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Thread: Beginner form syllabus for Northern Mantis systems

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T England View Post
    So what are these important concepts relating to each of the set? What is the concept of Ha Fu or Gung Li Keun

    Why Ng Long Kwun and Bagua Dao?

    Each teacher will teach forms order slightly different....if I did not have a syllaabus from my teacher I would teach them in a very different order. Also I have seen changes in the order taught eaven by the same family!

    Also Which family has tong long Baat Bouh Kuen? I have not seen it in LKW family listing.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk
    Again- just my opinion, but- that's why I say none of this is important at the beginner level. It's just too darn confusing. You can literally teach all of the techniques and concepts through drilling and sparring without actually telling the students those concepts. I'd wait for them to internalize without knowing they internalized them before I would get into any deep philosophical discussions about key words and theory. Heck- if they can pull off a nou lou choi, tu sou, yin min chit don, ha fu gou cha, foom sau, bung choi, to a yu jom (phonetic spelling of what I think Sifu's saying in Cantonese - but I don't hear the tonal connotations too well though) combo through natural reaction- they would've effectively displayed just about every philosophical concept in mantis. When they can do that- that's the time to start debating theory. Otherwise it's just a bunch-o-gobbly gook that will hinder their progress, not help it.

    The above combo English-ized: bad guy throughs a straight punch- you do the hook control punch (choi som sau) they block, you follow with an intercepting hand and punch straight to their face, they block so you drop to a heart stealing strike, they block again, so you (foom sau bung choi) overhand control back fist, they block- so you do the waist chopping strike/take down. Pretty much covers every darn concept except no Fan Che in that combo.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Michigan
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    229
    I would have to agree with Mightyb's opinion.
    But given its the internet and really the only thing we can talk about is the concepts or experiences.
    And plus I'm a Univ. Student so I spend most of my time obsessing about concepts and logic flow... (lol, not much of a life)

    So for me the forms in themselves represent the concepts for instance not only are there underlying concepts but their are surface layer concepts as well.

    1st. the name themselves represent a concept.

    Sap yi lo tan toy (12 roads spring leg) Builds a strong core with reactive kicks (not stringent)
    Gune lik kuen (Flow Power Fist) or sometimes "Power boxing" etc...
    Sap sei lo tan toy (14 roads spring leg) Showcases the concepts and the mechanics of mantis boxing
    Beng bu (Crush step)(Burst step)
    Chap choy (Thrusting Hammer) Teaches how to issue power from a vertical position.
    Dou gang (avoid force-parry) as the name implies teaches the student how to avoid force from a parrying position. Instead of the "force against force" complex
    Sap ba sau (18 elders) teaches the student how to issue "Jing" from a soft approach utilizing the Chat Sing Bou.
    Ha Fu Ga Chao (black tiger cross) As Mightyb gave descriptive details.

    What was stated above represents the surface layer concepts and "body methods" (Sun Faat)

    Then we have the concepts that each mantis system will utilize in training (for instance some families will pay more attention to certain sequences or body mechanics) some may use the fa jing concept while other pay more attention to the seung kua concept, etc... then the "12 keyword principles" are of vital importance as well.

    Instead of re listing what many have already posted, I'll just post a link to a discussion thread. http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum...php?t-218.html
    Last edited by Tensei85; 05-02-2009 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #18

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tensei85 View Post
    I would have to agree with Mightyb's opinion.
    But given its the internet and really the only thing we can talk about is the concepts or experiences.
    And plus I'm a Univ. Student so I spend most of my time obsessing about concepts and logic flow... (lol, not much of a life)

    So for me the forms in themselves represent the concepts for instance not only are there underlying concepts but their are surface layer concepts as well.

    1st. the name themselves represent a concept.

    Sap yi lo tan toy (12 roads spring leg) Builds a strong core with reactive kicks (not stringent)
    Gune lik kuen (Flow Power Fist) or sometimes "Power boxing" etc...
    Sap sei lo tan toy (14 roads spring leg) Showcases the concepts of the mechanics of mantis boxing
    Beng bu (Crush step)(Burst step)
    Chap choy (Thrusting Hammer) Teaches how to issue power from a vertical position.
    Dou gang (avoid force-parry) as the name implies teaches the student how to avoid force from a parrying position. Instead of the "force against force" complex
    Sap ba sau (18 elders) teaches the student how to issue "Jing" from a soft approach utilizing the Chat Sing Bou.
    Ha Fu Ga Chao (black tiger cross) As Mightyb gave descriptive details.

    What was stated above represents the surface layer concepts and "body methods" (Sun Faat)

    Then we have the concepts that each mantis system will utilize in training (for instance some families will pay more attention to certain sequences or body mechanics) some may use the fa jing concept while other pay more attention to the seung kua concept, etc... then the "12 keyword principles" are of vital importance as well.

    Instead of re listing what many have already posted, I'll just post a link to a discussion thread. http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum...php?t-218.html
    What's funny is that most of my favorite forms are on this list - "basic" doesn't equal "low level". The ones I probably use the most for self analysis and introspection into technique are Sub Sa Lo and Sap ba sau (I've been thinking way more "death gate" lately). Plus I think Chap Choy feels good. My other more advanced favs are Tong Long Chit Don and Siu Fu Yin ( sp? ) Those are pretty much all the forms I practice anymore.

    I can find something I like from about every form--- but I only have so much time in a day

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    229
    I agree,
    Its actually kinda funny but I have more difficulties sometimes practicing forms like Dou Gang then I do Sern Bei Sau! So beginner definitely doesn't equate to low level.

    On a side note at this moment I would have to say Bai Yuen Tuo Tao (Bak Yun Tao Tou) is my favorite form to practice, its short and sweet but straight to the point...

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    washington,dc.
    Posts
    170

    Baht Bouh Kuen

    This form is from the LKY, CCM, Chiu Luen Lineage. The late Sifu Chiu stop teaching this form to His Disciples in the late seventies. It consists of the leg work, bodywork, kicking and hand manuevers, as well as animals and ground boxing found in our clan of 7-Star. It is a comprehensive form which prepares the student form the ground up.
    ________
    marijuana test
    ________
    SUZUKI GS SERIES HISTORY
    Last edited by seung ga faat; 04-29-2011 at 01:34 AM.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Tainan Taiwan
    Posts
    1,864

    The Most Basic of the Basic

    The basic forms we learn corrospond to the 14 roads of Mantis Created by Luo Guang Yu for those in that lineage.

    8 Step has their own 8 roads and we also have 8 roads.

    I just wrote an article with pics showing our second road, which some of you may find familiar, especially if you have trained in Plum Flower Mantis.

    http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.co...he%20peach.htm

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Shanghai
    Posts
    67
    For people out there running a commercial school then maybe it makes sense to establish some “beginner” forms. By that I mean something just a little easier for the student to do. Mantis forms are not easy – especially for someone who has never done MA.

    Forms like Gong Li Quan 12 Lu Tan Tui are not Praying Mantis. I am sure everyone is clear on that.

    For our school (although not commercial by any means) our teacher Kai Uwe Pel teaches Beng Bu Quan, Shi Ba Shou and Duo Gang. These are considered core and most important to our Seven Star system, so they are taught first. Forms are just a small part of our training, but he progressively teaches more peripheral forms throughout the training process.

    Rgds,
    N

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