsword, etc...


    Thanks for any input.

  2. #2
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    I'm not positive where Beginner ends and "Intermediate" picks up but from what I can tell at our school, these are beginner level (I will use your spelling of the form names):

    Tan Tui
    Tui Jin
    Gune Lik Kuen
    Chap Choy
    Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy

    I would think Bung Bo, Jeet Kuen, Dau Gong, Sap Baht Sao, etc would be "Intermediate" level.

  3. #3
    ... and then after a whole bunch of years you take a closer look at Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy and your realize "my gosh- the man was a genius!"

  4. #4
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    I would add one more basic form...

    Tong Long Baht Bouh Kuen is a form that must be taught first before these others.
    It is aka the long work form or Work Horse Form.
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    Last edited by seung ga faat; 04-29-2011 at 01:34 AM.

  5. #5
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    actually its hard for me to understand the exact meaning without the chinese characters but doesnt that translate as praying mantis 8 step fist?
    can you elaborate more about it if possible?

    thanks

  6. #6
    tang - praying
    lang- mantis
    ba- 8
    bu- step
    chuan-fist

    kuen means form... there are southern mantis styles that speak cantonese while northern speak mandarin with less of an "owu" sounds in thier dielect hope this helps, wlecome to the mantis family
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  7. #7
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    Thanks Earth dragon,
    Actually I speak Mando and a decent level of Canto.
    It makes a lot more sense to me with characters but your explanantion helps.
    On a side note there are some northern systems that use Canto terminology due to Hong Kong migration. For instance certain families of WHF and CCM utilize Canto as well.

    Thanks for the welcome, and great info.

  8. #8
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    Hey mightyb,

    I agree there's so many essentials in sap sei lo tan toy. Its like the base of a mountain is what it reminds me of. However not my favorite form to practice (sometimes a little boring) but I have tremendous respect for the level of knowledge obtained through the understanding of sap sei lo tan toy.

  9. #9
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    Just wanted to share some of the info my Sifu made me aware of.

    Sifu says that the 1st 9 beginner sets can all be divided in "Yao" and "Gong" sequence formats.

    each one besides representing hard and soft also represent specific concepts of different parts of the body and attributes that are cultivated.

    so the way Sifu divided the sets were as:

    Tan Toy (gong)
    Gune Lik Kuen (gong)
    Sap Sei Lo (gong)
    Tui Jin (yao)
    Beng Bu (gong-yao)
    Chap Choy (gong)
    Dou Gang (yao)
    Sap Ba Sau (yao)
    Ha Fu Ga Chau (yao)

    well atleast i found it interesting, so just wanted to share.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tensei85 View Post
    Hey mightyb,

    I agree there's so many essentials in sap sei lo tan toy. Its like the base of a mountain is what it reminds me of. However not my favorite form to practice (sometimes a little boring) but I have tremendous respect for the level of knowledge obtained through the understanding of sap sei lo tan toy.
    I hated doing it until I realized that sap sei lo basically was the key to fighting with mantis. Learned this through cross-training in Judo. It doesn't cover everything- like I can't figure out why it doesn't have this key combo (spelling phonetically) Tai sa na ding - yi ming chit don - ha fu gou cha (Tai mountain crashes - punch straight to the face - steal the heart).

    In my opinion- a person should learn sap sei lo, then applications, then spar - rinse, lather, repeat for three years. Throughout that time they should be introduced to some new offensive and defensive combinations, but no new forms. After about 3 years of that- then start showing forms (cause they'll have applications and sparring down) and then the forms will actually mean something to them.

  11. #11
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    Hey mightyb,
    I can definitely appreciate the logic flow of your opinion.
    Actually I haven't thought about it that way, but you make a good point however I would add just like you said a few keywords are missing for instance what you listed as well as the concept of seung kua. So to me based on an external side I would say sap sei lo is (#1) by far but on more of an internal side it seems to be lacking in a few areas. I guess thats why Sifu labeled it as a "gong" form. Thanks for the concepts you provided.

  12. #12
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    After further consideration I would have to say that Sap Sei Lo may have a basic intrepretation of Seung Kua from the Chat Sing Bou at the beginning sequence of each road seems to denote a basic concept of seung kua. I still wonder why each road is in the specific sequence that it is. It seems like there must be some type of logic flow behind it.

  13. #13

    My Opinion --

    IMO-

    I think there's too much emphasis on "tea drinking" kung fu in Mantis. I derive this from reading the forum and talking to people. What I mean is- take what we're talking about now and look at Mantis methodology and theory. Sub Sa Lo isn't really a form- it's a series of techniques that are linked- very much like basic warmups... Mantis practitioners like to over think everything- IMO most of the theory and concepts make very interesting topics for discussion when we're "drinking tea" after class, but they confuse students who are trying to learn kung fu. We get very into concepts, translations, and theories...

    Regarding Hard and Soft- The most poignant insight I've learned from Sifu is "Yao Yi Gong" - or the concept of using Soft to defeat the Hard... but... really what that means is to relax through the technique- this is a universal truth in all martial arts- you can respond to an attack with force on force, redirection, or yielding. All are valid- but redirection and yielding are high level and have to be worked on constantly. This is truly what Hard and Soft mean. The forms themselves won't and can't teach you to relax in a confrontation. My idea behind starting with Sub Sa Lo- applications- and controlled sparring is to start right away with a technique based approach. Then you actually learn the 8 hard and 12 soft techniques as techniques- not concepts (other very successful MA styles teach this way). Then they aren't vague concepts- they are valid responses to a situation that leads me to the 2nd most important thing you can learn from studying 7*--- that is learning how to occupy and control space. I'm talking about dominating another persons comfort zone and balance. This is somewhat summarized with the phrase "so fot, bo fot, sun yin" hand techniques, foot work, body positioning.

    I think then after you learn and internalize the above- you start on your journey of learning forms- and they will mean more to you.

    Ok- gotta work- but I do have a lot more to say on this issue- so fire away.

  14. #14
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    Wow! Holy crap, I just gained so much useful insight from your last post!
    Actually I have a few things to do as well, but I have a lot more questions and ideas to add and ask.
    Thanks in advance.

  15. #15
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    Questions......

    So what are these important concepts relating to each of the set? What is the concept of Ha Fu or Gung Li Keun

    Why Ng Long Kwun and Bagua Dao?

    Each teacher will teach forms order slightly different....if I did not have a syllaabus from my teacher I would teach them in a very different order. Also I have seen changes in the order taught eaven by the same family!

    Also Which family has tong long Baat Bouh Kuen? I have not seen it in LKW family listing.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk

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